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Alpha Mail: Caddy's 3 Series rival is go

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Anyone else find it humorous that for so long, smaller Caddies were flops (Cimmaron, Catera), then the CTS came along, and now the smaller ones are the best styled & best sellers, if not the best all-around? Looking forward to seeing how this Caddy turns out. :)

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ps. Isn't the CTS already a 3er competitor? That's how I would place it...

CTS has moved up a bit in price.

A comparably-equipped 3-Series is now less MSRP than CTS (loaded CTSs top $50K now)......and when you factor in our crappy leases, alot less expensive to lease.

I think there's plenty of room for an Alpha Cadillac.....say sized around the 3-Series, but priced like a 1-series......

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This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

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Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

I'm surprised...I had assumed Alpha would get cancelled and GM would do something predictable like a Delta or Epsilon II based small Caddy..

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And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series

Why?

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This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

You realize a good part of the 5-series price premium is exchange rate.....

no.... I thought you didn't.

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Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

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The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

NO!

In fact, the alpha Buick should go to Pontiac instead. WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

Moronic.

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Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

One of everything? I've heard talk that Chevy may get more than just one Alpha.....

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Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

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I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

Yes, esp. since they are going to be in the same showroom.. a sporty compact RWD model for Pontiac makes more sense than a RWD entry lux model for Buick.

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The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

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No one should get an Alpha besides Cadillac. There isn't a heavily rebated, 40% rental car volume brand using 3-series platforms. If this car is supposed to compete with a 3-series, it should be $33-49,00 and $62,000 for a V-series.

A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price. BMWs don't cost more than Cadillac's and the E-class doesn't start at $53,000 because of exchange rates. They cost that much because the materials used are more expensive and the engineering is more intense. Plus, those brands can command a premium because of reputation, people are willing to pay $50k for a compact car because it's "the ultimate driving machine."

Cadillac should be trying to out do them, not get 80 or 90% of the way there and figure they'll just have a $5k lower MSRP then add an employee discount to it to move metal.

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A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price.

Invalid. The X5, X6, and Z4 come from S. Carolina... The 3-series is not built in the US.

Edited by moltar

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Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

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A CTS is $15K cheaper than a comparable 5-series. That money buys a lot of extra refinement, expensive materials (more aluminum e.g.) to cut weight and more technology. GM can't compete long term without substantially increasing the CTS' price. It is slowly doing that, but exchange rate moves have forced BMW to do likewise.

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

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The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

I don't want to be too much of a purist, but a RWD Riviera just seems...very odd.

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

This is why GM is so fracking retarded: they do not yet understand that vehicles with price differentials of $20K DO NOT COMPETE! Being a "value leader" is nothing more than putting a "RENT ME!" sticker on a car. Who cross-shops the SLR and XLR? Those two vehicles actually are in the same segment...yet here's Cadillac stressing about a RWD Pontiac stealing its thunder. HELLO? Cadillac? Where was all the outrage in the 90s when you could get an OldsmoBuiCadillac Sedan d'Aurora Avenue?

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Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon :huh:

Not all of us are willing to spend 40K for a wagon. This is the main reason that my 9-3 will probably be my LAST GM product. I have been buying GM exclusively for the last 20 years and it amazes the mindset of GM management.

My wish list for what it is worth:

Pontiac - affordable (notice I did not say cheap) performance vehicles:

Alpha sedan, coupe, and wagon similar to the Tourana (sp?) concept

Kappa or next gen based 2 seater

Next gen G8 equivalent

3 platforms (unless the kappa moves to an alpha based platform), and 6 models. This fills the need for most people looking for sporty cars.

Cadillac - Premium cars

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Chevy Cruze, Pontiac G5, Saturn Astra, and Saab 9-3.... so I guess the answer is... "yes".

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I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

I am surprised nobody else mentioned this.

Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon :huh:

I would. Look if I am going out to buy a sports wagon I want RWD, nice interior, good looks w/ good practicality. I don't shop based upon a dollar amount up. I shop a dollar amount down. If I can afford $50k but can get 80% of the looks, features, and practicality for $30k why should I spend the difference?

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Chevy Cruze, Pontiac G5, Saturn Astra, and Saab 9-3.... so I guess the answer is... "yes".

Note: The question was "Do they need 4 Deltas?"

The answer is simply: No. The Chevy, Saturn & Pontiac are redundant. The Saab a waste of precious resources.

None of this has stopped GM before, however. The 'good' news is that Lehman & AIG's misadventures have knocked GM off the front pages of the b-sections.

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Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

Why does Caddy care? Exactly how badly can Pontiac hurt Caddy if Pontiac only exists in GMNA and Caddy is global?

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I don't want to be too much of a purist, but a RWD Riviera just seems...very odd.

Why? The best Rivieras were RWD...

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

Yes, but remember, GM's brands consider each other competition.... I can't see them cross-shopped either, different target demographics..

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Why? The best Rivieras were RWD...

Yes, but remember, GM's brands consider each other competition.... I can't see them cross-shopped either, different target demographics..

The most popular ones were FWD.

What Riviera sold better than the 79-85 Generation?

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I am surprised nobody else mentioned this.

I would. Look if I am going out to buy a sports wagon I want RWD, nice interior, good looks w/ good practicality. I don't shop based upon a dollar amount up. I shop a dollar amount down. If I can afford $50k but can get 80% of the looks, features, and practicality for $30k why should I spend the difference?

But where does it stop...

BMW 5 series / CTS or CTS /G8... beyond performance numbers and features, people look at appearance and the badges (status symbol). While the CTS is VERY nice looking and I could afford it, I would rather have the G8.

Some people would choose the BMW over the CTS and some would choose the CTS over the G8. We (the consumers) should have the choice, not building the right vehicle makes the choice for the consumer.

Just my .02

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NO!

In fact, the alpha Buick should go to Pontiac instead. WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

Moronic.

+1

(Unless Zeta is going to be phased out in China as well)

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A CTS is $15K cheaper than a comparable 5-series. That money buys a lot of extra refinement, expensive materials (more aluminum e.g.) to cut weight and more technology. GM can't compete long term without substantially increasing the CTS' price. It is slowly doing that, but exchange rate moves have forced BMW to do likewise.

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

Badge it as a Pontiac in NA and a Buick in China...

Same sales channel right?

(AS I predicted the other day) I guess Cadillac doesn't want the heat from Pontiac, since Cadillac can't command the right premium for it's cars.

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!
Good point.

Add to that the fact that Chevrolet is supposedly getting both an Alpha sedan and Camro and it makes even less sense. If Cadillac thought Pontiac was going to eat there lunch, just wait and see what 'heritage' inspired chevrolet models do to them. Not to mention, Buick is getting a model as well which is even closer to competing with them.

Sounds like political :bs: to me. Some faction in GM wants Pontiac to die... Plain and simple.

GM's brands consider each other competition

Anyone who is this stuck in the past should be fired on the spot. (PCS included)

As usual, GM's logic is more F888ed up than a meth head on speed. Let us PRAY that GM has not made the ignorant choice of giving Buick an Alpha model in favor of Pontiac.

Besides, same company, same money from the sales, same bank account.

If GM can't control it's infighting better than this, the company will not see another 20 years, much less 100.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

The CTS is $10-15k more expensive than a G8, how is that competition? Some people might go down from the Cadillac to the Pontiac, but GM would get many more sales from people who can't afford the CTS. CTS also offers AWD.

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Now why would you want to fire me?

As a loyal German GME soldier, I can honestly say, "I was only following orders!". :AH-HA_wink:

Perhaps you should have thought about what orders were given before you performed them, to insure they made sense (ie your boss was not intoxicated)?

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Perhaps you should have thought about what orders were given before you performed them, to insure they made sense (ie your boss was not intoxicated)?

They make sense, just not to you yet.

Saturn/Saab has Opel. Buick has China, Chevy is a world brand and needs no help. Cadillac, worldwide luxury brand. GMC has Chevy. Pontiac was going to be paired up with Holden, but in this economic/gasoline/green climate that idea is dead, so Pontiac and Holden are in freefall. Pontiac is an American brand only, that's bad, and Holden is losing a huge portion of their staff either through transfers or being laid off, and Holden's projects are being moved to other GM centers. Is the writing on the wall for Pontiac and Holden? That remains to be seen, but it's not looking good.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S

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They make sense, just not to you yet.

Saturn/Saab has Opel. Buick has China, Chevy is a world brand and needs no help. Cadillac, worldwide luxury brand. GMC has Chevy. Pontiac was going to be paired up with Holden, but in this economic/gasoline/green climate that idea is dead, so Pontiac and Holden are in freefall. Pontiac is an American brand only, that's bad, and Holden is losing a huge portion of their staff either through transfers or being laid off, and Holden's projects are being moved to other GM centers. Is the writing on the wall for Pontiac and Holden? That remains to be seen, but it's not looking good.

If things actually go that way, I guess I'll just have to buy my last GM car and remember when I cared.

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The Alpha platform BELONGS under an array of Pontiacs. It is sized right for the times, it is RWD, and it is affordable. It would absolutely REVITALIZE the entire Pontiac brand and propel them well into the future. Coupe, sedan, convertible, wagon... what could be a more perfect fit for Pontiac? All four bodystyles to sell more of the platform... all at Pontiac. Seems such a NO BRAINER. How stupid can GM management be? The Alpha platform does NOT fit Buick at all. An Alpha Buick would be way too close to Cadillac's version... yet "Cadillac" has no problem with it? BULL!

Cadillac sedan/hardtop convertible/wagon

Pontiac coupe/sedan/cloth top convertible/wagon

Chevrolet coupe

That's what GMNA's Alpha lineup needs to be... it's a natural, instinctive lineup... nothing forced, everything FITS.

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Cadillac sedan/hardtop convertible/wagon

Pontiac coupe/sedan/cloth top convertible/wagon

Chevrolet coupe

That's what GMNA's Alpha lineup needs to be... it's a natural, instinctive lineup... nothing forced, everything FITS.[/b]

Some people can be so blinded by loyalty that they can't see what is plainly to many models.

Try this on for size:

Caddy: Sedan, Wagon

Buick: Sedan

Pontiac: Coupe

Opel/Saturn: Wagon

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Some people can be so blinded by loyalty that they can't see what is plainly to many models.

Try this on for size:

Caddy: Sedan, Wagon

Buick: Sedan

Pontiac: Coupe

Opel/Saturn: Wagon

Caddy needs a coupe and convertible to be competitive w/ the 1 and 3 series, though, as well as the IS and G37 (both of which have convertibles coming).

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91z: Alpha doesn't fit with Buick or Saturn. And Chevy needs it for the next Camaro. Pontiac should have it spread over its lineup the widest, as the platform fits perfectly with Pontiac's natural mission.

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91z: Alpha doesn't fit with Buick or Saturn. And Chevy needs it for the next Camaro. Pontiac should have it spread over its lineup the widest, as the platform fits perfectly with Pontiac's natural mission.

From what I see internally, it looks like Mission Over to me!

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You lie. CPF swings something in front of your face and you get verrrry sleepy, next thing you know you awake under his desk and wonder how you got there. Edited by ocnblu

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From what I see internally, it looks like Mission Over to me!

Internally?

Sounds like some surgery is in order - there is a cancer to remove in there.

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You lie. Carl-Pecker swings something in front of your face and you get verrrry sleepy, next thing you know you awake under his desk and wonder how you got there.

Oh no, I work for him willingly. No need to be hypnotized! :neenerneener:

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91z: Alpha doesn't fit with Buick or Saturn. And Chevy needs it for the next Camaro. Pontiac should have it spread over its lineup the widest, as the platform fits perfectly with Pontiac's natural mission.

Unfortunately, Pontiac has drifted from any natural mission...the G8 and Solstice are the only models they have of significance, the rest of the line fullfills the current (and future, apparently) mission of providing cheap, sporty FWD rental cars.

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It doesn't have to be that way. The platform is coming, it's not like it has to be dedicated to Pontiac only.

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Pontiac really ought to be an oasis of cool in the desert of blandmobiles.

The one brand that doesn't play by the rules.

I don't think that is asking too much.

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Pontiac really ought to be an oasis of cool in the desert of blandmobiles.

The one brand that doesn't play by the rules.

I don't think that is asking too much.

Yeah, sadly, that doesn't seem to fit with GM's mantra of all FWD generics, all the time (except for Cadillac and the Camaro and Corvette). GM is going back to the way it was in the late '90s, I think... all brands with many lines of overlapping FWD blandmobiles.

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I really like the idea of Pontiac as the "F-you" brand, the bad boy, in-your-face, politically incorrect, traditional American style brand.

We desperately need that somewhere, what better place than Pontiac?

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The CTS is $10-15k more expensive than a G8, how is that competition? Some people might go down from the Cadillac to the Pontiac, but GM would get many more sales from people who can't afford the CTS. CTS also offers AWD.

Agreed...

I can't afford a Cadillac Alpha, but I would certainly be in the running for a Pontiac Alpha.

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As a loyal German GME soldier, I can honestly say, "I was only following orders!". :AH-HA_wink:

Isn't that the same mindset that made GM complacent in the first place? Old skool GM think from the 'old world' I suppose?

Status Quo. Nothing more, nothing less.

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They make sense, just not to you yet.

Saturn/Saab has Opel. Buick has China, Chevy is a world brand and needs no help. Cadillac, worldwide luxury brand. GMC has Chevy. Pontiac was going to be paired up with Holden, but in this economic/gasoline/green climate that idea is dead, so Pontiac and Holden are in freefall. Pontiac is an American brand only, that's bad, and Holden is losing a huge portion of their staff either through transfers or being laid off, and Holden's projects are being moved to other GM centers. Is the writing on the wall for Pontiac and Holden? That remains to be seen, but it's not looking good.

So... Why can't Holden and Pontiac operate as Vauxhall does?

Take cars/architecture from other divisions, restyle it and call it a day.

If Vauxhall can exist, then so too should Pontiac and Holden.

Pontiac worries me, but I really don't see Holden going anywhere. Will they be a leader in development like with Zeta? Probably not... But they'll still need products for their market and they'll either have to develop them alone (like back in the 90s) or team with someone. You can't just phase out Holden. In fact, I'd say there would be less outrage if Pontiac were phased out.

And the other part of this argument is; aren't Buick and Pontiac essentially one division? Couldn't they share architectures/platforms universally under each name? Holden pretty much is Buick in China FWIW. So why not tie up Holden, Buick AND Pontiac if the divisions are to be as "focused" as GM foretold?

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM

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Some people can be so blinded by loyalty that they can't see what is plainly to many models.

Try this on for size:

Caddy: Sedan, Wagon

Buick: Sedan

Pontiac: Coupe

Opel/Saturn: Wagon

TAKE 3: :D

Cadillac: Sedan & Coupe

Pontiac: Sedan and LIMITED volume coupe (as a halo)

Chevrolet: Coupe

The volume sedan comes from Pontiac and saves their ass, the volume coupe comes from Chevrolet, the Cadys are just iicing on the cake with big margins and the Pontiac coupe is a bone thrown to the true enthusiasts. Well shall call it GTO and it shall have a tweaked V8. And it shall have almost as high of a margin as the Caddys (Yes, the loyalists like myself and Camino would STILL buy it)

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Unfortunately, Pontiac has drifted from any natural mission...the G8 and Solstice are the only models they have of significance, the rest of the line fullfills the current (and future, apparently) mission of providing cheap, sporty FWD rental cars.

It is funny that you say that because lets be serious the Solstice and G8 have no significance in sales and really that is what matters. The G6 is taking off and being as it has been unchanged since it went on the market what 4 years ago. That right there is as good of a reason to stick w/ Epsilon for the next G6 and not switch to Alpha, which surely everyone can admit will have lower sales than an equivalent FWD Epsilon model.

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Pontiac really ought to be an oasis of cool in the desert of blandmobiles.

The one brand that doesn't play by the rules.

I don't think that is asking too much.

I know... The brand has the potential to be the next Scion or Mini...

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I know... The brand has the potential to be the next Scion or Mini...

Actually, that would be fine by me. Well, it'd be tough to do a Mini, since Mini has alot of it's own heritage to feed off of. But a Scion has lots of potential I think. Of course, GM would need focus Pontiac that way - and I mean for longer than say 6 months. .

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It is funny that you say that because lets be serious the Solstice and G8 have no significance in sales and really that is what matters. The G6 is taking off and being as it has been unchanged since it went on the market what 4 years ago. That right there is as good of a reason to stick w/ Epsilon for the next G6 and not switch to Alpha, which surely everyone can admit will have lower sales than an equivalent FWD Epsilon model.

Follow that logic and this is the message GM will be sending to me: " Despite the fact that you are a loyal repeat customer, we don't want to sell any more cars to you".

Besides, how many FWD Epsilons do they need?

Two is enough AFAIC.

One need not be a Pontiac, especially with Buick in the same showroom.

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Actually, that would be fine by me. Well, it'd be tough to do a Mini, since Mini has alot of it's own heritage to feed off of. But a Scion has lots of potential I think. Of course, GM would need focus Pontiac that way - and I mean for longer than say 6 months. .

GM just needs to actually focus Pontiac rather than talking about focusing like they've been doing for decades now.

Talk about indecision!

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It is funny that you say that because lets be serious the Solstice and G8 have no significance in sales and really that is what matters. The G6 is taking off and being as it has been unchanged since it went on the market what 4 years ago. That right there is as good of a reason to stick w/ Epsilon for the next G6 and not switch to Alpha, which surely everyone can admit will have lower sales than an equivalent FWD Epsilon model.

Just showing my RWD bias, I guess...I couldn't care less for FWD..

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Just build it I say, a good product will sell itself quite well with word of mouth. :)

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Besides children under 7, where are all these tiny people who are going to fit into the back door of this car? In the sketch, it is scarely bigger than the grill, if the grill was turned 90 degrees.

Edited by SAmadei

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NO!

WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

No GM does not need 4 Delta II's running about.

I used to drive a j-body Buick (go ahead and laugh) but if there was a greatly styled small, rear drive Buick (better than the upcoming LaCrosse or similar to) and maybe available with a manual transmission and of course a great interior, then I would totally go for it.

If GM sort of wants Buick to be like Lexus, it could be their IS.

However, Pontiac is the one that would actually deserve such a car over Buick, so let it be that way.

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Your attitude stinks, Borger. It stinks like bratwurst left out in the sun for like 3 days.

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Just two words for Pontiac, and they are TICK TOCK! :AH-HA_wink:

In that case GM is doomed by their own foolishness and it will be tick-tock for the whole shebang soon enough.

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In that case GM is doomed by their own foolishness and it will be tick-tock for the whole shebang soon enough.

Add - Despite of the $25 B

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In that case GM is doomed by their own foolishness and it will be tick-tock for the whole shebang soon enough.

It already is TICK TOCK for the whole shebang IMO.

Forget about saving Pontiac (If GM continues to be this inept) the corporation as we know it will be gone within 10 years.

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Now why would you want to fire me?

As a loyal German GME soldier, I can honestly say, "I was only following orders!". :AH-HA_wink:

"I was just following orders" thats what the Nazis said at the Nuremberg Trials...

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