BigPontiac

Alpha Mail: Caddy's 3 Series rival is go

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Anyone else find it humorous that for so long, smaller Caddies were flops (Cimmaron, Catera), then the CTS came along, and now the smaller ones are the best styled & best sellers, if not the best all-around? Looking forward to seeing how this Caddy turns out. :)

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ps. Isn't the CTS already a 3er competitor? That's how I would place it...

CTS has moved up a bit in price.

A comparably-equipped 3-Series is now less MSRP than CTS (loaded CTSs top $50K now)......and when you factor in our crappy leases, alot less expensive to lease.

I think there's plenty of room for an Alpha Cadillac.....say sized around the 3-Series, but priced like a 1-series......

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This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

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Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

I'm surprised...I had assumed Alpha would get cancelled and GM would do something predictable like a Delta or Epsilon II based small Caddy..

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And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series

Why?

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This car should have been in development years ago, at least it is finally coming. How about pricing this like a 3-series and overhauling the CTS and making CTS $50,000 base. A 335i starts at $39,000 and can easily hit near $50k. And stopping the priced like a 1-series but sized like a 3-series or priced like a 3-series but sized like a 5-series, because the imports have been whopping on Cadillac for years. The GM beancounters need to stop nickle and diming, their engineers need to get behind the wheel of a 550i and E550, and the design department has to stop holding back, and make the BTS better than the 335i and CTS better than the Jaguar XF (the new #1 midsize luxury sedan according to Edmunds, Motortrend and CAR Magazine).

You realize a good part of the 5-series price premium is exchange rate.....

no.... I thought you didn't.

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Was there ever any doubt? Now expect to see a Buick and Chevy Alpha soon.

The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

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The Buick is pointless... dump the money into the Cadillac and give Buick a Delta II-based vehicle if they need a small car.

Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

NO!

In fact, the alpha Buick should go to Pontiac instead. WTF do Buick buyers care about RWD?

Moronic.

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Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

One of everything? I've heard talk that Chevy may get more than just one Alpha.....

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Pontiac should be getting a 3rd Alpha if there is one. Pontiac and Cadillac alone would probably be the best two, but of course Chevy has to have one of everything. Pontiac has no business pawning off a Chevy rebadge. Just kill the brand if that's all it's going to be.

I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

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I would agree, and say IMO a Delta II Buick and Alpha Pontiac make more sense to me than to flip those platforms. But GM is so myopic IMO.

Yes, esp. since they are going to be in the same showroom.. a sporty compact RWD model for Pontiac makes more sense than a RWD entry lux model for Buick.

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The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

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No one should get an Alpha besides Cadillac. There isn't a heavily rebated, 40% rental car volume brand using 3-series platforms. If this car is supposed to compete with a 3-series, it should be $33-49,00 and $62,000 for a V-series.

A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price. BMWs don't cost more than Cadillac's and the E-class doesn't start at $53,000 because of exchange rates. They cost that much because the materials used are more expensive and the engineering is more intense. Plus, those brands can command a premium because of reputation, people are willing to pay $50k for a compact car because it's "the ultimate driving machine."

Cadillac should be trying to out do them, not get 80 or 90% of the way there and figure they'll just have a $5k lower MSRP then add an employee discount to it to move metal.

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A 5-series is cheaper here than it would be in the UK. The 3-series is built in South Carolina, yet commands a premium price.

Invalid. The X5, X6, and Z4 come from S. Carolina... The 3-series is not built in the US.

Edited by moltar
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Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

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A CTS is $15K cheaper than a comparable 5-series. That money buys a lot of extra refinement, expensive materials (more aluminum e.g.) to cut weight and more technology. GM can't compete long term without substantially increasing the CTS' price. It is slowly doing that, but exchange rate moves have forced BMW to do likewise.

I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

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The only car brands that should get RWD on a regular basis are Chevy, Pontiac, and Cadillac. Caddy and Pontiac should be almost entirely RWD, Chevy should get its traditional RWDs, and the occasional model should show up elsewhere (Buick Riviera).

I don't want to be too much of a purist, but a RWD Riviera just seems...very odd.

Cadillac has an issue with Pontiac getting one, which by the way is the reason the Holden Sportwagon was nixed for Pontiac. Cadillac didn't want the competition with the CTS wagon, both being RWD.

WHAT COMPETITION?!?! Good lord, unless the Pontiac gets every single one of the nifty little features the Cadillac gets, has identical dimensions, and near-identical styling...hell no, I can't see those two being cross-shopped EVEN THEN!!

This is why GM is so fracking retarded: they do not yet understand that vehicles with price differentials of $20K DO NOT COMPETE! Being a "value leader" is nothing more than putting a "RENT ME!" sticker on a car. Who cross-shops the SLR and XLR? Those two vehicles actually are in the same segment...yet here's Cadillac stressing about a RWD Pontiac stealing its thunder. HELLO? Cadillac? Where was all the outrage in the 90s when you could get an OldsmoBuiCadillac Sedan d'Aurora Avenue?

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Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon :huh:

Not all of us are willing to spend 40K for a wagon. This is the main reason that my 9-3 will probably be my LAST GM product. I have been buying GM exclusively for the last 20 years and it amazes the mindset of GM management.

My wish list for what it is worth:

Pontiac - affordable (notice I did not say cheap) performance vehicles:

Alpha sedan, coupe, and wagon similar to the Tourana (sp?) concept

Kappa or next gen based 2 seater

Next gen G8 equivalent

3 platforms (unless the kappa moves to an alpha based platform), and 6 models. This fills the need for most people looking for sporty cars.

Cadillac - Premium cars

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Well, Chevy, Pontiac, and Saturn are probably all getting Delta IIs---does GM really need 4 FWD compacts in NA?

Chevy Cruze, Pontiac G5, Saturn Astra, and Saab 9-3.... so I guess the answer is... "yes".

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I doubt Alpha is cost-effective just with Cadillac's volume. They are a long way from matching the 3-series' sales levels. I agree that the Alpha should be a Pontiac rather than a Buick, but the Chinese market demands a Buick to match off against the rwd Toyota Reiz (Mark X/Cressida).

I am surprised nobody else mentioned this.

Who in their right mind would think that a 30K G8 wagon will compete with a 40-50K CTS wagon :huh:

I would. Look if I am going out to buy a sports wagon I want RWD, nice interior, good looks w/ good practicality. I don't shop based upon a dollar amount up. I shop a dollar amount down. If I can afford $50k but can get 80% of the looks, features, and practicality for $30k why should I spend the difference?

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