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    William Maley

    Cadillac Lyriq Gives Us Our First Peek Into GM's Electric Dreams

      You'll Be Waiting Until Late 2022 To See The Production Version


    It is no secret that General Motors has big ambitions in the electric car space, we talked about back in March. But our chance to see to see the first fruits of this, the Cadillac Lyriq had been delayed due to COVID-19 pandemic. But tonight, Cadillac finally revealed the Lyriq in show car form.

    "Show Car" is important in this context as Cadillac is finalizing various parts of the Lyriq's design - various reports say the design is 80 to 85 percent production ready. This may explain why Cadillac isn't launching the model until late-2022. The design is quite out there with a large pattern grille, vertical LED headlamps, fastback roofline, and rear lights that wrap around the pillars. Moving inside, the center piece is a curved, 33-inch display that features driver information and infotainment. There is also a dual-pane head-up display that can display different information - the nearest one can show speed and direction, while the further one can issue alerts and navigation.

    Cadillac hasn't released any power figures on the Lyriq, only saying that it will offer two drivetrain versions; rear-wheel drive with a single electric motor and all-wheel drive with two electric motors. A new modular platform for electric vehicles promises a low-center of gravity and a near 50/50 weight distribution for the all-wheel drive version. Range is targeted at over 300 miles. Cadillac says the production model will offer DC fast charging.

    Source: Cadillac
    Press Release is on Page 2


    LYRIQ Show Car Leads Cadillac Into Electric Future

    • The brand’s first all-electric vehicle introduces a new era in luxury, technology and zero-tailpipe-emissions performance

    Cadillac’s introduction of its electric portfolio begins today with the debut of the LYRIQ show car — a dynamic, modern and fully electric luxury crossover. 

    The propulsion system and supporting technologies position Cadillac to be a leader in electrification, connectivity and automated driving, all delivered with thrilling performance and a new threshold in technology integration.

    “Led by LYRIQ, Cadillac will redefine American luxury over the next decade with a new portfolio of transformative EVs,” said Steve Carlisle, executive vice president and president, GM North America. “We will deliver experiences that engage the senses, anticipate desires and enable our customers to go on extraordinary journeys.”

    The LYRIQ is based on GM’s next-generation, modular electric vehicle platform and driven by the Ultium propulsion system, allowing Cadillac to deliver customers a variety of range and performance options. With range being one of the biggest factors when it comes to selecting an EV, we’re designing LYRIQ to offer beyond 300 miles of range on a full charge, based on internal testing1. Performance and technology highlights include:

    • Charging options that fit a variety of preferences for home, the workplace and on the road — including DC fast charging rates over 150 kilowatts and Level 2 charging rates up to 19 kW2.
    • Rear-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive configurations.
    • The latest version of Super Cruise3, the industry’s first truly hands-free driver assistance feature, available on more than 200,000 miles of compatible highways and recently enhanced to include automated lane change.
    • New technologies such as dual-plane augmented reality-enhanced head-up display and remote self-parking.
    • The brand’s most seamless and adaptive technology interaction with the driver and passengers, including the latest Cadillac user experience, which is showcased in a 33-inch-diagonal advanced LED screen the spans the entire viewing area of the driver.

    “LYRIQ was conceived to make every journey exhilarating and leverages more than a century of innovation to drive the brand into a new era, while rewarding passengers with a more personal, connected and immersive experience,” said Jamie Brewer, Cadillac LYRIQ chief engineer. “To do this we developed an architecture specifically for EVs.  It is not only an exceptional EV, but first and foremost a Cadillac.”

    LIBERATING PERFORMANCE
    Some luxury EVs today feature adapted traditional internal combustion engine architecture, that is not the case with LYRIQ. Cadillac’s all-new, modular EV platform on which the LYRIQ is based is the foundation for its liberating performance. With a dedicated EV architecture, its design eliminates significant physical constraints associated with adapting electric propulsion within a conventional vehicle architecture, for an optimized design that supports greater driving range, an engaging driving experience and a new interpretation of passenger space.

    Within the LYRIQ, the Ultium battery system is a structural element of the architecture, integrated in ways that contribute to ride and handling, as well as safety. In fact, the lower center of gravity and near 50/50 weight distribution enabled by the placement of the battery pack results in a vehicle that’s sporty, responsive and allows for spirited driving.

    Additionally, the LYRIQ is driven primarily by the rear wheels, with a performance all-wheel drive option available. The placement of the drive motor at the rear of the vehicle contributes an even greater feeling of balance and agility — attributes that affirm Cadillac’s longstanding commitment to satisfying performance. It also enables the system to channel more torque to the pavement without wheelspin for exhilarating acceleration and greater cornering capability. Vehicles equipped with performance all-wheel drive go a step further, with a second drive unit placed at the front of the vehicle, which allows for a significant amount of tuning flexibility, enhancing vehicle dynamics and performance for drivers.

    ALL-NEW ULTIUM BATTERY SYSTEM
    The Cadillac LYRIQ is powered by GM’s new Ultium battery system, which offers approximately 100 kilowatt-hours of energy to deliver stirring performance.

    Ultium’s state-of-the-art NCMA (nickel-cobalt-manganese-aluminum) chemistry uses aluminum in the cathode to help reduce the need for rare-earth materials such as cobalt. In fact, GM engineers reduced the cobalt content by more than 70 percent, compared to current GM batteries.

    The advanced battery chemistry is packed in large, flat pouch cells that enable smart module construction to reduce complexity and simplify cooling needs. Additionally, the battery electronics are incorporated directly into the modules, eliminating nearly 90 percent of the battery pack wiring, compared to GM’s current electric vehicles. 

    When it comes to charging, LYRIQ offers quick and convenient charging options whether at home or on the go. With DC fast charging, the LYRIQ can charge at rates over 150 kW. 

    ARTFULLY INTEGRATED TECHNOLOGY
    Envisioned to make interaction with its technologies more intuitive and rewarding, the LYRIQ’s partnership with the driver and passengers is simultaneously energizing and artful.

    Upon approach, the LYRIQ recognizes the driver and initiates a “greeting” with a choreographed lighting sequence, while also preparing the cabin for the journey, including seat, mirror and climate system adjustments. Once inside, the LYRIQ offers Cadillac’s highest level of driver information, infotainment and connectivity integration, for a more seamless and rewarding experience.

    A 33-inch-diagonal advanced LED display artfully integrates a single, large screen that spans the viewing area for the driver and incorporates driver information details, infotainment controls and camera views. This new display has the highest pixel density available in the automotive industry today and can display over one billion colors, 64 times more than any other vehicle in the automotive industry, providing a stunning in-vehicle experience unlike anything seen before from Cadillac.

    Additional technology and interactive highlights include:

    • Battery and charging monitoring conveyed by easy, at-a-glance graphics. The system identifies the vehicle’s energy needs at home and on the go, according to owner preferences, while also monitoring and forecasting energy consumption and providing charging suggestions.
    • New dual-plane augmented reality-enhanced head-up display employs two planes: a near plane indicating speed, direction and more, and a far plane displaying transparent navigation signals and other important alerts.
    • The latest version of Super Cruise, the hands-free driver assistance feature, including automated lane change.3
    • Supervised remote parking that uses ultrasonic sensors to help the LYRIQ park itself in parallel or perpendicular parking spaces — whether the driver is inside or outside of the vehicle.4

    SENSE OF SOUND
    LYRIQ’s technology also addresses sound in two important ways: Blocking unwanted sounds and making the most of the sounds passengers want to hear.

    For the first time, Cadillac will introduce a new road noise cancellation technology, which takes active noise cancellation to the next level by introducing more microphones and accelerometers, which improve noise cancellation abilities. With this new system, Cadillac’s performance and audio engineers can target the frequency range of tire cavity noise, reducing the noise level in the vehicle and allowing for a quieter in-cabin experience.

    The Cadillac LYRIQ builds on the brand’s exclusive partnership with AKG. “With LYRIQ we wanted to deliver a sound experience that would transport the driver from a vehicle into a recording studio,” said Hussein Khalil, Cadillac lead audio design release engineer. “With the AKG sound system, we are able to deliver this experience along with the quality and reliability luxury customers expect.”

    At launch, LYRIQ will offer a 19-speaker AKG Studio audio system that delivers exceptionally crisp and precise sound reproduction, enabling drivers and passengers to enjoy their favorite music.

    NEW FACE OF CADILLAC
    Cadillac’s first electric SUV makes a bold design statement that introduces a new face, proportion and presence for the brand’s new generation of EVs. It’s a forward-looking vision unconstrained by the needs of a traditional internal combustion engine and driveline.

    “The LYRIQ represents the next iteration of the iconic brand’s styling, enabled by electrification, as only Cadillac can express,” said Andrew Smith, executive director, Global Cadillac Design. “Inside and out, LYRIQ is a thoughtful integration of design and technology and is intended to make every drive an occasion.”

    Defined by taut lines and clean surfaces, LYRIQ is assertive and modern, characterized with a low, fast roofline and wide stance that emphasize agility and convey confidence. Additional details such as a flow-through roof spoiler express the careful attention paid to aerodynamics to optimize efficiency on the highway.

    A distinctive “black crystal” grille in the front is one of the LYRIQ’s most unique and expressive design elements. It is also a dynamic feature, as it is part of a dramatic lighting choreography that — along with bold vertical, slim LED signature lighting — greets the owner upon approach. At the rear, a split taillamp design incorporates slim LEDs that are also integrated into the lighting choreography.

    Inside, the LYRIQ’s new electric vehicle architecture opens up possibilities in vehicle spaciousness and design; and Cadillac designers used this as an opportunity to rethink how to use the space and where to locate various interior elements.

    The result is a more airy, minimalistic design that does more to involve the driver and passengers in the driving experience while offering exceptional functionality when it comes to storage solutions. It is also brimming with subtle yet obsessive details such as backlit speaker grilles, curved screens with hidden storage and, like the exterior, orchestrated lighting features.



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    I dig this actually...pretty cool.

    but the idiocy of it (typical GM idiocy in a higher dose this time) is to not have it ready until 2 years from now, and also, it really would help Cadillac a lot more to make it ICE engine and sell it as the XT7.

    twin turbo six standard.  Blackwing v8 twin turbo OHC optional.

    I'd change the rear side window a bit and wrap the tailights a bit differently but I sort of dig what they are getting at....trying cool things.  Front lighting is way cool.

    Edited by regfootball
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    It doesn't look good, the front looks too much like a Chevy Blazer and the rear end is all messed up.  But it is a concept too, so we'll have to see what the production car looks like, and all the interior images they showed were simulated, so we can't really be sure yet how that will look.

    Would be nice to have heard more specs, like horsepower or performance beyond a targeted 300 mile range.  Seems like this will be a 2023 model, so it is a ways off.  I don't know why they would show their hand that far out, and I think what they have isn't better than what Tesla was selling a couple years ago.  

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    Blazer :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.53.48 PM.png

    Lyriq :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.53.52 PM.png

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

     

    Dated, dowdy & spartan when new, dead in 2022 :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.57.27 PM.png

    Edited by balthazar
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    11 hours ago, regfootball said:

    I dig this actually...pretty cool.

    but the idiocy of it (typical GM idiocy in a higher dose this time) is to not have it ready until 2 years from now, and also, it really would help Cadillac a lot more to make it ICE engine and sell it as the XT7.

    twin turbo six standard.  Blackwing v8 twin turbo OHC optional.

    I'd change the rear side window a bit and wrap the tailights a bit differently but I sort of dig what they are getting at....trying cool things.  Front lighting is way cool.

    Agree with you that the stupid 2yr to get to market is just total mgmt. ignorance, would have been better to hold off on showing anything then till closer to the on sale date.

    Disagree with you on the ICE thing, that boat sailed and the companies who move to EV sooner will survive I believe. 

    GM can survive on their current ICE line up to profit through the change over to an EV portfolio.

    Cool part is that I can see this as a Blackwing edition with the 3 motor 1,000 HP / 11,000 lb-ft of torque layout that they are planning for Hummer. Course, EV's are far more programmable than ICE and so they could have a potential 2,000 HP / 22,000 lb-ft of torque version to go into the ultimate Blackwing version all with Black chrome would be awesome.

    Rear is for sure very controversial and it does seem to generate a love or hate reaction on the web from people posting. 

    For sure Cadillac has people talking about them.

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    11 hours ago, regfootball said:

    I dig this actually...pretty cool.

    but the idiocy of it (typical GM idiocy in a higher dose this time) is to not have it ready until 2 years from now, and also, it really would help Cadillac a lot more to make it ICE engine and sell it as the XT7.

    twin turbo six standard.  Blackwing v8 twin turbo OHC optional.

     

    This was designed as an EV, so that's not going to happen...and we are talking about GM..it would have had a transverse 2.0 4 had it been an ICE product..

    I'd love to have seen GM build a powerful V8 CUV to compete w/ the Cayenne,  but that window of opportunity is past...GM's future is electric as they have stated.  

     GM is committed to the EV future...whether they will be successful or not only time will tell...

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    Didn't it take 2 years for Tesla between the showing of the Model 3 to being able to buy it?
    Hell, hasn't the M3 (a trim and engine upgrade on the same model) taken 1.5 years to go on sale from when a new 3-series did? This sort of time span is certainly not unprecedented.

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    5 hours ago, balthazar said:

    ^ Right, but because it's Cadillac / GM, it's "inept management".  🙄

    Yup, They should then call it a concept for consumer feedback on the styling rather than a show car for production.

    GM is not the only one here that shows stuff off IMHO way too early from Production. I wish everyone would show concepts for getting feedback from the Public, but keep actual production auto's to no more than 12 months out from release. I think this would be better public perception.

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    smk4565

    Posted (edited)

    17 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Blazer :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.53.48 PM.png

    Lyriq :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.53.52 PM.png

    😆 😆 😆 😆 😆

     

    Dated, dowdy & spartan when new, dead in 2022 :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-06 at 9.57.27 PM.png

    The Cadillac front end looks like a Chevy.  Even worse when you put an XT6 vs a Chevy.  

    Edited by smk4565
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    16 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cadillac front end looks like a Chevy.  Even worse when you put an XT6 vs a Chevy.  

    While they are blah you can at least truly tell them apart unlike the MB stable.

    Perfect case in point, one cannot tell which model is which here. This is just terrible, worse styling differentiation ever!

    image.png

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    3 hours ago, David said:

    Yup, They should then call it a concept for consumer feedback on the styling rather than a show car for production.

    You mean like the show car for production ELR or the show car for production XTS?
    I’m not worried.

    32 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The Cadillac front end looks like a Chevy. 

    You’re sight impaired.

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    2 hours ago, David said:

    While they are blah you can at least truly tell them apart unlike the MB stable.

    Perfect case in point, one cannot tell which model is which here. This is just terrible, worse styling differentiation ever!

    image.png

    Except all 4 of those are E-classes.  I don't care if all Cadillacs look the same, I care if Cadillacs look like Chevrolets.

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    6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Except all 4 of those are E-classes.  I don't care if all Cadillacs look the same, I care if Cadillacs look like Chevrolets.

    Yet I doubt the majority here myself included could tell these were E class and not S or C class.

    Having Family DNA is one thing, having all levels of a product line blur into each other is another. MB has blurred all levels badly.

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    6 minutes ago, David said:

    Yet I doubt the majority here myself included could tell these were E class and not S or C class.

     

    Front fascias are the same, grilles differ.  Headlights are the same...and the E-class is the only MB line w/ 4 bodystyles..sedan, coupe, convertible and wagon.

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    This Cadillac looks nearly exactly, and I mean NEARLY EXACTLY like this Chevrolet :

    18 CLA:Scoupe.png

    Meanwhile, over at Daimler :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-07 at 7.12.48 PM.png

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    Cadillac says it will start under $75k, which makes me thinking dual motor with options is pushing $100k.  This vehicle better be good if they want Escalade money for it.  

    The Lyriq doesn't have 400 mile range or 350 kwh charge which are the top on market now, this car is 2-3 years away.   I don't see what the hook is, other than if you currently have a Cadillac SUV and want an EV.  Unless more details are released closer to launch so we have to wait and see.

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    18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Cadillac says it will start under $75k

    That's was a Ward's Auto/other rag's guess, not Cadillac-sourced.

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    41 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    That's was a Ward's Auto/other rag's guess, not Cadillac-sourced.

    In the Ward's article they said Steve Carlisle said it would start under $75,000.  

    Without knowing the performance or standard features, it is hard to determine what is a good price point.  $75k undercuts the Tesla Model X by $5k, maybe that makes the Lyriq a bargain, or maybe $75k is a rip off, but we don't know yet.

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    If 80% of that vehicle comes to market starting at $75K, that's incredible bargain... but that interior (or 80% of that interior) is $100K plus.
    The Model X is certainly no class leader here - Tesla is hiding it's sales by combining them with another falling -and completely unrelated- model, the Model S. The field is ripe for a new model to rise to the top. You know it's not coming from mercedes.

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    24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    If 80% of that vehicle comes to market starting at $75K, that's incredible bargain... but that interior (or 80% of that interior) is $100K plus.
    The Model X is certainly no class leader here - Tesla is hiding it's sales by combining them with another falling -and completely unrelated- model, the Model S. The field is ripe for a new model to rise to the top. You know it's not coming from mercedes.

    Base Model X today has 351 mile range, Cadillac is targeting 300 miles in 2023.

    The Model X Performance does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds, and GM won't allow anything faster than a Corvette, so I doubt the Lyriq is going to beat that.   And if Tesla has some cash flow, I imagine they'll have new versions of the Model S and X by 2023.  

    Mercedes has over 400 miles of range in the EQS, that will come next year, and EQE and a couple SUVs in 2022, if anyone is going to challenge Tesla I'd imagine it will be Mercedes who will have the battery factories and facilities to make all this stuff and has a customer base used to paying these kind of prices.   VW group might also be a big disruptor given their global size and number of brands.  

     

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    In the Ward's article they said Steve Carlisle said it would start under $75,000.

    A-aaaaand they said the original Seville would start at $8K, and when it came out it was $12K. The Lyriq is too far from the showroom floor to pin it down now.

    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    The Model X Performance does 0-60 in 2.6 seconds...

    Yet no one buys it. 

    and GM won't allow anything faster than a Corvette, so I doubt the Lyriq is going to beat that.


    Seeing as how the base Corvette already is doing 2.8 secs, there’s plenty of room. Doesn’t really matter obviously; no one buys the 2.6 sec SUV as it is. Perhaps you don’t understand the consumer demographic like you think you do.

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    3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes has over 400 miles of range in the EQS, that will come next year,

    They don’t have shit until its certified. Remember that other German co that said their EV would get 390 miles on range, but testing barely returned 300?

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    On 8/7/2020 at 9:41 AM, balthazar said:

    Didn't it take 2 years for Tesla between the showing of the Model 3 to being able to buy it?
    Hell, hasn't the M3 (a trim and engine upgrade on the same model) taken 1.5 years to go on sale from when a new 3-series did? This sort of time span is certainly not unprecedented.

    Not to mention how long has Benz been “showing off” the delayed EQS lineup? Funny how that gets sidestepped by the resident Daimler fan. 

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    15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    In the Ward's article they said Steve Carlisle said it would start under $75,000.  

    Without knowing the performance or standard features, it is hard to determine what is a good price point.  $75k undercuts the Tesla Model X by $5k, maybe that makes the Lyriq a bargain, or maybe $75k is a rip off, but we don't know yet.

    For those wondering about the Ward's Auto article - https://www.wardsauto.com/vehicles/cadillac-lyriq-pricing-expected-under-75000

    Quote

    In response to a media question during a briefing earlier this week, GM North America President Steve Carlisle says pricing for the Lyriq will begin below $75,000.

     

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    ^ Lyriq is “80% production”. That leaves 20% up for possible change.
    Logically thinking, that likewise gives room for 20% change in MSRP, and not necessarily downward, either.

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    52 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    ^ Lyriq is “80% production”. That leaves 20% up for possible change.
    Logically thinking, that likewise gives room for 20% change in MSRP, and not necessarily downward, either.

    But is that a bad thing? Logically we have Buick doing what it should and that is mid level luxury to entry level high end. 

    At this point, why not have Cadillac be that TRUE LUXURY brand. I see no reason for Buick and Cadillac to fight it out in the same 30 to 60 K range.

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    I agree that true luxury brands should not be downmarket... but the small margin / bigger volume is too ahrd for single-marque brands to resist. SMK seems to think that a $75K Lyriq is some sort of indicator of a problem. I believe we're too far out from a finalized vehicle to take that figure as law right now.

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    8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    Not to mention how long has Benz been “showing off” the delayed EQS lineup? Funny how that gets sidestepped by the resident Daimler fan. 

    The issue isn't that Lyriq is 2.5 years away from dealerships, it is that the range they are promising is 50 miles less than what the competitor offers today.  I assume a big part of showing the vehicle now is to get people excited and to sign up to buy one like Tesla does or like what Ford did with the Bronco.  But Cadillac didn't give a reason to wait 2 years for this car.  

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    Tesla Model X performance, which you specifically mentioned before, has a range of 305 miles.

    Besides the already-illustrated time span explaination, I think the reason to wait for the Lyriq is obvious.
    You know people were waiting for the Model X (initially; not any longer), and look at how bland & uninteresting that is.
    Plenty of folk are going to find the Lyriq a stunner worthy of waiting for.

    Edited by balthazar

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    7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I agree that true luxury brands should not be downmarket... but the small margin / bigger volume is too ahrd for single-marque brands to resist. SMK seems to think that a $75K Lyriq is some sort of indicator of a problem. I believe we're too far out from a finalized vehicle to take that figure as law right now.

    $75k isn't a problem if the car is good.  All the interior images shown were computer simulation, so we can't really judge how good the interior is, we don't know what the actual materials will be like.  We don't know the horsepower or performance either.    It is too far out to judge.  I don't get why Cadillac showed it now really without more of a hook to excite buyers.    Unless GM just had to show an EV to shareholders to make it look like they were doing something because of Tesla.  

     

    Tesla is worth 6 times more than GM right now, GM shareholders have to wonder why they are sticking around.

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    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The issue isn't that Lyriq is 2.5 years away from dealerships, it is that the range they are promising is 50 miles less than what the competitor offers today.  I assume a big part of showing the vehicle now is to get people excited and to sign up to buy one like Tesla does or like what Ford did with the Bronco.  But Cadillac didn't give a reason to wait 2 years for this car.  

    All the writeups including the latest one from wardsauto is saying as a 2023 model year, meaning this auto will be out late spring, summer 2022 or 1 and 1/2 years away, not 2.5. If GM stays on this course, they will still deliver the LYRIQ way faster than MB has delivered the EQS.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All the interior images shown were computer simulation

    19:25 in the video. I don't see anything in that segment that proves it's all CGI.

     

    - - - - -
    Legally, a 2023 model can go on sale Jan 1, 2022. Cadillac did that sort of thing with the first CTS.

    Edited by balthazar
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    3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Tesla Model X performance, which you specifically mentioned before, has a range of 305 miles.

    Besides the already-illustrated time span explaination, I think the reason to wait for the Lyriq is obvious.
    You know people were waiting for the Model X (initially; not any longer), and look at how bland & uninteresting that is.
    Plenty of folk are going to find the Lyriq a stunner worthy of waiting for.

    But the base Model X has 350 miles.  And the Lyric is not a Tesla.  Tesla is the on fire brand, it represents the future.  Cadillac is the past and has an image problem.  

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    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    $75k isn't a problem if the car is good.  All the interior images shown were computer simulation, so we can't really judge how good the interior is, we don't know what the actual materials will be like.  We don't know the horsepower or performance either.    It is too far out to judge.  I don't get why Cadillac showed it now really without more of a hook to excite buyers.    Unless GM just had to show an EV to shareholders to make it look like they were doing something because of Tesla.  

    At this same stage for MB on the EQS, everything was computer simulation also, but from what they have shown we already know that the bulk of the interior is real including the dash which is from the new Escalade. This is already superior to what has been seen out of MB.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    But the base model doesn't go 0-60 in 2.6 secs.
    How many models do you want to compare 1 competitor to?

    Correction: Tesla WAS on fire. the catalog is stale now- Model s is NINE years old, and Musk has combined S & X sales numbers to hide the dwindling numbers there. The Model 3 cannibalized off most of the S buyers.

    Edited by balthazar
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    3 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    19:25 in the video. I don't see anything in that segment that proves it's all CGI.

     

    - - - - -
    Legally, a 2023 model can go on sale Jan 1, 2022. Cadillac did that sort of thing with the first CTS.

    Totally Agree, none of that is CGI, it is all real compared to what MB had shown before their autoshow with the EQS. I do love how the front lights up when you unlock the auto. Interior is awesome!!!

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    2 minutes ago, David said:

    ...the dash which is from the new Escalade. This is already superior to what has been seen out of MB.

    Agreed, but watch how fast mercedes copies it.

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    1 minute ago, David said:

    All the writeups including the latest one from wardsauto is saying as a 2023 model year, meaning this auto will be out late spring, summer 2022 or 1 and 1/2 years away, not 2.5. If GM stays on this course, they will still deliver the LYRIQ way faster than MB has delivered the EQS.

    I have read Lyriq will be on sale late 2022.  EQS will be on sale in calendar year 2021. 

    5 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    19:25 in the video. I don't see anything in that segment that proves it's all CGI.

     

    It is pre-prouction interior and they are only showing bits and pieces.  I'll reserve judgment on the vehicle and price until when we see the product version.  The styling I am not  fan of, I assume that will stay pretty similar.  

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    4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I have read Lyriq will be on sale late 2022.  EQS will be on sale in calendar year 2021. 

    CORRECTION, via multiple sources, on sale some time first half of 2021 with deliveries by the end of 2021 start of 2022. That means the EQS will either be a very late 2022 model year or early 2023. About the same time frame as the Cadillac being delivered since you can pre-order it starting this fall with a deposit, final pricing to determine cost in 2021 or so. Not much difference than what Tesla, Ford or anyone else is really doing.

    Same with the Hummer by GMC this fall.

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    21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    It is pre-prouction interior and they are only showing bits and pieces.  I'll reserve judgment on the vehicle and price until when we see the product version.

    Yes; it's not 100% production-spec. But it's also not "only CGI", is it?
    They showed most of it tho- doors, dash, center console, panoramic overhead shots. A lot more than 'bits & pieces' and just as much as any OEM-issued interior video. As for 'reserving judgement', you've already made up you mind and that -I dare to say- was before you saw a single image.

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    14 minutes ago, David said:

    CORRECTION, via multiple sources, on sale some time first half of 2021 with deliveries by the end of 2021 start of 2022. That means the EQS will either be a very late 2022 model year or early 2023. About the same time frame as the Cadillac being delivered since you can pre-order it starting this fall with a deposit, final pricing to determine cost in 2021 or so. Not much difference than what Tesla, Ford or anyone else is really doing.

    Same with the Hummer by GMC this fall.

    Order date doesn't matter, when it is physically sitting on a dealer lot is what matters.  Tesla can take 500,000 reservations for a Cybertruck but that is meaningless until there is an actual  truck sitting in an actual customer's driveway.  

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    21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Order date doesn't matter, when it is physically sitting on a dealer lot is what matters.  Tesla can take 500,000 reservations for a Cybertruck but that is meaningless until there is an actual  truck sitting in an actual customer's driveway.  

    I would basically agree with that, except Tesla threw all that convention out the window, having thousands waiting a year to 2 years, with deposits made, for a car.

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    EQS will be on sale in calendar year 2021. 

    That's highly questionable- mercedes just announced they are cancelling SEVEN models.
    I knew the cost-cutting was going to hit quick & hard.

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    42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    That's highly questionable- mercedes just announced they are cancelling SEVEN models.
    I knew the cost-cutting was going to hit quick & hard.

    Yeah, cutting coupe and convertible versions of the C, E, and S-class and the CLS is probably dead after this generation. There may be a new CLE coupe/convertible coming so they have a convertible that isn’t over $100k in the portfolio.
     

    They are cutting vanity products that don’t sell which is smart, there is no shortage of SUVs,  they keep adding those.

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    9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

     EQS will be on sale in calendar year 2021. 

    Wrong, reviewing multiple auto news sites, they all seem to have one consistent thing in common. S-Class sedan is set to make an appearance in September 2020 with on sale date as a 2021 starting Jan 2021 due to the Pandemic.

    This is the real clear NOTE to pay attention too:

    Christoph Starzynski, the EQS chief engineer, says it already feels like an S-Class and that the team is hitting its targets. When will the EQS go into production? Starzynski said it will probably be "two more years", which means that it may only arrive as a 2023 model and give the all-new S-Class plenty of time to lay the foundation for the next generation of Mercedes flagship luxury sedans.

    That means at the Earliest we will see this out in the 2022 calendar year here in the US. Considering how much both Mercedes-Benz and BMW have launched their EV's as a Global auto to then state it will be China First, Europe and then the US. Battery production delays, now teaming up with CATL so that they have Production close to MB manufacturing, yet that plant is only in construction phase now with production to start at the end of 2021. 

    The EQ has been delayed multiple times due to two main reasons, they state demand in China and Europe have outstripped production, but then came back and said now that battery supply is not allowing them to start production and sales in the US.

    They cannot make the EQ a Global on sale auto, how will they make the EQS when they do not have production up and running yet.

    Clearly the EQS is a 2022 as a 2023 at the earliest production EV here in the US if they even ever get the EQ here.

    MB EV's are Vapor products on the Global stage right now. 

    Cadillac LYRIQ will be a China first product, then brought to the US. From there maybe the rest of the world, but GM has only Committed to China / Asian rim and the US for their EV products.

    On top of this, Daimler has stated in 2020 the only all electric product in production is the SmartCar, first company to go all pure EV from ICE. https://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/electric/eq-production-hambach.html

    They state they plan to have 10 to 15 EV's in production by 2022. 

    • 1st have to get battery production going
    • 2nd actually have to get the presales of their EQ EV produced and delivered in China and Europe, forget the US, no on sale date per their own MBUSA web site.
    • 3rd have to actually have product here, they have stated they are investing in the US with battery production here, but that is not slated to be completed till Q1 2022. So the earliest would be Q1 2022 for EV production and sales here.
    • Reminder, May 7th 2019 MB had their news release that Sales would start as would production soon, yet still nothing available for reviews in Europe or China of the EQC yet. https://www.daimler.com/investors/reports-news/financial-news/20190507-eqc.html
    • MB announced in 2017 a $1 billion investment in their Tuscaloosa facilities with the bulk being for EV production that would start early next Decade. Being after 2020 and yet to date they have only increased for production of CUVs, electric investment has only recently started with some expansion of their buildings but nothing to date stated as production of battery packs or actual auto's yet. With their only head of Engineering stating 2 years at the earliest to come to market behind the new S-Class again this goes inline with having a 2022 year release at the earliest. https://www.daimler.com/company/locations/tuscaloosa/
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    7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Yeah, cutting coupe and convertible versions of the C, E, and S-class and the CLS is probably dead after this generation. There may be a new CLE coupe/convertible coming so they have a convertible that isn’t over $100k in the portfolio.
     

    They are cutting vanity products that don’t sell which is smart, there is no shortage of SUVs,  they keep adding those.

    Why should they cut models when you have always stated they are the most profitable auto company around and will always have the most diverse portfolio. That would imply they should have no problem continuing to sell non-profitable cars.

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    This is an interesting read on why the LYRIQ is NOT for the US market. We might never actually get it since there is no confirmed production in the US, only China. The US seems destined to get the Hummer by GMC brand for sure which is not slated for China.

    This brings up an Interesting thought, if LYRIQ is not for the US, but really only China where Cadillac has a strong growth and GMC does not exist, Could GMC become the big luxury brand in the US as Cadillac goes away to China only?

    Could we see a Chevrolet / Buick / GMC future of the US?

    One would hope that Cadillac would become the true Luxury only brand it once was and that anything below the $60 to $70 K level is left to Buick/GMC dealerships.

    https://www.thedrive.com/tech/35466/the-cadillac-lyriq-leads-gms-electric-luxury-future-but-its-not-really-for-you

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    10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But the base Model X has 350 miles.  And the Lyric is not a Tesla.  Tesla is the on fire brand, it represents the future.  Cadillac is the past and has an image problem.  

    (Looks at the delayed EQS lineup and thinks that you forgot to mention Benz in that statement) 

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    And yet another article about Cadillac where the entire thread is about basically debunking SMKs endless trolling and lies. 
     

    Ans this is why is I only visit sparingly anymore. 

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    22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    And yet another article about Cadillac where the entire thread is about basically debunking SMKs endless trolling and lies. 
     

    Ans this is why is I only visit sparingly anymore. 

    It is good to see you back, since the last time you visited, this is the first in a while that SMK has tried to move a thread about a product into all about MB crap again.

    I hope to see you pop in and comment on other threads. Like what I am seeing for Hummer by GMC of the truck and SUV so far. Comment there please on what you think about those auto's.

    Glad to see you pop in here to comment on the LYRIQ.

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    13 hours ago, David said:

    Wrong, reviewing multiple auto news sites, they all seem to have one consistent thing in common. S-Class sedan is set to make an appearance in September 2020 with on sale date as a 2021 starting Jan 2021 due to the Pandemic.

    This is the real clear NOTE to pay attention too:

    Christoph Starzynski, the EQS chief engineer, says it already feels like an S-Class and that the team is hitting its targets. When will the EQS go into production? Starzynski said it will probably be "two more years", which means that it may only arrive as a 2023 model and give the all-new S-Class plenty of time to lay the foundation for the next generation of Mercedes flagship luxury sedans.

    That means at the Earliest we will see this out in the 2022 calendar year here in the US. Considering how much both Mercedes-Benz and BMW have launched their EV's as a Global auto to then state it will be China First, Europe and then the US. Battery production delays, now teaming up with CATL so that they have Production close to MB manufacturing, yet that plant is only in construction phase now with production to start at the end of 2021. 

    Good information, originally the EQS was supposed to be a 2022 model, they had the concept and drivable prototype last year.  But I'd imagine the pandemic has slowed and and EV demand still isn't that high.  Although they need the EQS because of what Tesla is going.  And the EQE sedan and the SUVs too.

    My guess is the S-class or E-class will clobber the EV's in sales for about 5 years, maybe closer to 2030 all these things just become electric and that is just the normal.

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    13 hours ago, David said:

    Why should they cut models when you have always stated they are the most profitable auto company around and will always have the most diverse portfolio. That would imply they should have no problem continuing to sell non-profitable cars.

    They have the most diverse portfolio still, and are #1 selling luxury car brand in 2020 so far.  They are cutting models that don't sell, and they have like 50 models, cutting 7 is not big deal.   Keep in mind they are also adding EQ C, EQ S, EQ A, EQ B, which is 4 all new models.  Rumor is they are adding CLE coupe/convertible, so they are adding 6 models probably over the next 2-3 years.

    Cadillac has cut 6 of the 7 models they had in 2016.  No one is flipping out about them killing 6/7ths of their lineup in 4 years, in fact people applaud it.

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    13 hours ago, David said:

    This is an interesting read on why the LYRIQ is NOT for the US market. We might never actually get it since there is no confirmed production in the US, only China. The US seems destined to get the Hummer by GMC brand for sure which is not slated for China.

    This brings up an Interesting thought, if LYRIQ is not for the US, but really only China where Cadillac has a strong growth and GMC does not exist, Could GMC become the big luxury brand in the US as Cadillac goes away to China only?

    Could we see a Chevrolet / Buick / GMC future of the US?

    One would hope that Cadillac would become the true Luxury only brand it once was and that anything below the $60 to $70 K level is left to Buick/GMC dealerships.

    https://www.thedrive.com/tech/35466/the-cadillac-lyriq-leads-gms-electric-luxury-future-but-its-not-really-for-you

    Can't get rid of Cadillac in the USA.  If anything you would make Buick China only because most the small Buick SUVs overlap Chevy/GMC products or could be pushed to GMC like an Encore or Envision.  And Cadillac could do an XT3 SUV as an entry point in what was Buick pricing.  

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    11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Cadillac has cut 6 of the 7 models they had in 2016.  No one is flipping out about them killing 6/7ths of their lineup in 4 years, in fact people applaud it.

    You applauded it too. 'Build more CUV/SUVs!' you demanded.
    The 'applause' is supplying the market with the SUVs they demand.

    Cadillac had 7 models in '16, and they have 6 in '20.

    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And Cadillac could do an XT3 SUV as an entry point in what was Buick pricing.  

    Except that would be stupid. But there you go again applauding Cadillac building more SUVs. You must luvluvluv the Lyriq; gonna turn the segment on it's ear if that variant/trim is offered.

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    SUV’s are what sell sadly.  And once the money crunch hits all car makers they’ll give up on low volume sports cars to throw more SUVs at the market.  High demand for the Bronco makes me think there is room for luxury off roaders, G-Wagen and Range Rover and LR Defender are all there are.

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    Cadillac needs a roomy mid-size sedan, their current sedans are too small inside.  With an EV they could get CT6 interior space in the footprint of a CT4 or CT5.  And I assume a big rear drive EV sedan is coming.
     

    After Lyriq they need a smaller EV crossover, Escalade next gen should go EV only which would be in the 2027 timeframe so pretty far out there.  In the meantime they should do a luxury off roader or lifestyle type vehicle.  Cadillacs sell in the Midwest and in Texas where that sort of product works.

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    26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Cadillac needs a roomy mid-size sedan, their current sedans are too small inside.  With an EV they could get CT6 interior space in the footprint of a CT4 or CT5.  And I assume a big rear drive EV sedan is coming.
     

    After Lyriq they need a smaller EV crossover, Escalade next gen should go EV only which would be in the 2027 timeframe so pretty far out there.  In the meantime they should do a luxury off roader or lifestyle type vehicle.  Cadillacs sell in the Midwest and in Texas where that sort of product works.

    Hummer by GMC is that Luxury off-road product.

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    1 hour ago, David said:

    Hummer by GMC is that Luxury off-road product.

    You can always go higher.  I can't see any GMC being $100k, so there is plenty of room for a Cadillac over top of the Hummer.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    Silverado is already reaching into the mid $80K range. Sierra Denali is probably possible to bridge $90K. 'Why not'? Because trucks are better built, last longer and are far more versatile than sedan 'counterparts', with hearly as many technological features. Frankly, other than 'exotic' sports cars, trucks should already be higher priced than sedans based on that alone.

    New Tahoe is quieter at 70 MPH cruising than a mercedes s-class, and also out-brakes it 70-0 by 6 feet.

    Edited by balthazar
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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    why?

    Because they never sold anything at that price before, even a Yukon Denali is $72k starting and that is pretty well equipped as is.  

    Also Cadillac hasn't been successful with a $100k product before, so I don't see how a brand below Cadillac can pull it off. 

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    Silverado is already reaching into the mid $80K range. Sierra Denali is probably possible to bridge $90K. 'Why not'? Because trucks are better built, last longer and are far more versatile than sedan 'counterparts', with hearly as many technological features. Frankly, other than 'exotic' sports cars, trucks should already be higher priced than sedans based on that alone.

    Sierra Denali starts at $55k.  Maybe a 3500 dually diesel gets up to higher price.

    I am talking a vehicle with a base of $100k, GMC could never do that.  

    And 3500 spec trucks with a diesel are not really a good comparison due to the commercial nature.  I am talking passenger cars/suvs.  Because there are Freightliner M2 106's selling for $150k and I wouldn't call that a luxury product, it is a commercial vehicle.  

    If the Hummer is $100k and the Bronco is $30-50k, I can tell you right now the Hummer will last about 3 model years and be gone as fast as the H3T was.

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    We've discussed this before- base MSRP is irrevelant.
    No one buys vehicles at the base, no-options status, and vehicles starting around $100K have short option lists.

    A '20 Sierra Denali HD 3500 starts at $76K. Add ONE option, the Duramax, and you're already at $86K. But even at this price level, there are SO many equipment & options you can add, way more than most sedans ever have, it's ridiculous.

     

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    39 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    We've discussed this before- base MSRP is irrevelant.
    No one buys vehicles at the base, no-options status, and vehicles starting around $100K have short option lists.

    A '20 Sierra Denali HD 3500 starts at $76K. Add ONE option, the Duramax, and you're already at $86K. But even at this price level, there are SO many equipment & options you can add, way more than most sedans ever have, it's ridiculous.

     

    But GM/Cadillac don't have anything in the $100-200k range, and north of $200k the volume is probably too low to make it worth their while to do given the volumes they need on cars.

    And if Chevrolet has the best sports cars at GM, GMC has the best off roader, what does Cadillac have?  The problem with Cadillac is they don't even have the best stuff at GM, let alone compared to Tesla, Mercedes or Porsche or Lexus.  Taking Chevy SUVs and plussing them 20% doesn't make for a desirable brand and that is where Cadillac is right now.

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    I see no reason that GMC cannot handle a $100,000 truck or SUV.

    They are already near that.

    image.png

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    $81 is still far from $100k.  And even if a loaded GMC Hummer is $100k, a G-wagen starts at $130k and goes to $200k.  Why can't there be a Cadillac that starts at $130k or $150k?  

    And if Cadillac isn't cranking out cars left and right at $75-100k, which they aren't, I don't know why you would try to go there with a GMC SUV. 

    The GMC Hummer will fail hard if it is double the price of a Bronco which is a cool looking vehicle with a load of appeal.  And GMC can try to go head to head with the Cybertruck if they want, but the Tesla fan base is near impossible to crack.  And Elon Musk by himself is worth more than Ford and GM combined.  

     

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    Oh, now it's "$200K" or "$150K", when 12 seconds ago it was "$100K".

    Typical.

    - - - - -
    Hummer has as good a chance as any luxury EV- the 11,500 TRQ is going to draw a segment of the demographic like flies. Meanwhile, mercedes is cutting employees, budgets and models, and delaying their too-late response to Tesla. No buzz, no interest, yet another alpha-numeric lost in a catalog of 84 77 models.

    29 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    $81 is still far from $100k.

    Pickin' and choosin'.
    What about the 1-option truck that stickers for $86K I mentioned 3 posts above yours?  Is $86K still "far" from $100K? OK, add 3 or 4 more options. There's your backyard BBQ bragging point; have another bratwurst and go sit over on the other side of the yard.

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    7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    yet another alpha-numeric lost in a catalog of 84 77 models.

    And more than half of those are econo-shyte boxes.  You know...with all those shytty versions of the same phoquing car on the same phoquing platform...   To which MORE models will be cut...as I said...Mercedes (and BMW) like to produce different versions of the same car, branding it a different model.  And we all know these never had any relevant sales to begin with.  And so...every useless model will get canceled.  

    Ive said this before.  I wont be surprised if Mercedes actually ends up with only a dozen vehicles, yes 10-13 models, 3/4 of those CUVs and the E Class COMPLETELY GONE from  Canadian and American shores... 

     

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    Back on the Cadillac EV discussion, they have confirmed an Escalade EV. 

    • Cadillac LYRIQ EV
    • Cadillac Escalade EV

    One has to wonder what they will call all the other CUV/Cars for the full EV portfolio. I doubt they will stick with CT and XT.

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    smk4565

    Posted (edited)

    30 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    And more than half of those are econo-shyte boxes.  You know...with all those shytty versions of the same phoquing car on the same phoquing platform...   To which MORE models will be cut...as I said...Mercedes (and BMW) like to produce different versions of the same car, branding it a different model.  And we all know these never had any relevant sales to begin with.  And so...every useless model will get canceled.  

    Ive said this before.  I wont be surprised if Mercedes actually ends up with only a dozen vehicles, yes 10-13 models, 3/4 of those CUVs and the E Class COMPLETELY GONE from  Canadian and American shores... 

     

    All automakers platform share.  Anyone that doesn't is a moron at business.   And really Mercedes is cutting 6 body styles off existing models, but they added an all new GLB, are adding all new EQC, EQS, EQE, etc, so they are making new stuff.  They need money to go after Tesla, and they don't need 6 or 7 convertibles in their line up when very few people buy enthusiast cars.  

    Edited by smk4565

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    3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All automakers platform share.  Anyone that doesn't is a moron at business.   And really Mercedes is cutting 6 body styles off existing models, but they added an all new GLB, are adding all new EQC, EQS, EQE, etc, so they are making new stuff.  They need money to go after Tesla, and they don't need 6 or 7 convertibles in their line up when very few people buy enthusiast cars.  

    EQC, EQS, are as much vaporware as the LYRIQ at this point. The EQE has not been seen or even probably started to be designed yet since they have had to delay their current 2 EV's.

    GLB is a cheap update of an existing model. They still cut 7 models from their lineup. They have clearly stated more cuts are coming. The days of enthusiast auto's and niche builds are over in this current pandemic global business world.

    MB, the Toyota/Chevrolet of Germany is now hurting and has done what the others did, overextend in building niche auto's that no longer can be supported by current sales. 

    MB will be shrinking the portfolio considerable over the next 18 - 24 months.

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    11 minutes ago, David said:

    Back on the Cadillac EV discussion, they have confirmed an Escalade EV. 

    • Cadillac LYRIQ EV
    • Cadillac Escalade EV

    One has to wonder what they will call all the other CUV/Cars for the full EV portfolio. I doubt they will stick with CT and XT.

    They said all Cadillacs will be EV eventually and all EV Cadillac's will have an "iq" name, so I guess CT, XT will all be replaced.  Not sure how they fit Escalade in that.  Which is why these naming conventions are dumb and they should go back to names.   Eldorado sounds a hell of a lot better tan Soniq, or Boutiq or Magnifiq, or whatever lame name they give to the electric sedan they make.  

    Also this Cadillac trying to be urban and techy to appeal to millennials on the coasts or to build Nurburring corner carvers isn't working.  Americans who buy Cadillacs want roomy cars, Cadillac built cramped interior ATS and CTS and scared them off, and they attracted zero German car snobs in the process.  Roomy, comfortable ride, quiet, torquey should be the pillars of Cadillac.  

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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    They said all Cadillacs will be EV eventually and all EV Cadillac's will have an "iq" name, so I guess CT, XT will all be replaced.  Not sure how they fit Escalade in that.  Which is why these naming conventions are dumb and they should go back to names.   Eldorado sounds a hell of a lot better tan Soniq, or Boutiq or Magnifiq, or whatever lame name they give to the electric sedan they make.  

    Also this Cadillac trying to be urban and techy to appeal to millennials on the coasts or to build Nurburring corner carvers isn't working.  Americans who buy Cadillacs want roomy cars, Cadillac built cramped interior ATS and CTS and scared them off, and they attracted zero German car snobs in the process.  Roomy, comfortable ride, quiet, torquey should be the pillars of Cadillac.  

    Yet not too long ago you were preaching how everyone wanted a Nuremburg carving auto. Seems you flip flop as bad as a politician working to keep their job.

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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All automakers platform share.  Anyone that doesn't is a moron at business.

    I aint talking about that kind...

    But...like @David  said...back to CADILLAC and the LYRIQ.

    No need to talk about Mercedes.  

     

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    2 minutes ago, David said:

    EQC, EQS, are as much vaporware as the LYRIQ at this point. The EQE has not been seen or even probably started to be designed yet since they have had to delay their current 2 EV's.

    GLB is a cheap update of an existing model. They still cut 7 models from their lineup. They have clearly stated more cuts are coming. The days of enthusiast auto's and niche builds are over in this current pandemic global business world.

    MB, the Toyota/Chevrolet of Germany is now hurting and has done what the others did, overextend in building niche auto's that no longer can be supported by current sales. 

    MB will be shrinking the portfolio considerable over the next 18 - 24 months.

    Cadillac cut ELR, XTS, ATS, CTS, XTS, SRX and CT6 from their lineup over a 4 year period.  That is 7 model lines and they are still in business.  I think Mercedes will survive cutting SLC and coupe/convertible  body styles from the C/E/S class.  Especially with rumor of a CLE coupe/convertible coming to back fill those cuts. 

    And they are cutting cars that don't sell, and replacing them with things like GLB that will sell more units by itself than the 7 that got cut.  That is a smart move and they are building what the market buys, which is why first half of 20201 they are #1 selling luxury brand.  If Mercedes is hurting at #1, I'd hate to be the guys in 5th or 6th place.

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    16 minutes ago, David said:

    Yet not too long ago you were preaching how everyone wanted a Nuremburg carving auto. Seems you flip flop as bad as a politician working to keep their job.

    Cadillac tried that strategy 15 years ago and it failed and they keep going for it and kept failing.  I want a Nurburgring carving auto, but most people don't buy cars like that.  And Porsche, BMW and Mercedes already have that market covered.  Cadillac needs to forge a new path.  Cadillac spent 15 years trying to be German, failed at it, time to try being American.  And interestingly enough the only successful product they made in the past 15 years is the most American and most like an old school Cadillac.

    With an aging population (and an overweight America) I think cars/SUVs that are easy to get in and out of (proper ride height) that are roomy and glide over bumps in our deteriorating roads and have good torque for smooth acceleration would do well.  EV's give you torque, roomy and quiet interior, so going al EV gets them half way there, if they can put together the other half and get the marketing.   Because not only has it been a long time since I rock and rolled, it has been a long time since Cadillac made a good ad.  

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Cadillac cut ELR, XTS, ATS, CTS, XTS, SRX and CT6 from their lineup over a 4 year period.  That is 7 model lines...

    You listed 'XTS' twice, so your list would be '6'. The ATS and CTS are still right there in the catalog, they just have new generations with altered names, so your list drops to '4'. SRX was replaced with a new generation product with an altered name... so your list drops to '3'. Now add back in the brand new models XT4 and XT6. That's a net cut of ONE.
    Don't you need to be decent at math to work in a loan department?

    Quote

    {mercedes is} cutting cars that don't sell...

    Those would be "failures" by your definition.

    Cadillac tried that strategy 15 years ago and it failed and they keep going for it and kept failing.


    You mean one of the most brutal & acclaimed performance sports sedans of all time? The one that burst into the German segment, up-ended their comfort levels and stole their market share? That 'strategy'?

    Edited by balthazar
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    Cadillac didn’t steal any market share, they have less now than they did in 2005.  And Cadillac left the middle and upper sedan segments and now compete with CLA and C-class. 
     

    If Cadillac’s strategy had been working they wouldn’t change leaders, change the names, change the product line, etc every 5 years.

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    ^ Really? What was Cadillac's high performance sports sedan market share prior to the appearance of the CTS-V?

    When you have a brand that's never offered their own interpretation of such a vehicle, then -once it arrives and had been around for going on 20 years now- garners instant cred and even eclipses the established players... that's the OPPOSITE of 'failed'. Mercedes / BMW have to not only acknowledge, but keep pace with the Cadillac V-series. That's the very definition of 'success'.

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    I think this looks pretty dang good outside of the upper rear section with that awkward light. I think the rest looks pretty awesome. Granted, this is only 80-85% the finished product, I think it is a great start for a nearly finished product. 

    On 8/6/2020 at 8:46 PM, smk4565 said:

     Seems like this will be a 2023 model, so it is a ways off.  I don't know why they would show their hand that far out, and I think what they have isn't better than what Tesla was selling a couple years ago.  

    You would have thought they'd show the Hummer EV first. I mean that's supposed to be out next year or some sht. 

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    On 8/7/2020 at 8:41 AM, balthazar said:

    Didn't it take 2 years for Tesla between the showing of the Model 3 to being able to buy it?
    Hell, hasn't the M3 (a trim and engine upgrade on the same model) taken 1.5 years to go on sale from when a new 3-series did? This sort of time span is certainly not unprecedented.

    I don't think that part is weird. I think it is weird they showed this before the Hummer because that supposedly goes on sale next year, I believe. 

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    5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I think this looks pretty dang good outside of the upper rear section with that awkward light. I think the rest looks pretty awesome. Granted, this is only 80-85% the finished product, I think it is a great start for a nearly finished product. 

    Agree, over all I think it looks good, I kinda wonder if they felt the upper half of the rear is what would be tweaked based on consumer feedback and could end up being more upright SUV like.

    Honestly, like Rivian, I think Cadillac could easily have a more upright 1990's like Suburban rear back and dump the stupid Coupe type rear end.

    Something like this:

    image.png

    1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

    I don't think that part is weird. I think it is weird they showed this before the Hummer because that supposedly goes on sale next year, I believe. 

    Agreed, The Hummer by GMC should have been shown before this as it is supposed to be on the dealer lots next summer.

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    On 8/7/2020 at 5:25 PM, David said:

    Yet I doubt the majority here myself included could tell these were E class and not S or C class.

    Having Family DNA is one thing, having all levels of a product line blur into each other is another. MB has blurred all levels badly.

    Hahaha you chose a a car with the same exact front fascia. Of course you can tell it is all the E Class. I can see how you might think it was all the C or S Class as well but you can definitely tell it is the same car and not a mixture of the three. 

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    5 hours ago, balthazar said:

    ^ Really? What was Cadillac's high performance sports sedan market share prior to the appearance of the CTS-V?

    When you have a brand that's never offered their own interpretation of such a vehicle, then -once it arrives and had been around for going on 20 years now- garners instant cred and even eclipses the established players... that's the OPPOSITE of 'failed'. Mercedes / BMW have to not only acknowledge, but keep pace with the Cadillac V-series. That's the very definition of 'success'.

    I meant Cadillac's whole brand market share has shrunk over the past 15 years in the USA.  

    CTS-V and CT6 are now gone, so I guess they have 0% market share against 5 and 7-series and E and S-class.

    Now that the luxury market is 70-75% SUV, performance SUV is going to be the measuring stick, and Cadillac doesn't have a player there.  Essentially Cadillac is back to the 90s with a slew of front drivers pitted against more agile, better handling rear drive Europeans 

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    1 hour ago, David said:

    Agree, over all I think it looks good, I kinda wonder if they felt the upper half of the rear is what would be tweaked based on consumer feedback and could end up being more upright SUV like.

    Honestly, like Rivian, I think Cadillac could easily have a more upright 1990's like Suburban rear back and dump the stupid Coupe type rear end.

    Something like this:

    image.png

    Agreed, The Hummer by GMC should have been shown before this as it is supposed to be on the dealer lots next summer.

    What car designers don't seem to get is people started walking away from sedans to get SUVs because they wanted more cargo space and more head room.  So their answer to make sedans desirable was to make sedans lower and sleeker with sloped rooflines, and then more people left sedans for SUVs.  Now they are making the SUVs lower and sleeker with sloped roof lines, next people will go buy vans since SUVs will have useless back seats and cargo room.  And come 2030 we'll see the new Ford Transit Fastback Coupe combing the utility of a van with a attractive fastback design of a 68 Mustang.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    I meant Cadillac's whole brand market share has shrunk over the past 15 years in the USA.

    No-ooooo, you stated :

    Quote

    Nurburgring carving auto.... Cadillac spent 15 years trying to be German, failed at it


    That means only 1 thing; a high performance sports sedan. What's the Nurburing auto at mercedes, the sprinter? The CLA? No-ooooo, it's AMG-spec sedans.

    My point stands; Cadillac came into a segment they never were before, and immediately rose to Tier 1 with their American interpretation of an uber-hi-po sports sedan. Where MB / BMW had the segment to themselves (maybe a few other stragglers), Cadillac took MARKET SHARE from them (it was 0% prior to) in what you seem to think is the Most Important segment (volume, here, be damned). By your constantly shifting definition; SUCCESS not 'failure'.

    18 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    What car designers don't seem to get is people started walking away from sedans to get SUVs because they wanted more cargo space and more head room.  So their answer to make sedans desirable was to make sedans lower and sleeker with sloped rooflines, and then more people left sedans for SUVs.

    It wasn't headroom. Family sedans are taller now than they've been since the 1950s. A modern camry is 3 inches taller than my '64 full-size Pontiac.

    It WAS cargo room to a degree, most definitely interior width (damned fat consoles), and vision height. Rooflines are not the issue.

    Edited by balthazar

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    I mean Cadillac with the whole line up spent the better part of 15 trying to copy the Germans and that didn't really work.  If CTS and CT6 were successful, they'd still be here.  And Germans again pretty much have the mid and large luxury segments to themselves, with the exception of the tiny volume of Genesis and Jaguar and the Lexus LS, since GS is dead.

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    I mean Cadillac with the whole line up


    ^ We literally weren't talking about that, tho.
     

    -sigh- : CTS is still here, it's called the CT5. Same exact size & configuration. How are you so confoozled on this point?

    Were you likewise confoozed when the MB 430S was cancelled and a S430 took it's place?

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    21 hours ago, balthazar said:

     


    ^ We literally weren't talking about that, tho.
     

    -sigh- : CTS is still here, it's called the CT5. Same exact size & configuration. How are you so confoozled on this point?

    Were you likewise confoozed when the MB 430S was cancelled and a S430 took it's place?

    The CT5 starts $10k lower than the CTS, and it is 3 inches shorter which doesn't make much difference.   The CT5 has roughly the same base price as a CLA, and a CT5-V starts about $5k lower than a CLA45.  The CLA45 is also faster than the CT5-V in a straight line or around a track.  So I wouldn't say the CT5 is in the E-class's segment, it it's a CLA fighter now.

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    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    The CT5 starts $10k lower than the CTS, and it is 3 inches shorter which doesn't make much difference.   The CT5 has roughly the same base price as a CLA, and a CT5-V starts about $5k lower than a CLA45.  The CLA45 is also faster than the CT5-V in a straight line or around a track.  So I wouldn't say the CT5 is in the E-class's segment, it it's a CLA fighter now.

    It's 1.7 inches shorter, not "3" [195.5" vs 193.8"]. Numbers.

    Of course, in this context you are correct : neither 1.7", nor the fictitious 3", makes a difference.
    So why bring up the stat?

    CT5-V goes all the way to $70K, and the Blackwing hasn't even been released yet. As discussed, base MSRP is meaningless. Cadillac literally doesn't build any cars at base MSRP.

    Regardless, the point, which seems to blow by you like dandelion fluff at 60 MPH, is that that Cadillac which you claim was canceled, WASN'T. It's right here :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-12 at 9.04.15 PM.png

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:


    CT5-V goes all the way to $70K, and the Blackwing hasn't even been released yet. As discussed, base MSRP is meaningless. Cadillac literally doesn't build any cars at base MSRP.

    Regardless, the point, which seems to blow by you like dandelion fluff at 60 MPH, is that that Cadillac which you claim was canceled, WASN'T. It's right here :

    Screen Shot 2020-08-12 at 9.04.15 PM.png

    The CLA goes to over $76,000.  And the CLA45 does the Nurburgring ring in 7:42 which is the same as the estimated time of the 640 hp CTS-V so it no doubt would spank the CT5-V.   If we do get a Blackwing CT5 I imagine it will edge out the CLA45, but not the bigger AMG’s.  

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    USA-1

    Posted (edited)

    Nice write-up as usual @William Maley, found some great pics with good detail as well.

    This Lyriq looks pretty sleek. I like how it's keeping the Cadillac family design cues but stretching it some. The iconic long vertical LED light piping in front that will now function as headlamps are still slick, but also very evident so you know it's a Caddy coming at you or going down the road. I'm not crazy about the greenhouse of this pre production model with the sloped back-end, definitely needs a more upright look to it and the actual production model will most likely have more of it for interior headroom and general space. 

     

    It's comical to me how an uninformed individual on here gets into bringing up the POS FWD based Merc CLA trying to compare it to a CTS-V (hilarious I won't even go there) or a CT5, the CLA is a garbage economy car, ask anyone who's owned one. CLA is nowhere close to what a CT5 is as a RWD based sedan with a much better built chassis. I drove a white 2020 CT5 with the Premium Luxury trim for the day a couple of weeks ago. The CT5 with the 3.0TT is very quick with a very quiet interior and refined ride that was firm in Sport mode, but not harsh and smooth in Tour mode. The 10 spd is butter smooth with crisp shifts as well (love the GM 10 spd in every vehicle I've driven with it, they nailed it), the 3.0TT V6 with the PL trim or V-Series is where it's at.

    Blackwing CT4 and 5 are going to be mean machines! Can't wait. 

    Edited by USA-1
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    On 8/10/2020 at 11:02 PM, smk4565 said:

    They said all Cadillacs will be EV eventually and all EV Cadillac's will have an "iq" name, so I guess CT, XT will all be replaced.  Not sure how they fit Escalade in that.  Which is why these naming conventions are dumb and they should go back to names.   Eldorado sounds a hell of a lot better tan Soniq, or Boutiq or Magnifiq, or whatever lame name they give to the electric sedan they make.  

    Also this Cadillac trying to be urban and techy to appeal to millennials on the coasts or to build Nurburring corner carvers isn't working.  Americans who buy Cadillacs want roomy cars, Cadillac built cramped interior ATS and CTS and scared them off, and they attracted zero German car snobs in the process.  Roomy, comfortable ride, quiet, torquey should be the pillars of Cadillac.  

     

    On 8/11/2020 at 10:15 PM, smk4565 said:

    I mean Cadillac with the whole line up spent the better part of 15 trying to copy the Germans and that didn't really work.  If CTS and CT6 were successful, they'd still be here.  And Germans again pretty much have the mid and large luxury segments to themselves, with the exception of the tiny volume of Genesis and Jaguar and the Lexus LS, since GS is dead.

    The simple question is this: Why should a luxury car/CUV buyer switch to Cadillac over Lexus and the Germans?  If I knew what Cadillac's unique selling point was, then I would push that and somehow get luxury buyers to ditch German iron in a heartbeat.  Why are all of Cadillac CUVs FWD?  Simple: the original SRX was not the great seller Cadillac needed it to be so they switched it to FWD and sales soared.  That is why all of the XTs are FWD appliances.  Emulating the Germans was a failure where it matters most: the sales charts.  What Cadillac REALLY needs is a USP that will crush the Germans.  Only problem: half of US car buyers will not even consider buying or leasing GM product whatsoever.

    As for the Lyriq, Cadillac really needs a plan to take back market share right now.  Especially before the Lyriq and other Cadillac EVs are released to the public.

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    5 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

     

    The simple question is this: Why should a luxury car/CUV buyer switch to Cadillac over Lexus and the Germans? 

    Well, there are existing GM appliance owners (Chevy/GMC/Buick) that GM hopes will aspire to Cadillac and move up.  That would be the majority of sales vs conquest sales? 

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    Consumers do not 'move up' thru an existing brand, but perhaps they do within a corporation.

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    Rumor now is that the Lyriq will start under $60k.  That’s a good move but we still need to see the final version.  But price is key to this car, they have to make the pricing look like a good deal to get people to buy a Lyriq over an XT5 or a rival brand’s product.

    And maybe GM is willing to lose money on them  because they need CAFE numbers and want to keep cranking out Silverados and big SUVs, and the CAFE helpers like Sonic, Cruze, etc are gone.

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