Cadillac V-Series:  Feeling cute, might come back and tear you a new ass later, IDK

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

38 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

It is unofficial, but apparently the blackwing is in the CT5 in the article picture.  It's less power than the old CTS-V, but at least it's not a "truck engine" right?

44 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Me thinks that GM thinks Chevrolet is the performance brand at GM.

I don't expect much from these higher performance V cars, because GM plays everything really safe and how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?  I think they just want to build more crossovers like Trailblazer and Encore GX instead because that is what people buy.

Everyone is building more crossovers because that’s what people are buying. 

Also, if building a mid-engine Vette is “GM playing it safe”, then I guess that’s a good thing. I also see that they are not “playing it safe” here. They clearly have plans for Cadillac performance models that go beyond this new V series designation. That’s just more speculation without proof from you. 

58 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It is unofficial, but apparently the blackwing is in the CT5 in the article picture.  It's less power than the old CTS-V, but at least it's not a "truck engine" right?

CT4-V and CT5-V should be the blackwing V8.  The "V" cars they introduced the other day should be V-sport or the sport trim engine, although I hate the term "sport" as a trim level (at least when written on a car), that is something you see on a Camry or a Crossover, you don't see a Mustang Sport or a 911 Sport because people know it is a sports car, they don't have to advertise it.  

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Everyone is building more crossovers because that’s what people are buying. 

 

Also, if building a mid-engine Vette is “GM playing it safe”, then I guess that’s a good thing. I also see that they are not “playing it safe” here. They clearly have plans for Cadillac performance models that go beyond this new V series designation. That’s just more speculation without proof from you. 

We shall see, but I have said for over a decade that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s.   Then give Cadillac a $100k + sports car that is above the Vette, give them 2 if you want, but the ultimate GM performance car should be at Cadillac.

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

I also think Performance crossovers will be on the rise because crossovers are what people want, but people will still want horsepower and performance.  That is where the market will go, millennials won't buy sports coupes when they get older and have the disposable income, they'll buy stuff like a Macan or Cayenne because want a sports car, but  they need "active lifestyle" crossovers to never haul crap they don't have or need a 3rd row seat for that 1 time a year they have to take their 1 kid's friends to Cheek - E- Cheese for a birthday party.

20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mustang Sport or a 911 Sport because people know it is a sports car, they don't have to advertise it.  

You  see it on a Camaro .   Super Sport.  Rallye Sport.

Rallye Sport?

Vat is dis Rallye Sport you speak of?  

Ah yes...from 1973 to 2019.  Well..Racing Sport in THIS case...

15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.

Nope. That is NOT what Cadillac is all about. I guess Cadillac could have a super sport car above the Corvette...

but before they do that...

they need this

21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s. 

Where did you ever get this zany idea that Corvettes are attainable?

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS  expensive...

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS about being the fastest machines they could be...

Top of the line Vettes have always been about state of the art engineering...

Stop with this BS you keep on ragging about Corvette, man! 

You KNOW its not true what you say...so why you say it?

37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

Again...who says that Cadillac cannot be both?

Mercedes is doing that exactly...

Problem for Cadillac is that when they should have had an Evoq  in their line-up, they fudged it up big time with the ELR.  They then could have had the Cien in their line-up eventually had they NOT fudged up the ELR.  They could had done the Ciel at the same time as the ELR, and if they'd done the Ciel right, then the El Miraj would have been with us too.  But chances are they'd flub the Ciel as well...

But now...that ship has sailed. The BMW wannabe  aspirations have long since passed with folk buying cars.

As of NOW...people want old skool Cadillacs. Proof?  The Escalade just keeps on steam rolling the competition....

But...if Cadillac embraces their past and they do old skool the right way...then who says Cadillac cant do sports cars?

Listen...you do have an honest opinion about why Cadillac flubs it, but you also go overboard with it...

Tone it done...stop being so hypocritical...

6 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Nope. That is NOT what Cadillac is all about. I guess Cadillac could have a super sport car above the Corvette...

but before they do that...

they need this

 

Where did you ever get this zany idea that Corvettes are attainable?

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS  expensive...

Top of the line Vettes were ALWAYS about being the fastest machines they could be...

Top of the line Vettes have always been about state of the art engineering...

Stop with this BS you keep on ragging about Corvette, man! 

You KNOW its not true what you say...so why you say it?

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

3 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

I suggest you learn your automotive history...

Mercedes isn’t doing what Lincoln, Rolls do or what 90s Lexus did in being all about comfort.  They have always been about engineering, safety, technology and they mostly built Autobahn cruisers.  Buying AMG 20 or so years ago and now having the best racing team in the world has let them make performance cars in addition to the same car they always had.

Cadillac doesn’t have a brand identity.  They have a 5800 lb truck as the symbol of their brand then make a compact rear dive sedan and claim every gram of weight matters and weight savings was #1 goal, huh???   Why aren’t their sedans roomy and comfortable with a lot of torque like an Escalade is?  This strategy of cloning a 3-series and cloning a Lexus RX hasn’t worked because it leads to no focus, no brand mission.

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

I suggest you learn your automotive history...

 

 

Which Corvette was priced even money with a Ferrari or Lamborghini? 

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

how many high performance Cadillacs would they sell?

OMG- this has been a constant trumpet solo with you- "just build a really high priced version, there are people with money that'll buy it!"

When it's an hi-zoot package on a german car, it's all fuzzy baby peaches & sunshine. When a similar hi-zoot package is presented for a Cadillac, it's always 'sales sales sales', (meanwhile no body buys the german hi-zoot pack).

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

We shall see, but I have said for over a decade that Cadillac should have a sports car above the Corvette.  I am also a believer that the Corvette should be front engine, rear drive, turbo V6 base, V8 Stingray/Grand Sport and 600 hp V8 Z06 as the range topper and that would live in the $50-90k range against Supra, Boxster/Cayman, Jag F-type, etc.  Corvette should be an attainable sports car as has been it's mission since the 1950s.   Then give Cadillac a $100k + sports car that is above the Vette, give them 2 if you want, but the ultimate GM performance car should be at Cadillac.

The one way I would disagree is if Cadillac were to go to a Rolls-Royce style mission where they are not about performance and don't want to be "sporty" and are solely focused on being about comfort and luxury and pillow ride.  If that was the brand mission then a Cadillac sports car would make no sense.

 

I also think Performance crossovers will be on the rise because crossovers are what people want, but people will still want horsepower and performance.  That is where the market will go, millennials won't buy sports coupes when they get older and have the disposable income, they'll buy stuff like a Macan or Cayenne because want a sports car, but  they need "active lifestyle" crossovers to never haul crap they don't have or need a 3rd row seat for that 1 time a year they have to take their 1 kid's friends to Cheek - E- Cheese for a birthday party.

“Should be, could be”. Only you are so concerned about it. Clearly GM isn’t and it hasn’t been a problem. You’d just find a way to slam a $100K Cadillac sportscar anyway. 

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Which Corvette was priced even money with a Ferrari or Lamborghini? 

Corvettes were sold before there even was  Lambos for sale...two decades before, almost...

Corvettes, the high end Corvettes, were always priced as high as Cadillacs...

Cadillacs, were always the highest priced vehicles on the road...of the mass produced variety...and not hand made...like Rolls Royces...and not limited produced...like I said...mass produced...up until the early 1970s...

Yeah...I know...you said exotics.  But that is what Rolls and Ferraris and Lambos are...

A Corvette was never an exotic....its DOMESTIC...

It dont matter, this was at a time when Ferraris sold 50 cars a year...or so...

Corvettes were always about being mass produced. Corvettes sold by the thousands...

Corvettes were never about exclusivity.  THAT is what makes an exotic car, an exotic car.  And it being a foreign car...you know...not American Domestic Market...

But...Corvettes were just about as expensive as expensive could be for a DOMESTIC product...

Corvettes were American exotics as like if a European or Middle Eastern buyer wanted to buy a Corvette, he would most definitely pay like he was buying a Ferrari to have his Corvette in his European or Middle Eastern country back in the day...

Like I said...learn your automotive history and stop trying to weasel your nonsense with me...

39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Mercedes isn’t doing what Lincoln, Rolls do or what 90s Lexus did in being all about comfort.  They have always been about engineering, safety, technology and they mostly built Autobahn cruisers.  Buying AMG 20 or so years ago and now having the best racing team in the world has let them make performance cars in addition to the same car they always had.

Cadillac doesn’t have a brand identity.  They have a 5800 lb truck as the symbol of their brand then make a compact rear dive sedan and claim every gram of weight matters and weight savings was #1 goal, huh???   Why aren’t their sedans roomy and comfortable with a lot of torque like an Escalade is?  This strategy of cloning a 3-series and cloning a Lexus RX hasn’t worked because it leads to no focus, no brand mission.

So basically you’re saying only Mercedes can be all things to all people because that’s pretty much what you’re saying here and perfectly illustrates the fallacy in debating with a one brand fan. No matter what, you give excuses to Mercedes that are not allowed for others. 

NAH - mercedes can't decide what their mission / definition is. They're arguably the most lost : super high end lux vehicles that sell in a trickle, mass mainstream production of FWD shitboxes, and unbearably utilitarian cargo boxes / a rebadged pickup truck, none of which are separated by badging, or dealerships or advertising. Yeah- they make money, but so did the Pet Rock.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

If Cadillac goes all luxury (like Lincoln) then they don’t need a sports car.  But if they are going to play the performance luxury game like the Germans then they should have a sports car.

And yes the Corvette has been expensive, $30k in the late 1980s and $39k base in 1999 which both are like costing  $60k today.  I get they aren’t attainable for all, $60k is an expensive car, heck $35k is a lot for a car.  But the Corvette was never priced like an exotic, they were always in range for middle or upper middle class, you didn’t need to be in the top 1% to afford one.

I just love how you expect a Vette to basically stay the same price while literally everything else has gone up. There were Mercedes models that were “cheap” back then that aren’t now. Where’s their criticism? Oh that’s right. 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. It should be considered shameful that the Vette shames much more expensive sport cars from Germany in terms of performance but we will just ignore that so that you can criticize something else about GM. 

8 hours ago, balthazar said:

OMG- this has been a constant trumpet solo with you- "just build a really high priced version, there are people with money that'll buy it!"

When it's an hi-zoot package on a german car, it's all fuzzy baby peaches & sunshine. When a similar hi-zoot package is presented for a Cadillac, it's always 'sales sales sales', (meanwhile no body buys the german hi-zoot pack).

I think they should build a Cadillac sports car above Corvette even if it doesn’t sell just for brand image.  I would build it if I were in charge at GM but I am not.  

My point isn’t hat statement was more about how many V8 CT5’s would they sell in today’s market where sedans aren’t selling.  I also said the CT5-V should have the blackwing V8.  But they might sell 500-1000 Blackwing CT5 per year, and I think GM just doesn’t care about selling that little of volume when they can put money behind the crossover of the month and sell 100,000 of those per year.

Which is why Cadillac needs rear drive crossovers because a Blackwing V8 SUV would out sell a Blackwing V8 sedan.

7 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

I just love how you expect a Vette to basically stay the same price while literally everything else has gone up. There were Mercedes models that were “cheap” back then that aren’t now. Where’s their criticism? Oh that’s right. 

 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. It should be considered shameful that the Vette shames much more expensive sport cars from Germany in terms of performance but we will just ignore that so that you can criticize something else about GM. 

I don’t think the Corvette should stay at the same price I think it should stay in the same place in the market.  Much like the Miata or Mustang since they came out have been in the same place in the market.  Prices obviously rice over time.  What I don’t think they should do is move the Corvette up market into the $100k plus range into Audi R8 or Aston Martin pricing because the Chevrolet dealership experience isn’t going to be the Audi or Ferrari or Aston Martin experience.  And it would go against the Corvette’s mission.

Cadillac exists for a reason, expensive cars should go there.  

Mustang has repeatedly been WAAAY above its original Price tier.

8 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

 

For the record, the Vette starts at $55,900 which still makes a value in the sports car world. Stop exaggerating with this $60K nonsense. 

That's the C7, though...will be interesting to see the starting price point for the C8...

24 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Mustang has repeatedly been WAAAY above its original Price tier.

Well these new Shelby Mustangs are too high like in price,  the 4 cylinder ones and even the 5.0’s that are $40k are in line with where Mustang should be.  Trying to sell Mustangs for Corvette or 911 money is stupid, at that point make a Shelby sports car that competes with the Nissan GT-R and that crowd.

3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I don’t think the Corvette should stay at the same price I think it should stay in the same place in the market.  Much like the Miata or Mustang since they came out have been in the same place in the market.  Prices obviously rice over time.  What I don’t think they should do is move the Corvette up market into the $100k plus range into Audi R8 or Aston Martin pricing because the Chevrolet dealership experience isn’t going to be the Audi or Ferrari or Aston Martin experience.  And it would go against the Corvette’s mission.

Cadillac exists for a reason, expensive cars should go there.  

And that’s your problem. You think it should stay in this imaginary marketplace that never existed for it in the first place. You obviously don’t know what the Vettes mission is. And if Cadillac exists for more expensive models, what is Mercedes excuse for $30K FWD compact cars and Metris vansin an otherwise Uber luxury brand that share the same lots as their $300K+ models?

2 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

That's the C7, though...will be interesting to see the starting price point for the C8...

I know but since the C8 isn’t out yet, I’m going with known numbers.