Rumorpile: Dodge Dart To Get SRT-ified

The Dart is very much on my list of new cars I would consider buying.

Nice addition to the Mopar lineup. But don't count on the power rating to exceed the Caliber SRT. Afterall the Caliber uses a 2.4 liter mill. Plus, if the new car is lighter it may not need as much power to have equal or superior performance.

We all knew this was coming. Doesn't make me any less excited.

dammit, Dodge is becoming what Pontiac should have been.

dammit, Dodge is becoming what Pontiac should have been.

Oh really? In 4 years you guys will be comparing the Dart unfavorably with its replacement and calling it a POS. No thanks. Pontiac should have stayed Firebird-GTO-Solstice-G8... (and marketed properly)... these will be remembered fondly 20 years later... which is like Dodge with only the Viper, Charger and Challenger.

I wonder if it will be AWD? My son likes the looks and would be willing ot have a Dart SRT4 AWD, otherwise he is going to stick with the tight fitting to large people subaru WRX.

Hope America finally gets on this small turbo AWD for better handling idea.

Just think if the Cruze was a performance AWD car or the AWD Terrain had a proper Turbo 4 as the new Terrain Typhoon.

I wonder if it will be AWD? My son likes the looks and would be willing ot have a Dart SRT4 AWD, otherwise he is going to stick with the tight fitting to large people subaru WRX.

I don't know at moment. Trying to think if the Dart's platform can fit an AWD system. For now, I think its safe to assume the Dart SRT4 will be FWD.

I don't know at moment. Trying to think if the Dart's platform can fit an AWD system. For now, I think its safe to assume the Dart SRT4 will be FWD.

CSUW (as well as the related C-Evo, D-Evo, C-Wide, and CUSW Plus platforms) can fit an all-wheel drive system.

There's a chance the Dart SRT-4 can be all-wheel drive, but it's more than likely safe to assume it will be front-wheel drive, probably with a limited slip differential.

dammit, Dodge is becoming what Pontiac should have been.

Firebird-GTO-Solstice-G8... (and marketed properly)... these will be remembered fondly 20 years later...

No they won't. What will be remembered is more than a quarter century of lameness and contrived attempts in making lousy W-Bodies look appealing. And horrid design philosophies. And Aztek's.

In contrast, this car will be remembered fondly. Because it's deliciously attractive and sporty. How many Pontiac's since 1973 can use both of those adjectives at the same time?

I don't know at moment. Trying to think if the Dart's platform can fit an AWD system. For now, I think its safe to assume the Dart SRT4 will be FWD.

CSUW (as well as the related C-Evo, D-Evo, C-Wide, and CUSW Plus platforms) can fit an all-wheel drive system.

There's a chance the Dart SRT-4 can be all-wheel drive, but it's more than likely safe to assume it will be front-wheel drive, probably with a limited slip differential.

I still think they would have a market for the youth by offering the SRT4 in AWD. Guess am gonna have to start a letter writting campaign. Good thing for computer bots to flood the email of Chrysler

Firebird-GTO-Solstice-G8... (and marketed properly)... these will be remembered fondly 20 years later...

No they won't.

I'll agree with SA and say that I think those four particular Pontiacs will be remembered fondly.

The Firebird (including the Trans Am) was the sole model that gave the brand any shred of enthusiast credibility during many of Pontiac's dark years. The Holden-cum-GTO may not have been what buyers were expecting styling-wise, but it proved itself to be a solidly built boulevard-crusing coupe with decent performance and driving dynamics to boot. The Solstice wowed the press, especially in concept form, and arguably became one of the best looking Pontiacs to be built in decades. Yeah, yeah, I know you couldn't stuff a dead body in the trunk without first chopping it's legs and arms off, but that's not why you buy a roadster in the first place. The Solstice GXP also was something of a performance bargain. The G8 also was mostly praised by the press and the GXP version took the title of the fastest Pontiac ever produced.

With depreciation included as a factor, the Firebird/Trans Am and the GTO are seen as performance bargains for what you can pick up a used example for. The same will be true of the G8 and Solstice in a few years.

If there's anything seriously wrong about those four cars is that they weren't advertised properly. Those cars were at the beating heart of the Pontiac brand and GM chose to neglect them. You neglect the heart and it'll stop beating. That's exactly what happened.

Stop and look at the fifth-gen Camaro as an example of what spectacular advertising can do for a car. Facing facts, the first Bay-directed Transformers film was pretty much one long advertisement for the upcoming Camaro that came out two whole years before anyone could actually buy it. Then, when people could buy one, another Transformers film came out.

If the current Camaro was advertised in the same lackluster fashion that GM used for the fourth-gen model as well as Pontiac, I don't think it would be selling 60,000 units a year.

What will be remembered is more than a quarter century of lameness and contrived attempts in making lousy W-Bodies look appealing. And horrid design philosophies. And Aztek's.

Hold up and think in a broader scope for a moment.

Say, for example, you have a very good friend that has passed away. When you think about that friend who used to stick by you through thick and thin when he was alive, you're going to think of all the good times you shared with him and the great things he stood for. You'll think about the postive acomplishments he made when he was still living. You'll choose to remember his best attributes fondly. You won't choose to think about his flaws. You may accept them and maybe even acknowledge them in a conversation, but you'll never focus on them.

... What I'm trying to say though my incoherant rambling is that there are people who don't focus on all of the terrible cars Pontiac has built over the years. They saw Pontiac the same way that you see that good friend. They could see the good the brand had to offer, even when the brand was circling the drain. They aren't exactly denying the bad, they're choosing not to focus on it. After all, no one said you have to let a few bad apples spoil the entire barrel.

The things you've listed are also flaws that in no way spoiled those four cars although they did spoil 80 to 90 percent of the line up.

Going back to styling since it essentially comprised two of your three complaints, when Pontiacs were slathered with washboard cladding, cartoonish front-ends, and random tumorous growths, the Firebird remained mostly unadorned. As I'm sure the resident ex-Opel employee that trolls these forums will explain to you, the problem with the GTO's styling wasn't that it was horribly bland or hideous, it was just growing old. The Solstice was a clean design that relied on proportions to make a bold statement. The G8 was again barnacle-free and rather handsome.

In contrast, this car will be remembered fondly. Because it's deliciously attractive and sporty. How many Pontiac's since 1973 can use both of those adjectives at the same time?

I think it's too early to make this call honestly. The Dart is a great car so far and probably one of the best American compact cars ever built, but it's also a car that we've yet to experience in person.

In any case, this is a thread about a new Dodge and here we are talking about Pontiac. We've been down this road far too many times. Let's live and let die and stop picking scabs only to rub salt in the open wounds. What's the fun in that? (I'm not just directing that at you, but everyone else.)

I still think they would have a market for the youth by offering the SRT4 in AWD. Guess am gonna have to start a letter writting campaign. Good thing for computer bots to flood the email of Chrysler

All-wheel drive would be nice, but I'm not sure if it's really needed. The Neon SRT-4 was a strong seller and it was only front-wheel drive.

dammit, Dodge is becoming what Pontiac should have been.

Oh really? In 4 years you guys will be comparing the Dart unfavorably with its replacement and calling it a POS. No thanks. Pontiac should have stayed Firebird-GTO-Solstice-G8... (and marketed properly)... these will be remembered fondly 20 years later... which is like Dodge with only the Viper, Charger and Challenger.

the dart has a lot going for it. it is the first love child between fiat and Chrysler. that right there will have it remembered for many years. its good looks are a huge improvement over the caliber. and an SRT edition would draw those who thought this was just another econocar in. show me some modern Pontiac with these good looks, this hype, the sport to go with it as well as its history making status and i can say you are right.

Sure, sure. 1983 C&D Top Ten and MT Car of the Year winner AMC/Renault Alliance. It was talked about all around at the time. Will the Dart win both awards?

I'm not saying the Dart is a bad car... it has one of the best taillight treatments in the last decade, even if its copied from the Charger. I am making a comment that you new-car-fanboys have a VERY short attention span and will move on once something more shiny comes along.

I made the comment. I stand by it. C&G, Internet Archive and Google have archived it. We've revisit in 4~5 years and 20 years to see how it pans out.

dammit, Dodge is becoming what Pontiac should have been.

Oh really? In 4 years you guys will be comparing the Dart unfavorably with its replacement and calling it a POS. No thanks. Pontiac should have stayed Firebird-GTO-Solstice-G8... (and marketed properly)... these will be remembered fondly 20 years later... which is like Dodge with only the Viper, Charger and Challenger.

I'd have to disagree. we knew the Caliber was crap when it came out because it was a (bad) attempt at making a mini Magnum. We knew it was ugly. That's why it didn't sell. We knew the Sunfire and Grand Am weren't going to sell. we were all disappointed/frustrated when the G6 came out looking incredibly boring and nothing like the concept.

We do however know what the Giulietta is like it's been tested by several media outlets; it's gotten favorable reviews. We do know that this is an arguably attractive design (As opposed to the Caliber which is arguably NOT), that is similar to another car (Charger) that has a measure of attractiveness.

Look at a Charger. Sure, it's not a '62 Ferrari 250 GT, or a Jaguar E-Type but yet at the same time one is drawn to it because it has its own visual appeal. The Dart borrows some of that, and then struts its own stuff. true we don't know if the Dart will turn out to be a total piece, but it looks far more promising than any Caliberneonshadow that came before it. Compared to its predecessors, you see my point on the Dart, don't you?

Producing ONLY Firebird/G8/Solstice/GTO would not have been a viable alternative for Pontiac. That would have made it too niche, and would have seriously hurt its sales chances, especially if it's limited to sports cars like this (which, don't forget, tend to be rather expensive). Pontiac needed viable mainstream vehicles to keep it afloat. The problem is they could have made a compact and small-midsizer that could still be sporty instead of just "look" sporty and just be a crappy Aveo underneath (and just barely underneath, remember?) Pontiac could have made competitive product that could be mainstream and affordable, but they didn't because:

..bombshell..

GM didn't give a $h!. they thought they were invincible. They thought they could sell subpar product and stay on top of the heap forever and ever. but then when it hit the fan, their countermeasures were too little too late. this is why we don't have a Pontiac anymore.

And I'm hardly a new-car fanboy. I'll point out for instance, that I still own an almost seven year old Cobalt (that I baby to death, mind you) and dislike Cruzes. I still own a 15 year old Camaro, and while i still want a new one, I'm not willing to give up my old one (It's like my firstborn son).

the dart has a lot going for it. it is the first love child between fiat and Chrysler. that right there will have it remembered for many years. its good looks are a huge improvement over the caliber. and an SRT edition would draw those who thought this was just another econocar in. show me some modern Pontiac with these good looks, this hype, the sport to go with it as well as its history making status and i can say you are right.

well, it does fit your criteria.

It's just a shame that this alone couldn't save Pontiac.

Sure, sure. 1983 C&D Top Ten and MT Car of the Year winner AMC/Renault Alliance. It was talked about all around at the time. Will the Dart win both awards?

I'm not saying the Dart is a bad car... it has one of the best taillight treatments in the last decade, even if its copied from the Charger. I am making a comment that you new-car-fanboys have a VERY short attention span and will move on once something more shiny comes along.

I made the comment. I stand by it. C&G, Internet Archive and Google have archived it. We've revisit in 4~5 years and 20 years to see how it pans out.

ok not sure you should group everyone in that category. i dont wet myself every time a new car comes along. i mean sheesh i am in love with my Intrepid. can i see myself buying and loving the Dart? yea, but i love old just as much as i love new.

as far as the solstice comparing to the dart i think thats the closest Pontiac will get but its still not close enough for me. it does not have the history behind it. sure its got looks and power but honestly i dont even see myself talking about it today and Pontiac has been gone for a few years. i think people will look back on the dart and say wow that was a good car. thats my opinion.

Sorry, we can't help beating a dead horse.

Because it's funny.

And 'new car fanboys!?' That's funny! We're not 'new car fanboys.' We're 'good car fanboys!'

as far as the solstice comparing to the dart i think thats the closest Pontiac will get but its still not close enough for me. it does not have the history behind it. sure its got looks and power but honestly i dont even see myself talking about it today and Pontiac has been gone for a few years. i think people will look back on the dart and say wow that was a good car. thats my opinion.

Are you kidding? If Pontiac never comes back, even as good as the G8 was, THAT CAR will be seen as it's last great hurrah.

Mark my words, that will be an iconic classic.

as far as the solstice comparing to the dart i think thats the closest Pontiac will get but its still not close enough for me. it does not have the history behind it.

I'm going to put the brakes on right here because this statement makes about as much sense as me trying to milk my own nipples.

Let me start off by saying that I'm a Mopar guy these days and you shouldn't doubt my support for the Dart. However, I won't hesitate to admit that I'm trouble finding the historic foundations of the new Dart that you've somehow discovered. Is it simply because it wears the name of a completely unrelated vehicle that was mothballed in the late '70s? You know, considering the general public of the United States probably doesn't even remember what it had for breakfast yesterday morning, I doubt they're going to associate the new car with the old one. (That's not a bad thing, mind you. Those last few years for the original Dart weren't exactly anything I'd shout from a mountaintop about.)

There's about as much history behind the Dart as there is the Solstice.

And in what way is the Solstice like the Dart in the first place? Yeah, that's what I thought. Just can it already. All of you. How in the hell did we get to the low point where we're comparing the Dart to the Solstice, anyway? This is all a total mindf@#k for me.

And let the record show that I really hate that I've further indulged the generally mindless Arrowhead-induced bickering around here, but I can only stand so much of the trolling and the associated feeding going along with it. Seriously. Stop killing and polluting the site with this crap. I've had enough of it. Let's move on already. Too much effort is being put into seriously turning this place around only to have it be for naught.

tldr; I'll just repost something that I removed earlier because I mistakenly thought it was too harsh.

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Enjoy your tough love.

I'd have to disagree. we knew the Caliber was crap when it came out because it was a (bad) attempt at making a mini Magnum. We knew it was ugly. That's why it didn't sell.

And party line around here is that the Neon was crap. And the Avenger... and the Sebring... and everything Pontiac ever made... and everything that don't have SatNav...

We knew the Sunfire and Grand Am weren't going to sell.

Oh really? Did you post that in 1994 or in 1984? I don't have the production numbers here... but the Sunfire habitually sold more than 100K until the very end. The Grand Am sold between 150K and 250K per year for 20 years. That gives us at least 1 million Sunfires and 4 million Grand Ams. I would guessimate its closer to 1.5 and 5 mill, though.

How many cars did Pontiac have to sell to be 'good enough' for 1995?

Is the Sunfire the greatest car made?... Hell no. Its noisy, flimsy, made with meh parts and a crash test disaster. Oh, God, it don't have Nav, either. But it was made in coupe and convertible... and the basic shape is MUCH better looking to me that nearly every small car made since. Hell, there is still an aftermarket for it, 7 years after it ended.

We do however know what the Giulietta is like it's been tested by several media outlets; it's gotten favorable reviews.

Again, I'm not specifically attacking the Dart. Its very nice looking for a modern economy car. But let me ask... has ANYONE here driven one? Driven a Giulietta? Driven a Giulietta built by unhappy, union-backed employees in North America somewhere? And what about people who learn its designed by FIAT... a company not exactly synonymous with quality automobiles. In the end, its the entry level Dodge... and in time it will be judged that way even if it gets 200 mpg, goes 300 mph, only emits chocolate ice cream and has seats that feel like sex.

Producing ONLY Firebird/G8/Solstice/GTO would not have been a viable alternative for Pontiac. That would have made it too niche, and would have seriously hurt its sales chances, especially if it's limited to sports cars like this (which, don't forget, tend to be rather expensive).

So its better to make nothing... or badge then as even cheaper Chevys? There already was a distribution channel for Pontiac... and I'm sure the G8 alone, given a fighting chance, would have added more sales to GM's numbers than Lincoln provides to Ford.

WOW, Te Love it or Hate it Crowd sure has their Panties in a Twist!

so let me clarify for those who have lashed out at my comment. the "history" i refer to has nothing to due with the name. they could have called it the wasp, the venom, the what ever and i still would have said this. the "history" i am talking about is the bonding of 2 MAJOR car companies. and their first love child together (THE DART) is a history making car. the solstice (which i agree is not the right car to compare to the dart) does not have that history. i will say the same thing about the viper when it comes out. it will be the best of dodge and the best of Fiat (Ferrari) in one orgasmic car. i am not angry i am not upset my panties are not twisted. i am stating OPINION. it is obvious i have ruffled the feathers of you Pontiac lovers. i am a Mopar guy to the core and i could care less. just thought you should know

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the "history" i am talking about is the bonding of 2 MAJOR car companies.

This has happened twice in Chrysler's past before Fiat stepped in back in 2009 (first with AMC in 1987, second with Daimler in 1998). Chrysler being bonded with another major automaker is hardly historic, honestly. A historic event is a once in a lifetime thing. Chrysler has merged with another automaker once every decade for the last three decades.

you are quite rude. it has happened before yes. but with fiat its different. fiat is a sports car company. and very successful at it. dodge is a successful car maker as well. the mixing of these two is historic. it is also historic because of the state Chrysler was in a couple years ago making 2nd rate cars. this car is historic because of the new beginning, and the 180 degree turnaround. whether you wanna face it or not this partnership is historic.

WOW, Te Love it or Hate it Crowd sure has their Panties in a Twist!

To eveyone who took offense of my love it or hate it comment, I am sorry it offended you. I do see the history that is going on in the auto industry, just some of us or specifically myself do not see this as anything other than another great car being built for the dodge label. I hope it gets AWD for the SRT4.

It is amussing to see how emotional all can get over an auto, and they say Americans have no passion left anymore.

you are quite rude.

It isn't my intention to be rude, although I am clearly very annoyed that this thread has somehow turned into another big, undeserved Pontiac bitchfest.

I will add that I don't see how my last post was in anyway rude to you, however. I was stating simple a few simple facts and my summary of those facts. As for my previous post before my last one, only the first three statements were directed at you and the first one wasn't intended to be taken completely serious.

it has happened before yes. but with fiat its different. fiat is a sports car company. and very successful at it. dodge is a successful car maker as well. the mixing of these two is historic. it is also historic because of the state Chrysler was in a couple years ago making 2nd rate cars. this car is historic because of the new beginning, and the 180 degree turnaround. whether you wanna face it or not this partnership is historic.

Let's face facts for a moment.

When Chrysler merged with AMC in 1987, they had a product portfolio that was mostly unchanged and quickly growing stale. Sure, the K-Car (as modest and largely mediocre as it was) may have been right for Chrysler in the 1980s, but there is absolutely no way it could've carried Chrysler completely through the 1990s.

If it wasn't for AMC's engineering brilliance, preserverance, and resourcefulness -- something that Chrysler unexpectedly picked up in the '87 buyout -- Chrysler as we knew it during the 1990s certainly would not have exsisted. The list of ex-AMC employess that began to comprise Chrysler's engineering team in the months and years after the buyout and throughout the '90s was almost endless. In fact, your car owes its very exsistance to AMC.

You can't forget it was also the AMC buyout that gave Chrysler the Jeep division. I shouldn't have to discuss the benefits of that.

The Diamler merger/buyout was one of questionable circumstance. Many say it happened because Bob Eaton curiously wasn't confident enough in Chrysler's ability to compete on its own. In any case, it was one that had no benefit to Chrysler whatsoever and what led the company down the road to ruin. If it wasn't for Diamler greedily and desperately wanting to know more about how the economies of scale worked in automotive engineering and production, that failed merger probably wouldn't have happened to begin with.

I'll also make a note here that my Challenger is largely from that era and is anything but second rate. That isn't any thanks to Daimler though, but even still. Sure, I know it isn't the fastest V6 coupe money can buy and that it's heavy and a little too big. But it's definitely one of the better looking coupes that can get your hard-earned, it handles good, it has good-enough performance, it's been good on gas for a car of its size, and it's been dead reliable.

While the alignment with Fiat has helped to turn Chrysler around once again, I wouldn't necessarily say the turn around is because of Fiat and Fiat alone. The Grand Cherokee, the Durango, the 200, the Avenger refresh, the Charger, 300C ... those are all cars that were in various stages of development before Fiat came on board. When Fiat came into the picture, they halted any further production, reviewed and changed whatever details they thought needed to be changed, and enabled their introductions to be sped up if needed. Some cars were so close to being finished, such as the LX cars, they could only change small details.

The turnaround was already trying to get off the ground before Fiat showed up. Fiat really just enabled it to happen much faster and much smoother. That's no small feat I know, but even still. It's hardly historic. If any of Chrysler's three mergers/buyouts/whatever were remotely historic it certainly happened the first time in 1987 and never since.

oh gosh ive gotten so far away from my original point AND the point of this thread.when i say second rate i mean things like the cailber, the neon, the sebring. things that may have sold but were flops in the way of respectability that Chrysler insisted on making. here is the reason i think this car will stand out the history wasn't even a big deal to me im just saying its there and a company like Pontiac doesn't have that. not a big statement in my opinion. it is a respectable car that everyone from teenagers to 80 year olds, mechanically inclined and not so much will want to drive. this car has gotten alot of attention there is no denying that. this car is a big deal. i believe all of the attention, the history, the looks, the power, the possible addition of the SRT name. all of that will make this car memorable. that was my point. and i did not intend to go this far because i didnt think my statement was that big of a deal. now as far is me saying you are rude i was referring to your video clips. do not get me wrong with anything i say in here. i like some Pontiacs. i agree that cars such as the G8 will be remembered as well as the solstice. but dont make the mistake of thinking the dart will be forgotten in a few years.

when i say second rate i mean things like the cailber, the neon, the sebring. things that may have sold but were flops in the way of respectability that Chrysler insisted on making.

Indeed the Caliber and third-gen Sebring were rubbish, but the Neon? I don't know if I'd be inclined to say it was a flop.

The first-generation Neon was the sole American compact car the press really loved in the '90s until the first-generation Ford Focus came along. While the second-gen Neon lost the coupe bodystyle, it fixed most if not all of the first-gen car's major faults and provided the basis for the first SRT-4. The SRT-4 was anything but a failure.

The Neon wasn't in anyway Diamler-influenced, either.

here is the reason i think this car will stand out the history wasn't even a big deal to me im just saying its there and a company like Pontiac doesn't have that.

Okay ... I don't want to go any further with the Pontiac stuff, but I have to know in what way do you think Pontiac isn't historic?

but dont make the mistake of thinking the dart will be forgotten in a few years.

Trust me, I don't think that. Like I said on the previous page:

The Dart is a great car so far and probably one of the best American compact cars ever built ...

What else needs to be said?

Well, unless I'm mainly responding to a post about the Dart or Dart SRT-4, I'm bowing out of this thread for a bit.

I think we should hold off on the "best American compacts ever built" title for the Dart until it is.. you know... built.

It looks great on paper and in pre-production form, but it isn't rolling down the production line yet.

I'd have to disagree. we knew the Caliber was crap when it came out because it was a (bad) attempt at making a mini Magnum. We knew it was ugly. That's why it didn't sell.

And party line around here is that the Neon was crap. And the Avenger... and the Sebring... and everything Pontiac ever made... and everything that don't have SatNav...

We knew the Sunfire and Grand Am weren't going to sell.

Oh really? Did you post that in 1994 or in 1984? I don't have the production numbers here... but the Sunfire habitually sold more than 100K until the very end. The Grand Am sold between 150K and 250K per year for 20 years. That gives us at least 1 million Sunfires and 4 million Grand Ams. I would guessimate its closer to 1.5 and 5 mill, though.

How many cars did Pontiac have to sell to be 'good enough' for 1995?

Is the Sunfire the greatest car made?... Hell no. Its noisy, flimsy, made with meh parts and a crash test disaster. Oh, God, it don't have Nav, either. But it was made in coupe and convertible... and the basic shape is MUCH better looking to me that nearly every small car made since. Hell, there is still an aftermarket for it, 7 years after it ended.

We do however know what the Giulietta is like it's been tested by several media outlets; it's gotten favorable reviews.

Again, I'm not specifically attacking the Dart. Its very nice looking for a modern economy car. But let me ask... has ANYONE here driven one? Driven a Giulietta? Driven a Giulietta built by unhappy, union-backed employees in North America somewhere? And what about people who learn its designed by FIAT... a company not exactly synonymous with quality automobiles. In the end, its the entry level Dodge... and in time it will be judged that way even if it gets 200 mpg, goes 300 mph, only emits chocolate ice cream and has seats that feel like sex.

Producing ONLY Firebird/G8/Solstice/GTO would not have been a viable alternative for Pontiac. That would have made it too niche, and would have seriously hurt its sales chances, especially if it's limited to sports cars like this (which, don't forget, tend to be rather expensive).

So its better to make nothing... or badge then as even cheaper Chevys? There already was a distribution channel for Pontiac... and I'm sure the G8 alone, given a fighting chance, would have added more sales to GM's numbers than Lincoln provides to Ford.

First of all, where the blinking hell did you get NAV from, and why did you decide to shove that in my face? I'm not only a strong proponent of finding directions to a certain destination beforehand, but also of keeping my eyes and mind on the road. I don't need nav. I don't like nav. I'm not like some people who need to use it to find his way home from the office, even though they'd been doing so ten years beforehand. This shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

granted, those numbers put up by the grand Am and the Sunfire are all well and good, but unless you're comparing them to the competition, it's rather misleading. I want to see how they fared against their competition, only that can tell me whether it's "good enough".

and if you still find the Sunfire attractive, that's your thing, i won't tell you you're wrong, just simply that i disagree. I find each iteration rather tacky looking.

While nobody here's driven the Giulietta (seing as it's not sold here), what i was specifically referencing were the reviews you can read anywhere on the internet. Sure, italian cars weren't always synonymous with quality, but they, much like the domestic companies, were taken to quality school by asian imports. for instance it's been said that the NSX forced Ferrari to build cars with parts that don't fall off while you're driving.

they just learned their lesson sooner than we did, because complacency.

Have you driven a Dart? of course not. we can pontificate and speculate all we want, but untill someone gets behind the wheel, all we have to go on are reviews. that is, when it comes down to it, what gets people interested enough to test drive them. Reviews of the Giulietta were good. this shows promise for the Dodge that is based on it. This is why people are excited about the Dart, point blank. Perhaps it will be crap, perhaps it'll be great. We don't know that any more than we know if invisible octopi live on Neptune. But we can't just assume anything based on "it's the entry level Dodge."

Finally, you're making it sound as though I'm a proponent of shutting down Pontiac. NEVER.

I never said that they might as well quit, or rebadge Chevy's (isn't that what got them into trouble in the first place?). I will forever be mad at both General Motors and the Fed for killing my second-favorite car brand, and the third-best selling GM division. All the while spewing the politically-induced literal vomit that "there was no business case to make Pontiac viable."

Ridiculous.

Basics, and I'll make them to the point.

Cutting costs and badge engineering is less effective than simply building quality product in the first place.

GM was complacent and thought they could still stay on top of the market. They didn't. Pontiac suffered for it.

The frustrating part is that GM, the largest automaker in all the world, could have done better, and should have done better; I found myself thinking this far before 2009.

They could have made better, more distinct product for each individual generation. they could have made things that challenged their class to dominance. They could have done this ten, even twenty years ago what they find themselves forced to do now.

Smaller companies with less liquid assets were able to make better quality product. They gained market share on GM.

Basically, since GM is able to do it now, why the hell didn't they do it before?

Disgruntled union workers are no excuse for inferior product. This is what quality control is for.

Chrysler is making desirable, quality product now. They are making cars with attitude and panache, and they're backing it up with good quality and better driving dynamics.

All I was saying is that Pontiac should have been doing THAT, instead of building cars with gaudy plastic cladding and sporty looking bits that made most of the cars all sizzle and no steak. They certainly didn't do Pontiac's image any favors. sure, there are notable exceptions; Firebird, GTO, G8, Solstice, maaaaybe the GP GXP to a lesser degree. But other than that, can you really say that any other Pontiac lived up to that hype or promise of sportiness? Were they as comparitively good as a Charger is now? Would you rather a Sunfire over a Dart?

You can read into that what you want. but think about it first. consider everything i say, and let it digest. You can't be faulted for taking time to put together a valid counterpoint, rather than a rushed argument for the sake of replying quickly.

I think we should hold off on the "best American compacts ever built" title for the Dart until it is.. you know... built.

It looks great on paper and in pre-production form, but it isn't rolling down the production line yet.

I agree with that. Promising and amazing are two different things.

I think we're done here.