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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Rumorpile: New Dodge Challenger and Charger Not Due Till 2021, 300 Bumped Off

      FCA pushes back the redesign of Challenger and Charger

    Fiat Chrysler Automobiles is going to be milking the LX platform for all its worth till at least 2020. Automotive News has learned from two sources that FCA won't redesign the Chrysler 300, Dodge Challenger, and Charger until 2021 when they will transition onto the Giorgio RWD platform. This information confirms hazy details mentioned in a contract highlighter for Unifor members in Canada. The highlighter mentions a $242 million investment into the plant at Brampton, Ontario - home of LX production - to rebuild its paint shop.

    Originally, the plan was to have the next-generation 300, Challenger, Charger out by 2019. Now with plans moved to 2021, FCA will be doing another refresh in 2018.

    The sources also mention that one of three vehicles will be discontinued in 2021, most likely the 300. 

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)
    Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears

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    LOL I don't even know what to think or say anymore about this. It's been around since 2005 and it already a dated platform.. The Avenger and Caliber are newer than this. Their Pacifica/Grand Caravan is on its second platform in this time.

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    Really not anything new here.  As long as they keep making money, why not?  The patform the Explorer, Taurus, and Flex rides on dates back to the late 90s.  As far as I know Chevy still builds the Impala Limited on the W body platform that dates back to the late 80s.  Toyota Corolla?  What, 2003?   If i am not mistaken the Camry is still riding on the platform that came out in 2007.  The key is to keep it as fresh as possible. 

    in any case we better be getting some fantastic replacements for having to wait this long!

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    5 minutes ago, cp-the-nerd said:

    I'm waiting for an announcement that reveals the true financial state of FCA is much closer to the brink than the brave face they're putting on.

    The unwillingness to face market reality and invest in new product for the domestic US auto market will get them there if they are not there now.

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    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

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    14 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

     

    Could not agree more....product and profit both!

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    The D4 platform the Flex rides on is from 2005 and it's on its way out..because nobody buys Flexes.. Taurus is on the D3 according to Wiki..

    The "New MC" platform the Corolla rides on came out in like '05 but the Corolla adapted it in 2014..If I read it correctly.

    I guess it just seems ancient because where the Mustang and Camaro have come from since then. As for a sedan for the Charger/300 it doesn't seem as large of a deal because tuning for lap times and performance just isn't what they're striving for. But looking at the past platforms and how many years they've been around this is definitely going to be the longest. Platforms in general hang around longer than I thought. Good information to know.

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    45 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    It’s not just these vehicles, but also truck and Jeep.  Is it a capital issue?  What gives?  I want to see them prosper with healthy product and profit.  Not just profit.

     

    I don't get how you can say that about jeep and Ram?  There is a new ram coming and the current one is selling great.  We get at least 1 new jeep every year and we are are getting at least 2 next year with the Wrangler and Compass. 

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    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Stew said:

    I don't get how you can say that about jeep and Ram?  There is a new ram coming and the current one is selling great.  We get at least 1 new jeep every year and we are are getting at least 2 next year with the Wrangler and Compass. 

    I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

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    18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    The D4 platform the Flex rides on is from 2005 and it's on its way out..because nobody buys Flexes.. Taurus is on the D3 according to Wiki..

    The "New MC" platform the Corolla rides on came out in like '05 but the Corolla adapted it in 2014..If I read it correctly.

    I guess it just seems ancient because where the Mustang and Camaro have come from since then. As for a sedan for the Charger/300 it doesn't seem as large of a deal because tuning for lap times and performance just isn't what they're striving for. But looking at the past platforms and how many years they've been around this is definitely going to be the longest. Platforms in general hang around longer than I thought. Good information to know.

    Interesting note, the Flex's last year is 2020, which should also be the last for the LX cars.  The challenger was never about chasing lap times.  It is a VERY different car from the Mustang and Camaro.  Larger, with a real trunk and true 5 passenger capacity, the Mustang and Camaro are only setup as 4 seaters and the back seat pass3engers are pretty well tortured,.  my bug has more backseat space lol. 

    1 minute ago, Wings4Life said:

    I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

    2018 or 2019 will bring a brand new one.  the last major refresh was in 14 which including modifications to the frame, engines, adaptation of the 8 speed, intro of the ecodiesel, and a very much improved interior, so it really hasn't been that long, especially for a truck. 

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    12 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    I might be off base on Jeep, but on truck, they are behind GM and Ford in freshenings.

    The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

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    1 minute ago, FordCosworth said:

    The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

    At worst it is going to be heavily revised, but at least mostly new.  Some spyshots are even showing them with a wider track.  Lighter weight materials will certainly be used. 

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    remember too, the last gen F-150 was actually all new in 04, 08 was a heavy update so you are looking at 04-14 on the same platform.  the ram was all new in 09 so 09-19 is the same as the F-150. 

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    Yeah a ten year span seems acceptable and companies need to start stretching them out to amortize costs better. The LX will be 16 years old for its last year of production 2005-2021. That's the one in question, the LX not the Ram. I'd also think trucks could last longer on an existing platform just because their intended use is a little more direct whereas cars they are using them for multiple names and variants.

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    10 years is not unheard of at all for cars.  Usually 2 successive generations will be based on the same platform, just highly modified for each one as happened with the LX cars in 11 and again in 15.  It seems like fullsize cars tend to hang around on their platforms longer than their midsize counterparts. 

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    Depends on the vehicle.  Remember before the new 2014 Impala came out, the last model (still sold as the limited) was/is based on the W body platform form, i believe, 1988 which puts it at roughly 30 years old.  The taurus is based on a platform dating to the late 90s, Pat\nther went on for over 30s with it's last total interior design happening in 95 and the last full exterior redesign in 1998.  In any case, 15 or 16 is a lot better than 30+ :)

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    Think of this, the Buick Lesabre was on sale when the first LX Dodge Magnum went on sale, and I think 2005 was the first year of the W-body Lacrosse and the Lucerne came in 2006.  Buick has replaced the Lacrosse 2 more times since then and Chrysler/Dodge still have the same basic car.

    The LX was based on a Mercedes chassis (w210 I think) they have done 3 new chassis since then.  Chrysler is so hopeless, you can't compete with 20 year old stuff, they'll be selling Chargers for $19,999 in another year or two.

    This is also Sergio hoping some white knight will ride in and save him with a merger and a line of established good cars that's he can rebadge.  But Honda or Hyundai aren't walking through the door with a line of fresh sedans and crossovers for them to add some chrome and leather and sell as Chrylsers.

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    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Think of this, the Buick Lesabre was on sale when the first LX Dodge Magnum went on sale, and I think 2005 was the first year of the W-body Lacrosse and the Lucerne came in 2006.  Buick has replaced the Lacrosse 2 more times since then and Chrysler/Dodge still have the same basic car.

    The LX was based on a Mercedes chassis (w210 I think) they have done 3 new chassis since then.  Chrysler is so hopeless, you can't compete with 20 year old stuff, they'll be selling Chargers for $19,999 in another year or two.

    This is also Sergio hoping some white knight will ride in and save him with a merger and a line of established good cars that's he can rebadge.  But Honda or Hyundai aren't walking through the door with a line of fresh sedans and crossovers for them to add some chrome and leather and sell as Chrylsers.

    Worst and most uninformed comment yet. 

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    2 hours ago, FordCosworth said:

    The " new " Ram coming is a heavily update of the current truck. It's not " all new " like it's GM and Ford counterparts recent offerings 

    ...and both the Ford and GM products are very well done with excellent reviews. Not sure why it won't let me reply without putting a line through the text.

    Edited by A Horse With No Name
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    1 hour ago, Stew said:

    Depends on the vehicle.  Remember before the new 2014 Impala came out, the last model (still sold as the limited) was/is based on the W body platform form, i believe, 1988 which puts it at roughly 30 years old.  The taurus is based on a platform dating to the late 90s, Pat\nther went on for over 30s with it's last total interior design happening in 95 and the last full exterior redesign in 1998.  In any case, 15 or 16 is a lot better than 30+ :)

    As far as the Panthers go, I still want a Mercury Marauder like I want Oxygen and access to the fair sex.  Kind of hard to argue against all of the unloved miles these did as Police cars and Taxi cars also.

    Call me stupid but I have a soft spot in my heart for these.  I still cringe a bit inside whenever they inevitably get blown up in movies and TV shows also. Was not always the case, but as I get older and I look back...Ford did one heck of a job with these.

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    This just confirms the waste of Billions on bringing back the stupid Italian brands that were already dead rather than investing in the proper labels in the US. 

    No one can prove that the billions wasted on Alfa was worth steeling all the profits from the US labels.

    This also makes me even more solid about the Killing Chrysler label. Dodge will continue on, kill off the 200, 300 and move the Pacifica to Dodge and Chrysler is dead.

    I bet FCA in 2020 will announce the death of the 300, the movement of the Pacifica to Dodge and the delay to milk out everything under Jeep and Ram so they can continue to rap the profits to sink into the death traps from Fiat and Alfa. Garbage auto's with checkered history. Should have left them in the history books.

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    This is old news because the website allpar has been reporting for months that the LX will last until the 2021 model year. Also, LX has a few parts from the Mercedes E class, but I have read that it has more parts from the LH platform. 

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    Kinda old news, but I also assumes some of the rumors I've been hearing-they are not going to do much more (FCA) to most of their  products until a buyer/partner is found. Most of the money was going to their one major moneymaker, Jeep.

    Things at FCA are going to change soon....

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    7 hours ago, daves87rs said:

    Kinda old news, but I also assumes some of the rumors I've been hearing-they are not going to do much more (FCA) to most of their  products until a buyer/partner is found. Most of the money was going to their one major moneymaker, Jeep.

    Things at FCA are going to change soon....

    The problem is that we have had twenty years of change and most of it not good.  The last in house (without a partner) cars of Merit were the first gen neon, Intrepid/Concorde/ et al.

    My middle daughter was in diapers when those cars were new...now she is a senior in College. Chryco has effectively been starved for mainstream competitive product for a generation.

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    The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

    The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

    The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

    As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

    Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

    I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

    I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

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    22 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

    The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

    The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

    The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

    As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

    Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

    I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

    I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

    Quoted for truth!

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    15 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    As far as the Panthers go, I still want a Mercury Marauder like I want Oxygen and access to the fair sex.  Kind of hard to argue against all of the unloved miles these did as Police cars and Taxi cars also.

    Call me stupid but I have a soft spot in my heart for these.  I still cringe a bit inside whenever they inevitably get blown up in movies and TV shows also. Was not always the case, but as I get older and I look back...Ford did one heck of a job with these.

    Oh me too!  If it wasn't for them not meeting the latest safety standards they would probably still be around.  They were simply a cash cow for Ford. 

     

    In my favorite Marauder color

    p1060025.jpg

    Edited by Stew
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    2 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Oh me too!  If it wasn't for them not meeting the latest safety standards they would probably still be around.  They were simply a cash cow for Ford. 

     

    In my favorite Marauder color

    p1060025.jpg

    That is just gorgeous!

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    3 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Can you imagine if they had stuffed the Cobra R 5.4 or the Terminator's supercharged 4.6 in these?

     

     

    mercury-marauder-9.jpg

    Ohhh hell yes!  I love the 90's Impala SS but this thing Trumps that to no end...!

    It is just kind of a shame that values/prices have gone up to the point they have, they are not a common car and are getting a bit pricey in the collector market.  Still, higher transaction prices would mean more of the cars end up in the hands of responsible owners, which I am all for.

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    1 minute ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Ohhh hell yes!  I love the 90's Impala SS but this thing Trumps that to no end...!

    I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

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    6 minutes ago, Stew said:

    I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

    I could live with that.  Would add a big full size Chrysler product from the very early 1970's or 1960's for a tri-fecta of sorts.

     

     

    cars-chrysler-300l-classic-cars

    http://hooniverse.com/2013/09/13/hooniverse-obscure-muscle-car-garage-the-1965-chrysler-300-l/

    Something a little bit obscure to really set all three off....

    I have had a couple of chances to buy a 65 300L, sorry I passed on them.

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    1 hour ago, hyperv6 said:

    The truth is by 2021 there may not be a Chrysler or Dodge.

    The fact is they are being starved for funds that could save FCA and at the rate it is going all will remain will be the Jeeps and Ram.

    The real question will be who will be the FCA partner or owner and will they at this point invest in the line.

    As it is now these cars are stale now and only to the dedicated hard work of Chrysler engineers have they been able to keep these cars on the radar with some special models and features. Even then it is still not enough.

    Sergio feels he will save FCA with the Italian models being rebuilt in the Jeep money. This is the wrong path as Chrysler taking the lead would have saved them.

    I only see Jeep and Ram being of any interest to any outsider MFG.

    I saw this coming when they were bought by Fiat as Fiat was a Titanic of their own making and I could not see them being any benefit to Chrysler. In fact it has been much worse they have turned into a parasite sucking the life saving blood money from them.

     

    Pretty much the truth my friend!

     

    Bought to pick apart and use, then dump for money.

     

    You know things are heading south when most of your workforce in MI is temp to hire....

    59 minutes ago, Stew said:

    I want both.  An 04 Marauder in Silver and the Impala in DGGM and a 96 model please

    Yep! Now that is a fleet!

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    5 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    For me, I have always loved the Monte Carlo SS Area.

    MonteCarloAreo1987-2.jpg

    MonteCarloAreo1987.jpg

    Other than being underpowered, the design and color is just awesome. :metal: 

    Love the even Rares Pontiac aero cars also.

    Sadly, living in Ohio, there were no end to the SS Monte Carlo's I watched die a slow painful death here in the rust belt.....ughhh...

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    I have been reading a book about the automakers back in the 80's-90's> They told about how the Panther was really an accident. They had intended to kill the car off but ended up keeping it as they poured their money into the Taurus program. 

    GM killed off all their large cars and most of their FWD cars thinking gas would get more expensive and it dropped. Ford left with the old paid for Panthers just made a lot of money with the sedans. They did have an issue with the Cougar and T Bird as they were over weight and no where as profitable. 

    The same is happening today with the large SUV models as GM owns the segment with about 50% of the market and Ford owns very little of it with their old models. Here again Gas dropped and left Ford with little like GM was in with their cars in the 80's. 

    The best laid plans are often thwarted by things beyond the automakers control. 

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    13 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

    I have been reading a book about the automakers back in the 80's-90's> They told about how the Panther was really an accident. They had intended to kill the car off but ended up keeping it as they poured their money into the Taurus program. 

    GM killed off all their large cars and most of their FWD cars thinking gas would get more expensive and it dropped. Ford left with the old paid for Panthers just made a lot of money with the sedans. They did have an issue with the Cougar and T Bird as they were over weight and no where as profitable. 

    The same is happening today with the large SUV models as GM owns the segment with about 50% of the market and Ford owns very little of it with their old models. Here again Gas dropped and left Ford with little like GM was in with their cars in the 80's. 

    The best laid plans are often thwarted by things beyond the automakers control. 

    And when our leaders in their infinite wisdom plunge the world into another recession and gas goes way back up, both GM and Ford may be in a bit of trouble.  But not as much trouble as FCA.

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    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted

    Ford currently offers a lot of fuel efficient vehicles, PHEV's, HEV's and EV.  Soon they will double their electrification offerings.

     

    I hardly think Ford will be in trouble.

     

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    38 minutes ago, Wings4Life said:

    Ford currently offers a lot of fuel efficient vehicles, PHEV's, HEV's and EV.  Soon they will double their electrification offerings.

     

    I hardly think Ford will be in trouble.

     

    They will be in trouble, but not the way you are taking my post.  yes, they have fuel efficient vehicles, but the economy is already weak and will tank.  Everything from agriculture to aviation runs on petroleum and you will need buyers for your vehicles, regardless of how fuel efficient they are.

    Ford and GM are also highly dependent on Trucks and SUV's for their profit margins, that market will also decline if there is a big jump in fuel prices.

    Chrysler is more dependent on these vehicles and does not have the hybrid offerings, thus my comment.

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    1 hour ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    And when our leaders in their infinite wisdom plunge the world into another recession and gas goes way back up, both GM and Ford may be in a bit of trouble.  But not as much trouble as FCA.

    GM and Ford Will both be ok. 

    FCA, right now buys Carbon Credits to offset their bottom of the barrel CAFE rating. That company is running on borrowed time. 

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    6 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    GM and Ford Will both be ok. 

    FCA, right now buys Carbon Credits to offset their bottom of the barrel CAFE rating. That company is running on borrowed time. 

    Which is why I said bit of trouble. Chryco has effectively been dead since the 1990's in terms of product under self rule and self direction.  Would almsot rather see them die a dignified death than a slow painful one, although I wish them no harm.

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    Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)

    Posted (edited)

    Ebbs and Flows.  If the nation suffers, everyone suffers.  But the nation needs trucks and vans, just as they need smaller vehicles.

    Offering more fuel efficient trucks and small vans, will give Ford a huge advantage.  

    I hear they are targeting impressive amounts of FE with next gen trucks, Transit vans, including ranger and HEV.

    If anything, Ford could even prosper.

    Edited by Wings4Life
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Let's start off by making one thing clear, every state has their own regulations in regard to electrical. While the USA follows the national electrical code as a starting point, each state, county and city then adds their own additions or subtractions to the code. Always make sure to follow your local code no matter if you hire a company, independent contractor or are a DIY (Do it Yourself) type of person. Full information on the national electrical code can be found here:  The National Electrical Code (NEC) - Electrical Safety Foundation (esfi.org) Another thing to point out is every state has their own way of dealing with electrical supply and competition. As such, some states allow their end users to pick among competitive electrical suppliers even to the point of choosing to use Green Energy (Solar, Wind, and or Hydro) or not (Coal, Natural Gas, Nuclear). Other states tend to regulate this down to the city and or county within a state. Washington state is a regulated power supply state so that depending on the county you live in; you deal with your county or the state power supplier. Washington state has one of the greenest electrical grides in the country. It produces 7,816 MWh of electricity and it breaks down as follows: Figures as of May 16th, 2024 Petroleum-Fired - 0% Natural Gas - 21.3% Coal-Fired - 3.9% Nuclear 10.3% Renewables - 64.1% (Hydro, Wind, Solar & Ocean) Fueling Stations in Washington State: Motor Gasoline - 1,846 Stations Propane - 64 Stations EV Charging - 2,153 stations E85 - 5 stations Biodiesel, CNG, & Other Alternatives - 8 stations If you wish to check out your own state information you can do so here by clicking on your state:  U.S. Energy Information Administration - EIA - Independent Statistics and Analysis Starting off on my project I had decided to go ahead with a ChargePoint+ Home Flex Hardwired solution. Yes, there are a wide variety of good home chargers that run from $250 to $2000 dollars such as the Porsche home charger. Home Flex Hardwired Level 2 EV Charger (chargepoint.com) The choice of this charger was based on the following: Some of the best reviews out there by thousands of people Hardwired allowed me the best power supply available to the EV building in future protection as newer EV tech comes online. ChargePoint sells both CCS and NACS supply cords, making upgrades from my current EV with CCS to a future EV with NACS easy as a self-Upgrade to the charger. ChargePoint app allows for use both at their fast-charging network and to track my own use and cost. You can find a large diverse choice of L1 and L2 chargers on Amazon or from other sources. Many utilities will have rebates if you purchase through your local utility or in the case of my own system, I had to file a rebate form as my charger was on the approved list, but not available from my utility. ChargePoint+ also points out that till 2032 you might be able to qualify for a $1,000 rebate from the federal government. Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Incentives | ChargePoint Now that I have covered some of the basics about electrical and power source, lets dive into my journey for a Level 2 Home Charger. Karl at the Snohomish PUD sent me a form that I had to fill out, this was a "New Service Residential Request" form. Here I had to fill out the normal details such as my house address, current status of the electrical to the home, type of new service being requested, pictures of where the service would need to be connected to the house and where I wanted the service panel to be, etc. This form had an area for requested measurements from the house to the utility pole, gross measurements of where the wiring would need to go so that the service could be sized up accordingly. The last part was the direction from my PUD on checking with the city for any additional requirements. For those wanting to see what the new service request form looks like I supply it here: 1097R_NSQres.pdf City requirements were that any electrical changes to the existing structure that comprised more than 10% cost of the home improvement value as assessed by the county required that the electrical lines from the utility pole to the house be installed underground rather than overhead. Luckily for me, my estimated costs would be under this so I was not looking to have to figure this into the cost of adding the service or so I thought. Karl at SNOPUD said he would do the assessment and have out to me the updated info shortly. In the meantime, I reached out to a couple of recommended electrical companies from the SNOPUD website and a few independent electricians to get estimates on the work to be done. Specifically, I wanted two quotes, first is the all-new service added to the house with dedicated panel feeding the garage. Second was updating the existing panel to support a charger in the garage using my existing service. Here I was expecting a $5 to $6 thousand dollar install connection for the first service and based on the auto industry estimate of around $1,500 to $2,000 for the second. Boy was I off by a bunch. All the estimates from both the electrical companies I contacted, and the independent contractors had the new service install between $10 to $12 thousand dollars and the existing services was between $4,700 to $6,200. This also did not include the connection to the PUD. Here I was informed from Karl at SNOPUD that the service could be done but would require a new transformer to our cul-d-sac to support the added amperage pull. As such, this was more than just a wire connection but an outage to the cul-d-sac ending in an almost $15,000 charge. Who knew that adding a service where you pay them for the flow of electricity would have such a huge cost and impact on my project. This put the cost of a new service between $25,000 to $27,000 dollars. So much for the Auto Industry estimates of $1,500 to $2,000 dollars and it also did not include the required $125.00 electrical permit I would have to get from the city and inspection. I did keep in mind that the price of electrical work varies based on the cost of labor where one lives, power of the charger, distance from the charger to the electrical panel along with the job complexity. What about DIY (Do it Yourself), could I do this job myself and what would the cost be? First, I knew from all the quotes that I was greatly under my 200-amp service pull as I have Gas stove, Dryer, Water heater and Furnace. As such, the 240V 30-to-50-amp circuits that are in my panel are not being used at all. One of the independent electricians had stated that the cheapest way would be to pull an existing circuit breaker and run the wire into the panel with the new Circuit breaker, but most electricians did not like leaving existing wires from outlets in the panel even if they were sealed off, they just did not like doing this, so everyone had quoted based on adding a secondary panel. With this information, I researched from the ChargePoint+ website on installing the hardwired charger I had purchased from them. ChargePoint+ has installation videos and covers all the information on installation as well as becoming a certified installation expert. ChargePoint Home Resources | ChargePoint ChargePoint Home Flex (CPH50) Hardwired Installation Video | ChargePoint Become a Certified ChargePoint Installer | ChargePoint From the website above I gathered the following information on the materials that I would need. Conduit large enough to hold the wiring Brackets to attach the conduit and screws 90-degree wire access conduit Associated pipe nipple for connection into the panel Insulated bushing Appropriate washer and locknut for connection to the panel 6 AWG wiring Black, Red and Green wires per code ChargePoint+ clearly states to use 6AWG for their Level 2 Charger installation. 6 AWG wire stripper 70amp circuit breaker Some states require these to be Arc or GFCI for indoor or outdoor, national code for outdoor installation is a GFCI breaker upstream from the outdoor installation. Check local regulations for proper type required. Make sure to get the proper type of circuit breaker for your panel, I had D block circuits. Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters vs. Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters - Bob Vila Torque Screwdriver set Most do not know that depending on the size of the circuit breaker, when you connect the wiring to the breaker, the screws must be torqued to a certain range. The 70amp circuits per the side of the breaker states 45 in. lbs. Paintable caulking to seal both access points into the house for the charger. With having my list of materials, I choose to first compare prices online from Home Depot and Lowe's. What I found was that Home Depot was much higher in the cost of the wiring, but cheaper in conduit, circuit breakers and accessories. Lucky, I have both home improvement stores within a 2-mile radius of my house. What I also noticed was that neither home improvement store had the required tools I would need, so clearly, I would have to stop off at my local Harbor Freight tool store. Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices With the knowledge of what I needed and a shopping list, I headed out and accomplished the following: Electrical Permit from my city.  Wiring from Lowe's - Lowe’s Home Improvement (lowes.com) Conduit, circuit breaker and accessories from Home Depot - The Home Depot Tools from Harbor Freight tools company - Harbor Freight Tools | Quality Tools, Lowest Prices Opening up the electrical panel as you can see here, I have my household 200amp circuit at the top. This will kill power to everything in the house, below this was the kitchen and laundry room 240V circuit and then on down throughout the rest of the house to the garage with various circuits. At this point, I knew that I would be turning off the 200amp circuit to work on this panel and protect the rest of the house. Note to point out is that when you turn off this 200amp circuit, the power is not flowing to the rest of the panel, but you still have the power coming from the street to this panel and so there is live electricity in that 200amp circuit. One must always be cautious when working with electrical. One safety thing to do, remove ALL jewelry, watches, phones, etc. Have nothing on you that is electrical or any kind of metal and that includes a wedding ring. All these are places that can cause an electrical jump / short that can cause you harm. As one that grew up working on auto's and having great respect for the electrical system of auto's, homes, datacenters, etc. there are some things that I do not have a problem doing. In this case I kept the power to the house on while I pulled the panel cover off. A proper panel should have all the wires in 90 degrees to the circuit breakers and to the grounding / neutral bars that are silver in this case. Here I have not had any manipulation of the box done with patchwork electrical hacks. It is always best to learn the details or hire the proper person to do your electrical work. Being that I am comfortable with pulling out the circuit breaker that is turned off, I choose to pull and replace the 240V 30-amp laundry room circuit. Here in this picture, you can see it removed and a better view of the grounding / neutral bar of the electrical panel. At this point, I wanted to pull out the punch of where I was going to run the new electrical lines into the panel. Once I pulled out the punch, I drilled a small starter hole from the inside to the outside so I could line up properly the larger drill bit for the incoming conduit. Upon drilling, I attached the pipe nipple extension to the 90-degree wire access conduit, and I inserted it through the outside wall. Here I put on the washer, lock nut and insulated bushing as you can see here. Now the next step was to install the conduit, some love their hard conduit and gluing it together as it comes in 10ft lengths, and you then have to either use a special heater tool to bend the hard conduit or buy the proper pieces that are curved. I choose to go with liquid proof flexible commercial conduit. The benefit here is that while this is a bit more expensive, the flexibility of the line makes it so much easier to install. One thing no matter what type of conduit you choose to use is that one has to run the electrical lines through the conduit. Hard conduit can be with tight bends very challenging to run the electrical lines unless you have a special tool that allows you to snake through the conduit, attach the electrical lines and then it uses an electrical motor to pull it. I choose to run my flexible conduit out in a straight line, and I had pushed through my three 6awg lines through it so that I had the wire already in the conduit. Now this does make the conduit much heavier to install, but I found it faster and easier to do it this way. You will also notice that I have a Black, White and Green wire rather than the code dictating a Black, Red and Green wire. Both Lowe's and Home Depot were out at the time of purchase the red 6awg wire. So, I did what is allowed and that is on the ends of the wire at both ends, I wrapped them with red electrical tape. I started with connecting the liquid tight end connector to the flexible conduit and attaching it to the 90 degree wire access to the panel. I pushed the wires through to the inside and reattached the liquid tight cover and then started using the brackets to attach the conduit to the house. Two things to consider, one is the over all look of the installation, sometimes the cheapest approach is not the best especially when it comes to ones significant other, wife, partner, etc., not everyone likes to see conduit. I choose to do my best to minimize the visibility of the conduit and once I paint it to match the house it will truly not show up as the wife never noticed it when she came home till after I showed here. Upon installation of the conduit with the 6 AWG wires, it was time to mount the home charger in my designated place. Here you need to make sure it is level, supported by the wall which can sometimes require additional bracing. Here you see my ChargePoint+ unit being installed on the wall. With the charger installed onto the wall, I finished up the connection of the conduit / wires into the unit. Connected the electrical supply side and the charging cable side and reinstalled the cover. With the installation of the charger unit and wiring done, it was time to focus on the circuit breaker installation side. Here I had an LED head light as I finally turned off the 200-amp circuit breaker to the house. I attached the red and black wires to the circuit breaker, installed the ground wire and then installed the circuit breaker into the panel. I also at this time wrapped each wire from the laundry outlet in proper electrical tap and a wire twist to add additional protection and secured them out of the way in the panel corner. I also at this time used my torque screwdriver to ensure proper torque on the wires. With the installation completed at the panel side, I turned back on the 200-amp circuit enabling the house to have power and was time to go enable the charger unit. Here ChargePoint+ has an outstanding cellphone app to enable you to finish up the setup of the charger. I was able to connect to the unit via WiFi and set the unit to 70 amp circuit hardwired. I also then connected it to my house WiFi for internet access. This allowed me to do a update on the unit for software. Here ChargePoint has on the left side of the unit indicators for WiFi connection. Green is good and as you can see in the picture above, I have WiFi connection and the alert is showing green so no issues with the charger. Upon using the regular ChargePoint software app on my smartphone I was able to complete setting up an account and final configuration of my charger as a home charger unit. The unit is green when not in use but ready to be used. During Charging the unit is a pulsing blue. At this point, I had a functional Level 2 240V 50amp hardwired home EV charger with CCS connector. What did this cost me, simple a total of $1,032.23 Level 2 ChargePoint+ Home Flex hardwired charger: $549.99 plus $54.99 sales tax before $200.00 rebate. Total Cost of Materials: $391.77 which was from Home Depot & Lowe's. Tools bought for the job: $110.48 which comprised of a 6 AWG wire striper and a Torque Screwdriver set from Harbor Freight. Electrical Permit: $125 from the city. Best part of this is the cheap charging we get at home at .10 cents per kW. The ChargePoint app allows me to track and monitor in real time our costs and amount used, so it will make it easy to subtract it from the electrical bill to see the house use versus the EV. The app shows that I am constantly at the 11kW controller capabilities of home charging from Kia. This brings me back to why I titled this the Good, Bad and the Ugly. New Service request is the ugly as the costs of the new service from my power supplier has costs that have never been talked about before to me and I still have to pay for the electrical use which makes this the ugly when you are looking at a five figure cost. The bad is clearly adding the new service panel and the associated costs to an electrical company to do the work, pretty much double what the auto industry has stated having a Level 2 home charger installed would actually cost. Good is for those of you who are willing to learn and do the work, a DIY install is in my humble opinion a very cheap way to go even though it did take a chunk of my time, I have no regrets about learning the process to install and dealing with my city on installation. End result is a quality home charger that will serve me well for many years. Please post any questions or comments, happy to respond on this personal journey into home charging of my EV. View full article
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