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  • Drew Dowdell
    Drew Dowdell

    PSA Demanding Roughly 50% Refund From GM for Opel Purchase

      PSA claims GM misrepresented Opel's emissions troubles

    PSA Group is demanding a refund from General Motors of between $711 million and $948 million stemming from the purchase of Opel by PSA.  PSA is claiming that GM misrepresented Opel's emissions reduction strategy during the due diligence negotiations.  

    EU Emissions regulations for 2021 set a target reduction of 130 g/km to 95 g/km.  Regulators can fine manufacturers $113 per vehicle per gram over the limit. Any vehicle at the 130 g/km limit today would see fines of $3,955 per car sold. 

    PSA claims that GM's plan for reaching that target relied on unrealistically high sales of the Opel Ampera-E, the European model of the US built Chevrolet Bolt EV, and extra rosy forecasts of diesel sales.  Opel loses $11,850 per Ampera-E sold. PSA has already cut sales of the Ampera-E in Norway and raised its price at least $6,700 for the rest of Europe.  Adding to the trouble are falling diesel sales in Europe as consumers move to less efficient gasoline engines. 

    Even during the sale negotiations, PSA was was aware that GM was forecasting Opel to miss the 95 g/km target by 3.7 grams.  Take the Ampera-E forecast of 20,000 vehicles out out of the picture and that number jumps to 6 g/km. Adjusting for falling diesel sales and Opel will miss its target by 10 grams. Such a large miss could result in fines approaching the entire purchase price of Opel ($1.54 billion).

    PSA is now speeding into production electric or plug-in hybrid variants of Opel's mainstay cars, with the entire lineup being converted to PSA platform architecture by 2024.

    PSA must now go through GM lawyers and arbitration to determine if they will get any refund from GM.


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    :roflmao: PSA Idiots, this was their poor checking and to cut the Ampera-E so they do not have the loss of cash on an EV and blaming GM. Tough Luck, you guys had your chance, now deal with the fall out of your poor mgmt planning.

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    I don't blame them for being mad after reading the reasons cited.  Currently (get it?) electric cars are a bust and gas cars are the natural fallback with the sad and unnecessary persecution of diesels.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    I don't blame them after reading the reasons cited.  Currently (get it?) electric cars are a bust and gas cars are the natural fallback with the sad and unnecessary persecution of diesels.

    They are not a bust and you know that. Do they make a profit? No, but then neither did Petro in the early years. Everyone knows this is the chicken or egg issue and PSA Idiots are looking to blame someone for their poor review of Opel.

    Business never says or shows anything up front. Everyone tries their best to make money and somethings do not work out. EVs are the future, the changeover will be hard for some that ignor that the climate is changing and the ocnblu (get it?) will flood their home area.

    If everyone took the head in the sand approach, change nothing, create nothing keep status quo, then we would still be living in a very dark era.

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    If GM intentionally misled, I do think they might owe the refund.

    That said, if the stats are true, there is quite possibly the largest reason for GM dumping Opel. They still had to pay the pension costs and such, but these issues would have made Opel intensely unprofitable.

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    4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Dfelt, Mother Earth will take care of herself to our detriment.  We cannot control her.

    Based on your attitude towards EVs, a very Baby Boomer mentality that Women are second class and must obey the men. So in this case, Mother Earth will do as the men say! ;):P 

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    17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    I don't blame them for being mad after reading the reasons cited.  Currently (get it?) electric cars are a bust and gas cars are the natural fallback with the sad and unnecessary persecution of diesels.

    You have never been to Europe, huh?

    Because if you have been to Europe, you would NEVER be saying such nonsense as 

    17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    with the sad and unnecessary persecution of diesels.


    The earliest recollection I have of Athens, Greece....is not of the Parthenon. 

    Nor of the many peripteros that were.

    Image result for periptero

    But the distinct smell of diesels...

    I smelled this in 1977, 1979, 1985, 1987, 2001 and 2003 and I have NEVER forgotten it. In fact, when a diesel truck or bus (on occasion 'cause busses are no longer diesel in Montreal...) passes me by in Montreal and I get a whiff of that smell, I immediately go back to when I was 4,6,12 and 14 years old...

    And Im not the ONLY one to think this way. A quick google search...





    I love the smell of diesel fumes ever since my first trip to Europe in '85. It takes me back instantly. 


    Richard on Aug 23, 99 at 1:24pm

    The stinky smell of car exhaust in Paris


    Vickie on Aug 24, 99 at 9:33am

    Diesel exhaust fumes...London buses!


    There are many smells that remind me of Europe: 
    -the smell of coffee also reminds me of Amsterdam along with the smell of fresh pastries 
    -when I smell bread baking it reminds me of Paris 
    -Chocolate reminds me of Brussels 
    -Diesel fumes remind me of London 
    -Smell of seafood reminds me of Ireland 
    -The odor of scotch, of course, reminds me of Scotland 
    -The smell of sheep reminds me of Wales 


    ditto Diesel fumes - Europe
    Tube roses - bellas artes, Mexico City
    Sweet Olive Trees - New Orleans
    Cedar - Mexico City


    Diesel exhaust reminds me of Rome and the smell of rain in the air brings back memories of Paris.





    This is lovely Athens, Greece and her lovely...smog

    Image result for Athens smog


    Please...when you want to wax poetic about your preferred energy source...do it in a more intelligent manner because the way you currently present it to me...I aint convinced! Because I also have  experiences...my very own experiences that contradict yours!  So...choose another way to teach me, because your current way is a PURE fail! 





    Edited by oldshurst442
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    I haven't been to Greece (been to several other European countries, though), but on her vacation to Greece and Turkey in 2000 my sister said Athens was beautiful but very polluted.. 

    I do recall the diesel trucks, taxis, cars, etc all around me in London, Paris, Milan, Rome, Naples, etc.. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    Yup for any of us that have traveled or do travel as I do for trade shows in Europe. The Diesel smell along with the damage from acid rain especially in Germany where I go allot for work shows how damaging Diesel is.

    I love Diesel and the clean diesel we have here in America is great compared to the unhindered mother earth destroying diesel that has been sold for ever in Europe.

    This is why Europe, China are all pushing so hard on EV is the need to clean up for health and so much more.

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    4 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I haven't been to Greece (been to several other European countries, though), but on her vacation to Greece and Turkey in 2000 my sister said Athens was beautiful but very polluted.. 

    Sadly. The ONLY European country I have visited is Greece. I would LOVE to see ALL of Europe one day. 

    Athens is a mixed bag.

    On one hand, she is BEAUTIFUL and MAGESTIC. That would be her old ancient historic side. 

    Then on her other side, she is very ugly and gray and poor and dirty. That would be her growth from our freedom from the Turks. From the early 1900s to the 1970s. Lots of apartments were built during this time that housed the many Greeks that flocked to her when the Turks finally left Greece for good and the poor people from the other areas of Greece went to Athens to find work again. Many wars in the 70 year span did not do any good for the economics of Athens of this time also.  And just like many European cities during this time, beauty to re-build took a back seat. 

    However, in the 1990s, when Greece was finally on her feet again, Athens rejuvenated herself and she re-built herself with modern ideas that also had aesthetics in mind. This happened in other European cities way before Athens. I think we could safely say this started in the late 1970s and 1980s for the other cities. London and Berlin and Hamburg come to mind.  

    It all came to a peak during the 2004 Olympics. Now, Athens is on another decline. Decay in certain parts of Athens is starting up again. 

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    So our detour into history and pollution does make me wonder when do we leave history in the books and rebuild an area for the betterment of human life compared to trying to preserve all things old?

    With that question in mind, that brings us back to our core conversation of PSA and the refund asked of GM. With this we have two questions that come to my mind off the top of many:

    1. Is it cheaper to litigate this in the courts for ever or just come to some agreement and walk away from the mess that Opel is?
    2. Knowing the history and what the European gov is doing, limiting sales of the Amp-E by Opel at a time that PSA due to their own poor emissions record needs help, Is it really the smart thing to do? Versus move forward with moving all new and future product onto a PSA platform for Hybrid / EV and sell as much as you can get from GM of a rebadge Amp-E.

    One does wonder about the mgmt skill set of PSA.

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    PSA IS NOT THAT SMART.  Blaming others before finding fault within yourself is what failures and cowards do.  PSA needs to replace diesel ASAP and tend to Opel/Vauxhall rather than sue GM for a refund that they clearly do not deserve.  Successful managers find a way to succeed regardless of circumstance rather than refight battles that they already lost.

    OR PSA can simply dissolve all operations and return the net proceeds to shareholders.  Your move, PSA.

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    The only factor here is if intentional deception occurred.

    There is no way GM didn't share forecasted sales of each car. If PSA felt they were too rosey, they should have said something during due diligence.  I don't need to be an expert to know that 20k Ampera-E is a bit optimistic for a car that the new Brand's owner would lose lots of money on per car.

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    Totally agree with Drew, Due Diligence is every person/business responsibility when buying something.

    20K Ampera-E sales is totally doable and based on the huge pre-sales that PSA has since stopped taking since they are so far behind in getting the auto to customers. I would say PSA should be looking at selling more not less since they are complaining about the pollution fine on their existing sales of new diesel / petro. Having a product line that lacks clean efficiency in Europe with all the rapid changes happening for clean air and water and then stopping sales of a very successful EV auto is just stupid.

    PSA Knee Jerk reaction and their instant response is legal action rather than how do we turn this around  asap. Clearly some questionable mgmt. on PSA, the board, etc.. 

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