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William Maley

GM News: GM's Upcoming Electric Onslaught

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On Wednesday, General Motors invited a number of media to their tech center in Warren, MI for their EV Day event. The company is making a big bet on electric vehicles with 11 new vehicles rolling out by 2025, featuring a new electric modular platform and battery tech. Here's what we know.

Third-Generation Electric Vehicle Platform

Underpinning this massive push is GM's new third-generation EV platform (BEV3). The new platform was designed to provide flexibility for different vehicle types - ranging from compact cars to pickup trucks. Battery packs are designed to be mounted beneath the passenger compartment to allow for a lower center of gravity. This results in more passenger room and improved handling. The platform also allows for different drive configurations - front, rear, or all-wheel drive - depending on the vehicle.

Ultium Battery Technology

Providing the electric power for these new models is what GM calls Ultium batteries. Working together with its battery partner LG Chem, the Ultium batteries are large-format, pouch-style cells that can either be stacked vertically or horizontally in packs. This will allow more flexibility for engineers to design battery packs for vehicles.

More important is the chemistry of the batteries. GM has reduced the amount Cobalt - an element used in the making of batteries that is becoming harder to find and expensive - by seventy percent. Instead, the batteries are using aluminum. This will hopefully bring down the price of the battery packs.

Battery capacity will range from 50 to 200 kilowatt hours - giving a projected max range of 400 miles depending on the vehicle. Level II and DC fast-charging are both supported.

The Vehicles

At the event, GM had 10 vehicles on display and one shown via digital renderings. The current plan is to start launching the new models beginning later this year.

  • Updated Chevrolet Bolt: The first vehicle to be launched in this offensive. It will get an updated interior with a more premium dash.
  • Chevrolet Bolt EUV: The crossover-variant of the Bolt, it is about five-inches longer and rides on a wheelbase that has been stretched by three inches. An updated roofline reportedly eliminates the small front windows on the Bolt. The EUV will also be the first model outside of Cadillac to get Super Cruise.
  • Chevrolet Midsize Crossover: About the same size as the Blazer, this model has an aggressive design and features a low roofline. A pair of 18-inch multimedia displays dominate the interior.
  • Chevrolet Full-Size Truck: This was the model only shown in digital renderings according to those who were at the event. It will complement the Silverado and be aimed at those who want something to be used on a job site - not like the upcoming GMC Hummer Truck or Rivian which are aimed more at lifestyle folks. This model is expected to arrive in 2025.
  • Buick Crossover and SUV: These two models didn't have a name and were wearing a design that was described by the Detroit Free Press as a "vaguely European look". 
  • GMC Hummer Truck: This will only be available in a crew-cab configuration with a five-foot bed. The design will be utilitarian and boxy. Inside, two large screens will serve as the instrument cluster and infotainment system. Don't expect any leather as many of materials used inside will be made from recycled materials. The truck will also have removable roof panels (like the Jeep Wrangler, that can be stored in the front trunk.
  • GMC Hummer SUV: Basically the same as the truck, albeit using a shorter wheelbase.
  • Cadillac Lyriq: We have seen teasers of this model last year and Cadillac dropped another this week showing off the silhouette - reminding us some crossovers from Jaguar and Porsche. The vehicle is wide and rides on 23-inch wheels. Size-wise, it is similar to the XT5. The interior boasts a 34-inch-wide high-def screen and seating for four, though the production model may have seating for five.
  • Cadillac Celestiq: A new four-door flagship sedan that has a long front end and a fastback rear according to those who saw the clay model. It will be hand-built and carry a six-figure pricetag.
  • Cadillac Large SUV: About the size of an Escalade, it be complementary vehicle to it. The model will have a more traditional design than the other Cadillac EVs. Inside, it will boast large screens up front and three-rows of seating.

Source: Roadshow, Detroit Free Press, The Drive, General Motors
Press Release is on Page 2


GM Reveals New Ultium Batteries and a Flexible Global Platform to Rapidly Grow its EV Portfolio

WARREN, Mich. – Starting today, General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is gathering hundreds of employees, dealers, investors, analysts, media and policymakers to share details of its strategy to grow the company’s electric vehicle (EV) sales quickly, efficiently and profitably.

“Our team accepted the challenge to transform product development at GM and position our company for an all-electric future,” said Mary Barra, GM chairman and CEO. “What we have done is build a multi-brand, multi-segment EV strategy with economies of scale that rival our full-size truck business with much less complexity and even more flexibility.”

The heart of GM’s strategy is a modular propulsion system and a highly flexible, third-generation global EV platform powered by proprietary Ultium batteries. They will allow the company to compete for nearly every customer in the market today, whether they are looking for affordable transportation, a luxury experience, work trucks or a high-performance machine.

“Thousands of GM scientists, engineers and designers are working to execute an historic reinvention of the company,” said GM President Mark Reuss. “They are on the cusp of delivering a profitable EV business that can satisfy millions of customers.”

Ultium Batteries and Propulsion System Highlights

  • GM’s new Ultium batteries are unique in the industry because the large-format, pouch-style cells can be stacked vertically or horizontally inside the battery pack. This allows engineers to optimize battery energy storage and layout for each vehicle design.
  • Ultium energy options range from 50 to 200 kWh, which could enable a GM-estimated range up to 400 miles or more on a full charge with 0 to 60 mph acceleration as low as 3 seconds. Motors designed in-house will support front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive applications.
  • Ultium-powered EVs are designed for Level 2 and DC fast charging. Most will have 400-volt battery packs and up to 200 kW fast-charging capability while our truck platform will have 800-volt battery packs and 350 kW fast-charging capability.

GM’s flexible, modular approach to EV development will drive significant economies of scale and create new revenue opportunities, including: 

  • Continuous Improvement in Battery Costs: GM’s joint venture with LG Chem will drive battery cell costs below $100/kWh. The cells use a proprietary low cobalt chemistry and ongoing technological and manufacturing breakthroughs will drive costs even lower.
  • Flexibility: GM’s all-new global platform is flexible enough to build a wide range of trucks, SUVs, crossovers, cars and commercial vehicles with outstanding design, performance, packaging, range and affordability.
  • Capital Efficiency: GM can spend less capital to scale its EV business because it is able to leverage existing property, including land, buildings, tools and production equipment such as body shops and paint shops.
  • Complexity Reduction: The vehicle and propulsion systems were designed together to minimize complexity and part counts beyond today’s EVs, which are less complex than conventional vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. For example, GM plans 19 different battery and drive unit configurations initially, compared with 550 internal combustion powertrain combinations available today.
  • Rising Customer Acceptance: Third-party forecasters expect U.S. EV volumes to more than double from 2025 to 2030 to about 3 million units on average. GM believes volumes could be materially higher as more EVs are launched in popular segments, charging networks grow and the total cost of ownership to consumers continues to fall.
  • New Sources of Revenue: By vertically integrating the manufacture of battery cells, the company can reach beyond its own fleet and license technology to others.

The first generation of GM’s future EV program will be profitable. The initial programs will pave the way for further accretive growth. GM’s technology can be scaled to meet customer demand much higher than the more than 1 million global sales the company expects mid-decade.

Upcoming Launches and Reveals

Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick will all be launching new EVs starting this year. The next new Chevrolet EV will be a new version of the Bolt EV, launching in late 2020, followed by the 2022 Bolt EUV, launching Summer 2021. The Bolt EUV will be the first vehicle outside of the Cadillac brand to feature Super Cruise, the industry's first true hands-free driving technology for the highway, which GM will expand to 22 vehicles by 2023, including 10 by next year.

The Cruise Origin, a self-driving, electric shared vehicle, shown to the public in January 2020 in San Francisco, was the first product revealed using GM’s third generation EV platform and Ultium batteries. Next will be the Cadillac Lyriq luxury SUV in April. Details about its launch will be shared then. The reveal of the Ultium-powered GMC HUMMER EV will follow on May 20. Production is expected to begin in Fall 2021 at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, GM’s first assembly plant 100 percent dedicated to EV production.


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Very exciting to see what the end result becomes once on the dealership lot.

I think a new auto will be in my future between 2021 to 2024 depending on release time.

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Thinking on this, GM could bring back a 21st century 442!

  • 4 = 400 kW of power
  • 4 = 4 Motors, AWD with Torque Vectoring
  • 2 = 2 door sports EV that kicks Tesla Ludicrous Mode!

I can envision many awesome driving machines with EV power trains on our Glorious Auto History.

@oldshurst442 What cha think?

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Posted (edited)

It's just not necessary, and I fail to see what marketing gain there would be.
It's especially egregious given the '4' in '442' specifically meant a specific  internal combustion V8.

442 has seen more than 1 revival; all paling against the original.
Perhaps 'enough is enough' there.

Edited by balthazar
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Im with Balthy on this. No need to do 442 nomenclature. For several reasons too, not JUST what Balthy said. What he said is but 3 reasons.

1. First and foremost. Oldsmobile is no longer a brand. A 442 is NOT a Chevy, nor a Buick. I would NEVER want a Cutlass/442 branded any other way other than Oldsmobile...so...

2.  Just not necessary. No marketing gain, especially when many folks dont remember what a 442 is,  at best. And at worst...dont know ANYTHING about it. 

3. I dont mind your definition of an electric 442. Im not going to be that fussy about it not being a 4 barrel carburetor, 4 speed manual trans and dual exhaust on a big cubed V8 because Oldsmobile themselves did one on the Quad 4 of it being 4 cylinder, 4 valves/cylinder, dual camshafts.

 About that...although it was a quick car in comparison to what was offered in the late 1980s early 1990s, and compared to what a muscle car 442 was in the 1960s and early 1970s, and that Quad 4 Calais 442 was probably a better 442 than the G-Body 442 was...

Both G-Body and Quad 4 442s lacked the menacing presence of the originals.

Like Balthy said. Enough is enough. Let the 442 rest in peace. 

Now...I would take a Cutlass body shell and I would marry it to a Tesla...or better yet...GM EV skateboard platform complete with batteries and motors and create my own 442.  THAT is what I would do if I was trying to restore a far too gone Cutlass barnyard find. with no engine and the like.  But for GM...let Cadillac and Chevy create new legends. 

 

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@oldshurst442 @balthazar

I understand what you both are saying. 

Yet, now that we have Hummer by GMC, I honestly could see GM do a Legends by GMC where they do special edition autos from Oldmobile, Pontiac, and even throw in a new 21st century EV Grand National by Buick.

From a marketing standpoint there is much they could do with and make money off some of the amazing bad ass rides from the past.

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7 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet, now that we have Hummer by GMC, I honestly could see GM do a Legends by GMC where they do special edition autos from Oldmobile, Pontiac, and even... Buick.

But..... no one gives 2 shits about Hummer's 'legacy', and Hummer was here only 10 minutes years ago.

Olds, Buick & Pontiac (especially) have legions of fans, mostly centered on the Divisions heydays. Strip-mining the history books for nameplates is irrelevant laziness, and inevitably would call up near constant comparisons; taking focus off the modern product. Let the heritage Divisions RIP ((UNLESS an official Olds or Pontiac nameplate is brought back. Then at least, we could talk).

Go strip-mine GMC's catalog.

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Posted (edited)

Let the faceless, soulless future stand or fall on its own.  Bringing back a meaningful name from the past and slapping it on a meaningless commodity BE3 anything would be pointless.  It's like a bad actor trying to elicit emotion in a totally disconnected (unplugged) audience.  Fake.

Edited by ocnblu
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Posted (edited)

Since the names from the past would mostly just appeal to an older audience that won’t be interested in EVs, they should avoid any retro or heritage image with the EVs.  They really have to focus on the future.    I can't really see GM's legacy customer base going for new EVs, these are going to have to appeal to new buyers that are seeking EVs..

Edited by Robert Hall
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The Chevy/Buick SUVs are important since that is the meat of the market.  They will have to beat out the Tesla Model Y and Mustang Mach E.  The pickup is also important since Cybertruck pre-sales look like there will be strong demand and that will really eat into Ford/GM/Ram sales, and for those brands that is the #1 profit maker.

 

Steve Carlisle said the Celestique will be over $200,000.  He must be outside his mind if he thinks people are going to pay more than Porsche Taycan prices for a Cadillac.  

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Taycan isn't all that. Plus, the range isn't worthy of it's price tag.

Only way tesla pickup 'eats into' Ram / GM / Ford sales is if it steals their customers. I don't remotely see that happening. The tesla truck "will have to beat out" Ram / GM / Ford, since they are the "meat of the market".

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2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Taycan isn't all that. Plus, the range isn't worthy of it's price tag.

Only way tesla pickup 'eats into' Ram / GM / Ford sales is if it steals their customers. I don't remotely see that happening. The tesla truck "will have to beat out" Ram / GM / Ford, since they are the "meat of the market".

Cybertruck has over 500,000 orders, where are those coming from?  There are only X number of full size truck buyers in the market.  People that never bought a truck or never thought of buying a pickup are not all of a sudden going to buy a Cybertruck.  I suspect F150, Ram 1500 and Silverado all see a 10-15% drop in sales the year Cybertruck goes on sale.  

Taycan is faster than a C8 Corvette and it says Porsche on it.  The Cadillac won't be faster than a Corvette, because the Corvette has to be the fastest car at GM, so the Celestique won't be faster than a Model S either, since the C8 is slower than a Model S.  And interiors have never been a Cadillac strong suit, they haven't had a best in class interior since like 1960 so I can't imagine all of a sudden they come up with a Bentley level interior for this car.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Cybertruck has over 500,000 orders, where are those coming from?  There are only X number of full size truck buyers in the market.  People that never bought a truck or never thought of buying a pickup are not all of a sudden going to buy a Cybertruck.  I suspect F150, Ram 1500 and Silverado all see a 10-15% drop in sales the year Cybertruck goes on sale.  

Taycan is faster than a C8 Corvette and it says Porsche on it.  The Cadillac won't be faster than a Corvette, because the Corvette has to be the fastest car at GM, so the Celestique won't be faster than a Model S either, since the C8 is slower than a Model S.  And interiors have never been a Cadillac strong suit, they haven't had a best in class interior since like 1960 so I can't imagine all of a sudden they come up with a Bentley level interior for this car.

Yeah I remember the Tesla 3 having similar preorder numbers yet has not sold near that. It also did not eat into its alleged competition. The Cyber Truck will not sway any serious RAM/Ford/GM owner just because it ugly as hell. Simply the ugliest damn thing on wheels I have ever seen released to the masses and that’s saying something. 
 

Your second paragraph doesn’t even merit a response because you choose to focus only on the domestics like Daimler won’t take the same kind of hit. 

Edited by surreal1272
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Posted (edited)

 

 

  • Updated Chevrolet Bolt: The first vehicle to be launched in this offensive. It will get an updated interior with a more premium dash.

too small to be useful to many, will never sell in huge volume at that size.  good thing the cheap dash will get an update.

  • Chevrolet Bolt EUV: The crossover-variant of the Bolt, it is about five-inches longer and rides on a wheelbase that has been stretched by three inches. An updated roofline reportedly eliminates the small front windows on the Bolt. The EUV will also be the first model outside of Cadillac to get Super Cruise.

how is this a substantial size increase over the Bolt?  what is the point?

  • Chevrolet Midsize Crossover: About the same size as the Blazer, this model has an aggressive design and features a low roofline. A pair of 18-inch multimedia displays dominate the interior.

May actually have a chance as a volume model.  As long as it is as big as the Blazer or Edge and not the size the of the Equinox but labelled 'midsize'.

  • Chevrolet Full-Size Truck: This was the model only shown in digital renderings according to those who were at the event. It will complement the Silverado and be aimed at those who want something to be used on a job site - not like the upcoming GMC Hummer Truck or Rivian which are aimed more at lifestyle folks. This model is expected to arrive in 2025.

Not sure how this will be received.  Seems more like a model for PR purposes rather than for actual sale.

  • Buick Crossover and SUV: These two models didn't have a name and were wearing a design that was described by the Detroit Free Press as a "vaguely European look". 

May be useful to Buick, same points as the midsize crossover apply otherwise.

  • GMC Hummer Truck: This will only be available in a crew-cab configuration with a five-foot bed. The design will be utilitarian and boxy. Inside, two large screens will serve as the instrument cluster and infotainment system. Don't expect any leather as many of materials used inside will be made from recycled materials. The truck will also have removable roof panels (like the Jeep Wrangler, that can be stored in the front trunk.

Simply a PR vehicle.

  • GMC Hummer SUV: Basically the same as the truck, albeit using a shorter wheelbase.

PR vehicle, won't add to market share.

  • Cadillac Lyriq: We have seen teasers of this model last year and Cadillac dropped another this week showing off the silhouette - reminding us some crossovers from Jaguar and Porsche. The vehicle is wide and rides on 23-inch wheels. Size-wise, it is similar to the XT5. The interior boasts a 34-inch-wide high-def screen and seating for four, though the production model may have seating for five.

Cadillac's excuse for not providing a knockout XT6 or a new XT5 is what this will be.  Then they can say they ran out of cash to make replacements for the XT5 and XT6.

  • Cadillac Celestiq: A new four-door flagship sedan that has a long front end and a fastback rear according to those who saw the clay model. It will be hand-built and carry a six-figure pricetag.

Cadillac's excuse for not providing a new flagship or keeping the CT6 is what this will be.  Then they can claim to justify a low volume electric sedan rather than work to market the most competitive sedan market with the gas cars.

  • Cadillac Large SUV: About the size of an Escalade, it be complementary vehicle to it. The model will have a more traditional design than the other Cadillac EVs. Inside, it will boast large screens up front and three-rows of seating.

As long as you still have the Escalade which it seems they are at least smart enough to never get rid of.

 

So,

most of this list is PR cars.  The chevy and buick midsize crossovers are the only ones that have a chance to become useful daily driver replacements in volume.  GM still has to provide resources to refresh and develop new and existing gas models.  They cannot stop keeping up with improvements by falling back on some BS about bringing electric vehicles to market, because this list is mostly niche.  

And even so, what has GM done to help with the charge network?  Will these vehicles charge in 10 minutes and have a range of 300+ miles including in a cold winter?  SOmebody has to build a charge network, when will this happen GM?

It's like building these models is an excuse to abandon development and improvements on the vehicles that still will make up the real daily drivers for most.

Where is the Tesla Model 3 or Model S challenger?  I am starting to see a lot of model 3's, it seems a chevy sedan with range and space, and performance in the neighborhood of a Tesla but with a better price could be a car that starts to turn the market to electrics.  

I imagine these models are going to be pricey so that is the strategy, not try to move electric to the mainstream....sell high priced models to help pay for incremental development of electric drives and chassis, just to claim you are woke and on the leading edge.

We won't see any movement to provide that charge network in convenient ways like now until the masses get into electric.  And generally, if you build the road first, then the growth happens.  The charge network / convenient charging is the road, that is what actually needs to be known first, when is this charge network built and where.  There is no plan / no road to speak of.  If the road is not there, then don't expect any demand.

 

 

 

 

Edited by regfootball
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1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

Yeah I remember the Tesla 3 having similar preorder numbers yet has not sold near that. It also did not eat into its alleged competition. The Cyber Truck will not sway any serious RAM/Ford/GM owner just because it ugly as hell. Simply the ugliest damn thing on wheels I have ever seen released to the masses and that’s saying something. 
 

Your second paragraph doesn’t even merit a response because you choose to focus only on the domestics like Daimler won’t take the same kind of hit. 

Daimler, BMW and VW have taken a hit from Tesla.  As have Cadillac, Lexus and Infiniti.  Look at how all those brands are seeing their sedan sales die off yet Tesla is cranking out Model 3's and S's are a pretty good clip.

Cadillac Celestique won't sell, it will be a bigger failure than the ELR was.  No one will take a hit from that other than Cadillac.

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1 hour ago, regfootball said:

 

Where is the Tesla Model 3 or Model S challenger?  

 

The Model S challenger is the Celestique but it is double the price and slower.  A winning strategy.

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Model S sales in the US peaked some years ago, and have dropped since. Tesla is acutely aware of this, proven by the company otherwise-inexplicably combining model s & X sales number together. Hides the slump. Model S is old-old-old at this point, and the Model X's curfuffle with making the REAR doors 'wing' up was a flop.

Daimler is 10 years behind Tesla and still has nothing to offer. Despite them claiming they are hard and work turning over a new leaf, the company is in high investment retreat- the EQS was delayed before it was even unveiled. Firing engineers & designers not a way to combat Tesla.

General Motors on the other hand has shown just how serious they are. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, the Corporation is dedicated.

So, most of this list is PR cars.


Reg is a the-glass-is-half-full, maybe-less, and-I-can-see-it-evaporating-from-here type, ain't he?

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@dwightlooi I would like your thoughts on this HET Electric motor.

https://www.autoblog.com/2020/03/08/hunstable-electric-turbine/

I think this has great potential and it will be interesting to see who brings this to market first. American, European, Asian or Chinese. Yes I took Chinese out of the Asian group as they are bigger and very different than the others.

1 hour ago, regfootball said:

 

 

  • Updated Chevrolet Bolt: The first vehicle to be launched in this offensive. It will get an updated interior with a more premium dash.

too small to be useful to many, will never sell in huge volume at that size.  good thing the cheap dash will get an update.

  • Chevrolet Bolt EUV: The crossover-variant of the Bolt, it is about five-inches longer and rides on a wheelbase that has been stretched by three inches. An updated roofline reportedly eliminates the small front windows on the Bolt. The EUV will also be the first model outside of Cadillac to get Super Cruise.

how is this a substantial size increase over the Bolt?  what is the point?

  • Chevrolet Midsize Crossover: About the same size as the Blazer, this model has an aggressive design and features a low roofline. A pair of 18-inch multimedia displays dominate the interior.

May actually have a chance as a volume model.  As long as it is as big as the Blazer or Edge and not the size the of the Equinox but labelled 'midsize'.

  • Chevrolet Full-Size Truck: This was the model only shown in digital renderings according to those who were at the event. It will complement the Silverado and be aimed at those who want something to be used on a job site - not like the upcoming GMC Hummer Truck or Rivian which are aimed more at lifestyle folks. This model is expected to arrive in 2025.

Not sure how this will be received.  Seems more like a model for PR purposes rather than for actual sale.

  • Buick Crossover and SUV: These two models didn't have a name and were wearing a design that was described by the Detroit Free Press as a "vaguely European look". 

May be useful to Buick, same points as the midsize crossover apply otherwise.

  • GMC Hummer Truck: This will only be available in a crew-cab configuration with a five-foot bed. The design will be utilitarian and boxy. Inside, two large screens will serve as the instrument cluster and infotainment system. Don't expect any leather as many of materials used inside will be made from recycled materials. The truck will also have removable roof panels (like the Jeep Wrangler, that can be stored in the front trunk.

Simply a PR vehicle.

  • GMC Hummer SUV: Basically the same as the truck, albeit using a shorter wheelbase.

PR vehicle, won't add to market share.

  • Cadillac Lyriq: We have seen teasers of this model last year and Cadillac dropped another this week showing off the silhouette - reminding us some crossovers from Jaguar and Porsche. The vehicle is wide and rides on 23-inch wheels. Size-wise, it is similar to the XT5. The interior boasts a 34-inch-wide high-def screen and seating for four, though the production model may have seating for five.

Cadillac's excuse for not providing a knockout XT6 or a new XT5 is what this will be.  Then they can say they ran out of cash to make replacements for the XT5 and XT6.

  • Cadillac Celestiq: A new four-door flagship sedan that has a long front end and a fastback rear according to those who saw the clay model. It will be hand-built and carry a six-figure pricetag.

Cadillac's excuse for not providing a new flagship or keeping the CT6 is what this will be.  Then they can claim to justify a low volume electric sedan rather than work to market the most competitive sedan market with the gas cars.

  • Cadillac Large SUV: About the size of an Escalade, it be complementary vehicle to it. The model will have a more traditional design than the other Cadillac EVs. Inside, it will boast large screens up front and three-rows of seating.

As long as you still have the Escalade which it seems they are at least smart enough to never get rid of.

So,

most of this list is PR cars.  The chevy and buick midsize crossovers are the only ones that have a chance to become useful daily driver replacements in volume.  GM still has to provide resources to refresh and develop new and existing gas models.  They cannot stop keeping up with improvements by falling back on some BS about bringing electric vehicles to market, because this list is mostly niche.  

And even so, what has GM done to help with the charge network?  Will these vehicles charge in 10 minutes and have a range of 300+ miles including in a cold winter?  SOmebody has to build a charge network, when will this happen GM?

It's like building these models is an excuse to abandon development and improvements on the vehicles that still will make up the real daily drivers for most.

Where is the Tesla Model 3 or Model S challenger?  I am starting to see a lot of model 3's, it seems a chevy sedan with range and space, and performance in the neighborhood of a Tesla but with a better price could be a car that starts to turn the market to electrics.  

I imagine these models are going to be pricey so that is the strategy, not try to move electric to the mainstream....sell high priced models to help pay for incremental development of electric drives and chassis, just to claim you are woke and on the leading edge.

We won't see any movement to provide that charge network in convenient ways like now until the masses get into electric.  And generally, if you build the road first, then the growth happens.  The charge network / convenient charging is the road, that is what actually needs to be known first, when is this charge network built and where.  There is no plan / no road to speak of.  If the road is not there, then don't expect any demand.

So your Glass is half empty and leaking by the second. Got it, you see GM as dying and going away one day. Right...........

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8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Model S challenger is the Celestique but it is double the price and slower.

Fastest modified Model S ludicrious mode + Upgrade quarter mile (after waiting an hour to warm the batteries and making sure it was charged to 99%) is 10.4 secs- it barely beat out the C7. When the top engine C8 Corvette debuts, it'll demolish that time. Or would you like to compare the current base C8 to the long range 100 kw trim without ludicrious mode, without Upgrade and without warming the batteries for an hour??

But I welcome your link to the Cadillac's Celestiq performance claims - I hadn't seen that that was released.

BTW- at the price tier, the 'premium-class' Model S is many tiers below the future Cadillac flagship (finally we have a new Cadillac flagship!). Model S doesn't compare. Hell, it doesn't compare to a S-Class.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler, BMW and VW have taken a hit from Tesla.  As have Cadillac, Lexus and Infiniti.  Look at how all those brands are seeing their sedan sales die off yet Tesla is cranking out Model 3's and S's are a pretty good clip.

Cadillac Celestique won't sell, it will be a bigger failure than the ELR was.  No one will take a hit from that other than Cadillac.

Well it sure as $h! won’t be because of this interior you have yet to see yet are quick to damn. You also spoke of quality like somehow the Tesla is a bastion of reliability and quality when it has been the complete opposite since day one. It’s interior is cheap garbage too. Don’t get me wrong. I like that Tesla has forced the big boys to up their game but they have a ways to go before they reach the quality of even Cadillac despite all of your naysaying.
 

Hell, I’m still look for a Daimler EV that measures up but they yet to produce that future dud because of delay after delay. 

53 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Model S challenger is the Celestique but it is double the price and slower.  A winning strategy.

Yet you have zero information on the Cadillacs specs and performance. Might I ask where you got your crystal ball or is talking out of your posterior just easier to do than presenting actual facts?
 

Good grief. Try to make the trolling not look so obvious next time. 

Edited by surreal1272
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14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Cybertruck has over 500,000 orders, where are those coming from?  There are only X number of full size truck buyers in the market.  People that never bought a truck or never thought of buying a pickup are not all of a sudden going to buy a Cybertruck.  I suspect F150, Ram 1500 and Silverado all see a 10-15% drop in sales the year Cybertruck goes on sale.

I bet the D3 would remain almost flat +/- 2%. It only took a $100 refundable deposit to "order" a Cybertruck. 

And no, there isn't a solid number of truck buyers in the market, especially when you add in a slowly growing EV market. The number clearly jumps around every year with variables changing every year. What happens when the F150 and Silverado EVs come out first? 

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Model S challenger is the Celestique but it is double the price and slower.  A winning strategy.

Isn't it like 3 years out at this point? I don't think judging it's alleged speed/acceleration is too accurate. 

For all we know, it'll actually run 0-60 in 2.5 seconds with a 600 mile range. We just don't know. It's too far out there. 

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12 hours ago, dfelt said:

 

So your Glass is half empty and leaking by the second. Got it, you see GM as dying and going away one day. Right...........

A friend once told me that my perspective sometimes was 'there is no glass'... 

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1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I bet the D3 would remain almost flat +/- 2%. It only took a $100 refundable deposit to "order" a Cybertruck. 

And no, there isn't a solid number of truck buyers in the market, especially when you add in a slowly growing EV market. The number clearly jumps around every year with variables changing every year. What happens when the F150 and Silverado EVs come out first? 

Isn't it like 3 years out at this point? I don't think judging it's alleged speed/acceleration is too accurate. 

For all we know, it'll actually run 0-60 in 2.5 seconds with a 600 mile range. We just don't know. It's too far out there. 

That last part is exactly my point when talking how asinine his assumptions are just because it’s GM we are talking about here. 

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In 2019, GM sold about 450,000 Equinox + Terrain compact crossovers.

If you are really serious about moving people into electrics (electrics, not hybrids), should you not assume you want to start eating away at chunks of your gas vehicle lineup and replace it with electric?

I see no plan here as being things other than PR because if they were serious i would read something to the effect of 'The all new all electric only 2022 Chevy Equinox will arrive and is intended to replace half the volume of gas equinox'.  A volume segment, which would make real sense to make a big push to move the market to electric.  Imagine a 2022 Electric Equinox + Terrain to replace the current models.  That would actually sell.  Or why not a new mid size sedan all electric to compete with the Model 3?  Or a 3 row crossover Acadia sized +/-, another high volume segment.

Neat thing to see the other day, at the auto show, the newest Accord hybrid.  48 mpg epa.  Look in the trunk, no 'battery hump' to speak of.  Doesn't it still make sense to invest in some hybrids, just make them the right size with real choices of options.  Volt was a bit of a failure because it was too small and you couldn't get power seats or sunroofs.

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There are multitudes of truth in the other direction though.  To go "all out" on EV and ignore 98% of your customers is in the ludicrous range.

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9 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I bet the D3 would remain almost flat +/- 2%. It only took a $100 refundable deposit to "order" a Cybertruck. 

And no, there isn't a solid number of truck buyers in the market, especially when you add in a slowly growing EV market. The number clearly jumps around every year with variables changing every year. What happens when the F150 and Silverado EVs come out first? 

Isn't it like 3 years out at this point? I don't think judging it's alleged speed/acceleration is too accurate. 

For all we know, it'll actually run 0-60 in 2.5 seconds with a 600 mile range. We just don't know. It's too far out there. 

The Model S is getting dated, that vehicle needs an update, mostly with styling and interior, since they are still fast and like 2.4 seconds 0-60 with ludicrous.

GM won’t allow a car to be faster than a Corvette, especially not a Cadillac sedan.  So the Celestique will be slower than the C8.  Now that isn’t a problem if luxury is off the charts, Bentley, Rolls and Maybach S-class don’t really crack the 4 second 0-60 barrier but they have luxury.  Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so I want to know how they think they can have a car that costs more than double an Escalade ? 

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Also, Allante was a failure, XLR a failure, STS-V a failure, ELR a failure.  CT6 and CTS-V 3rd Gen did okay but got killed off so couldn't have been that good.  Those are all cars under $100k, but all Cadillac attempts to go up market.  Now they want to go to $200k, more than double the price of those other cars that didn't make it.

And really the measuring stick for this is how well will the Equinox sized EV sells.  They need an EV in the heart of the market that can do big volumes for this to work.  Car companies aren't build on vanity projects, they are built on those 3-4 core products that do crazy volumes.

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Maybe the real issue with Cadillac is that everyone is measuring Cadillac by MB/BMW/Audi standards. 

An American marque is NOT raised on the autobahn and will never be (Corvette aside) a BMW 3 series.  The real question is simple: what do you want in a luxury vehicle?  Yes I am aware that the Cadillac coupes have failed since the first Allante 30 years ago.  No Cadillac will not go the way of Bentley or Rolls Royce (>$200K) because there are simply too many Cadillacs on the road and are easily available in the used car market.  As long as Boomers still basically despise (if not hate) almost anything made in the USA, the luxury market will still be speaking German (and sometimes Japanese).

Cadillac does NEED a unique selling point that is so desirable, even Boomers will trade in their German luxury cars (and crossovers) post haste.  Then again, Cadillac should aim for everyone born after 1970, rather than before 1960.

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57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

CTS-V 3rd Gen did okay but got killed off so couldn't have been that good.  Those are all cars under $100k...

Car companies... are built on those 3-4 core products that do crazy volumes.

• CTS-V came out in 2004, and the 4th generation is coming with a (simple name tweak) as the CT5-V. It's not "killed off".
• What EV is doing "crazy volume"??

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Then again, Cadillac should aim for everyone born after 1970, rather than before 1960.

Cadillac aims for the exact same demographic as mercedes, which is how the 2 brand's ABA are only about 4 years apart.

Edited by balthazar
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54 minutes ago, balthazar said:

• CTS-V came out in 2004, and the 4th generation is coming with a (simple name tweak) as the CT5-V. It's not "killed off".
• What EV is doing "crazy volume"??

No EV does crazy volume, Model 3 does pretty well though.  But Ford is built on the F150, Explorer and Escape, GM on Silverado, Equinox, Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade, Toyota the Corolla, Camry, RAv4, etc.  These brands do most of the business on a few core models.  

EV's are vanity projects that sell 20k units a year for most brands.  What someone (other than Tesla) needs is an EV that is one of their big sellers.  Whoever can get an EV that is selling 300k units a year is going to gain massive advantage.  That is what I'd like to see GM crack the code with the Chevy SUV, can they make an electric SUV that sells in Equinox volume.

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1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Maybe the real issue with Cadillac is that everyone is measuring Cadillac by MB/BMW/Audi standards. 

No Cadillac will not go the way of Bentley or Rolls Royce (>$200K) because there are simply too many Cadillacs on the road and are easily available in the used car market. 

Cadillac does NEED a unique selling point that is so desirable, even Boomers will trade in their German luxury cars (and crossovers) post haste.  Then again, Cadillac should aim for everyone born after 1970, rather than before 1960.

Cadillac has to be held to some standard, they should be trying to combine Lexus reliability, with Tesla technology and Porsche Performance into a package.  They have to beat those benchmark brands in product if they want the sales and profits.

Cadillac's president said the Celestique will start over $200k.  So that is going after Bentley, no one is going to spend $200k on a Cadillac unless it is was somehow nicer than a Rolls-Royce with Bugatti-like performance and then they'd lose money on every one sold.  It is like how VW built the Phaeton to the highest specifications possible but it wasn't going to sell with a VW badge on the front even if it was a better car than the W220 S-class.  All that did was motivate Mercedes to make the W221 the best car in the world, and the the Phaeton was gone.

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Posted (edited)
Quote

Whoever can get an EV that is selling 300k units a year is going to gain massive advantage.

Well, sure; they can just snap their corporate fingers and change millions of minds in a slit second, suddenly consumers will be nearly possessed to go spend a minimal additional $20K to get the same vehicle with an electric motor. It really is that easy; just say it & it will happen like a lightning strike.

 

Or, you know- it may well take a few decades to go 'massive'. It's already taken 1 and it's still barely OK for one single model.

12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Ford is built on the F150, Explorer and Escape, GM on Silverado, Equinox, Tahoe/Yukon/Escalade, Toyota the Corolla, Camry, RAv4, etc.  These brands do most of the business on a few core models.

ALL BRANDS do most of their business on a few core models, even luxury brands. Look at audi, for example; they could kill fully 50% of their models and see less than a 5% change in volume.
But trucks / SUVs are running what; 80% of all vehicle sales now? And still growing? Putting your eegs in one 'truck/SUV basket' is very shrewd business.

Edited by balthazar
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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Model S is getting dated, that vehicle needs an update, mostly with styling and interior, since they are still fast and like 2.4 seconds 0-60 with ludicrous.

GM won’t allow a car to be faster than a Corvette, especially not a Cadillac sedan.  So the Celestique will be slower than the C8.  Now that isn’t a problem if luxury is off the charts, Bentley, Rolls and Maybach S-class don’t really crack the 4 second 0-60 barrier but they have luxury.  Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so I want to know how they think they can have a car that costs more than double an Escalade ? 

“GM won’t allow” is the reason why you are wrong because you have absolutely zero proof and there is zero reason for them to do such a thing. Again, show us this crystal ball of yours and prove us wrong. Otherwise, it’s just more hard trolling. 

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Also, Allante was a failure, XLR a failure, STS-V a failure, ELR a failure.  CT6 and CTS-V 3rd Gen did okay but got killed off so couldn't have been that good.  Those are all cars under $100k, but all Cadillac attempts to go up market.  Now they want to go to $200k, more than double the price of those other cars that didn't make it.

And really the measuring stick for this is how well will the Equinox sized EV sells.  They need an EV in the heart of the market that can do big volumes for this to work.  Car companies aren't build on vanity projects, they are built on those 3-4 core products that do crazy volumes.

Shall we list the many Daimler failures or does it only matter when GM fails? (Looks at how many attempts they’ve had with Maybach alone and laughs at your GM criticism). How long has Mercedes been trying to play in Rolls Royce territory and failing miserably? 
 

Fact. All manufacturers have had plenty of duds over the course of time. This is just dumb and pointless argument. 

Edited by surreal1272
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14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

The Model S is getting dated, that vehicle needs an update, mostly with styling and interior, since they are still fast and like 2.4 seconds 0-60 with ludicrous.

GM won’t allow a car to be faster than a Corvette, especially not a Cadillac sedan.  So the Celestique will be slower than the C8.  Now that isn’t a problem if luxury is off the charts, Bentley, Rolls and Maybach S-class don’t really crack the 4 second 0-60 barrier but they have luxury.  Cadillac hasn’t had a class leading interior in 50 years so I want to know how they think they can have a car that costs more than double an Escalade ? 

Sure they would. They never detuned the Camaro ZL1 from the Z06. The only reason the CTS-V has a slight drop in power is packaging. 

I don't think they'd have any issue with a Cadillac branded vehicle being quicker, especially because we're talking straight-line only and a Vette would still walk it in corners and braking where the EV's weight would kill it. 

13 hours ago, riviera74 said:

Maybe the real issue with Cadillac is that everyone is measuring Cadillac by MB/BMW/Audi standards.

That's going to happen when you make a mirror image of a 3 Series... 

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It is going to be interesting the next few years to watch the new GM EVs and see how they are received in the market and how they sell...

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1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

It is going to be interesting the next few years to watch the new GM EVs and see how they are received in the market and how they sell...

Escalade EV and Hummer EV are on our list now for the wife along with Rivian and Mustang Mach e. 

I know many of my coworkers are excited to see these coming as many are on 8 to 10 year old auto's awaiting CUV/SUV EVs that are bigger than a Leaf / Bolt.

I truly believe we have pent up demand as people want what they have in current ICE auto's but in EV and as these come to market with much less maintenance, I suspect we will see a big change to EVs with a drop in value on used ICE auto's that should help folks get into first auto's.

I think we are at a cusp point where over the next 2-3 years we will start to see a major change in type of auto's that are purchased.

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18 hours ago, balthazar said:

Your body of proof?

If priced correctly, yes.  Compact crossover is the hottest market in the industry and it would presume that GM could sell them at a price that could sell in volume to replace some of the Tesla's being sold.  Which gets back to my original comment.  No they won't sell as much if the charging network is not there.  Which is why those whole 'electric car push' is PR move from GM.  It's not sincere to push the electrics until you can push them in volume to replace the gas cars.

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GM won't be dependent on a proprietary charging network, though?   I assume they are building product to use the standard charging stations..

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17 hours ago, ocnblu said:

There are multitudes of truth in the other direction though.  To go "all out" on EV and ignore 98% of your customers is in the ludicrous range.

That too, then why would they waste so much time and resources to make all these pressers about niche products like a 200,000 dollar sedan that no one will buy?  That's the part where i said earlier that GM still needs to provide full resources to redesign and introduce and keep their current vehicle lines fresh.

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2 minutes ago, regfootball said:

That too, then why would they waste so much time and resources to make all these pressers about niche products like a 200,000 dollar sedan that no one will buy?  That's the part where i said earlier that GM still needs to provide full resources to redesign and introduce and keep their current vehicle lines fresh.

Who says no one will buy a $200,000 Cadillac sedan?

You sound like SMK making assumptions where there is no proof yet.

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38 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Escalade EV and Hummer EV are on our list now for the wife along with Rivian and Mustang Mach e. 

I know many of my coworkers are excited to see these coming as many are on 8 to 10 year old auto's awaiting CUV/SUV EVs that are bigger than a Leaf / Bolt.

I truly believe we have pent up demand as people want what they have in current ICE auto's but in EV and as these come to market with much less maintenance, I suspect we will see a big change to EVs with a drop in value on used ICE auto's that should help folks get into first auto's.

I think we are at a cusp point where over the next 2-3 years we will start to see a major change in type of auto's that are purchased.

I get what you are saying however, if there is no charge network that is as convenient as gas stations, then no, not in 2-3 years.

Just now, dfelt said:

Who says no one will buy a $200,000 Cadillac sedan?

You sound like SMK making assumptions where there is no proof yet.

until they have exceptional interior quality, no chance in hell.

5 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

GM won't be dependent on a proprietary charging network, though?   I assume they are building product to use the standard charging stations..

i have seen no plan from any company or government of any charge network for the annual replacement sales of 17 million vehicles a year to be built nationwide.  that 48 mpg Honda Accord hybrid keeps looking better all the time.

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3 minutes ago, regfootball said:

I get what you are saying however, if there is no charge network that is as convenient as gas stations, then no, not in 2-3 years.

until they have exceptional interior quality, no chance in hell.

Your showing a very narrow understanding of this country in saying no charging network. Midwest is lacking I agree. East coast is growing and west coast has them all over. I see no problem especially since with the right auto's most people will charge at home. Yet out on a road trip, you can find many level 3 chargers even in remote areas.

I have published this before over the last 5 to 10 years: http://westcoastgreenhighway.com/electrichighway.htm

States are also making it very clear on the growth of charging networks like this site: https://goelectric.oregon.gov/charge-your-ev

Plus we DO NOT need Charging stations like gas stations when you can have charging at so many various places like Malls, work, restaurants, etc.

https://www.plugincars.com/ultimate-guide-electric-car-charging-networks-126530.html

@Drew Dowdell Has repeatably stated this is a change in thinking and ICE thinking is not the approach you need to take with EVs.

In regards to your no chance in hell, NO ONE has seen what this interior is capable of and yet we have seen the interiors of the New Escalade, so clearly there is capability there.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, dfelt said:

I know many of my coworkers are excited to see these coming as many are on 8 to 10 year old auto's awaiting CUV/SUV EVs that are bigger than a Leaf / Bolt.

I truly believe we have pent up demand...

Model X has been available for some years- why aren’t they all already in one of those?

Edited by balthazar
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1 minute ago, balthazar said:

Model X has been available for some years- why aren’t they all already in one of those?

Because it's a $80k shitbox? 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, regfootball said:

Which is why those whole 'electric car push' is PR move from GM.  It's not sincere to push the electrics until you can push them in volume to replace the gas cars.

Who’s pushing electric cars in volume??

And when the answer to that is ‘no one’, then EVERYONE ‘pushing’ EVs is merely doing PR.

By the very nature of commerce, every somewhat different product in a segment sees slow, incremental growth- look at one of the highest volume cars in history- the VW beetle.

3 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Because it's a $80k shitbox? 

It is?!?! Every published source out there says it’s Sliced Bread 2.0; it's a Tesla!!

Edited by balthazar

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2 minutes ago, balthazar said:

 

It is?!?! Every published source out there says it’s Sliced Bread 2.0; it's a Tesla!!

Everything I've read about it is that it is a trouble prone POS, esp. those stupid falcon doors...

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19 hours ago, ocnblu said:

There are multitudes of truth in the other direction though.  To go "all out" on EV and ignore 98% of your customers is in the ludicrous range.

Yet you don’t use that same logic when makes push diesels that people, outside of HD pickup buyers, don’t want. Interesting. 

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1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

GM won't be dependent on a proprietary charging network, though?   I assume they are building product to use the standard charging stations..

true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

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Just now, regfootball said:

true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

Which are being built...ChargePoint, etc...

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22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Who’s pushing electric cars in volume??

And when the answer to that is ‘no one’, then EVERYONE ‘pushing’ EVs is merely doing PR.

By the very nature of commerce, every somewhat different product in a segment sees slow, incremental growth- look at one of the highest volume cars in history- the VW beetle.

It is?!?! Every published source out there says it’s Sliced Bread 2.0; it's a Tesla!!

at the end of the day its my main rag at GM right now.  All the PR bullshit about electric cars and all the resources down the drain keeping them from updating their core product lines.

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Silverado/Sierra is only 18 months old. 😉

True, and the full size SUVs are new, as is the Corvette.    The rest of their US product line is just forgettable FWD appliances.  

Edited by Robert Hall
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2 hours ago, balthazar said:

Model X has been available for some years- why aren’t they all already in one of those?

Easy, tight interior room, poor interior layout. Only hard core Tesla fans buy the X and pay the crazy price. Northwest has a vary tall population. You will find most men at 6' or taller and with the Tesla X as to why I never bought is that once I was in the front, you had maybe 2" of space between the back of the front seat and the rear bottom seat pad. No one can sit behind a tall person. 

Tesla in this regards has made an ERROR in sizing the interior seats for an average  5' 8" tall even though their beloved CEO is 6'2" tall, no one can sit behind him.

Plus price along with quality is the other point.

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So.... vehicle compromises, quality issues and priced too high.

What new vehicle were we talking about again??

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5 hours ago, dfelt said:

Who says no one will buy a $200,000 Cadillac sedan?

You sound like SMK making assumptions where there is no proof yet.

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

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40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

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1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
 

I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

 

Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

1 minute ago, balthazar said:

[Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

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33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

[Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

#2 at GM?

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32 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

 

Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

Maybach is doing well, 2019 was a sales record for the Maybach S-class with sales up over 10% despite global S-class sales down 8% being that it is in it's 6 model year.   They have expanded to a 2nd model, which being an SUV will do well for sure.  Mercedes got Maybach wrong on the first reboot, but this 2nd try they got it right and they are on the rise now.

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1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

Mistake on my part, I meant CT6, the big sedan.

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Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

They found a soft spot in the market around $175-$250k that is above where Audi and BMW end and before Rolls and Bentley  begin for the most part.  And they took that space over.  I don't know why there isn't a Maybach G-class which would make way more sense than an AMG G-class.  An electric G-wagen is coming though, could be a nice place to do a Maybach version.

 

Edited by smk4565

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They had a sad, dumpy design and they couldn't hold the line on quality- it was built worse than the s-class. Catastrophic failure.

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Current info on ATP's and Hyundai seems to beat the heck out of Mercedes-Benz.

TO QUOTE:

Average transaction prices (ATPs) in January started off 2020 much like they ended 2019: rising. The market saw a 3.5% year-over-year gain in January, to nearly $38,000. The gain was driven mostly by a heavier truck/SUV sales mix, as car share fell to 25% in January, down from 30% in January 2019. Both trucks and SUVs gained, as trucks rose to 19% of the market (up from 17% from January 2019), and SUVs climbed to 52% (up from 48%). Had the sales mix remained steady from a year ago, the year-over-year increase in ATPs would have only been about 1.5%.

image.png

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

 

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Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

image.png

@smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

  1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
  2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
  3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
  4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
  5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

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Well, well, well, well. Isn't that interesting, especially in light of someone who might (mightily erroneously) claim 'Cadillac is competing with Acura' :

Screen Shot 2020-03-11 at 11.03.37 PM.png

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18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

image.png

@smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

  1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
  2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
  3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
  4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
  5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

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8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Well, well, well, well. Isn't that interesting, especially in light of someone who might (mightily erroneously) claim 'Cadillac is competing with Acura' :

Screen Shot 2020-03-11 at 11.03.37 PM.png

I'd like to see what that Cadillac number is when CT4 and CT5 are on sale, and CT6 is out of dealers.  

CT4 is $33k, CT5 is $37k, XT4 is $36k, and XT5 is $44k.  4 of their 6 vehicles are under $45k to start, and I know options get added on, but still, half their lineup now starts under $37k.  

ATP for a brand is also a meaningless metric, Maserati has a great ATP, and it is a borderline dead brand.  Jaguar leas that list and they are near dead in the water.    ATP per segment is more relevant if you want to compare.   Mercedes has 4 models starting under $40k so their brand ATP is pulled down but Mercedes sells more cars over $100k than any one.  More than Bentley, BMW, Audi, Lamborghini, Rolls, etc and probably more than those 5 combined if we are being honest.

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8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

image.png

Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

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I looked up some numbers, the G-wagen alone outsold all Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Rolls-Royce globally in 2019.  And they sold 71,700 S-class sedans so with coupe/convertible that has to be at least 80,000 and the cheapest V6 rear drive S-class with no options is $94k, which  means 99% of them are going to sticker over $100k.    Mercedes sold 4200 AMG GT in the US alone, so that number is probably more like 15-20k globally, plus the SL, the AMG 63 cars, the GLS V8's etc.  They are easily doing over 200,000 units a year of $100k and up product.  That's impressive.  

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18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

image.png

Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

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