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regfootball

PRESS: Japanese Govt paid for Toyota Hybrid system

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It hardly seems fair to Detroit to compare its efforts in the hybrid arena to Toyota's. Chrysler's Press says when he was at Toyota, "the Japanese government paid for 100% of the development of the battery and hybrid system that went into the Toyota Prius."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23793222/page/2/

ah, it comes out

y'all still want to keep humping toyota's leg now?

Edited by regfootball
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So that's why Toyota is raking in so much profit the last few years...must be nice to have things paid for by your own government!

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Well, that explains why Toyota was able to sell the Prius at a profit so soon after production began.

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Why the American government doesn't help any of their manufacturers is beyond me.

A good step would be to take the health care costs from them. It would be step #1 towards a national health care system - nationalize the auto workers health care first, see how that goes, make adjustments. Then after a while, bring it to the public.

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Y'know, my disagreements with Enzl over the media laziness and 'piling on' center on what I consider to be conspiracies such as this. When I was in University, even a casual investigation (and that was in the pre-internet world!) revealed hundreds of sources where MITI in Japan was guiding and propping up Japanese corporate raiding on North America. The information was easy to find and readily available. The fact that MSNBC throws out this quote from Jim Press so casually, without any real remark, shows how lazy the media is. This should be front page news, especially for the New York Times, which has often gone on the attack against Wagoner and GM. I wonder why the deafening silence?

What Japan Inc has done on these shores over the past 30 years is nothing short of an act of war, IMO. Washington/Ottawa is allied with out lazy media, manipulated by a culture that understands us far more than we bother to understand them, and the recipe is a wholesale hollowing out of our manufacturing/technological base over the past 30 years.

Coupling this with the scandalous cost over-runs and incompetent strategies in Iraq/Afghanistan (incidentally, being paid for with borrowed money by the same people who are hollowing out our manufacturing base!) and the resultant implosion of America's economy, the recipe is ripe for a 'correction' this contintent hasn't seen since 1929.

Torn from the pages of yesterday's National Post, Wall Street has handed out 34,000 pink slips to Wall Street fat cats already, with another 20,000 expected soon, and that doesn't include the Bear Stearns employees, who are expected to add another 7,000 job losses to those numbers. So, the highly vaunted shift from nuts and bolts to paper shuffling that has so enamored us for the past 20 years, glossed over the blue collar job losses and paved the way for a BMW and Mercedes invasion of your two coasts, is now coming to an end.

I have said this before and I will say it again: you cannot eat paper. If that is all America (and Canada) can produce, then we are mortgaging our future - literaly. None of this is recent news, it is just that while 'happy days' were here, nobody has cared to listen. Hell, Lee Iaccoca bitched about the free ride MITI and the Japanese government were giving Toyota and the gang back in the early '80s! But the WSJ and other learned media outlets would prefer to dismiss him than look into his allegations. :banghead:

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Y'know, my disagreements with Enzl over the media laziness and 'piling on' center on what I consider to be conspiracies such as this. When I was in University, even a casual investigation (and that was in the pre-internet world!) revealed hundreds of sources where MITI in Japan was guiding and propping up Japanese corporate raiding on North America. The information was easy to find and readily available. The fact that MSNBC throws out this quote from Jim Press so casually, without any real remark, shows how lazy the media is. This should be front page news, especially for the New York Times, which has often gone on the attack against Wagoner and GM. I wonder why the deafening silence?

What Japan Inc has done on these shores over the past 30 years is nothing short of an act of war, IMO. Washington/Ottawa is allied with out lazy media, manipulated by a culture that understands us far more than we bother to understand them, and the recipe is a wholesale hollowing out of our manufacturing/technological base over the past 30 years.

Coupling this with the scandalous cost over-runs and incompetent strategies in Iraq/Afghanistan (incidentally, being paid for with borrowed money by the same people who are hollowing out our manufacturing base!) and the resultant implosion of America's economy, the recipe is ripe for a 'correction' this contintent hasn't seen since 1929.

Torn from the pages of yesterday's National Post, Wall Street has handed out 34,000 pink slips to Wall Street fat cats already, with another 20,000 expected soon, and that doesn't include the Bear Stearns employees, who are expected to add another 7,000 job losses to those numbers. So, the highly vaunted shift from nuts and bolts to paper shuffling that has so enamored us for the past 20 years, glossed over the blue collar job losses and paved the way for a BMW and Mercedes invasion of your two coasts, is now coming to an end.

I have said this before and I will say it again: you cannot eat paper. If that is all America (and Canada) can produce, then we are mortgaging our future - literaly. None of this is recent news, it is just that while 'happy days' were here, nobody has cared to listen. Hell, Lee Iaccoca bitched about the free ride MITI and the Japanese government were giving Toyota and the gang back in the early '80s! But the WSJ and other learned media outlets would prefer to dismiss him than look into his allegations. :banghead:

To be fair--the US response to MITI behavior was Import Quotas....so Honda started production here...and now the transplants will outproduce the Big 2.8 in a few years--

Otherwise, the governmental incompetence cited is partially to blame-- there were a series of programs the US gov't sponsored to encourage the manufacturers (Ford, GM & Chrysler all produced concepts in conjunction with them.), then they went and built millions of SUV's and large trucks, so go figure.

While there is certainly plenty of blame to go around, the delayed 'globalization' of these 3 companies--and the product inadequacies--are the real problem. Blaming the media or wall street is simply letting them off the hook.These companies had weaknesses that they chose NOT to address---all of the other factors merely created the environment in which the 'sickness' is threatening the patient's life.

As far as the paper-pushing...well, that's been going on for 50+ years. Most of those 'fatcats' losing their jobs are middle-class individuals who work in a high cost city like NY and, depite possibly making 6 figures, are simply surviving economically.The others are their secretaries and support staff---otherwise, it's golden parachutes all around--just like the braintrust at GM!

Edited by enzl
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Y'know, my disagreements with Enzl over the media laziness and 'piling on' center on what I consider to be conspiracies such as this. When I was in University, even a casual investigation (and that was in the pre-internet world!) revealed hundreds of sources where MITI in Japan was guiding and propping up Japanese corporate raiding on North America. The information was easy to find and readily available. The fact that MSNBC throws out this quote from Jim Press so casually, without any real remark, shows how lazy the media is. This should be front page news, especially for the New York Times, which has often gone on the attack against Wagoner and GM. I wonder why the deafening silence?

What Japan Inc has done on these shores over the past 30 years is nothing short of an act of war, IMO. Washington/Ottawa is allied with out lazy media, manipulated by a culture that understands us far more than we bother to understand them, and the recipe is a wholesale hollowing out of our manufacturing/technological base over the past 30 years.

Coupling this with the scandalous cost over-runs and incompetent strategies in Iraq/Afghanistan (incidentally, being paid for with borrowed money by the same people who are hollowing out our manufacturing base!) and the resultant implosion of America's economy, the recipe is ripe for a 'correction' this contintent hasn't seen since 1929.

Torn from the pages of yesterday's National Post, Wall Street has handed out 34,000 pink slips to Wall Street fat cats already, with another 20,000 expected soon, and that doesn't include the Bear Stearns employees, who are expected to add another 7,000 job losses to those numbers. So, the highly vaunted shift from nuts and bolts to paper shuffling that has so enamored us for the past 20 years, glossed over the blue collar job losses and paved the way for a BMW and Mercedes invasion of your two coasts, is now coming to an end.

I have said this before and I will say it again: you cannot eat paper. If that is all America (and Canada) can produce, then we are mortgaging our future - literaly. None of this is recent news, it is just that while 'happy days' were here, nobody has cared to listen. Hell, Lee Iaccoca bitched about the free ride MITI and the Japanese government were giving Toyota and the gang back in the early '80s! But the WSJ and other learned media outlets would prefer to dismiss him than look into his allegations. :banghead:

:yes:

Spot on!

Just like everything else in this country, the new CAFE regs are designed to hinder Detroit and nothing more. And as usual, whether through fate or careful planning, Detroit will end up getting screwed.

Edited by FUTURE_OF_GM
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To be fair--the US response to MITI behavior was Import Quotas....so Honda started production here...and now the transplants will outproduce the Big 2.8 in a few years--

Otherwise, the governmental incompetence cited is partially to blame-- there were a series of programs the US gov't sponsored to encourage the manufacturers (Ford, GM & Chrysler all produced concepts in conjunction with them.), then they went and built millions of SUV's and large trucks, so go figure.

While there is certainly plenty of blame to go around, the delayed 'globalization' of these 3 companies--and the product inadequacies--are the real problem. Blaming the media or wall street is simply letting them off the hook.These companies had weaknesses that they chose NOT to address---all of the other factors merely created the environment in which the 'sickness' is threatening the patient's life.

As far as the paper-pushing...well, that's been going on for 50+ years. Most of those 'fatcats' losing their jobs are middle-class individuals who work in a high cost city like NY and, depite possibly making 6 figures, are simply surviving economically.The others are their secretaries and support staff---otherwise, it's golden parachutes all around--just like the braintrust at GM!

It's odd: we both want Detroit to recover but we seem to look at the problem from diametrically opposed poles. Of course Detroit is not faultless! But America's hubris and belief that everybody wants to be like you is finally coming home to roost. Detroit ignored Japan Inc. at its own peril. Washington continues to ignore Japan Inc. at its own peril (and China, for that matter.) When Japan starting dumping (and I use that term literally) its cheap electronics on our shores 50 years ago, nobody cared. The Pengaton only raised its head once when it realized Zenith was about to close up shop, wondering where the future aircraft would get their flatscreens from. When will Washington and the American media finally wake up to the fact that the farm has been sold off, the mortgage is held by someone who does not have your interests at heart, and your children are going to be virtual slaves in the coming decades?

Americans pride themselves on entrepreneurship and capitalism, assuming that it will always win the day. How often do the heads of Ford, Chrysler and GM ever get together? Never. How would that look? The WSJ would scream 'collusion' and 'conspiracy' from the rooftops. However, the heads of Mitsu, Nissan, Toyota and the gang practically lived together throughout the '80s when the assault on North America was being planned. Americans are big on laissez faire; Japan lives and dies by a controlled economy. China is following Japan's lead - and we are giving them our technology on a silver platter. Does Washington think China will be won over by Tupperware and McDonald'? Hell, you guys even finance the protection of Japan for the past 60 years, freeing up Japanese capital to undermine the American economy at every turn.

I don't know. Perhaps we deserve what is coming. Darwin must be spinning in his grave. Perhaps every civilization is destined to rise, become fat, lazy and stupid, then fall. History keeps repeating itself. I thought that maybe, just maybe, our civilization would be smart enough to see this one coming.

It isn't enough that Detroit has had to battle an indifferent Washington, jaded public, lazy media, a growing Japanese manufacturing collossus, but also the might of the Japanese government?

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Not surprising.

What is surprising is how much of a pass the media gives it. If the government stepped in and paid for even a portion of the R&D for the Volt, there's a good chance, I reckon, that we wouldn't hear the end of it.

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It's odd: we both want Detroit to recover but we seem to look at the problem from diametrically opposed poles. Of course Detroit is not faultless! But America's hubris and belief that everybody wants to be like you is finally coming home to roost. Detroit ignored Japan Inc. at its own peril. Washington continues to ignore Japan Inc. at its own peril (and China, for that matter.) When Japan starting dumping (and I use that term literally) its cheap electronics on our shores 50 years ago, nobody cared. The Pengaton only raised its head once when it realized Zenith was about to close up shop, wondering where the future aircraft would get their flatscreens from. When will Washington and the American media finally wake up to the fact that the farm has been sold off, the mortgage is held by someone who does not have your interests at heart, and your children are going to be virtual slaves in the coming decades?

Americans pride themselves on entrepreneurship and capitalism, assuming that it will always win the day. How often do the heads of Ford, Chrysler and GM ever get together? Never. How would that look? The WSJ would scream 'collusion' and 'conspiracy' from the rooftops. However, the heads of Mitsu, Nissan, Toyota and the gang practically lived together throughout the '80s when the assault on North America was being planned. Americans are big on laissez faire; Japan lives and dies by a controlled economy. China is following Japan's lead - and we are giving them our technology on a silver platter. Does Washington think China will be won over by Tupperware and McDonald'? Hell, you guys even finance the protection of Japan for the past 60 years, freeing up Japanese capital to undermine the American economy at every turn.

I don't know. Perhaps we deserve what is coming. Darwin must be spinning in his grave. Perhaps every civilization is destined to rise, become fat, lazy and stupid, then fall. History keeps repeating itself. I thought that maybe, just maybe, our civilization would be smart enough to see this one coming.

It isn't enough that Detroit has had to battle an indifferent Washington, jaded public, lazy media, a growing Japanese manufacturing collossus, but also the might of the Japanese government?

All that you say is hard to argue with...I just place alot more blame with the people running the Detroit 2.8.

They squandered (literally) a magnificent legacy. Everything else is just contributing factors.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I'm not sure that the proper lessons have been learned--and I don't believe the current leadership at GM is qualified to lift them out of the quagmire.

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What is surprising is how much of a pass the media gives it. If the government stepped in and paid for even a portion of the R&D for the Volt, there's a good chance, I reckon, that we wouldn't hear the end of it.

QFT

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"It's odd: we both want Detroit to recover but we seem to look at the problem from diametrically opposed poles. Of course Detroit is not faultless!"

These arguments become so protracted that the real issue is often missed. Who's fault is it ultimately that the Japanese do so well in America? Well, the American car-buying public, that's who. If Toyota, Honda et al had no appeal whatsoever, their cars simply wouldn't sell. If they really cared about the woes of the US auto industry and acted upon those concerns, their cars wouldn't sell either.

To be fair, the average American consumer treats a car like a washing machine. They want it to operate reliably. They want it to look smart enough, but don't want anything particularly avantgarde. Most crucially, they want as many features as possible for as little moolah as they can conceivably get away with.

To that end, US companies are having a tougher time, particularly as Americans are increasingly veering towards smaller, more economical machines which generally yield less unit profit for manufacturers. American companies, faced with crippling costs dictated by union contracts and privatised health care, are faced with fewer choices in order to offer viable competition to the Japanese and Koreans: use cheaper materials and fewer standard features but build in the States (making the product less competitive), use cheaper labour (maintaining competitiveness but building in Mexico), hiking the price to compensate (a gun to the head move) or pulling out of the market segment altogether (a death wish). US companies have found some repreive by using foreign models from subsidiaries (eg Aveo, Astra, Focus) in recent years, but since the development and build of each is almost always outside of the US, that does little to help the industry either.

I think if the Volt goes into production in 2010 as indicated, we could see a credible turning point with this vehicle. But the truth is that the Japanese have had the small family car hybrid market to themselves for a decade now, and while other manufacturers fumble around in the US market, they've had the ride of the range.

These arguments, blaming Toyota and Honda for the US industry's woes, are very tiresome. The Big 3 have had their heads in the sand over many issues for a very long time. If you don't tackle the real issue head on, you'll still be blaming others and arguing in circles in a decade's time.

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These arguments, blaming Toyota and Honda for the US industry's woes, are very tiresome. The Big 3 have had their heads in the sand over many issues for a very long time. If you don't tackle the real issue head on, you'll still be blaming others and arguing in circles in a decade's time.

Oh come on, we all know Toyota is to blame. :AH-HA_wink:

Honda, on the other hand, is quite an anomaly. Despite being opposed by the Japanese government from the start, and competing against government-backed Toyota since day one in their home market, they have still grown to where they are today; a step ahead of Toyota in technology and the world's largest engine maker with high profit margins. I don't like it when people lump Toyota and Honda together for this very reason, they are two entirely different animals.

But I do agree that it is GM's past choices that are haunting them now, and until they reduce their overhead they will be unable to compete in the small car market. I am confident that GM will get there, perhaps soon. The first step of course will be to stop selling German/Korean/Japanese rebadges, har har. :AH-HA_wink:

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Oh come on, we all know Toyota is to blame. :AH-HA_wink:

Honda, on the other hand, is quite an anomaly. Despite being opposed by the Japanese government from the start, and competing against government-backed Toyota since day one in their home market, they have still grown to where they are today; a step ahead of Toyota in technology and the world's largest engine maker with high profit margins. I don't like it when people lump Toyota and Honda together for this very reason, they are two entirely different animals.

But I do agree that it is GM's past choices that are haunting them now, and until they reduce their overhead they will be unable to compete in the small car market. I am confident that GM will get there, perhaps soon. The first step of course will be to stop selling German/Korean/Japanese rebadges, har har. :AH-HA_wink:

Then you'll still be blaming Toyota in ten years' time. The truth is they've capitalised on the American market in particular for donkey's years now and the US automotive industry has basically let that happen, whether the issue be one of brand perception, or discounting, or even where US manufacturing facilities are located. Toyota have an ability to appeal to a large swathe of American consumers - if they didn't, then the domestic product wouldn't have anything to worry about.

So how do you propose that GM drastically reduce its overhead expenditure and build small cars in the United States? Become non-unionised? Offer little or no benefits-in-kind? Use poorer quality materials? Keep model specs to a minimum? Simply reduce labour rates? Alternatively, do you think they can change the American consumers' perception that small has to equate to cheap? Now there's the burgeoning issue.

Honda and Toyota are distinctly different companies - but both build increasingly in the United States, and both are out to gain as much of the US market as possible.

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I thought Porsche had the highest profit margins?

No when it comes to engines, Honda engines are high profit margin components. Porsche is the high profit margin automobile manufacturer.

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one thing that bothers me is Press benefited from this while at Toyota....now, he is on other team, and for him to say this, even if true, is very convenient, because it would theoretically help Chrysler, who he works for now. Then, either Chrysler gets sold and Press profits from that or he takes over Chrysler and profits from it that way.

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i still fickung hate toyota though, regardless.

want a laugh? read C/D review of the corolla XRS......LOL

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Then you'll still be blaming Toyota in ten years' time. The truth is they've capitalised on the American market in particular for donkey's years now and the US automotive industry has basically let that happen, whether the issue be one of brand perception, or discounting, or even where US manufacturing facilities are located. Toyota have an ability to appeal to a large swathe of American consumers - if they didn't, then the domestic product wouldn't have anything to worry about.

There is difference between trouncing a competition in a fair game vs. punching out the competition with jury on their side and opponents' hands tied. How can someone say that Toyota and Japan are playing it fare? When,

a) Japan does not have market open for foreigners like we do.

b) Getting under table support for their agendas and researches.

c) Copying technology and other components as much as they can.

I agree with siegen that Honda and Toy should not be lumped in the same banner. If Toy was technology genious then they should have slaughtered their competition away in F1 races, the last I know they are yet to finish first after 107 races. Honda's technology is good. The Hondajet is pinnacle of how they have utilized their tech resources. Toy's strong point is production, marketing and that is it. That is what drives the market.

No one here denies the fact that Detroit lost it in 80's because of many reasons. But that is only one side of the coin. No person who is familiar with this topic can deny that Toyota has got a free pass with their acts in this country.

So how do you propose that GM drastically reduce its overhead expenditure and build small cars in the United States? Become non-unionised? Offer little or no benefits-in-kind? Use poorer quality materials? Keep model specs to a minimum? Simply reduce labour rates? Alternatively, do you think they can change the American consumers' perception that small has to equate to cheap? Now there's the burgeoning issue.
That is where the 2007 Union deal came into picture. And like some others have posted, the overheads can be reduced if government supports their healthcare and takes some of its responsibilities. GM will not have to spend $51 billion to create VEBA if Washington can call for a government funded health care system. That money can be used wisely for other developments. If you look at the Cobalt, at that price it is almost as loaded to a more expensive Civic or Corolla if not more.

Small equates to cheap is not only for GM cars. It is in general a perception for all the small cars being sold here. That is part of the reason why Audi A3 has not been a stellar success here. Other than few soft spot vehicles like Golf (nee Rabbit), we will not see any time soon whole hearted acceptance to smaller vehicles that are loaded, and priced $3-4 G lower than their bigger siblings.

Honda and Toyota are distinctly different companies - but both build increasingly in the United States, and both are out to gain as much of the US market as possible.

That is capitalism, if Tata come tomorrow to compete, it will target US market the same way.

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a) Japan does not have market open for foreigners like we do.

b

Really? Everyone from Rover to Opel, Cadillac to Ford sells cars in Japan. Lincoln sell there and don't even bother converting their products to RHD.

Given that Japan is an extraordinarily urbanised country, pay substationally more than the US does for fuel, and that the Japanese are taxed on vehicle ownership above the kei-class (and punitively on cars larger than D-segment), how many American cars would be attractive to the average Japanese person?

I'm thinking Dodge Caliber CRD - which is in fact sold there. Dodge happens to offer the Avenger, Nitro and even the Charger there too, the last two of which will have limited appeal.

And I can't think of anything else whatsoever from the USA which would fit the bil given these circumstances.

The difference between America and Japan is simple: the Japanese gear their cars towards the market preferences of the countries it sells in. The Americans take their preferences in cars and hope that other countries will simply accept them.

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"Small equates to cheap is not only for GM cars. It is in general a perception for all the small cars being sold here."

No doubt. But Americans buy Corollas and Civics in droves.

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Really? Everyone from Rover to Opel, Cadillac to Ford sells cars in Japan. Lincoln sell there and don't even bother converting their products to RHD.

Yes they do. But not without "taxes" unlike here where there are no taxes levied for import vehicles. Neither can a foreign company buy majority stakes into a company incorporated in Japan, and nor can a foreign company build a plant in Japan for manufacturing. In broader sense yes they are open to market but with those caveats.

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