InvictaMan

Buick Delta 2 Lurking Under There?

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If there is a Buick Delta II, it should not share anything with the Cruze if it wants to be considered "premium."

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If there is a Buick Delta II, it should not share anything with the Cruze if it wants to be considered "premium."

I disagree I think it should share the 1.4 GDI Turbo engine as its base w/ the 2.0 GDI Turbo as the top end engine.

In fact I said the Cruze should have gone to Buick and let the Cobalt continue on for Chevry a while ago. It is just the small premium car that Buick needs in the world of high gas prices and small premium luxury cars.

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I disagree I think it should share the 1.4 GDI Turbo engine as its base w/ the 2.0 GDI Turbo as the top end engine.

In fact I said the Cruze should have gone to Buick and let the Cobalt continue on for Chevry a while ago. It is just the small premium car that Buick needs in the world of high gas prices and small premium luxury cars.

+1

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Link To leftlane Image

The interesting faux extension at the D pillar, leaving one to question, "Just how much can you do to make this car a Buick under the belt line?"

Well, change the side crease to be like that of the Invicta concept/ '10 LaCrosse, add a Buick grille... voila--Skylark.

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I disagree I think it should share the 1.4 GDI Turbo engine as its base w/ the 2.0 GDI Turbo as the top end engine.

In fact I said the Cruze should have gone to Buick and let the Cobalt continue on for Chevry a while ago. It is just the small premium car that Buick needs in the world of high gas prices and small premium luxury cars.

I meant exterior, not engines. I agree it can share engines with the Cruze.

The Cobalt badly needs replacement. It's well outclassed by now, with almost every competitor having a newer model out... a Buick Delta II should be the 3rd small or possibly 4th small car priority behind Chevy, Saturn, and maybe Pontiac.

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Funny about the opinions of the Cruze=Buick...

I'm finding it hard to like personally. This Cruze is not a bad car. I'm sure it'll sell better than any compact GM car before it. It's bigger than the Cobalt and the interior appears to be stylish and high quality... great achievements... It's obviously engineered and designed to appeal directly to Civic & Corolla buyers...

The problem is the Cruze doesn't begin to compare to a spec'd out Jetta or S40... let alone the new TSX or A4 1.8t...

The Cruze sets the bottom line for Delta II (a very well accomplished bottom line.)

The Buick Compact should be as comfortable, luxurious, and upscale as a FWD GM compact can get (Cadillac will not have one).

SAAB’s 9-3 can be more about premium sport/performance with styling and luxury only Trollhattan can deliver.

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I think the Cruze could compare to a Jetta, after all it's nothing more than a Mexican Golf sedan with twist-beam and a high price tag. The S40 is IRS though and more expensive, the TSX and A4 midsize not compact, comparable more to the Epsilon 9-3.

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I disagree I think it should share the 1.4 GDI Turbo engine as its base w/ the 2.0 GDI Turbo as the top end engine.

In fact I said the Cruze should have gone to Buick and let the Cobalt continue on for Chevry a while ago. It is just the small premium car that Buick needs in the world of high gas prices and small premium luxury cars.

I agree and I've been saying that since like 2004 lol...but it should have no exterior styling/design shared with Cruze. And its going to be the same old thing but better...that is, no matter how premium Chevy wanted people to think it was a 'premium compact', it was nothing more than a Cavalier replacement all along-an affordable, mainstream, if not all that great compact car, with some performance hints, and a vast shortage of passenger room. Nothing more.

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I think the Cruze could compare to a Jetta, after all it's nothing more than a Mexican Golf sedan with twist-beam and a high price tag. The S40 is IRS though and more expensive, the TSX and A4 midsize not compact, comparable more to the Epsilon 9-3.

Well... I'm thinking along the lines of the premium 4-cyl FWD market. There aren't many left but it seems to be destined to grow considering the conditions. Regardless if Buick's 4-cyl compact isn't the largest in the segment, it still needs to be able to compete in style, features, and sophistication.

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I'd be very interested in a Buick version of the Cruze. Give it heated leather seats, auto climate control, auto dimming heated mirrors, rainsense, a quiet, smooth, yet sporty ride, xenons, and done, winner.

EDIT: and let's not forget, Nav and a hard disc.

Edited by Paolino
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I'd be very interested in a Buick version of the Cruze. Give it heated leather seats, auto climate control, auto dimming heated mirrors, rainsense, a quiet, smooth, yet sporty ride, xenons, and done, winner.

EDIT: and let's not forget, Nav and a hard disc.

Would you buy a Buick with said features but not the Cruze itself or NG Astra with said features?

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I know you were talking to Paolino... be me personally, no. I just don't care for the look of the Cruze. It's not ugly at all. I'm just not fond of it.

Plus, take into account: GM can charge more for Buick & SAAB branded Delta IIs... profitability is more important than ever. Chevrolet & Saturn branded vehicles compete more on price. GM needs premium compacts that won't require discounts to sell.

Plus, if anything needs standard Quiet Tuning, a compact does... :)

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I know you were talking to Paolino... be me personally, no. I just don't care for the look of the Cruze. It's not ugly at all. I'm just not fond of it.

Plus, take into account: GM can charge more for Buick & SAAB branded Delta IIs... profitability is more important than ever. Chevrolet & Saturn branded vehicles compete more on price. GM needs premium compacts that won't require discounts to sell.

Plus, if anything needs standard Quiet Tuning, a compact does... :)

I just don't know if Buick should be competing in that price range, however. I feel like the LaCrosse should start around $30k, the TSX is at $29k and the S40 is $24k base. I'm not sure Buick can demand more than about $27k for a fully loaded compact, so probably around $19-20k base... I just don't think they can make a car that is a legitimate competitor to the TSX and S40 for $4+k less.

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I understand and appreciate that Delta II is supposed to be one heck of a great platform, but I still think Buick's compact sedan should be developed on the SWB Epsilon II platform. The Insignia is on this version of the Epsilon II platform (and possibly the next Saab 9-5), so it's not like GM is developing an exclusive version of Epsilon II just for a Buick vehicle. To me, this would make the Buick compact a little more exclusive and a cut above the other FWD compacts offered by GM (which it should be given Buick's status).

If they give the division a "Buickized" version of the Cruze, I will wash my hands of GM. If the company embraces the brand engineered mediocrity of their past, then they deserve to go under. If GM does give Buick a Delta II based sedan (which I'm not entirely against, but I still prefer the suggested scenario above), it had better have its own unique exterior/interior design and appropriate premium features to justify its place in Buick's lineup.

Edited by cire
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I just don't know if Buick should be competing in that price range, however. I feel like the LaCrosse should start around $30k, the TSX is at $29k and the S40 is $24k base. I'm not sure Buick can demand more than about $27k for a fully loaded compact, so probably around $19-20k base... I just don't think they can make a car that is a legitimate competitor to the TSX and S40 for $4+k less.

Most of the compact's positioning depends on the price of the 2010 LaCrosse replacement. A $23k-$28k Buick Compact could work if the LaCrosse Replacement starts around $27k-$30k.

Remember the Cruze will start around $15k when it debuts in the US. The Astra will probably be similar, if not just a few k more (maybe $17k-$18k) There's plenty of room for a premium compact Buick firmly in the $23k-$28k range. A $7k-$8k increase in base price over the Cruze would allow Buick to offer a competitive premium compact. Selling a compact at the price of a current mid-large w-body LaCrosse would be a major improvement.

As for internal competition... Buicks and SAABs will not be cross shopped and their styling will be polar opposites.

I'd actually want Buick to offer one well equipped Buick compact (like just offering the available top-level Delta II engine, unless a hybrid form was available) with a limited price range... similar to Honda & Acura's strategy.

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I understand and appreciate that Delta II is supposed to be one heck of a great platform, but I still think Buick's compact sedan should be developed on the SWB Epsilon II platform. The Insignia is on this version of the Epsilon II platform (and possibly the next Saab 9-5), so it's not like GM is developing an exclusive version of Epsilon II just for a Buick vehicle. To me, this would make the Buick compact a little more exclusive and a cut above the other FWD compacts offered by GM (which it should be given Buick's status).

If they give the division a "Buickized" version of the Cruze, I will wash my hands of GM. If the company embraces the brand engineered mediocrity of their past, then they deserve to go under. If GM does give Buick a Delta II based sedan (which I'm not entirely against, but I still prefer the suggested scenario above), it had better have its own unique exterior/interior design and appropriate premium features to justify its place in Buick's lineup.

Buick is getting the Insignia in China as the Regal... It very possible that's the reason Saturn's Aura has been delayed for restyling. The Insignia may be coming to the US as a Epsilon II SWB Buick Regal slotted between the Delta-II Buick and the Epsilon II LWB LaCrosse replacement.

Buick's line-up is suppose to mimic China's... this seems to make the most sense considering what we know about the Aura delay/remodel.

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I still don't think Buick has the brand image to demand that much money for a compact car, but I could be wrong...

A SWB EPII would be bigger and thus would probably be able to command such a price more easily.

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The Pontiac Delta II should compete with high-end Jettas and low-end TSXs, depending on trim level. Buick should stay "soft luxury", imo, competing with ES350 and the like.
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NS... my guess is as good as yours... GM isn't clear on Saturn or Buick's direction at the moment. They've made recent decisions that directly contradict "official" plans for both brands. As far as we know, Saturn could be phased out with Insignia and all future Opels & Daewoos ending up as Chevrolets. Who knows at the moment? Saturn is struggling to sell vehicles in the high $20k to $30k+. Their volume isn't that great for a brand competing with mainstream brands.

Last that was mentioned, It was under consideration to merge Buick-Cadillac-SAAB into one dealer franchise and Chevrolet left free-standing...

Are we looking at the phase out of Pontiac, GMC, & Saturn now?

If China's market becomes unstable, Buick would be sold to a Chinese company in a heartbeat and phased out in the US... no question.

Nothing appears to be for certain at the moment...

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I agree that the Cobalt needs to be replaced. Now. The Cruze looks to be a good player in the compact segment against the Civic, but time will have to tell on that one. Potential is definitely there--let's see if GM can design a compact that has the longevity of its rivals. Buick should not consider anything in this price range; it can share mechanicals maybe, but it needs different sheetmetal, interior, and much more QuietTuning (where did that go btw?) and should start at a higher price to reflect its higher-qualityness.

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The Pontiac Delta II should compete with high-end Jettas and low-end TSXs, depending on trim level. Buick should stay "soft luxury", imo, competing with ES350 and the like.

This should be Pontiac's compact car:

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A RWD Alpha based 3-door/5-door compact (I know that the concept is only a 5-door, but this design could easily be morphed into a 3-door body style too). This car wouldn't have any competition in the market because there wouldn't be anything else like it out there (there aren't any affordable RWD compact cars in the U.S. market that I can think of). Just install the 2.0 liter turbocharged 4-cylinder from the Solstice GXP in this baby as the base engine and it would be ready to go (and quickly fly out of showrooms).

That's the fantasy. The sad reality is that the Pontiac version will probably end up being a Cruze with a twin-nostrilized grille, if GM bothers with giving Pontiac a version at all. GM might be content to let Pontiac carry on with just the Vibe and the rebadged Chevy Cobalt clone G5 and call it a day. If Pontiac is really, really lucky, it might eventually end up with the current Aveo cloned G3/Wave when the Aveo replacement arrives at Chevrolet dealers. It's good to be Pontiac, isn't it?

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Would you buy a Buick with said features but not the Cruze itself or NG Astra with said features?

Absolutely I'd consider the Cruze if it had those features... however, I'm thinking since I'm such a Buick lover, if it had a Buick twist, a nice waterfall grille, mini sweepspear, proud Buick insignia... well, I'd love to cruise around in that. I'd also assume the Buick would receive a quieter, more plush ride.

EDIT: Not the Astra though--I like sedans and an occasional coupe. Not into hatches, wagons, SUVs, CUVs, etc.

Edited by Paolino
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Absolutely I'd consider the Cruze if it had those features... however, I'm thinking since I'm such a Buick lover, if it had a Buick twist, a nice waterfall grille, mini sweepspear, proud Buick insignia... well, I'd love to cruise around in that. I'd also assume the Buick would receive a quieter, more plush ride.

EDIT: Not the Astra though--I like sedans and an occasional coupe. Not into hatches, wagons, SUVs, CUVs, etc.

Hatches are great for tailgate parties! :AH-HA_wink:

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Buick is getting the Insignia in China as the Regal... It very possible that's the reason Saturn's Aura has been delayed for restyling. The Insignia may be coming to the US as a Epsilon II SWB Buick Regal slotted between the Delta-II Buick and the Epsilon II LWB LaCrosse replacement.

Buick's line-up is suppose to mimic China's... this seems to make the most sense considering what we know about the Aura delay/remodel.

I love the Insignia and I think it should be sold in the U.S. and China, but not as a Buick. Even if they put a waterfall grille on this car, it still won't look like a Buick. To me, they would have to do much more to this car than change the grille and badging before it will look like a Buick. I would rather see Buick receive a SWB Epsilon II compact sedan that was created exclusively for Buick, not rebadged from another global brand's lineup. I don't quite understand why this car is not for sale worldwide as the Opel Insignia. Opel is in China, why not sell this car (which has an obvious next gen Opel styling language) as an Opel? I just don't get it. GM seems content to continue to dilute the images of their brands by giving them rebadges instead of vehicles with their own distinct brand appropriate designs.

I also don't understand wasting money to alter, decontent, and/or restyle the car to sell as a Saturn in the U.S. GM needs to face the fact that Saturn will never be perceived as a premium brand. Why continue to support and market a brand that essentially provides in-house competition for Chevrolet in the affordable portion of the market? Saturn appeals to those who already are considering a GM branded vehicle. Giving diluted Opels to the brand seems like a waste of money and resources. The money would be better spent launching Opel in Saturn's place. If they would combine Opel with Saab in an import focused dealer network and market this network properly (focus on both brand's Euro origins and downplay GM's connection and involvement with the brands), then the corporation might have a couple of brands that would attract and appeal to buyers who prefer import brands (and give the corporation a better chance of increasing market share, instead of cannibalizing and competing with itself).

Edited by cire
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