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Camino LS6

If GM decides to kill/emasculate Pontiac...

153 posts in this topic

...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

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If GM decides to discontinue Pontiac as a brand name, I'll be unaffected. Just like when Sony discontinued the Aiwa, I can get the same damned thing under a different name.

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...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

Between the lack of any great Buick cars, Cadillac's compete idiocy

regarding many things FWD, b-pillar, DTS & Sixteen related, coupled

with the death of brand that is VERY close to my heart, I'd be 100

percent with you 'Camino!

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lest I forget the dropping of the ball on RWD (Zeta) for over a decade, and now

we have but one, under the banner that is in jeopardy no less..

Satty:

Your comment is ignorant & you know better.... if Pontiac lived up to its

potential & intent as a brand it would eclipse Chevrolet & Buick like a

doomsday asteroid.

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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

The potential? Much bigger than that of Saturn.

The rest of your post is just sweeping generalizations with an urban bias.

You don't think a Pontiac "Mini" would sell?

Or a Pontiac "3 series"?

Or an e-flex sportscar?

Performance can come in many forms, but at GM, it should come from Pontiac.

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Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast. :rolleyes:

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem. <_<

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

Edited by Sixty8panther
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Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast. :rolleyes:

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem. <_<

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

It is the same sort of "failure mentality" that created Saturn in the first place.

If followed, the results will be the same.

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Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

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Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

:lol:

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

And there must be a Pontiac, a Chevy, a Saturn, etc. or GM is doomed.

It's define the brands or die.

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Slowly folding Saturn into Buick might make sense, but pitting Saturn against Pontiac is pointless.

They are like apples and oranges and should be even moreso in the future. Going generic FWD with Pontiac is pure foolishness.

Killing the brand is equally foolish.

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For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

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I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

The sad part is that, in the end, it will be remembered as what GM did to itself.

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I felt the same with the death of Oldsmobile, and I'll never forgive them for it.... but the first gen CTS was a nice consolation prize.

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Except for me there is no sign of a consolation prize.

F%$# no.

Not this time... if GM really does ''euthanize" Pontiac

(just the though makes me sick ot my stomach)

then the consolation prize will be some Daewoo POS

rebadged as a chevy.

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

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It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

Again way off, check the difference in market share between Pontiac and Saturn. And as for efficiency, it need not be boring (or tiny). Cars already on the market prove that. An all small FWD lineup at Pontiac would be entirely redundant within the GM universe - something I thought we all agreed needed to be avoided. Isn't Pontiac GM's strongest selling brand in Canada?

As for me - no tiny cars ever, no matter the cost of fuel.

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Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

An apt comparison.

After all, wasn't the Wizard of Oz eventually exposed as a fraud and a fool? :AH-HA_wink:

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I think GM is wasting an opportunity with Pontiac -- I think they could easily build the brand around a single RWD 3-series sized car with coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon variants -- applying 4 and 6 cylinder power plants and manual and automatic transmissions across the line. Optional AWD as well with both transmission choices. Seeking out new, profitable niches would appear to me to be a better strategy than trying to drive incremental volume on cars that are clones of existing models with no differentiation. Figure out what people are willing to PAY a PREMIUM for and build it. A small FWD "pocket rocket" in the vein of the GTI or Mini Cooper could also be slotted in below this RWD line-up with the G8 and G8 ST above it. Simple.

Given the current economic climate, Cadillac's ascent upmarket may be ill timed.

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A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

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