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If GM decides to kill/emasculate Pontiac...

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...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

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If GM decides to discontinue Pontiac as a brand name, I'll be unaffected. Just like when Sony discontinued the Aiwa, I can get the same damned thing under a different name.

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...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

Between the lack of any great Buick cars, Cadillac's compete idiocy

regarding many things FWD, b-pillar, DTS & Sixteen related, coupled

with the death of brand that is VERY close to my heart, I'd be 100

percent with you 'Camino!

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lest I forget the dropping of the ball on RWD (Zeta) for over a decade, and now

we have but one, under the banner that is in jeopardy no less..

Satty:

Your comment is ignorant & you know better.... if Pontiac lived up to its

potential & intent as a brand it would eclipse Chevrolet & Buick like a

doomsday asteroid.

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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

The potential? Much bigger than that of Saturn.

The rest of your post is just sweeping generalizations with an urban bias.

You don't think a Pontiac "Mini" would sell?

Or a Pontiac "3 series"?

Or an e-flex sportscar?

Performance can come in many forms, but at GM, it should come from Pontiac.

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Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast. :rolleyes:

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem. <_<

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

Edited by Sixty8panther

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Wow Satty... spoken like a true enthusiast. :rolleyes:

In 2002 GM killed off the F-body and insisted that "there is no more market for sporty 2-door cars"

And your tirade sounds about as accurate. You probably used the words "NEVER" and "CAMARO"

in the same sentence back then too.

I'm so sick of this "sky is falling" mentality towards anything without a 'hybrid' emblem. <_<

Nothing is more of a drag than a can't do attitude.

It is the same sort of "failure mentality" that created Saturn in the first place.

If followed, the results will be the same.

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Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

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Camino, you don;t get it.... performance does not sell with a small dealer network.

That is why BMW, Porsche and Audi all have dealer networks larger than GM's and

Ford's combined.

Any Chrysler executive will tell you more dealerships = more profits.

:lol:

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

And there must be a Pontiac, a Chevy, a Saturn, etc. or GM is doomed.

It's define the brands or die.

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Slowly folding Saturn into Buick might make sense, but pitting Saturn against Pontiac is pointless.

They are like apples and oranges and should be even moreso in the future. Going generic FWD with Pontiac is pure foolishness.

Killing the brand is equally foolish.

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For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

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I'm in the same boat, in my lifetime you will never catch me shopping for a Saturn, Buick, Saab, or GMC. Chevrolet is unlikey too with the exception of the Camaro and possibly Corvette; Cadillac will be out of my price range in the short run. So once the G8 departs and the (additional) rebadges keep coming GM will be out of the running. I can't help but feel negatively towards GM for what they have done (and not done) to Pontiac, which drives me to buy non-GM in spite.

The sad part is that, in the end, it will be remembered as what GM did to itself.

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I felt the same with the death of Oldsmobile, and I'll never forgive them for it.... but the first gen CTS was a nice consolation prize.

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Except for me there is no sign of a consolation prize.

F%$# no.

Not this time... if GM really does ''euthanize" Pontiac

(just the though makes me sick ot my stomach)

then the consolation prize will be some Daewoo POS

rebadged as a chevy.

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A MINI-competitor can come from any brand. Same with an Alpha 3er competitor. Thats my point, there is no Pontiac. There is no Chevy. There is no Saturn. They're all GMs wearing different clothes.

Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S

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What is Pontiac's potential? Their dealer network is smaller than Chevy, so the brand is not going to pass the Big Dog in sales. In a world with stop lights every quarter mile and poorly maintained highways, people will put comfort over performance. With gas prices fluctuating and the dollar losing value, people will take efficiency into account when car shopping. The market isn't there for the Pontiac that people on C&G think we should have. And I haven't even mentioned insurance rates. Performance cars aren't going to sell the way they did back in the day, you're never going to see a million Mustangs sold in 18 months again. You're probably going to see a million Camrys or Malibus sold in that time frame someday. Pontiac's best chance to survive is to just be a hanger-oner. If Buick and GMC are strong, Pontiac can hang around and take up a corner of the showroom with models like the Solstice (very limited market) and G8 (limited importation capacity) that can fill the "excitement" niche.

It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

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It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

Again way off, check the difference in market share between Pontiac and Saturn. And as for efficiency, it need not be boring (or tiny). Cars already on the market prove that. An all small FWD lineup at Pontiac would be entirely redundant within the GM universe - something I thought we all agreed needed to be avoided. Isn't Pontiac GM's strongest selling brand in Canada?

As for me - no tiny cars ever, no matter the cost of fuel.

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Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

An apt comparison.

After all, wasn't the Wizard of Oz eventually exposed as a fraud and a fool? :AH-HA_wink:

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I think GM is wasting an opportunity with Pontiac -- I think they could easily build the brand around a single RWD 3-series sized car with coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon variants -- applying 4 and 6 cylinder power plants and manual and automatic transmissions across the line. Optional AWD as well with both transmission choices. Seeking out new, profitable niches would appear to me to be a better strategy than trying to drive incremental volume on cars that are clones of existing models with no differentiation. Figure out what people are willing to PAY a PREMIUM for and build it. A small FWD "pocket rocket" in the vein of the GTI or Mini Cooper could also be slotted in below this RWD line-up with the G8 and G8 ST above it. Simple.

Given the current economic climate, Cadillac's ascent upmarket may be ill timed.

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A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

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I think GM is wasting an opportunity with Pontiac -- I think they could easily build the brand around a single RWD 3-series sized car with coupe, convertible, sedan and wagon variants -- applying 4 and 6 cylinder power plants and manual and automatic transmissions across the line. Optional AWD as well with both transmission choices. Seeking out new, profitable niches would appear to me to be a better strategy than trying to drive incremental volume on cars that are clones of existing models with no differentiation. Figure out what people are willing to PAY a PREMIUM for and build it. A small FWD "pocket rocket" in the vein of the GTI or Mini Cooper could also be slotted in below this RWD line-up with the G8 and G8 ST above it. Simple.

Given the current economic climate, Cadillac's ascent upmarket may be ill timed.

Exactly!

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A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

So let Caddy have a bling version here and in Europe, with a Buick version in China.

Problem solved.

EDIT: and a Torana for Holden, a Vauxhall for the Brits, and a Chevy for the Middle East.

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An apt comparison.

After all, wasn't the Wizard of Oz eventually exposed as a fraud and a fool? :AH-HA_wink:

Ahh, but it was the man behind the curtain who actually showed Dorothy how to get back home to what really mattered. He put her back on track as it were. Remember Camino, click your heels 3 times and repeat, "There is no place like home, There is no place Like home, There is no place like home.". :smilewide:

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Ahh, but it was the man behind the curtain who actually showed Dorothy how to get back home to what really mattered. He put her back on track as it were. Remember Camino, click your heels 3 times and repeat, "There is no place like home, There is no place Like home, There is no place like home.". :smilewide:

BFD, he helped a little girl (guilt?)

I can find my own way home.

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It was the losers and idiots at GM (E) that LOST their way, not us the consumers.

1977 --- GM downsized the B-bodies --- market share fell

1980s --- GM started pumping out FWD econo-boxes like hotcakes --- market share fell

1988 --- GM KILLED midsize RWD by replacing the G-bodies with the Wrong wheel Drive Ws --- market share fell

1996 --- GM KILLED mainstream RWD by killing the B-bodies --- market share fell

notice a pattern?

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I have some words for the proposed all FWD, all small sedan idea for Pontiac's future:

Redundancy

Sabotage

Incompetence

Malpractice

Myopia

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I've said it before, these things are cyclical.

Right now it's 1974 again... and gm is putting all of its eggs in the VEGA basket. <_<

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So let Caddy have a bling version here and in Europe, with a Buick version in China.

Problem solved.

EDIT: and a Torana for Holden, a Vauxhall for the Brits, and a Chevy for the Middle East.

Or, consolidate things and call it a Buick or Caddy worldwide.

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I've said it before, these things are cyclical.

Right now it's 1974 again... and gm is putting all of its eggs in the VEGA basket. <_<

Again.

BTW: The Vega was around before '74, but I get your meaning.

Makes me think of the awful X-cars more than the Vega anyway.

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Or, consolidate things and call it a Buick or Caddy worldwide.

With what gain?

Offending your customers on several continents and maximizing overlap?

Buick is way too close to Caddy for that to make any sense at all.

The way I laid it out, it is a world product with no overlap.

Care to place a bet on which plan makes more profit?

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I don't care if Pontiac gets killed, they are mostly making rental cars now anyway. They probably should kill the brand or make them rental car only with 3 models. I'd rather see them make better Cadillacs and Chevrolets than to keep wasting dollars on G3's and G5's no matter how incremental the cost to do it.

Cadillac has to go up market to where they should have been all along, GM needs Cadillac as a symbol of greatness for American cars. Many people have an image/perception that American cars are unreliable junk made of plastic that have poor handling. Cadillac needs to get to Mercedes level pricing and restore the lost image of American cars. Cadillac is the last brand that can do it, Chrysler can't, Lincoln can't, it's Cadillac or nothing.

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Another thing that annoys me about all of this is the criticism of Pontiac as a NorthAmerican-only brand.

I'd market that as a strength, not a weakness!

I like the idea of a GM brand that is exclusive to the market I live in.

It is a serious potential appeal that GM has been ignoring.

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I don't care if Pontiac gets killed, they are mostly making rental cars now anyway. They probably should kill the brand or make them rental car only with 3 models. I'd rather see them make better Cadillacs and Chevrolets than to keep wasting dollars on G3's and G5's no matter how incremental the cost to do it.

Cadillac has to go up market to where they should have been all along, GM needs Cadillac as a symbol of greatness for American cars. Many people have an image/perception that American cars are unreliable junk made of plastic that have poor handling. Cadillac needs to get to Mercedes level pricing and restore the lost image of American cars. Cadillac is the last brand that can do it, Chrysler can't, Lincoln can't, it's Cadillac or nothing.

There's that failure mentality again. :rolleyes:

The surrender monkey syndrome at work.

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It was the losers and idiots at GM (E) that LOST their way, not us the consumers.

1977 --- GM downsized the B-bodies --- market share fell

The downsized 1977 B bodies were a smash hit.

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Ah, another death post.

What you guys fail to see is that maybe-a few years ago this all would have mattered.

The game now has completely changed-not with just GM, but other automakers as well.

Cars in the near future will be no where near what you see now.

As a whole, less people are going to care how fast their car goes, as long as it is affordable and gets you from point A to B.

Some people will still want that choice, but are going to pay quite a premuim for that.....

GM can see that big picture, and most of you do not.

You only have to see how fast the "ricer" trend is fading to see that there are less car lovers out there everyday.

More people every day worry about keeping their house, and less on what they are driving.......

I think Pontiac will still be here, but expect some bumpy times ahead..........

New Tech is more important than fast cars...for now.

*grabs flame suit* :convertible:

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This sort of one-size-fits-all, blandness in product planning is doomed.

Well, than I 'm not sure what to tell ya......

And this gloom is going to be everywhere, not just at GM...

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Bull&#036;h&#33;.

What part of "we are going to be in a period of change" are you missing, Camino? :confused0071:

When all this new Tech "bull&#036;h&#33;" gets affordable, then I can see fun and faster cars coming back...

Like it or not, it's going to be a flashback to the 80s again....

You can thank big oil and the greenies for that one........

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Camino... you're absolutely right. Citation would have been a better description.

Between the Vega's mini-70-Camaro styling and the fact it was RWD ,not to

mention the Cosworth connection, it was way more car (for its day) than

the GM(E)-Daewoo crap that G is trying to put lipstick on right now.

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Idle thoughts~

The relatively lame show 'Gearz' on Speed this morning did an interesting retrospect. They narrated a brief recap of the mid '70s, centric to the new cars available, showing quick commercial clips of such pulse-quickening cars as the Pacer & Opel, then mentioned as how the muscle car was gone & most 'car guys' were almost looked down apon for valuing performance & performance cars. They were undoubtedly dark days for car enthusiasts.

The flip side was a lead-in to the unbridaled fun that was Smokey & the Bandit (and the Year One Bandit III).

It struck me we're witnessing a replay of a very similar scenario, esp WRT Pontiac. Of course by '77 when Smokey came out, the T/A was already in the lineup with all the hardware in place & it was the last performance car available. But a refreshing along with it's placement in S&TB had the Firebird line selling 211K by '79.

Today is slightly different, in that there's no money and no one in management cares for the potential of Pontiac anymore, but that aside, with the economy looking to be in the dumper for at least a year or 3, and the swell of marketshare for puddlejumpers... a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

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a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

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You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

With nothing replacing it but more FWD BS?

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You do know that there won't be a Kappa platform after 2011/2012 model year, don't you?

:confused0071:

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With nothing replacing it but more FWD BS?

I'm going to assume it will be replaced by NOTHING.

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If I want a Pontiac, I'll buy one of these ...

ltn_70_LeMans.JPG

... Or one of these ...

81transam.jpg

Edited by YellowJacket894

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Balthy makes a compelling point ...of course I agree.

YJ: Amen. :) Still a RWD-Kappa 4-seater would be awesome, esp. with

the appropriate signature Pontiac styling, a manual trans would be a

must and so would a sub-25K price.

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Idle thoughts~

The relatively lame show 'Gearz' on Speed this morning did an interesting retrospect. They narrated a brief recap of the mid '70s, centric to the new cars available, showing quick commercial clips of such pulse-quickening cars as the Pacer & Opel, then mentioned as how the muscle car was gone & most 'car guys' were almost looked down apon for valuing performance & performance cars. They were undoubtedly dark days for car enthusiasts.

The flip side was a lead-in to the unbridaled fun that was Smokey & the Bandit (and the Year One Bandit III).

It struck me we're witnessing a replay of a very similar scenario, esp WRT Pontiac. Of course by '77 when Smokey came out, the T/A was already in the lineup with all the hardware in place & it was the last performance car available. But a refreshing along with it's placement in S&TB had the Firebird line selling 211K by '79.

Today is slightly different, in that there's no money and no one in management cares for the potential of Pontiac anymore, but that aside, with the economy looking to be in the dumper for at least a year or 3, and the swell of marketshare for puddlejumpers... a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

It could work...

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YJ: Amen. :) Still a RWD-Kappa 4-seater would be awesome, esp. with

the appropriate signature Pontiac styling, a manual trans would be a

must and so would a sub-25K price.

There's just one problem: no one at GM has the big, brazen balls needed to build such a car like that for Pontiac.

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I'm disappointed that this topic turned into another "how to save Pontiac" rant.

I thought the original topic was how the death/emasculation of Pontiac would affect the relationship each of us have with GM?

It wouldn't impact my buying decision, and I doubt it would impact most US fans/buyers of other GM brands. It certainly wouldn't impact the buyers/fans in GM's global markets.

I'm not saying it's fair, that Pontiac has been given the proper attention, that it even had a chance. I'm also not talking about what would/could "prevent" its demise from happening. I'm strictly talking about if it happened.

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I would not be affected at all, there will be plenty of W body parts for years to come, just as there are for 1968 - 1972 A body parts.

But, you would also continue to buy new vehicles from other GM brands.

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But, you would also continue to buy new vehicles from other GM brands.

Of course, in 2010 or 2011 der Bö®gÉr will be moving on to Cadillac for my personal car. Cadillac will be my new GM brand of choice.

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Except for the G8, and its ST, Pontiac has nothing of interest for me currently; and save for the GTO of the few years past, nothing they've made for years has interested me.

Still, I'd be upset if Pontiac was shut down, mostly because if GM had their wits about them years ago, Pontiac could have been something really special, instead of being reduced to rebadging Cobalt's and Aveo's.

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There's just one problem: no one at GM has the big, brazen balls needed to build such a car like that for Pontiac.

Oh, there are people at GM who would love to build a car like that for Pontiac. They just work for people who are being told to STFU because it's going to Chevy <_<

And that's what gets me. It isn't a case of "we don't have the money" or "we need to focus on fuel economy". The whole scenario surrounding Pontiac reeks of sabotage and, eventually, planned obsolesence. Pontiac can get an Alpha that's unique in NA. Non GXP G8s can get a manual. Zeta's fuel economy can be improved until Alpha is ready. The Solstice can get new sheetmetal and powertrains to keep it interesting for a few more years. All of this can happen with relatively little investment, and yet keep Pontiac from being a one stop rebadge shop. But it'll never happen, because someone doesn't want it to. So in a couple of years we'll have:

G3: rebadged Aveo

G5: rebadged Cruze

G6: rebadged Malibu

whoop dee :censored: doo!

Hell yeah this strains my relationship with GM. But I'm just one person. If anyone thinks that America won't care if Pontiac dies, they are sadly mistaken. It'll do nothing but further weaken public opinion of the company and provide further proof that if you want a car you're better off buying imported. Consider the following:

GM Lays off x,xxx Workers

GM Loses x.xB this Quarter

GM to Close x Plants

GM Sales Down x.x Percent

Consumers are peppered with headlines like these regularly. Throw in "GM to Close Down Pontiac" and it'll do nothing but accelerate the country's move away from GM.

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I would not be affected at all, there will be plenty of W body parts for years to come, just as there are for 1968 - 1972 A body parts.

I can't imagine down the road that anyone would want to fix up or restore something as mundane as a W-body.

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I can't imagine down the road that anyone would want to fix up or restore something as mundane as a W-body.

Millions have been sold, I think you will be surprised. Check back with me in 20 years.

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I have no doubt about the availability of W body parts for years to come. They're as close as your neareast junkyard. :booyah:

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Won't affect me at all. There are plenty of good choices on the market.

Many here don't seem to understand GM's business model. It is and has been for about 40 years to sell the same or similar cars differentiated by styling and marketing perception. Pontiac's line-up in its best year ever, 1979, consisted of boats (Bonneville, Catalina, Grand Prix, Grand LeMans), economy cars (Phoenix, Sunbird) and emasculated sporty cars (Firebird/Trans Am). Best sales year ever. Hardly what you would call a "performance" lineup.

Pontiac has never (not even in the vaunted 1960s) been all about performance. Lots of workaday Lemans were sold to little old ladies to keep the factory lights on. No, Pontiac has adapted to whatever was hot at the time (personal luxury coupes in the 70s, small cars in the 80s, minivans in the 90s and SUVs in the 2000s).

GM will continue this business strategy because it has to, i.e., there's not enough money to remake the company. The problem is that the world has left GM's strategy behind. Just think about the choices buyers have now that they didn't have in 1979: Hyundai, Kia, Mitsubishi, Mini, Scion, Saturn(!), Suzuki. And here are a few that were around in 1979 but who have stepped up their game considerably since: Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Mazda, Subaru, Volkswagen.

Pontiac will gradually fade and no one will notice. Pontiac dealers will be like canaries in a coal mine without oxygen: they'll drop dead one by one. Enjoy the Solstice and G8 while you can. They were Lutz's unsuccessful pet projects and an anomaly never to be repeated.

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>>"I thought the original topic was how the death/emasculation of Pontiac would affect the relationship each of us have with GM?<<

I would be extremely saddened if Pontiac were discontinued, as -if I had to pigeonhole myself- I would consider myself a Pontiac man. But I'm not one of those 'I-got-a-painful-splinter,-I'm done-with-walks-in-the-forest' types who would swear off GM entirely if Pontiac were my favorite and it was discontinued. Gotta love the dimbulbs who swore off Americans cars in total after 1 bad experience, like country of origin meant anything there. I just don't get that mindset at all- like it's a retaliation of some sort that might actually register somewhere.

Would I look at other GM products if Pontiac were gone? Yes. And I agree with : >>"I doubt it would impact most US fans/buyers of other GM brands"<< also.

However, my response falls off the scale- my personal love for Pontiacs centers on the 1960s, not anything current.

Edited by balthazar

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Oh, there are people at GM who would love to build a car like that for Pontiac. They just work for people who are being told to STFU because it's going to Chevy <_<

See, that was exactly my point. Sure, there are people within GM who would love to build great and unique products for Pontiac, but is there anyone around to be bold enough to take a risk and constantly stand up and tell the Chevrolet team to stay back and let Pontiac do what Pontiac needs to do? No.

Edited by YellowJacket894

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No one should be upset if Pontiac goes away. G3 and G5 fans can get the same car at Chevy, Vibe fans can get a Toyota, G6 fans can find a better car in the Aura or Malibu, Solsstice fans can get a Sky, and the G8 isn't selling, and they could easily sell a Holden as a Chevy.

GM's road to recovery is not in rebadged Pontiacs and GMCs, it is in making Chevy at least equal to Honda and Toyota, and Cadillac equal to Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. Chevy and Cadillac have a long way to go still, Pontiac, Saab, Hummer are distractions at this point.

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Consumers are peppered with headlines like these regularly. Throw in "GM to Close Down Pontiac" and it'll do nothing but accelerate the country's move away from GM.

Couldn't agree more. Most of the public probably doesn't understand the whole "too many brands" situation at GM and will equate GM closing another brand=GM going out of business/failing/etc...A company that is doing so poorly that they have to shutter divisions isn't a company most people would have much confidence in buying products from. The media will probably have a field day.

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The media is already having a field day, but who cares about them they need to build cars that beat Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes. GM has lost $51.3 billion in the past 3 years. Meanwhile Toyota made $42.75 billion in profit. That is a 94 billion dollar difference over 3 years. GM isn't going to be competitive for very long at that rate. It's time to cut the fat and pour money into Chevy and Cadillac and protect the core.

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To answer the ORIGINAL question...

I'm 25 and a grad student, so I'm not old enough or established enough to afford a Cadillac any time soon.

Though Pontiac isn't nearly as exciting as it purports itself to be (save for the G8 and, according to others, the Solstice), it at least looks the part. Fun-looking and reasonably fun to drive is where Pontiac is now, and its lower price points are geared to younger potential buyers like me.

If they kill Pontiac, and I want to buy a car that's most likely satisfying to drive, on the side of fun, it'd have to be a Camaro or a Caddy. But my wife has already said I can't get anything with two doors (thinking ahead to when we have kids). And I won't be able to afford a Cadillac for a few years yet... plus, there's no official word on what's to become of the STS replacement, so that's up in the air as well.

So if Pontiac were gone, I'd have to look elsewhere. Chevy is lacking what I want (at least until an Impala replacement NOT on W), Saturn rather sucks as far as sedans go, Buick is nice but still too "mature" IMO, and Cadillac is still out of my range. That leaves GMC Acadia, but if that dies, I'm most likely looking elsewhere... somewhere.

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Oh finally, someone who understands the inner workings of GM.

Who disturbs the Great Divisions of GM? (Picture the Wizard of Oz here) Pay no attention to the GME man behind the curtain.

Sure...

That's a valid representation of reality.... UNTIL YOU HIT THE MARKETING DEPARTMENT.

There are 20 companies that sell cars. It isn't hard to make an excellent product with technology that hasn't changed that much in 50 years (No matter what GM tells you)

The difference is how you market the product and who forms an emotional attachment to the product. I can go anywhere and buy a car. But I can't go anywhere and buy (what I perceive to be) a Pontiac. Because "Pontiac" represents who I am, just like "Toyota" might represent who Satty is. (And I don't mean that as a bad thing. To each his own)

So now (That the product is so easy -- there is no quality or technology or performance gap anymore) the BRANDS could become more of an asset than ever. You can't sell me a PONTIAC through CHEVROLET because CHEVROLET "isn't me". Just like you can't sell a Toyota through Lexus because "Toyota" doesn't represent Lexus.

So here is the real dilemma: Does GM think it's worth it to keep producing, or try to expand a division (Pontiac) that LESS AND LESS people identify with? Is GM willing to invest in the division to expand it's appeal or will they sell us, the people who have been faithful to them all these years, out?

It always annoys me when people bring up comparisons to regular run-of-the-mill products. An Aiwa stereo? Seriously? Any good economist will tell you that a durable goods purchase, especially one as deeply embedded in our minds as an automobile (perhaps nothing else on the market is like it) considers A LOT more thought that regular goods.

I don't see people buying accessories for their Sony Walkmans and parading them through the neighborhood to show them off.

As for my relationship with GM, if Pontiac goes away....

Hmm...

I'm not sure what I'll do. If they can justify it (Seriously justify it and not just blow smoke up our asses) then I *might* be able to forgive. I'm still pretty pissed off about Oldsmobile, but I blame that more on the imports than GM.

Thanks to all the &#036;h&#33; PCS talks (You know, a GM employee, that apparently likes pissing off GM enthusiasts and running sales off) I'm already militant in regards to Saturn. I'm becoming sour on Cadillac (But then, only the V series products and Escalade seriously appeal to me anyway) I could never see myself in a Buick (Unless the Alpha Riviera is actually a go, I'm just *interested* to see it) I will never, ever buy a Saab. Even though I loved Hummer for it's image, unless they produced the HX I would've never bought there. So that leaves GMC (which is where I WOULD go if I wanted a GM truck) and Chevrolet. Traditionally, I'm a Chevy fan. But the only way I could see them getting my money now (the way they look to be headed) is through the HHR SS or Cobalt coupe SS (Both supposedly discontinued soon) or a higher level model like the Camaro SS or Corvette Z06.

I could definitely see myself in a Ford, if need be. I'll ALWAYS own classics, especially if we go all electric. I could also see myself in a RWD or SRT Chrysler product. And I could even see myself giving BMW or *gulp* Mini a try.

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It looks like I'm not alone in this.

Everyone on here talks up a big game, but when it comes down to it, more and more people will be shopping for smaller, more fuel efficient cars. Canada differentiates from the U.S. in this way. Up here, we have accepted smaller cars moreso than in the U.S. so in trying times such as these, we, as a country, aren't feeling as though we are giving up everything we love about the big American car and "settling" with smaller cars, such as our American brethren.

Pontiac, for what it's worth, was a great division up until recently. Unfortunately, it's fallen into defeat by the state of the economy, and future trying economic times. GM isn't the only corporation to fall into such drastic decision making, it's happening all over. As Satty has said, you won't ever see sales of a million mustangs in 18 months, but someday you might see that from a camry or malibu. I think this to be true as well. It's just a sign of the times, and if we don't like it, well, that's just too bad for us. If any of you would like to front the bill to save a division, by all means, help GM out. It's funny that you all expect GM as a corporation to hold onto a heritage division that there's no longer a market for, while at the same time trying to acrue some much-needed assets. You have to realize that there's less cost to GM (at this point in time) to expend Pontiac, than Saturn. If you want to be pissed about it, so be it, but that's the situation they find themselves in, self-inflicted or not.

Okay, 1) I proposed a Pontiac plan that would make them VERY relevant in the years going forward. See the front page for that. (Not being an ass, just an FYI because I'm excited about it)

2) I would LOVE to see GM 'spin off' Pontiac to some investors. If I had extra money, I would certainly be interested in the division. It would never be the same again, but that's not a bad thing.

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A small, RWD/opt. AWD/coupe/sedan/convertible/wagon/4 cyl./turbo 4cyl./6 cyl/manual/automatic would cost money that GM simply doesn't have. How many 3-Series did BMW sell last year? Not just in the U.S. but worldwide? The cost would have to be spread out, Pontiac isn't a world brand and U.S. sales wouldn't be high enough to justify that kind of investment. So why wouldn't they just take this car and give it to Buick or Cadillac, both of which have a presence in China, which is a huge market?

The platform and development are done in the form of Alpha and/or Kappa II

And yes, BUICK could be given the car (with a different nose) for China (To slot below the Park Avenue)

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I don't see people buying accessories for their Sony Walkmans and parading them through the neighborhood to show them off.

Sony Walkman? That is so 15 years ago... Apple iPods (and iPhones) are the gadgets of this era...

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Idle thoughts~

The relatively lame show 'Gearz' on Speed this morning did an interesting retrospect. They narrated a brief recap of the mid '70s, centric to the new cars available, showing quick commercial clips of such pulse-quickening cars as the Pacer & Opel, then mentioned as how the muscle car was gone & most 'car guys' were almost looked down apon for valuing performance & performance cars. They were undoubtedly dark days for car enthusiasts.

The flip side was a lead-in to the unbridaled fun that was Smokey & the Bandit (and the Year One Bandit III).

It struck me we're witnessing a replay of a very similar scenario, esp WRT Pontiac. Of course by '77 when Smokey came out, the T/A was already in the lineup with all the hardware in place & it was the last performance car available. But a refreshing along with it's placement in S&TB had the Firebird line selling 211K by '79.

Today is slightly different, in that there's no money and no one in management cares for the potential of Pontiac anymore, but that aside, with the economy looking to be in the dumper for at least a year or 3, and the swell of marketshare for puddlejumpers... a really well packaged -say- Kappa-based 4-place Pontiac, along with the right pop culture nudge, could really pop after a span of years where people are forcing themselves into cars they feel they 'need' vs what they want. Pontiac is exactly type of division to reinject fun into what's going to be a stressful, compromised period of car buying.

+1

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Of course, in 2010 or 2011 der Bö®gÉr will be moving on to Cadillac for my personal car. Cadillac will be my new GM brand of choice.

So basically another FWD mass produced GM car to replace your current FWD mass produced GM car. (By then, surely cadillac will be thieving basic &#036;h&#33;ty hardware from all corners of the empire right? In their struggle to march down market to sell volume over image)

All sarcasm aside, I thought you had settled on a Saab? Trading camps are we?

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I can't imagine down the road that anyone would want to fix up or restore something as mundane as a W-body.

Chevy sold like eleventy-million Impalas in 1965(making them somewhat mundane), they're going on eBay for up to $45,000.

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Oh, there are people at GM who would love to build a car like that for Pontiac. They just work for people who are being told to STFU because it's going to Chevy <_<

And that's what gets me. It isn't a case of "we don't have the money" or "we need to focus on fuel economy". The whole scenario surrounding Pontiac reeks of sabotage and, eventually, planned obsolesence. Pontiac can get an Alpha that's unique in NA. Non GXP G8s can get a manual. Zeta's fuel economy can be improved until Alpha is ready. The Solstice can get new sheetmetal and powertrains to keep it interesting for a few more years. All of this can happen with relatively little investment, and yet keep Pontiac from being a one stop rebadge shop. But it'll never happen, because someone doesn't want it to. So in a couple of years we'll have:

G3: rebadged Aveo

G5: rebadged Cruze

G6: rebadged Malibu

whoop dee :censored: doo!

Hell yeah this strains my relationship with GM. But I'm just one person. If anyone thinks that America won't care if Pontiac dies, they are sadly mistaken. It'll do nothing but further weaken public opinion of the company and provide further proof that if you want a car you're better off buying imported. Consider the following:

GM Lays off x,xxx Workers

GM Loses x.xB this Quarter

GM to Close x Plants

GM Sales Down x.x Percent

Consumers are peppered with headlines like these regularly. Throw in "GM to Close Down Pontiac" and it'll do nothing but accelerate the country's move away from GM.

And that's why I will NOT buy a new GM again (If this happens) unless there is justification. And right now, it looks as if there is absolutely NO justification.

What's funny is that, at this point in time one COULD argue that Pontiac has the most DIVERSE line up at GM WITH the most appeal. And maybe that's why others in the empire (or village rather, now that the ship is sinking so fast) are so pissed off.

Think about it, Pontiac has VOLUME players (G3, G5, G6, Vibe & Torrent) Pontiac has HALO cars (G8, Solstice & Solstice Targa) and Pontiac has cars THAT NO OTHER DIVISION OFFERS (Solstice Targa, G8 [in this price range -- Actually, NO other GM division save cadillac offers a competitive large car at all], G8 ST, G6 coupe, G6 convertible and would be G8 wagon and/or GTO)

Had GM executed the product that Pontiac has CORRECTLY and built the image that the brand deserves, the investment would be paying off HUGE by now.

But instead, GM took the lazy way out by rebadging 2 of the volume products, not promoting the other 3 and barely promoting and/or canceling the halo products.

It's typical GM ignorance and politics. They have all of the POTENTIAL in the world, but they squander it on a means to a suicide.

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Won't affect me at all. There are plenty of good choices on the market.

Many here don't seem to understand GM's business model. It is and has been for about 40 years to sell the same or similar cars differentiated by styling and marketing perception. Pontiac's line-up in its best year ever, 1979, consisted of boats (Bonneville, Catalina, Grand Prix, Grand LeMans), economy cars (Phoenix, Sunbird) and emasculated sporty cars (Firebird/Trans Am). Best sales year ever. Hardly what you would call a "performance" lineup.

Agreed... And I would be fine with pontiacs current line up (G3 included) as long as it stays this broad and keeps the division around.

Pontiac will gradually fade and no one will notice. Pontiac dealers will be like canaries in a coal mine without oxygen: they'll drop dead one by one. Enjoy the Solstice and G8 while you can. They were Lutz's unsuccessful pet projects and an anomaly never to be repeated.

I wouldn't exactly call them "unsuccessful"

And I certainly hope GM isn't dumb enough to just let Pontiac die, when it has the means to support the division (in one form or another) indefinitely.

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No one should be upset if Pontiac goes away. G3 and G5 fans can get the same car at Chevy, Vibe fans can get a Toyota, G6 fans can find a better car in the Aura or Malibu, Solsstice fans can get a Sky, and the G8 isn't selling, and they could easily sell a Holden as a Chevy.

GM's road to recovery is not in rebadged Pontiacs and GMCs, it is in making Chevy at least equal to Honda and Toyota, and Cadillac equal to Mercedes, BMW and Lexus. Chevy and Cadillac have a long way to go still, Pontiac, Saab, Hummer are distractions at this point.

It's not that simple.

And GM's road to recovery is not about homogeny either.

But a little part of me hopes that they (GM) think it is, because I can't wait to say "I told you so"

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The media is already having a field day, but who cares about them they need to build cars that beat Honda, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes. GM has lost $51.3 billion in the past 3 years. Meanwhile Toyota made $42.75 billion in profit. That is a 94 billion dollar difference over 3 years. GM isn't going to be competitive for very long at that rate. It's time to cut the fat and pour money into Chevy and Cadillac and protect the core.

How much of that difference is 'accounting' and how much is real money?

Pontiac is not the reason GM is losing money. Business is cyclical and GM management should've seen (and corrected) the 'maturation' of the union and the problems that would cause LONG AGO.

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Sony Walkman? That is so 15 years ago... Apple iPods (and iPhones) are the gadgets of this era...

I know that was my natural sarcasm shining through :D

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All sarcasm aside, I thought you had settled on a Saab? Trading camps are we?

Not at all. Saab is GME. GME and Cadillac share the same goals, so what's good for one, is good for the other. Hopefully by 2011 I will be tooling around in a diesel CTS or Cadillac Alpha.

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Speaking of Pontiac, in the 1990s, when I was in my 20s, they had nothing really that appealed to me.. I don't do FWD and I didn't care for the gaudy 4th gen Firebirds...so in my 20s, I drove Fords and BMWs... in this decade, I've been into Jeep and BMW. In my 40s (less than 2 years away), Cadillac is going to be my brand, unless I go back to BMW, or to Lincoln or Infiniti...

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How much of that difference is 'accounting' and how much is real money?

Pontiac is not the reason GM is losing money. Business is cyclical and GM management should've seen (and corrected) the 'maturation' of the union and the problems that would cause LONG AGO.

Even if only 1/3 was real money, that is still a $31 billion difference. And GM is going to lose money this year and probably next, while Toyota is raking it in.

I know Pontiac isn't the reason they are losing money, but the company is losing too much to keep operating the way they have in the past.

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GME and Cadillac share the same goals, so what's good for one, is good for the other.

And what are those specific goals?

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...how will that affect your relationship with GM as a whole?

For me, it will mean a near total loss of interest in the company as a whole. All of my life I have watched GM kill anything of interest just when they finally get it right.

What I'll be left with is old GM cars and possibly an occasional Chevy that I'll be interested in.

Otherwise, GM will already be dead to me.

It would be kind of a shame for them not to do something with Pontiac, but I don't think it would change how I view the company all that much.

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