MRDETROITMETAL

The DEATH of Toyota !

38 posts in this topic

Over the past few months it has become apparent to everyone that Toyota builds JUNK...dangerous, flawed & totally irresponsible appliances "posing" as automobiles, excuse me..."Cars". Not only have they knowingly sold their garbage to unsuspecting consumers worldwide...BUT THE CARS ARE KILLING PEOPLE !!!!...34 PEOPLE IN THE USA TO DATE...and NOW, Toyota is bragging about "fooling the dumb Americans" !!!! !

:shock:

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Documents: Toyota boasted saving $100M on recall

By KEN THOMAS, AP

2 hours ago - 2/21/10 AP WIRE NEWS

WASHINGTON — Toyota officials claimed they saved the company $100 million by successfully negotiating with the government on a limited recall of floor mats in some Toyota and Lexus vehicles, according to new documents shared with congressional investigators.

Toyota, in an internal presentation in July 2009 at its Washington office, said it saved $100 million or more by negotiating an "equipment recall" of floor mats involving 55,000 Toyota Camry and Lexus ES350 vehicles in September 2007.

The savings are listed under the title, "Wins for Toyota — Safety Group." The document cites millions of dollars in other savings by delaying safety regulations, avoiding defect investigations and slowing down other industry requirements.

The documents could set off alarms in Congress over whether Toyota put profits ahead of customer safety and pushed regulators to narrow the scope of recalls. Two House committees are holding hearings this week on the Japanese automaker's recall of 8.5 million vehicles in recent months to deal with safety problems involving gas pedals, floor mats and brakes.

The world's largest automaker has been criticized for responding too slowly to complaints of sudden acceleration in its vehicles, threatening to undermine its reputation for quality and safety.

The documents were turned over to the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee and obtained by The Associated Press on Sunday. The presentation was first reported by The Detroit News.

Toyota said in a statement: "Our first priority is the safety of our customers and to conclude otherwise on the basis of one internal presentation is wrong. Our values have always been to put the customer first and ensure the highest levels of safety and quality."

Kurt Bardella, a spokesman for Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., the top Republican on the Oversight Committee, said the documents raise questions on "whether Toyota was lobbying for less rigid actions from regulators to protect their bottom line."

Transportation Department spokeswoman Olivia Alair called the document "very telling. And that's why Secretary (Ray) LaHood has been saying we're going to hold Toyota's feet to the fire and make sure they do what's necessary to make their cars safe for the driving public."

The new documents show the financial benefit of delay. In the presentation, Toyota said a phase-in to new safety regulations for side air bags saved the company $124 million and 50,000 man hours. Delaying a rule for tougher door locks saved $11 million.

On defect regulations, the document boasts that Toyota "avoided investigation" on rusting Tacoma pickup trucks. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration investigated the case in 2008 but closed it without finding a safety defect. Toyota agreed to buy back certain rusty pickups, inspect other and extend warranties.

The document lists seven "Wins for Toyota & Industry," including "favorable recall outcomes," "secured safety rulemaking favorable to Toyota" and "vehicles not in climate legislation." Another page lists "key safety issues," including "Sudden acceleration on ES/Camry, Tacoma, LS etc."

In one passage, the document says Toyota "negotiated 'equipment' recall on Camry/ES re SA; saved $100M+, w/ no defect found."

NHTSA had launched an investigation in March 2007 over allegations that floor mats were interfering with accelerator pedals. Toyota told the government a month later that there was "no possibility of the pedal interference with the all-weather floor mat if it's placed properly and secured."

By that August, the government had connected the problem to a dozen deaths and a survey of 600 Lexus owners discovered 10 percent reported sudden or unexpected acceleration. But the recall in September 2007 was limited to 55,000 Camry and ES350 vehicles to replace the floor mats.

The 10-page internal presentation was dated July 6, 2009, less than two months before a high-speed crash near San Diego killed a California highway patrol officer and his family and reignited concerns over sudden acceleration in Toyotas.

In October 2009, Toyota issued its largest-ever U.S. recall, involving about 4 million vehicles, over concerns of pedals getting stuck in floor mats.

The presentation lists Yoshi Inaba, Toyota's chief executive in North America, on its cover. Inaba is scheduled to testify before the House Energy and Commerce Committee on Wednesday, along with Toyota president Akio Toyoda and Jim Lentz, president of Toyota Motor Sales USA. The committee is also expected to hear from LaHood, NHTSA Administrator David Strickland and safety advocates.

The Oversight Committee is holding a hearing Tuesday with Lentz, LaHood and Strickland. A Senate committee is planning a March 2 hearing.

Toyota has said it will create an outside review of company operations, do a better job of responding to customer complaints and improve communication with federal officials.

Separately, the government said Sunday it was already investigating reports of sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles when the nation's largest auto insurer shared complaints about the issue.

The Transportation Department released documents showing that in December 2003 it began investigating 39 complaints of sudden acceleration involving 2002-03 Toyota Camry sedans. That was about three months before State Farm shared with NHTSA complaints of sudden acceleration in 2003-04 Lexus ES300s and 2002-04 Camrys.

The document released by LaHood said the department had received allegations of 26 crashes and 4 injuries involving drivers complaining of their vehicles surging when backing up, pulling in and out of parking spaces and shifting gears.

Reports of deaths in the U.S. connected to sudden acceleration in Toyota vehicles have surged in recent weeks, with the toll of deaths allegedly attributed to the problem reaching 34 since 2000, according to new consumer data gathered by the U.S. government.

:!:

IMO ..the company should be liquidated and the assets disbursed to people who bought their cars, the cars should be confiscated and destroyed.

For More on this Topic ;

http://www.stingraysstudios.com/Toyota.php

:evil:

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They are bleeding so much cash, over $25B in the last year alone,...it won't be long before the company is bankrupt...and once the lawyers get a grip on them in the USA...for wrongful death suits....I think they are done, forever. Seriously, 34 Americans have DIED from these "cars"...that is reason enough to kill Toyota off permenantly, IMO.

Of course the Japanese Government will "prop them up" with loans & currency alterations to make it LOOK like they are still viable...but IMO....Toyota is History.

It is just a matter of time, the clock is ticking...they have ruined their reputation & exposed the TRUE nature of the companies lack of all ethics.

They, the management of Toyota,... are pure scum.

Edited by MRDETROITMETAL
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Is there something you want to get off your chest, MDM?

*picks up note pad, fluffs pillow on leather couch, pulls up chair*

Here, lie down and tell me all about it.

*secretly agrees with patient*

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Toyota will return high on the hog, because consumers want to believe.

+1. I don't know if the mainstream's confidence in Toyota has really been shaken much...though the true believers probably think it's a government conspiracy against their favorite car maker.

Just an informal, specific poll, but I've asked around a number of coworkers and friends that are serial Toyota buyers, they don't seem bothered much by the recalls, though one is looking at the new Kia Sorrento to replace his '05 Highlander.

One positive anecdote--a friend's wife had been looking for a few months at the Camry, ES, Avalon, Altima, and Accord to replace her dying '99 Intrepid...I've been emailing her the bad news about Toyota, and suggested she look at the Malibu, Fusion, and Taurus also..heard Saturday that she bought a new Taurus.

My friend, her husband,a long time Acura and Nissan fan, is still a bit skeptical about a Ford, but it's her money and decision...

Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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I disagree. I think the "mainstream" that only reads USAToday headlines is very shaken by this. It upsets their worldview and their purchasing decisions. They'll just default over to Honda or this new car company...Furd? Fard?... something like that, they keep hearing good things about.

The "Toyota BEST EVAR!!!!1" are the ones who think this is a government conspiracy.

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Toyota is having some trouble right now, but I personally prefer to stick to the facts.

First off, it's awful that 34 people have died, but this is far from the most lethal product defect. For every person who has died from a runaway Toyota, hundreds have died in SUV rollovers. Well over 100 died from the Ford-Firestone blunder--and both of those companies are still in business. Plenty of lawyers make piles of money suing all volume auto makers for various defects that resulted in fatalities. If you think people have only died in Toyotas from getting floor mats stuck under the accelerator, think again.

Second, Toyota hasn't lost $25b in cash. You might be confusing this with losing $25b in the value of its stock. But a company's market value is irrelevant unless it needs to raise money through a stock offering. Toyota's credit rating remains far better than GM's. It's nowhere near going bankrupt. They might be where GM was in the late 1970s and early 1980s. If they manage to keep making bad decisions for two or three more decades, THEN they MIGHT go bankrupt.

Third, there are people within every auto company who are stupid enough to write a memo like this one.

Edited by mkaresh
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Great to have you post here Micheal.

I don't think the recall will kill Toyota. I think the recall will kill the perception people have about Toyota's quality. Once that is gone, what reason does one have to buy Toyota products. Very few of them are lookers in the styling department, their sports car production is basically dead, other than the Pruis their fuel efficiency isn't any better or worse than Hyundai or Chevy when compared model for model.

In short, the single biggest reason to buy a Toyota, the perception of quality, is now gone.

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^ I think Drew hit the nail on the head here...the "Myth" of Toyota quality has been revealed for what it is;...a Lie.

All manufactures use basically the SAME parts & components from industry suppliers ( as Toyo pointed out, but somehow the Pontiac version is free of this defect, so far )...that is because it is HOW you put the components and parts together that makes the difference...and the USA companies are doing a better job at that with designs that are much more attractive.

I was at my local Chevy dealer this weekend looking over the new Camaro & Corvette ...WOW !...and the salesman told me that they are selling "a lot more cars" after the Toyota Recall was started, and many of the trade ins are Toyotas (which they will not sell anymore on thier lots, they just send them to the auction to get rid of them fast!!)...and that these people are buying the Malibu, Impala and Cobalt...along with the Traverse, Equinox & Trailblazer.

That pretty much says it all,^...people are affected by the news reports in the mainstream media and they rather trade in their Toyo then get it fixed, because they have lost Trust in the manufacturer.

What comes around goes around...Toyo has earned this devaluation by selling Junk and doing it in spite of Knowing full well it was junk to start with. They deserve to die.

(OB...Can I use that scene in my movie script ?...It is awesome !!..LOL Yes I AM writing a Movie called MDM-1) :alcoholic:

I am going to post up a Toyo deathwatch meter on my site too !!!.....lmao. :smilewide:

:deathwatch:

Edited by MRDETROITMETAL
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All manufactures use basically the SAME parts & components from industry suppliers ( as Toyo pointed out, but somehow the Pontiac version is free of this defect, so far )...that is because it is HOW you put the components and parts together that makes the difference...and the USA companies are doing a better job at that with designs that are much more attractive.

WhA???

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Great to have you post here Micheal.

I don't think the recall will kill Toyota. I think the recall will kill the perception people have about Toyota's quality. Once that is gone, what reason does one have to buy Toyota products. Very few of them are lookers in the styling department, their sports car production is basically dead, other than the Pruis their fuel efficiency isn't any better or worse than Hyundai or Chevy when compared model for model.

In short, the single biggest reason to buy a Toyota, the perception of quality, is now gone.

They'll take a hit, but I don't think it will be nearly as big as you're implying.

In the end, people base their perceptions most heavily on their personal experience. Anything they (usually selectively) read or hear can amplify perceptions based on their experience. But if they have both direct experience and the media, direct experience will almost always win.

And while some people are having bad experiences with Toyotas, the great majority are not.

The media couldn't have hurt GM all by itself. The media was only able to hurt GM because it had literally millions of bad personal experiences to build from.

There is one other potential factor: concerns over resale. But the used values of Toyotas haven't plummeted, even in the middle of the firestorm. Once they're through the current crisis, resale values are likely to recover much if not all of the ground they've lost. There is some chance they won't--this is a key variable to track.

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WhA???

While it is true that automakers share suppliers, this isn't nearly like it is in the computer industry. The parts are still not the same parts. They are manufactured to each manufacturer's specs, and subject to that manufacturer's quality tests.

Back in the 1980s my father's best friend's brother was an exec at TRW. He used to tell me how Honda held them to much higher standards than Detroit did, and got much better parts as a result.

So sharing a supplier doesn't mean much. You might as well argue that every restaurant sharing a meat supplier serves the same quality steak.

Edited by mkaresh
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There is one other potential factor: concerns over resale. But the used values of Toyotas haven't plummeted, even in the middle of the firestorm. Once they're through the current crisis, resale values are likely to recover much if not all of the ground they've lost. There is some chance they won't--this is a key variable to track.

Resale values of Toyota have dropped and the reason why they have not plummeted is because in people's perceptions of the older models are still unmoved and they still partially believe that it is the newer ones which are recall prone. In a couple of years when the 09 and 10 come in a large quantity then a real judgment can be made about it. There is definitely a dip of up to 10% in the vehicle values since the recall was announced. Which in short term is not insignificant. As inventory swell and people start dumping more Toyotas in the used car market the real signs will follow. I believe that the aftershock is yet to take place.

Time is important here. It took GM 30 years to be at this stage. It would be not wise to think Toyota will be there in a few weeks. But the damage has certainly been done.

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An example of consumers' mindset based on MSNBC Autos

Laura Benin, 34, of New York City chose a 2009 Corolla for her first car purchase a year ago because of Toyota's stellar reputation. Now she's reluctant to drive her car even after the potential acceleration problem is fixed, but knows this is a bad time to try to sell it. "It's a little bit scary to think the car with the greatest reputation for safety is in the situation it's in now," she says.
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I wouldn't be surprised by 10%, but KBB reported 3%. Which was smaller than I expected.

The heavily publicized recalls of the last few years have affected the 2007 and on cars. There's no reason for people to think the problems only affect the current model year. Not that perceptions always make sense.

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Death of Toyota? Absolutely not.

All I'm going to say is that I met with former colleagues for dinner a week ago, and when I came outside I saw something that shocked me. I said, "Denise?! You traded your recalled car for a brand-new recalled car?!" She said, "Yup." I asked if she got her new gas pedal yet on her 2010 Camry LE and she replied she hadn't.

It boggles my mind.

On the positive note, two friends who are current Toyota owners are scared to purchase another one-and one of them has to get a bigger car for a new baby coming in so we'll see what I can steer him to. (I'm trying to coax him into a new Nox).

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I wouldn't be surprised by 10%, but KBB reported 3%. Which was smaller than I expected.

The heavily publicized recalls of the last few years have affected the 2007 and on cars. There's no reason for people to think the problems only affect the current model year. Not that perceptions always make sense.

The bolded part is where Toyota still has good fanbase to cause a significant damage too soon. Like Drew said before, I would start buying Toyota stock because of the dip in prices. Like it or not, the company gave dividends - a rarity for automobile industry.

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And while some people are having bad experiences with Toyotas, the great majority are not.

The media couldn't have hurt GM all by itself. The media was only able to hurt GM because it had literally millions of bad personal experiences to build from.

Again, this isn't about actual experiences with Toyota. This is about the perception of the company. If more comes out about what Toyota knew and how they handled that knowledge that isn't good, the trust people put in the company will be broken.

While GM did give the media a lot of fodder to work with in the past, there are plenty of instances of the media harping on GM for things that their competitors did also. How long have we been reading about GM's "ancient" 4-speed auto? Years right? Camry kept it's 4-speed auto till 2005. The Accord still had one in 2002... but go look at a review for a 2002 Impala and you'll find some journalist harping about the 4-speed. Corolla *still* has a 4-speed for the base auto, which makes any harping on a Cobalt's 4-speed disingenuous. I remember reading reviews about the CTS where they took points off the car because they felt the steering wheel was too big. Then there's the review where the BMW had catastrophic brake failure during the evaluation and it still took 1st place.

There's the performance evaluations that pit cars against each other that share a price point but very different size points and the journalists are shocked shocked that the smaller car is easier to throw around turns.

I could go on and on and on.... and I have..... but the point is that there was definitely a piling on by the media on GM.

edit: One of my favorites is that nearly every review of the current CTS-V manage to get a mention of the Cimmaron or 8-6-4 into the first paragraph..... Just once I want to see a review of the M3 or M5 that starts off with how awful the Isetta was.....

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Death of Toyota? Absolutely not.

All I'm going to say is that I met with former colleagues for dinner a week ago, and when I came outside I saw something that shocked me. I said, "Denise?! You traded your recalled car for a brand-new recalled car?!" She said, "Yup." I asked if she got her new gas pedal yet on her 2010 Camry LE and she replied she hadn't.

It boggles my mind.

On the positive note, two friends who are current Toyota owners are scared to purchase another one-and one of them has to get a bigger car for a new baby coming in so we'll see what I can steer him to. (I'm trying to coax him into a new Nox).

A friend and client of mine is on his 3rd Toyota Avalon. I tried to talk him into at least looking at a Lucerne the last time, but he said that he has a friend at the local Toyota dealer who gets him really good deals. He told me yesterday while looking over the GMC Acadia I'm currently driving that this Avalon will be his last. Though it's got 120k miles on it, he's had a number of issues with it, is bored with it (big surprise there), and the newest one isn't different enough for him to get another. The recall frenzy just put him over the top to look outside of Toyota this time around.

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Although many good points have been mentioned in this thread, one major one has been overlooked: that is that Toyota's boring cars mainly appeal to the (large) minority of people who can't think for themselves and believe everything that they read. That type of consumer is VERY susceptible to media 'piling on.' What is happening to Toyota now is nothing more than media 'piling on,' and although I am loving every minute of it, I believe this has the potential to hurt Toyota very, very deeply.

Consumer's Reports already threw up the first warning shot 2 years ago when they apologised for automatically giving Toyota the benefit of the doubt on their launches of new vehicles, but only after so many troubles plagued the Camry and Avalon that they had to say something! If Toyota loses CR, they are finished. That is the bible for the brain dead.

Will it bankrupt them? Certainly not, but then if you'd told GM executives in '95 that they'd be bankrupt in 14 years, you'd have been laughed out of Detroit. The internet and electronic media were in their infancy in '95. Toyota's foibles are going to be circulated farther and wider than GM's were and in an area that is truly Toyota's Achilles heal. For what else do they have, other than the myth of their durability?

At just the time when GM and Ford have their mojo back, Toyota cannot afford this groundswell of truth.

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While it is true that automakers share suppliers, this isn't nearly like it is in the computer industry. The parts are still not the same parts. They are manufactured to each manufacturer's specs, and subject to that manufacturer's quality tests.

Back in the 1980s my father's best friend's brother was an exec at TRW. He used to tell me how Honda held them to much higher standards than Detroit did, and got much better parts as a result.

So sharing a supplier doesn't mean much. You might as well argue that every restaurant sharing a meat supplier serves the same quality steak.

That's why I was so alarmed by the comment. I certainly know that it isn't as simple as that comment made it out to be.

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[/b]

The bolded part is where Toyota still has good fanbase to cause a significant damage too soon. Like Drew said before, I would start buying Toyota stock because of the dip in prices. Like it or not, the company gave dividends - a rarity for automobile industry.

True....

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