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dado

Cadillac engine sharing with other divisions of GM

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How would you guys feel if top engine in Cadillac top model wasn't a same engine as the one in Corvette rather it was engine coming from other manufacturer, for example Lotus, or engine made just for Cadillac?

Reading about new Lotus models i came across this article "New engine from Lotus". In text there is explanation why there are thinking about their own v8

Bahar also revealed that customer reaction to the new Esprit being powered by a Toyota V8, as was originally planned, was behind the decision.

“In the mind of sports-car enthusiasts, Toyota power might not be good enough,” he said.

But the final decision on whether Lotus will green light the cash for engine development will be taken at the end of January. “The decision then will be purely financial,” said Bahar.

Could Cadillac face the same problem in near future? If there will be luxury RWD sedan above CTS maybe potential buyers will think that the engine from Corvette, Chevrolet RWD sedan , some pickup truck or SUV, is not good enough for top model Cadillac?

I'm not saying here DOHC is better than CIB engine or something like that. But i'm saying that maybe GM could develop engine that is different enough in buyer's eyes. It can be version based on GEN 5 but different displacement than the engine in corvette, truck etc., corvette, truck etc. Mabe cam in cam design just for Cadillac engine. Make it diferent enough. Or GM could buy V8 from Lotus. Or even invest in development of new V8 with Lotus and have version of this new v8 for top end Cadillac.

Edited by dado

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I would love a Cadillac exclusive V8 engine. Due to the snob appeal of the competitors DOHC V8's that would be the most likely answer for Cadillac. So with that why not do DOHC heads for the small block with DI and a next gen AFM system using the next gen block? This could be unique from the Chevrolet truck/car SB's OHV configuration and also be a premium GMC Denali package opt along with a higher performance opt Corvette model. With a 5.5L 425HP version as the opt non V engine in the next CTS and a more powerful 6.0L version for the top end Cadillac sedan model this could work.

Edited by Carguy

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Yeah but it'll still be terrible because it won't be paired to a twenty speed 'ZF' transmission made from the recycled sheetmetal of five Sonata Turbo's. So obviously GM fails, and should not bother making Cadillac compete with anything over 25K.

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I could see an entire line of Cadillac exclusive engines with Cam-in-Cam SOHC heads using AFM and DI. Take the still built 3.9L ohv 60 degree V6 and replace the heads with these and according intake. Use that to replace the 3.6L HFV6 in Cadillac's lineup then do a SB based 4.9L V8 C-in-C SOHC and then a larger 5.9L V8 version for premium Cadillac models. A unique New CADILLAC Engine line using mostly existing components to save cost. Let the 3.0-3.6L HFV6 be used for Chevrolet and Buick models allowing Cadillac something unique to offer!

CTS. 3.9L 330HP Cam-in-Cam SOHC V6 std.

4.9L 400HP C-in-C-----SOHC V8 opt.

XTS 3.9L 330HP C-in-C-----SOHC V6.

Replacement

STS 3.9L 330HP C-in-C-----SOHC V6 std.

4.9L 400HP C-in-C-----SOHC V8 opt.

STS

Plus/LWB

4.9L 400HP C-in-C-----SOHC V8 std.

5.9L 475HP C-in-C-----SOHC V8 opt.

Edited by Carguy

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I look at it differently. I don't think the Caddy V8 should try to ilk out another 20~30 horses over the Corvette engine. I mean really, whatever the Corvette engine puts out, it'll be "enough".

What I'll like to see is additional features that enhances refinement in the Caddy engine. This can be a balance shaft in the oil pan. It can be an acoustic skirt around the block -- a perforated honeycomb sandwich like those used in the engine casing of commercial turbofan engines comes to mind. It can be a dual length intake. Or, even something simple like switching from a composite intake assembly to a cast magnesium or aluminum one (metal ones are quieter).

Also, the engine should -- dressed up or not -- look different from the Corvette version.

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I look at it differently. I don't think the Caddy V8 should try to ilk out another 20~30 horses over the Corvette engine. I mean really, whatever the Corvette engine puts out, it'll be "enough".

What I'll like to see is additional features that enhances refinement in the Caddy engine. This can be a balance shaft in the oil pan. It can be an acoustic skirt around the block -- a perforated honeycomb sandwich like those used in the engine casing of commercial turbofan engines comes to mind. It can be a dual length intake. Or, even something simple like switching from a composite intake assembly to a cast magnesium or aluminum one (metal ones are quieter).

Also, the engine should -- dressed up or not -- look different from the Corvette version.

I dont disagree with you on the power front and I would like your refinements on my proposed Cadillac engine lineup above. It seems Cadillac needs something unique from other GM brands to be premium in scope and image!

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As I have seen the Cadillac issue on engines. If you want people to pay more you need to give them more.

Just dropping in a Vette engine as is would not be enough for the high line cars. You may get away with it in the ATS and CTS but if they plan to to bigger, better and more expensive car they need to improve things a little just from a marketing point alone.

The ATS and CTS can share with other GM lines but even there I would like to see at least dome changes in the engine dress up.

The larger and more expensive larger cars need to be given something exculsive. If they want to go the Small block route give the engines a little more power. The more HP is not a threat to the Vette as they will still be moving 2 tons or better.

Now in a Flagship car it had better be something special if you going to claim World Class and expect someone to plunk down 6 figures plus.

You can still use the small block but it better not be just a hold over from the Caprice wagon or even the SS sedan. Holden has some real nice limted engines in the HSV line or even something Cadillac can make and share with the HSV line. Either way this needs to be a limited special SBC if it is a flagship.

Or they can broker a deal for a DOHC engine with another MFG. Something shared with the other MFG. We already have had Chevys with Honda engines and Hondas with Buicks etc. How about A Bently W engine packing some real HP. In the future with limited engines and other cars most of these small MFG like BMW, Aston and Lotus will need dance partners for development funds. They need to spread the cost out. This is a good time to make a good partnership with some of these people and share cost to make special cars.

But to put in just a stock Vette engine into a car and charge a lot of money for is silly. You can buy a used Police car in a year or two when a department sells off a used Caprice and get the same thing. Though the back seat may not be as comfortable.

This is one of the Problems Pontiac faced in the later years with the Trans Am vs Z28. The Trans Am should have offered a few more ponies under the hood for the extra price they charges. All we got were Pop Up headlamps and red dash lights.

It is not a sin to base an engine off the Chevy but it is total failure to offer the identical engine unchanged in a much higher priced Cadillac. If you want to convince your car is better than anyone else in class then make the damn thing better.

In this class many People know the differance between $hit and Shineola.

Edited by hyperv6
  • Upvote 1

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Yea- I never could understand the move to put a toyoyo 4-banger in a Lotus. Image-wise, that's a LCD in a HCD.

To follow it up with a proposed toyoyo V-8 flagship?? No way

Cadillac needs to build it's own motors, and one co-engineered with Lotus is not going to gain any traction in Cadillac's segment, IMO.

  • Upvote 1

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I think the 3.6 V6 could use some refinement, that would help Cadillac and the other brands as well. I don't see a problem with lower end Cadillac's sharing engines, especially when in a Cadillac it makes 304 hp and in a Buick 280. As you go up the price ladder though, you do have to offer more than what's in a Chevy. If Cadillac doesn't make their own unique engine (like when they had the Northstar) I'd rather see Cadillac buy engines off AMG than use Corvette engines.

I'd like to see a V12, why stop at V8. And to appease the greenies, a 300 hp/50 mpg hybrid-diesel drivetrain.

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Hmmm!

I believe GM is going to work with Ilmor again in Indy car engines. How about a joint effort with them to build a special engine for the flag ship and other high end Cadillac's. This way it has a racing heritage and a company that is noted for low volume high performance engineering.

I am sure Roger Penske would be more than happy to help since I believe is still the largest Cadillac dealer in the world and has tight control on Ilmor.

They could even tie this into the world speed Challange with the CTS V and a special edition in the like of a AMG Black.

Edited by hyperv6

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For the Flagship, I have always been a proponent of doing a 7.2 liter V12 based on the 3.6 DI V6, but with a new double length block casting and crankshaft...

Name: Cadillac Symphony V12

Type: 60 deg V12

Valvetrain: Chain Driven DOHC 48-valve; Dual VVT

Construction: Aluminum block and heads

Fuel Injection: Direct Gasoline Injection

Bore x Stroke: 94 x 85.6 mm

Capacity: 7128 cc

Bore Center: 103 mm

Compression ratio: 11.3:1

Power Output: 600 hp @ 6200 rpm

Torque Output: 550 lb @ 4800 rpm

Maximum Engine Speed: 6200 rpm

Fuel Grade: 91 Octane (Recommended); 87 Octane (Required)

Transmission: GM Hydramatic 6L90 (6-speed Automatic)

Differential: 149hp Rear Differential Motor/Generator*

Fuel Economy: 16 mpg (City) / 22 mpg (Hwy) (5300 lbs Cadillac Flagship)

* Derived from Chevy Volt Main Propulsion Motor. Provides an additional 273 lb-ft @ 0 mph and 149 hp at 70 mph. Energy supplied by and recovers to a 4 kWh Li-Ion Battery Pack. In Eco Mode, the motor can provide electric only propulsion at low throttle for up to 5 miles.

Edited by dwightlooi

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I am all for a Lotus and Caddy joint venture clean sheet DOHC engine for Cadillac application.

I'd like to see that happen; Lotus has immense engineering know-how. And they are looking into developing their own V8 so partnering with someone elsemight create enough volume to make it a good project.

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Buying complete engines from your competition is admitting engineering defeat.

No one complained that Lotus designed the 80's ZR1 and Merc Marine built it.

While a V12 is cool I am not sure if that is the right way to go. GM needs to avoid the mistakes Benz made with the Maybach. I would hate to see GM have to offer the rebates that were offered on the Maybach. $30,000. More is not alway the solution.

I have never been a fan of graftying two engines into one. Not many great engines in history have been created that way. I am not saying they can't do it but it is difficult to get it right vs a pourpose built V12. The Slant 4 Pontiac sounded like a good idea at one time too. So did the 4.3 V6 and it was never close to right till they got the balance shafts into it.

GM needs to look at the best and most advanced engines and come up with something that is as good and does not reak of a cop out grafting and mending of a truck or Malibu engine.

To do this right GM and someone else[Lotus, BMW, Ilmore, Cosworth or other independent company] need to partner to develope this jointly. Then they can work to make it in low Volume at a profit. The engine in the flag ship is like a part of a cake. You screw up the frosting the cake no matter how good it is sucks.

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No one complained that Lotus designed the 80's ZR1 and Merc Marine built it.

That is cool looking engine -Lt 5

lt5CutAway.JPG

Question is-if there will be new Lotus v8 engine what kind of engine will it be. Will it be a v8 with small displacement and hp at high rpm (since it would be an engine for sport car not 2+ tonne luxury sedan). Or if it is developed together some sort of 4.5-5.5 l v8 with capability of turbocharging for heavier sedan and natural aspired high revv engine for lighter sports car.

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any caddy v8 should be 4.5 to 5.0 litres.

perhaps with the ability to be modded to 6.0 litres.

a lotus and gm tie up on the v8 would add euro cred for caddy since folks in and outside the US feel GM has no ability to produce a quality motor by themselves (read:Europeans). If caddy ever wants in in Europe again they will need to have an angle like this with the euros.

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No one complained that Lotus designed the 80's ZR1 and Merc Marine built it.

While a V12 is cool I am not sure if that is the right way to go. GM needs to avoid the mistakes Benz made with the Maybach. I would hate to see GM have to offer the rebates that were offered on the Maybach. $30,000. More is not alway the solution.

I have never been a fan of graftying two engines into one. Not many great engines in history have been created that way. I am not saying they can't do it but it is difficult to get it right vs a pourpose built V12. The Slant 4 Pontiac sounded like a good idea at one time too. So did the 4.3 V6 and it was never close to right till they got the balance shafts into it.

GM needs to look at the best and most advanced engines and come up with something that is as good and does not reak of a cop out grafting and mending of a truck or Malibu engine.

To do this right GM and someone else[Lotus, BMW, Ilmore, Cosworth or other independent company] need to partner to develope this jointly. Then they can work to make it in low Volume at a profit. The engine in the flag ship is like a part of a cake. You screw up the frosting the cake no matter how good it is sucks.

what can sometimes be modular is combustion chamber design, and anything that can gain efficiency in manufacture. for example, a 2.5 four and 5.0 eight.thebottomendmightbedifferent,buttheupperscanbethesame.forgivememyspacebarjustquitonme.

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No one complained that Lotus designed the 80's ZR1 and Merc Marine built it.

While a V12 is cool I am not sure if that is the right way to go. GM needs to avoid the mistakes Benz made with the Maybach. I would hate to see GM have to offer the rebates that were offered on the Maybach. $30,000. More is not alway the solution.

I have never been a fan of graftying two engines into one. Not many great engines in history have been created that way. I am not saying they can't do it but it is difficult to get it right vs a pourpose built V12. The Slant 4 Pontiac sounded like a good idea at one time too. So did the 4.3 V6 and it was never close to right till they got the balance shafts into it.

GM needs to look at the best and most advanced engines and come up with something that is as good and does not reak of a cop out grafting and mending of a truck or Malibu engine.

To do this right GM and someone else[Lotus, BMW, Ilmore, Cosworth or other independent company] need to partner to develope this jointly. Then they can work to make it in low Volume at a profit. The engine in the flag ship is like a part of a cake. You screw up the frosting the cake no matter how good it is sucks.

Actually, it'll be a lot easier to get it right by basing it on two Malibu V6es than to design one from the ground up. The combustion chamber, the piston shape, the rods, the valves, the valve angles, the injector locations, all of that will be known, proven quantities.

The current 312hp 3.6 liter V6 making 87.5 hp/liter on 87 octane is pretty much state of the art in terms of mass production engines. No, it is not a high strung Ferrari V12, but you don't want that in a luxury car -- it won't be refined and good luck trying to find an automatic transmission compatible with its 8300 rpm shift point.

Putting the Volt motor-generator on the rear differential along with 1/4 the Volt's battery capacity will bring the V12 to about 22 mpg (Maybe even 23~24 but I am being conservative here) in a heavy 5200 lb car. Doing so also separates the motor from the transmission such that you don't have to worry about finding a tranny that will handle both the V12's 550 lb-ft and the Electric Drive's 273 combined. That is good enough. The overwhelming fraction of Ultra Luxury buyers are not extreme tree huggers. Those that are can buy something else.

As far as perception goes, nobody is ever going to look at the V12 emblem and the 12-potter under the hood and say -- oh, that's a Malibu Engine, or that's two Malibu engines.

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Well if Lotus could jointly develope a engine with GM for use in the Cadillac with Lotus making use in a sports car would make for a good marketing angle.

The real question is with the big development with the new range of cars at Lotus will they get stronger or weaker? Lutz said he feels they have a 60% ability to make it. If Lotus fails in the tough world economy it would look bad on Cadillac if they had ties to them.

On the other hand GM may be able to buy them cheap? Again.

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Actually, it'll be a lot easier to get it right by basing it on two Malibu V6es than to design one from the ground up. The combustion chamber, the piston shape, the rods, the valves, the valve angles, the injector locations, all of that will be known, proven quantities.

The current 312hp 3.6 liter V6 making 87.5 hp/liter on 87 octane is pretty much state of the art in terms of mass production engines. No, it is not a high strung Ferrari V12, but you don't want that in a luxury car -- it won't be refined and good luck trying to find an automatic transmission compatible with its 8300 rpm shift point.

Putting the Volt motor-generator on the rear differential along with 1/4 the Volt's battery capacity will bring the V12 to about 22 mpg (Maybe even 23~24 but I am being conservative here) in a heavy 5200 lb car. Doing so also separates the motor from the transmission such that you don't have to worry about finding a tranny that will handle both the V12's 550 lb-ft and the Electric Drive's 273 combined. That is good enough. The overwhelming fraction of Ultra Luxury buyers are not extreme tree huggers. Those that are can buy something else.

As far as perception goes, nobody is ever going to look at the V12 emblem and the 12-potter under the hood and say -- oh, that's a Malibu Engine, or that's two Malibu engines.

It worked for Aston Martin and the Ford 3.0L V6 source.

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I think a V12 in the 5.5-6.0 liter range (like Merc's) would be better. And add two turbos to it. You want massive low end torque out of this engine. The V8 could be in the 4.0-4.5 liter range.

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