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Ravenfreak13

Early Stages of Decline

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Like GM, views of Toyota range from "I love it" to "They are bland and vanilla"...You must admit that Toyota was climbing to the top of the automotive industry leaving domestic companys in the dust. We saw GM's lowest point in recent years but now it seems that they are finally beginning to pick up the pieces of a weathered company. What does this mean for Toyota?....How far in success can one company go before falling straight to the ground?

We can all say that Toyota will probably never hit rockbottom but what happens when the company suffers a downfall...Can it happen soon? Recently, we have seen that GM's newer innovative models are moving up in sales and GM has recorded a lower loss then usual. Toyota is begining to show some decline. How??? you ask. Look at GM's large SUV turnover days. Ranging from a week to 20 days. Now, how are those large Toyota and Lexus SUV's doing...probably better. Right? WRONG. They are around 34. Even look at the average age of buyers of Toyota's. It has gone up about 5 years in only one year. While GM's Pontiac brand has shown age decreasing over the last year.

Is GM any threat to Toyota? Of course. And the threat is Bob Lutz who is helping repair GM and bringing out impressive models and higher quality products. The one thing holding GM back is media and marketing. While Toyota is spending over $150 million on marketing the all new Camry....GM's newest Camry competition, Saturn's Aura, will probably be lucky to get a third of that. It is not to say that Americans can ignore ads and actually do research about various models...It is that most don't...most go by what they hear. And that has to change if GM wants to expose themselves to people again.

As we watch GM and Toyota...We can see that Toyota is in very early stages of a decline. But we have to hope for GM rising to the competition and taking them down.

Good Luck GM!

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Wishful thinking. Toyota is about to add 1-2% in market share alone from the new San Antonio Tundra factory coupled with added Camry production at Subaru's Indiana plant. There's more on tap too. Meanwhile, GM still has too much capacity for its natural demand. If Delphi doesn't strike this summer watch for more GM incentives by year's end. We all know the ending if Delphi does strike.

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The large Toyota SUVs are older and smaller than the GMT900s, too. Pontiac should be next-to-lowest in average buyer age with Saturn taking the lowest spot.

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The large Toyota SUVs are older and smaller than the GMT900s, too.

That's basically it.

The Highlander has been largely unchanged (appearance-wise) since 2000 with no replacement in sight.

The 4Runner isn't due for replacement yet but is losing ground to newer competitors.

The Sequoia is the same as the Highlander.

The Land Cruiser is just ancient and seriously outdated. It been the same since the 1998 model year save for an engine update in 2005. Also, why would you buy one over a newer, roomier, less-pricey Sequoia?

Their new SUV offerings are flying off the lots (at least the RAV4 is, unsure about FJ).

Another thing is, a lot of Toyota SUVs don't age well, IMO. The Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia and LC look older than they actually are.

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34 days to turnover is not high for any car. Toyota SUVs have been historically good, but not completely mainstream, GM fortunately still owns this market; so sales comparisons are moot point in this category. However, go over to where they have higher chance of making gains, the midsize sedan segment, compact and large truck market, and you will see that in most of these categories, GM risks losing share to Toyota still. Don't start calling the competition done until GM has shown profits and increases that are measurable, unlike Tahoe gains which so far haven't helped the company out of the red [though they are inching closer].

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I'm not saying that Toyota is done...it's just that they cant keep rising forever...I feel like toyotas are losing ground in style and ecitment...and there are slight signs on decline...nothing major...just slight as compared to their "impecable" image in the last few years...and GM is rising...slowly...but surly. Thanks for the opinions guys! Hopefully I'll write a better one soon...I'll stay on Toyota watch.

Edited by Ravenfreak13

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General Motors major weakness is its bland products. I think Lutz is slowly addressing this. As GM's models regain relevance in the market, I believe the customers will come back.

Let's face it: Toyota doesn't build any "gotta have" products either. They are merely enjoying a (unjustified) sterling reputation for quality and the undying devotion of the media. The media will turn on them like a pack of dogs, once the bloom is off the rose.

With all the billboards Toyota is taking out, claiming to be as American as GM, it looks like they are becoming more desperate to hold onto their reputation.

With CR voting all their categories as Asian this year, there is nowhere else to go but down.

Let's see: 825,000 trucks recalled because the front wheels were falling off, Toyota and Honda getting caught LYING about their horsepower numbers, Toyota claiming to outselling Chevrolet, then getting caught having added their Scion numbers to their Toyota numbers - ah, well, eventually somebody in the media will realize we've all been HAD by Japan Inc.!

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Some just don't get it and won't let up.

The next-gen Highlander and RX are being designed as we speak (off of the Camry platform) along with the Sequoia and LX (Tundra platform).

I think Toyota botched the launch of the 4Runner by having that ugly grey cladding on base and sport models during its first year out (2003). It was quickly changed for 2004 but it still had its impact. I have been seeing more of them, especially the slightly updated 2006 models which have a different grille and LED taillights. My parents got the sport model with the damn cladding and I keep telling them to trade up to a newer one.

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The only glaring omissions in Toyota/Lexus lineups is a lack of sports cars, and they are working on these. As mentioned above, a lot of the SUVs and crossovers are going to be replaced within a year or two. There's no reason to think that Toyota's onslaught will taper off.

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The only glaring omissions in Toyota/Lexus lineups is a lack of sports cars, and they are working on these.  As mentioned above, a lot of the SUVs and crossovers are going to be replaced within a year or two.  There's no reason to think that Toyota's onslaught will taper off.

Nope, and it won't. Toyota plans to rework their WHOLE lineup within a few years.

That takes GM years. Good luck with that.

Simply put, GM has to not only match (get get quite close) on quality, and offer something toyota hasn't done-offer a car with a soul.

You only have to look at DCX to realize that it can work..(300c, Charger)

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Well, if GM can catch up with in 3 years, they will be fine...I mean look at what happend in one+ year! They revamped a whole division(saturn). GM reworked their trucks and got great reviews on interior quality and now they need to revamp their small car division...I think 3 years is plenty. As for minivans....well....who knows...

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Well, if GM can catch up with in 3 years, they will be fine...I mean look at what happend in one+ year! They revamped a whole division(saturn). GM reworked their trucks and got great reviews on interior quality and now they need to revamp their small car division...I think 3 years is plenty. As for minivans....well....who knows...

Those things did not happen in one year. Everything that has happened in the past year is a result of work set in motion as long as five years ago. If GM wants to stay at face level with Toyota, they need to be as nimble as Toyota, and that means getting rid of overhead first. If they can deal with the union and legacy costs firsts, then the product will continue to get better. But I dont think we can expect a full turnaround for at least 5-7 years.

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I already know 3 current Camry owners who will not be renewing there payment with the current 07 edition. This was music to my ears. Toyota has also botched up the wonderful new 6 speed automatic tranny in the Camry and Avalon with people writing in with ruff shifting issues and even failures. Add in smaller interior dimensions on the Camry, inferior styling on both, a 14.4 cu.ft. trunk on the Avalon which some compact cars can beat, no door protection molding which is ticking a lot of people off at a local dealer when they find there 35K Avalons with door jams everywhere(Toyota is finally offering a dealer option install to correct this) and higher prices. Sur there will always be the blindly loyal faithful Toyota lovers out there but many are looking for something new and different. Add in Toyotas arrogance and there downfall is inevitable.

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Nope, and it won't. Toyota plans to rework their WHOLE lineup within a few years.

That takes GM years. Good luck with that.

Simply put, GM has to not only match (get get quite close) on quality, and offer something toyota hasn't done-offer a car with a soul.

You only have to look at DCX to realize that it can work..(300c, Charger)

:yes:

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I already know 3 current Camry owners who will not be renewing there payment with the current 07 edition. This was music to my ears. Toyota has also botched up the wonderful new 6 speed automatic tranny in the Camry and Avalon with people writing in with ruff shifting issues and even failures. Add in smaller interior dimensions on the Camry, inferior styling on both, a 14.4 cu.ft. trunk on the Avalon which some compact cars can beat, no door protection molding which is ticking a lot of people off at a local dealer when they find there 35K Avalons with door jams everywhere(Toyota is finally offering a dealer option install to correct this) and higher prices. Sur there will always be the blindly loyal faithful Toyota lovers out there but many are looking for something new and different. Add in Toyotas arrogance and there downfall is inevitable.

:thumbsup:

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I'm not sure what signs people are pointing at to make such a conclusion, but I'll assume it's the normal bleatings of the GM faithful....if only we could wish GM's troubles away!

Toyota is about to up its production capacity in this country by almost 400,000 vehicles, when factoring in the Indiana Subaru plant. They'll revamp their entire line-up in 4 years or less and have no product based on 80's architecture (W-bodies, ahem).

I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. (Helpful hint: When you create these kind of topics, at least try to stay somewhere within the realm of reality. The Kool-Aid must really taste sweet out there!)

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Did I say that Toyota is garbage? NO. I said that they can't stay the best forever. Plus they have become very arrogant lately...and people are going to start to see that.

They are able to dictate conditions, rather than react to them. That's what happens when a superior competitor in a saturated marketplace ascends to the top of actual retail sales....

...they're just beginning to flex their muscles and that's bound to accidentally knock a few things off the shelves...You underestimate how relentless they are. Mistakes will be made (and then quickly corrected...see recent 2 yr. redesign of their 7 pass. Verso mini-minivan as a scary example in europe)

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I'm not sure what signs people are pointing at to make such a conclusion, but I'll assume it's the normal bleatings of the GM faithful....if only we could wish GM's troubles away!

Toyota is about to up its production capacity in this country by almost 400,000 vehicles, when factoring in the Indiana Subaru plant. They'll revamp their entire line-up in 4 years or less and have no product based on 80's architecture (W-bodies, ahem).

I'm pretty sure they'll be fine. (Helpful hint: When you create these kind of topics, at least try to stay somewhere within the realm of reality. The Kool-Aid must really taste sweet out there!)

The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

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The W-body has recieved a new platform twice since it's introduction, it is not an '80s platform. If you say GM has been producing W-bodies since the '80s, well you have to know Toyota has been producing E-bodies (Corolla, Sprinter, Matrix etc) since 1966, V-bodies (Camry, Vista, ES-Series) since the early 80's, the S-body (Crown, GS-Series) since 1955, the J-body Toyota truck has been around since 1951, the T-body (Corona, Carina, Allion, Avensis, tC etc.) since 1957, and the P-body (Publica, Starlet, Echo, Yaris) has been produced since 1961. Like the W-body these are like the proverbial axe - over the years it may have recieved 5 new handles and a new head, but it's still the "same axe".

:yes:

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