Mercedez Benz News Diamler's Chairman Says A Mercedes-Benz S-Class Pullman Is In The Cards

[William Maley]

William Maley

Staff Writer - CheersandGears.com

June 27, 2013

Since the departure of Maybach, there has been a number of questions and rumors concerning if the next-generation S-Class would take on the role of being the ultra luxury vehicle. In a interview with Autocar, Diamler Chairman Dieter Zetsche said Mercedes-Benz has a plan.

“We will continue in the market segment above €200,000. It is important that Mercedes-Benz is represented. We have tradition at this level. said Zetsche. “We see a chance to extend our leadership at the top end of the luxury car market. We plan to extend the number of models, and a Pullman is included in those plans.”

Autocar speculates that the new Pullman will use a extra long-wheelbase S-Class as a base and add a number of luxury touches.

Source: Autocar

William Maley is a staff writer for Cheers & Gears. He can be reached at [email protected] or you can follow him on twitter at @realmudmonster.

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[David]

This only makes sense that they would come up with something else. Course it is still a limited small market, but then MB has the stigma to pull it off and offer a Maybach size and style S series or as they say Pullman version. Be interesting to see what it is.

[smk4565]

They'll extend the S-class to about 213 inches long, there was already a prototype being tested. They can definitely up the level of luxury with silk and cashmere fabrics, that was rumored also, and they have the V12 and all the engineering bits they need. The S-class has more technology in it than a Rolls or Bentley, and they can beat them in performance, they just need to make the rear seat area like a private jet. 3rd world dictators love Mercedes also, they'll buy them up fast.

[balthazar]

merecedes already tried the market with a thinly-veiled stretched s-class, it was a fantastic flop they just pulled from the market. "Interesting to see what it is" - we've already seen their effort here... and the rear seat was already 'like a jet'. It needs to be a fresh, ground-up car, not just another badge job with a hopped-up interior and a stolen pedigree.

[smk4565]

Maybach wasn't an S-class. The S-class always succeeds, it has been #1 in it's segment for 40 years. This thing will be awesome, they'll probably only build 1,000 a year world wide and they'll have a waiting list for it.

[balthazar]

^ same platform (stretched), same engines; you're kidding yourself. Unfortunately, they made it look like a melted edition of a 10-yr old s-class, with a sappy 1970's 2-tone paint job.

Or maybe it was simply the ancient 5-spd automatic that torpedoed it... you know how you like to attribute an entire car's market performance on a singular feature, so that must be it.

Any way you color it, a flop. And now they're going to try and pass off maybach 2.0.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why not Z-Class?

Oh, and saying it's been the best selling for 40 years is like suggesting that Crown Vic is the best selling full size car for 20 years. Technically correct, intellectually dishonest.

[smk4565]

The Crown Vic was a fleet car that no one tried to go after either, and now it is gone. Lexus, VW/Audi, and BMW have spent billions on big luxury sedans, no one can knock it off the throne. The 3-series and the S-class dominate their segment globally more than any other cars.

[balthazar]

Of course, the Crown Vic & it's trim variants had something close to a 60-yr run (or 20-some years more than the s-class). And in that it generated huge volumes over it's lifespan, absolutely was that segment 'gone after' by others. The delicious (yet unpopular with da fanbois) irony here is, mercedes is likewise a heavy fleet brand pushing volume... or MUCH like the Crown Vic in that respect.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Crown Vic was a fleet car that no one tried to go after either, and now it is gone. Lexus, VW/Audi, and BMW have spent billions on big luxury sedans, no one can knock it off the throne. The 3-series and the S-class dominate their segment globally more than any other cars.

The S-Class is a fleet car in the rest of the world outside of North America. It's main advantage is that it can be used a taxi or limousine simply by changing the paint. At least Ford bothered to put a different grill and tail lights on their limos.

[smk4565]

The Crown Vic was a fleet car that no one tried to go after either, and now it is gone. Lexus, VW/Audi, and BMW have spent billions on big luxury sedans, no one can knock it off the throne. The 3-series and the S-class dominate their segment globally more than any other cars.

The S-Class is a fleet car in the rest of the world outside of North America. It's main advantage is that it can be used a taxi or limousine simply by changing the paint. At least Ford bothered to put a different grill and tail lights on their limos.

Yet it is still the #1 selling large luxury car in the world, and has a higher price point than the 7-series, A8, XJ, or LS460. And Cadillac, Acura, and Infiniti don't even try to compete with it. Mercedes got 12,000 orders in the first month since the reveal of the 2014 model, looks like another generation of dominance.

[balthazar]

^ It's HEAVILY discounted and HEAVILY fleeted, that's where the volume comes from, not retail demand.

[Drew Dowdell]

The Crown Vic was a fleet car that no one tried to go after either, and now it is gone. Lexus, VW/Audi, and BMW have spent billions on big luxury sedans, no one can knock it off the throne. The 3-series and the S-class dominate their segment globally more than any other cars.

The S-Class is a fleet car in the rest of the world outside of North America. It's main advantage is that it can be used a taxi or limousine simply by changing the paint. At least Ford bothered to put a different grill and tail lights on their limos.

Yet it is still the #1 selling large luxury car in the world, and has a higher price point than the 7-series, A8, XJ, or LS460. And Cadillac, Acura, and Infiniti don't even try to compete with it. Mercedes got 12,000 orders in the first month since the reveal of the 2014 model, looks like another generation of dominance.

It maintains that title by having heavily subsidized leases, $15k off sticker, and fleeting to limo/rental/taxi companies. Look, you can even pick up an E-Class for $69 a day.

[David]

wow, that is pretty amazing.

When I was last in Copenhagen, I was shocked at how many S class are used as taxi's and personal private cars. I asked about it and found out that not only are they heavily discounted but the gov. there allows you to write off the purchase price over a two year period of time as long as you drive 100K kilometers per year in the car. People in the business of driving others keep their auto's as diesel and get a new one every two years due to the write off and heavy discounts.

To me, this has greatly diminished the S & E class versions to Fleet Whores who are no better than the Ford Crown Vic's or any other car that is fleeted out and used for many other purposes than just a high end luxury car.

It would be great if there was a specific luxury model of Cadillac that was only built for fleet purposes, had auto opening and closing rear doors like the taxi's and personal private limos in Asia. I believe GM could really clean up on a model like this. It could be built off the same base platform as the CTS but have a totally different nose and rear end to clearly identify it as the fleet only model.

[ZL-1]

It would be great if there was a specific luxury model of Cadillac that was only built for fleet purposes, had auto opening and closing rear doors like the taxi's and personal private limos in Asia. I believe GM could really clean up on a model like this. It could be built off the same base platform as the CTS but have a totally different nose and rear end to clearly identify it as the fleet only model.

I think Cadillac should use the XTS for that purpose, and lead retail costumers to the Impala and the LaCrosse if they want FWD/AWD and to the CTS if they want RWD/AWD.

[Z-06]

One of my friends got a lemoned BMW 550i so he was pushed into an S class (both MB and BMW share same dealership). The list price of the car was $109,000; he got it for $92,500. So much for the S klasse's value leadership.

[smk4565]

If Mercedes is so ripe for the picking, maybe Cadillac should put their whole line up for sale in Europe and take them out.

[balthazar]

Mercedes got 12,000 orders in the first month since the reveal of the 2014 model, looks like another generation of dominance.

Yet they only moved 841 of the current s-class last month (and at heavy discounts).

[Robert Hall]

Mercedes got 12,000 orders in the first month since the reveal of the 2014 model, looks like another generation of dominance.

Yet they only moved 841 of the current s-class last month (and at heavy discounts).

Last year of the current generation, people are waiting for the new one..

[balthazar]

no way, it's the BESSTESTEST!

Still, everyone knows those 'orders' don't all pan out. smk makes it look like MB is going to move 144K s-classes (vs. even 2012's 5000-some units).

It's just sad that the supposed measure of the 'best lux sedan' is sheer volume...

[smk4565]

S-class sold over 91,000 in 2007. They can potentially sell 100,000 in 1 year, the W126 S-class sold over 825,000 from 1981-1990, that is about 80,000 per year for a decade. It doesn't just win in volume either, it has more status/appeal than an A8 or 7-series, higher price point, more power, better gas mileage, more technology. The S-class won world green car of the year a couple years ago, no other car in that segment has won that. When the S-class convertible comes out, another advantage, as there is no A8 or 7-series convertible.

[Drew Dowdell]

no way, it's the BESSTESTEST!

Still, everyone knows those 'orders' don't all pan out. smk makes it look like MB is going to move 144K s-classes (vs. even 2012's 5000-some units).

It's just sad that the supposed measure of the 'best lux sedan' is sheer volume...

Carbon Motors had a whole buncha orders too... look how well that turned out.

[ZL-1]

S-class sold over 91,000 in 2007. They can potentially sell 100,000 in 1 year, the W126 S-class sold over 825,000 from 1981-1990, that is about 80,000 per year for a decade. It doesn't just win in volume either, it has more status/appeal than an A8 or 7-series, higher price point, more power, better gas mileage, more technology. The S-class won world green car of the year a couple years ago, no other car in that segment has won that. When the S-class convertible comes out, another advantage, as there is no A8 or 7-series convertible.

Yep. People don't seem to realize that even though you do find quite a few S-Class taxis in Germany, the model has a huge luxury image that makes people spend EUR 20K to EUR 30K in optional equipment alone in many of the cars sold to private costumers...

Edited July 3, 2013 by ZL-1

[balthazar]

>>"private consumers<<"

That's a strict minority, as fleet sales in Germany at least far outstrip retail sales. They're just not sought by private consumers much- maybe it's a budgetary thing. I imagine elsewhere in EUR it is much the same story. We here in NA are left with the smoke & mirrors facade of 'uber lux' to the point we can't imagine what the rest of the world sees.

I really would like to learn the average option addition dollar amount is on the s-class in the U.S., since the average transaction price is what- 8K below base MSRP?
You look at the option list in the s-class and there are numerous options in the multi-thousand dollar range. This would be an eyeopening auto factoid & should be relatively easy to get hold of...

Back to mercedes.... seems the top of their portfolio is a bit of a mess. They have the ubitquitous, generic s-class, then the futuristic CLS (which should have been the last s-class, tho obviously the more truck-like current S is better suited to fleet taxi use), then the debacle of the failed maybach, now maybach 2.0- the pullman. That's 3 cars based on the same platform in the span of a few years. In the recent wings are the freakshow of the F700 (boy, does mercedes like old Ford truck monikers), and the chunky throwback of the 'Ocean'. That's a lot of wild gesturing & numerous design languages. Tho the s-class never raised the design bar for anyone, at least it shambled forward gen-to-gen, but that shambling has slowed to a crawl with the 2014.

Smart managers at Daimler would realize the s- is all they have a business case for, and there is no demand for a higher sedan to the point of making it self-sustaining. Instead, the management at Daimler has but one goal- whore, whore, whore the brand out for ultimate sales.

Edited July 3, 2013 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

If they can only get fleet in Germany, they're not going to do better on retail sales elsewhere in Europe. Germany has the money... no one else does.

[balthazar]

^ Good point. Trying to recall the number for Germany, I believe it was 65% non-retail (overall for the brand). So in some countries I imagine the numbers might reach... who know; 90% fleet or more?

[smk4565]

CLS is built on an E-class chassis. It has nothing to do with the S-class.

There isn't an automaker out there that wouldn't trade their flagship car for the S-class and the revenue and profit that comes with it.

If Euro fleet sales were so damaging to Mercedes, Audi and BMW, why can't Cadillac, Lexus or Infiniti sell cars there. Regardless of what Mercedes does, Europeans will buy them, and keep buying them over American or Japanese imports.

[balthazar]

^ BECAUSE mercedees has the fleet market tied up and the retail market isn't worth much! You think the EUR fleet sales don't hurt, but mercedes is only circa 35% retail- you don't see any possible connection??? What would their profit/revenue be if the numbers were switched around?? Maybe daimler wouldn't have to badge a cargo van as a mercedees to bolster profits and maybe they wouldn't have to build soo many SUVs.

Imports don't sell well in EUR because there are too many automotive bigots in that market.

BTW- I wasn't talking about the chassis, but the DESIGN of the CLS. Really weird to have the slinkiest, more futuristic sedan not be your flagship. But like I said; the livery market...
What I want to know is, IF this 'pullman' comes to pass under the mercedes logo, does that mean the s-class gets demoted from it's flagship position?

Edited July 4, 2013 by balthazar

[Drew Dowdell]

CLS is built on an E-class chassis. It has nothing to do with the S-class.

There isn't an automaker out there that wouldn't trade their flagship car for the S-class and the revenue and profit that comes with it.

If Euro fleet sales were so damaging to Mercedes, Audi and BMW, why can't Cadillac, Lexus or Infiniti sell cars there. Regardless of what Mercedes does, Europeans will buy them, and keep buying them over American or Japanese imports.

Cadillac could rebadge the S-Class as their own and the Germans STILL wouldn't buy it. With the exception of Ford, cars from brands not from that Continent are virtually non-existant there. The only cars Ford sells there are the ones engineered and built in Europe because Germany has adopted Ford of Germany as one of its own. Toyota and Nissan haven't been able to make a dent in ANY segment in Europe much less the super lux segment. Only through Opel and Fiat/Lancia do GM and Chrysler stand a chance there.

[Drew Dowdell]

Imports don't sell well in EUR because there are too many automotive bigots in that market.

BTW- I wasn't talking about the chassis, but the DESIGN of the CLS. Really weird to have the slinkiest, more futuristic sedan not be your flagship. But like I said; the livery market...

What I want to know is, IF this 'pullman' comes to pass under the mercedes logo, does that mean the s-class gets demoted from it's flagship position?

I think Pullman will be a trim level. It would translate to Brougham here. Do you want a Fleetwood or a Fleetwood Brougham? Do you want an S-Class or and S-Class Pullman?

I'm kinda sad that an American company didn't snag that name to use on their cars. It is such an American name.

[balthazar]

Possibly, but I wonder how much MB thinks it can tack on for a trim level, yet still claim they are competing with RR?

They took a HUGE hit with the maybach failure.

Agreed RE the Pullman name. Check it out tho : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pullman_automobile

[Z-06]

So Pullman should sue Mercedes for using Pullman name.

[balthazar]

Why not; Maybach sued mercedes....

[Delta Force79]

I can't help but think of this scene when reading through SMK's posts.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Delta Force79

[Guest potluck]

Maybe Mecerdes should call it Chancellor

[smk4565]

Pullman will be an extended length trim level. If you took an S600, you are already over $150,000. Making it longer, with more stuff, and fancier materials on the inside will let them go over 200k. They have sold a $200k S-class for the past 7 years, they sell an armored S-class limo for over $1 million and have a waiting list for that. They can make this car custom order, and they'll be fine. Mercedes and BMW each make over $4,000 profit per car, these guys know what they are doing. And Maybach failed, but they at least took a chance, the gamble didn't pay off, but cars like the SLR McLaren and SLS AMG did pay off, as did the Grosser Mercedes of the 1960s and 70s.

[Z-06]

They have sold a $200k S-class for the past 7 years, they sell an armored S-class limo for over $1 million and have a waiting list for that. They can make this car custom order, and they'll be fine. Mercedes and BMW each make over $4,000 profit per car, these guys know what they are doing. And Maybach failed, but they at least took a chance, the gamble didn't pay off, but cars like the SLR McLaren and SLS AMG did pay off, as did the Grosser Mercedes of the 1960s and 70s.

Nothing compares to The BEAST. GM wins again. Next!!!

[David]

Why are we wasting time talking about an over priced, over rated german car that has yet to be in the JD powers quality survey in even the last 10 years.

Bleeding edge technology, maybe, but quality? NOPE Missed again! Over Rated Junk.