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Cue the Outrage, BMW 7Series to Employ 4Cylinder... But Its not a Cadillac So Its OK


Cmicasa the Great

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The upcoming BMW 7 Series G11 has officially been teased by BMW and its set to be introduced to the world on June 10.
The 750Li moniker on the back means that this car has a long wheelbase configuration and a V8 Twin-Turbo engine. Oh, and with the help of its modular platform, the engine line-up will expand from 4-cylinders all the way to 12-cylinders. 
 
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A 4-cylinder in a 7-series is going to be horrible, what are they going to do, make a 720i?  Unless the turbo 4 is part of a plug-in hybrid package, with 350-380 hp, something similar to what the i8 does.   The V12 may produce 600 hp, so I guess they are going after AMG finally.  The 7-series hasn't looked good since like 1999, so I am curious to see how this one looks.  They are also using carbon fiber in the construction, so I am curious to see how much.

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Missing something about your comment Smokey... the 760i already has a 535-hp, 6.0L twin-turbo V-12. With that power it should essentially already be called "M7." 

 

 

In other places there was such idiotic outrage, usually from people who had not one iota of chance of ACTUALLY buying one without a lottery hit, when the CT6 was announced with a 4cylinder as an OPTION no less. Of course from what it seems like the CT6's 4 cylinder option will be mated to a hybrid drive line.., and even if not.. a 2.0L Turbo kicking out 270HP and pushing a car that is lighter than the next sized down car the very same 2.0L is in seems to be a non-issue. The back-pedaling I have heard from others, on other sites about BMW doing is hilarious. The excuses for the Germans and Japanese never get tired it seems. 

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The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

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The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

 

Oh and MB is only selling the Plug-In Hybrid S-Class in California and a couple other states.... it will have roughly the same distribution as the Chevrolet Spark EV.  Real "brave". 

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A 4-cylinder in a 7-series is going to be horrible, what are they going to do, make a 720i?  Unless the turbo 4 is part of a plug-in hybrid package, with 350-380 hp, something similar to what the i8 does.   The V12 may produce 600 hp, so I guess they are going after AMG finally.  The 7-series hasn't looked good since like 1999, so I am curious to see how this one looks.  They are also using carbon fiber in the construction, so I am curious to see how much.

Even in 1999, it was butt ugly.  James Bond himself could not make it look good. It was...square. Not only in style and design...but in personality too. Yuck.

To boot, Q even dialed in the squareness of the E38 by making James Bond's 7 Series remote controlled.....OOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Real high tech and jaw dropping that is....all controlled by a phone....OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!  :mind-blowing:

 

Considering that Michael Knight had a more advanced Trans Am   :mullet: ( OK...wrong F-Body...this one is the Chevy one)  back  in the 1980s doing exactly what that mid 1990s James Bond 7 Series did...I was hardly impressed with it...One sexy Bimmer from that era would be the Z8...now THAT was a Bond car...

NO...not the little crappy one called the Z3...I said Z8... :yes:

 

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As far as the 4 cylinder thing going in a 7 Series...we should all get used to that kind of thing...CAFE is what is making automakers do this...

Reminds me of the 1980s all over again in that GM 305 V8s barely made 180 HP with all that low compression necessity and catalytic converter BS was engineered into these motors because CAFE laws...not quite the same thing but the same thing...

 

180 HP pushing a 4000 lbs Chevy Caprice is hardly very sporty...even if V8...

Edited by oldshurst442
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The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

 

Oh and MB is only selling the Plug-In Hybrid S-Class in California and a couple other states.... it will have roughly the same distribution as the Chevrolet Spark EV.  Real "brave". 

 

I am sure it will expand in time as production ramps up.  It should because you only lose 0.4 seconds on 0-60 time with the hybrid, but have 18 miles of electric drive and the reduced fuel consumption, so it is a pretty sweet powertrain choice.

 

I think the squared off 7-series of 97-99 was the only one that looked aggressive.  All the other generations were too rounded off and oddly proportioned.

 

Interesting note on the Z8.  Those sell for about $350,000 now, they are appreciating like crazy.

Edited by smk4565
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I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

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I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

 

The reason people are talking about it is because of all the moaning and complaining from the German-Car humpers that the Cadillac CT6 will come in 2.0T base.   It's just more of the double standards that the German fanbois play. 

 

The CT6 is the size of a 740i but weighs the same as a 335i xDrive.   So even though the 7-Series dropped weight, the CT6 still weighs less. 

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I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

 

The reason people are talking about it is because of all the moaning and complaining from the German-Car humpers that the Cadillac CT6 will come in 2.0T base.   It's just more of the double standards that the German fanbois play. 

 

The CT6 is the size of a 740i but weighs the same as a 335i xDrive.   So even though the 7-Series dropped weight, the CT6 still weighs less. 

 

 

 

Well, I haven't seen any Euro fanboys, so Idk who he is targeting. I understand the GT6 weighs less than the 5 Series. But like I said, the current 5 Series is already not underpowered in N20 guise. After an inevitable power bump, the new 7 won't be 'horrible' with an I4 by any means.

 

I don't think any of these cars should be offered with I4 non-hybrid drivetrains, but it must be done. Crying about it does nothing. 

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A turbo 4 in any full size luxury sedan is terrible.  Turbo 4s are in entry lux sedans and family sedans, why would you want that in a full size car.   As I put earlier, the only way to pass a turbo 4 as acceptable is if you had 100-150 hp electric motor packaged with it so you can sell the efficiency aspect of it, but still have over 350 hp and torque, which for a base model is okay.    But a flagship sedan should have over 400 hp.

 

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  Lets see what the production models weigh and actually performance test data.

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Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

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We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

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We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

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We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

 

 

Well if you prefer to look at it that way, the CT6 only weighs about 183lbs more than an ATS 2.0T RWD (3373lbs)... a car that is already one of the lightest in it's class.  The difference in weight between an ATS and a CT6 is..... me.... after a generous helping of chocolate cake. 

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What does a CT6 3.0 TT with all wheel drive, 4 power heated/cooled seats, the 34 speaker stereo, panoramic glass roof, tray tables, dvd screens, etc weigh?  All that stuff adds weight.  Car and Driver tested a CTS 2.0t rear drive that was 3731 lbs, 64 less than that is 3677.  All wheel drive adds 150-200 lbs plus all the luxury goodies, bigger engine, and the weight will rise.

 

The S-class can hammer all these cars on power though.  Jaguar and Audi tried the aluminum body thing, BMW is getting the 7-series back down in weight, that is all well in good.  But if you put a small engine in, then you don't have an advantage.   It is like saying the Miata is 800 lbs lighter than a Corvette, doesn't matter the Corvette kills it on power.  

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We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

 

 

Well if you prefer to look at it that way, the CT6 only weighs about 183lbs more than an ATS 2.0T RWD (3373lbs)... a car that is already one of the lightest in it's class.  The difference in weight between an ATS and a CT6 is..... me.... after a generous helping of chocolate cake. 

 

:wub:  Love Chocolate Cake with Red Wine! :P

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What does a CT6 3.0 TT with all wheel drive, 4 power heated/cooled seats, the 34 speaker stereo, panoramic glass roof, tray tables, dvd screens, etc weigh?  All that stuff adds weight.  Car and Driver tested a CTS 2.0t rear drive that was 3731 lbs, 64 less than that is 3677.  All wheel drive adds 150-200 lbs plus all the luxury goodies, bigger engine, and the weight will rise.

 

The S-class can hammer all these cars on power though.  Jaguar and Audi tried the aluminum body thing, BMW is getting the 7-series back down in weight, that is all well in good.  But if you put a small engine in, then you don't have an advantage.   It is like saying the Miata is 800 lbs lighter than a Corvette, doesn't matter the Corvette kills it on power.  

 

And when you add all the goodies to the other cars, the weight rises there too... what's your point?  A 550i xDrive loaded with options weighs more than a 528i base.  

 

Getting the base chassis down in weight is important.  It does allow for a lower power engine to achieve the same performance and it allows the higher power engines to achieve better performance.  All the coming TTV8 from Cadillac has to do is match the S-Class 4.7TT and it will have a significant advantage over the Benz due to the S-Class' crushing curb weight. 

 

In fact, Benz may find themselves in a bit of a pinch perception wise if the CT6 and 7-series hit their weight goals. Both of those cars would be much faster than the S-Class with the same or possibly less horsepower. 

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The S-class has too much power for the other guys to beat with 4 and 6 cylinder engines.  An S550 does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, pretty quick for a big car, and they have faster models.   A lighter weight 7-series with a 600 hp V12 could be a threat, but I doubt they put more hp in the 7-series than a Rolls-Royce, so the V12 will probably have like 540 hp.  One has to wonder though what the quest for light weight will do to ride quality or sound deadening.   Because in this segment luxury still comes first, and there is a image thing with a 4 or even V6, they seem common.  Just like a V12 is a status symbol because it is so rare and high end.

Edited by smk4565
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I think even with immense weight loss or best in class curb weights and lbs/hp, Cadillac's gotta continue to walk the walk instead of riding the talk.

 

Like I've said before here, I'll believe it when I see it. If the CT6 is a serial-killer adept at slaying 7 Series and S-Classes; well I want to see it happen. 

 

Until then, no one in this segment (buyers) cares about weight unless Cadillac manages to make it important for the sake of performance and prestige, not CAFE. Heck, Bentley and Rolls-Royce engineers keep looking for more ways to make their cars EVEN heavier and more sublime.

 

So you're going to tell me, that a fledgling luxury brand, right about to find its place in the sun, is somehow going to change an over three decade's game overnight with one CT6?

 

And this is in spite of my outright love of Cadillac and everything they've been doing. I love the CTS. I love the ATS-V. I love everything Cadillac right now, but I'm a realist.

 

I think S-Class and 7 Series owners will scoff at the CT6 and say it's made out of an American beer can, and point to their magic body control and carbon fibre and overpriced monroney stickers, and you know what, I'd agree with them. It doesn't matter how fast a CT6 goes around the corners or in a straight line, when the S-Class dominates as a luxury car, not a sporty car. Everyone else falls in line. I'm not skeptical of Cadillac, but of buyer's willingness to try Cadillac. 

Edited by Suaviloquent
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Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

 

Underrated or not the idea of its OK to put a 4cylinder in a Euro, but blasphemy to do it in an American Luxo is BULL$h!. Its actually no different than the BS that has been ignored about the Audi A8 coming in FWD config since forever in Europe, but them only offering it in AWD to fool the Car  "Enthusiasts" who despite all their worldly car knowledge always are oblivious to this. 

 

 

And no harm, but can U post a link to where the 528i was faster than the CTS2.0??? 

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Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

 

Underrated or not the idea of its OK to put a 4cylinder in a Euro, but blasphemy to do it in an American Luxo is BULL$h!. Its actually no different than the BS that has been ignored about the Audi A8 coming in FWD config since forever in Europe, but them only offering it in AWD to fool the Car  "Enthusiasts" who despite all their worldly car knowledge always are oblivious to this. 

 

 

And no harm, but can U post a link to where the 528i was faster than the CTS2.0??? 

 

 

Casa, I don't like the double standard either, it's all bunk and nonsense. As for posting links, I'm lazy, but I think everyone knows that BMW and Audi especially love to drastically underrate their engines. I think with the 8 Speed, the CTS will be even with the 528i. Most tests had the 528i at about 5.8 to 6 Seconds range while the CTS had a 6.0 to 6.3 seconds 0-60 range. All of it due to gearing. But.... here's the but... the Cadillac is lighter. And I'm just putting it out there; but I really couldn't care about 0.1 second differences myself. I'd get the Caddy every day, all day; every time, all the time. Just so you know.

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