Cue the Outrage, BMW 7Series to Employ 4Cylinder... But Its not a Cadillac So Its OK

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

The upcoming BMW 7 Series G11 has officially been teased by BMW and its set to be introduced to the world on June 10.

The 750Li moniker on the back means that this car has a long wheelbase configuration and a V8 Twin-Turbo engine. Oh, and with the help of its modular platform, the engine line-up will expand from 4-cylinders all the way to 12-cylinders. 

 

More at: CarsScoop

[El Kabong]

Sounds like BMW is following Cadillac's lead *L* Gotta love the new normal.

[smk4565]

A 4-cylinder in a 7-series is going to be horrible, what are they going to do, make a 720i?  Unless the turbo 4 is part of a plug-in hybrid package, with 350-380 hp, something similar to what the i8 does.   The V12 may produce 600 hp, so I guess they are going after AMG finally.  The 7-series hasn't looked good since like 1999, so I am curious to see how this one looks.  They are also using carbon fiber in the construction, so I am curious to see how much.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Missing something about your comment Smokey... the 760i already has a 535-hp, 6.0L twin-turbo V-12. With that power it should essentially already be called "M7." 

 

 

In other places there was such idiotic outrage, usually from people who had not one iota of chance of ACTUALLY buying one without a lottery hit, when the CT6 was announced with a 4cylinder as an OPTION no less. Of course from what it seems like the CT6's 4 cylinder option will be mated to a hybrid drive line.., and even if not.. a 2.0L Turbo kicking out 270HP and pushing a car that is lighter than the next sized down car the very same 2.0L is in seems to be a non-issue. The back-pedaling I have heard from others, on other sites about BMW doing is hilarious. The excuses for the Germans and Japanese never get tired it seems. 

[smk4565]

The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

[Drew Dowdell]

The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

 

Oh and MB is only selling the Plug-In Hybrid S-Class in California and a couple other states.... it will have roughly the same distribution as the Chevrolet Spark EV.  Real "brave". 

[oldshurst442]

A 4-cylinder in a 7-series is going to be horrible, what are they going to do, make a 720i?  Unless the turbo 4 is part of a plug-in hybrid package, with 350-380 hp, something similar to what the i8 does.   The V12 may produce 600 hp, so I guess they are going after AMG finally.  The 7-series hasn't looked good since like 1999, so I am curious to see how this one looks.  They are also using carbon fiber in the construction, so I am curious to see how much.

Even in 1999, it was butt ugly.  James Bond himself could not make it look good. It was...square. Not only in style and design...but in personality too. Yuck.

To boot, Q even dialed in the squareness of the E38 by making James Bond's 7 Series remote controlled.....OOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Real high tech and jaw dropping that is....all controlled by a phone....OOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! 

 

Considering that Michael Knight had a more advanced Trans Am   ( OK...wrong F-Body...this one is the Chevy one)  back  in the 1980s doing exactly what that mid 1990s James Bond 7 Series did...I was hardly impressed with it...One sexy Bimmer from that era would be the Z8...now THAT was a Bond car...

NO...not the little crappy one called the Z3...I said Z8...

 

 

 

As far as the 4 cylinder thing going in a 7 Series...we should all get used to that kind of thing...CAFE is what is making automakers do this...

Reminds me of the 1980s all over again in that GM 305 V8s barely made 180 HP with all that low compression necessity and catalytic converter BS was engineered into these motors because CAFE laws...not quite the same thing but the same thing...

 

180 HP pushing a 4000 lbs Chevy Caprice is hardly very sporty...even if V8...

Edited June 3, 2015 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

 

The 760Li has 553 lb-ft of torque, not even S600 level, let alone S65.  Plus the 760 doesn't have sports suspension or carbon brakes or any of the racy stuff an M5 would have.  There is rumor that they will do an M7 though.  But they have been chasing the S-class since 1977 when the first 7-series came out, they haven't caught up yet.

 

Interestingly enough, the S-class plug in hybrid costs the same as the V8 model.  None of the other guys will have the guts to make a plug-in hybrid the cheapest model.

 

Oh and MB is only selling the Plug-In Hybrid S-Class in California and a couple other states.... it will have roughly the same distribution as the Chevrolet Spark EV.  Real "brave". 

 

I am sure it will expand in time as production ramps up.  It should because you only lose 0.4 seconds on 0-60 time with the hybrid, but have 18 miles of electric drive and the reduced fuel consumption, so it is a pretty sweet powertrain choice.

 

I think the squared off 7-series of 97-99 was the only one that looked aggressive.  All the other generations were too rounded off and oddly proportioned.

 

Interesting note on the Z8.  Those sell for about $350,000 now, they are appreciating like crazy.

Edited June 3, 2015 by smk4565

[Frisky Dingo]

I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

[Drew Dowdell]

I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

 

The reason people are talking about it is because of all the moaning and complaining from the German-Car humpers that the Cadillac CT6 will come in 2.0T base.   It's just more of the double standards that the German fanbois play. 

 

The CT6 is the size of a 740i but weighs the same as a 335i xDrive.   So even though the 7-Series dropped weight, the CT6 still weighs less. 

[Frisky Dingo]

 

I'm not sure why this is a surprise to anyone. With ever-tightening emissions and MPG targets, this is inevitable. We probably won't see this in the States.

 

Also, to those who said an I4 would be terrible in a 7 Series- the new car is going to weigh what the current 5 Series weighs. And the 528i is not a slow car as it is. And that's assuming the 7 Series doesn't see a power bump in I4 guise.

 

Also again, the E38 7 Series is one of the best looking sport/lux sedans of all time.

 

The reason people are talking about it is because of all the moaning and complaining from the German-Car humpers that the Cadillac CT6 will come in 2.0T base.   It's just more of the double standards that the German fanbois play. 

 

The CT6 is the size of a 740i but weighs the same as a 335i xDrive.   So even though the 7-Series dropped weight, the CT6 still weighs less. 

 

 

 

Well, I haven't seen any Euro fanboys, so Idk who he is targeting. I understand the GT6 weighs less than the 5 Series. But like I said, the current 5 Series is already not underpowered in N20 guise. After an inevitable power bump, the new 7 won't be 'horrible' with an I4 by any means.

 

I don't think any of these cars should be offered with I4 non-hybrid drivetrains, but it must be done. Crying about it does nothing. 

[Drew Dowdell]

Oh they're here... 

[smk4565]

A turbo 4 in any full size luxury sedan is terrible.  Turbo 4s are in entry lux sedans and family sedans, why would you want that in a full size car.   As I put earlier, the only way to pass a turbo 4 as acceptable is if you had 100-150 hp electric motor packaged with it so you can sell the efficiency aspect of it, but still have over 350 hp and torque, which for a base model is okay.    But a flagship sedan should have over 400 hp.

 

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  Lets see what the production models weigh and actually performance test data.

[Suaviloquent]

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

[Drew Dowdell]

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

[Suaviloquent]

 

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

 

 

Well if you prefer to look at it that way, the CT6 only weighs about 183lbs more than an ATS 2.0T RWD (3373lbs)... a car that is already one of the lightest in it's class.  The difference in weight between an ATS and a CT6 is..... me.... after a generous helping of chocolate cake. 

[smk4565]

What does a CT6 3.0 TT with all wheel drive, 4 power heated/cooled seats, the 34 speaker stereo, panoramic glass roof, tray tables, dvd screens, etc weigh?  All that stuff adds weight.  Car and Driver tested a CTS 2.0t rear drive that was 3731 lbs, 64 less than that is 3677.  All wheel drive adds 150-200 lbs plus all the luxury goodies, bigger engine, and the weight will rise.

 

The S-class can hammer all these cars on power though.  Jaguar and Audi tried the aluminum body thing, BMW is getting the 7-series back down in weight, that is all well in good.  But if you put a small engine in, then you don't have an advantage.   It is like saying the Miata is 800 lbs lighter than a Corvette, doesn't matter the Corvette kills it on power.  

[G. David Felt]

 

 

 

We also don't know what the CT6 actually weighs.  

 

64 lbs lighter than a CTS 2.0T RWD. 

 

So, by the book - 3556

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

BMW is dropping from 7-series weight to 5-series weight, but the CT6 is ATS AWD weight.... it dropped two size classes. 

 

 

A fact that a BMW owner looking to trade in and upgrade really wouldn't care about. As for Cadillac, good on them.  But you are comparing a AWD ATS to a RWD CT6. Not exactly matching. It would be exactly two segments lower if it was a AWD CT6 weight quoted above. I imagine 34 speakers isn't included in that number.

 

 

Well if you prefer to look at it that way, the CT6 only weighs about 183lbs more than an ATS 2.0T RWD (3373lbs)... a car that is already one of the lightest in it's class.  The difference in weight between an ATS and a CT6 is..... me.... after a generous helping of chocolate cake. 

 

 Love Chocolate Cake with Red Wine!

[Drew Dowdell]

What does a CT6 3.0 TT with all wheel drive, 4 power heated/cooled seats, the 34 speaker stereo, panoramic glass roof, tray tables, dvd screens, etc weigh?  All that stuff adds weight.  Car and Driver tested a CTS 2.0t rear drive that was 3731 lbs, 64 less than that is 3677.  All wheel drive adds 150-200 lbs plus all the luxury goodies, bigger engine, and the weight will rise.

 

The S-class can hammer all these cars on power though.  Jaguar and Audi tried the aluminum body thing, BMW is getting the 7-series back down in weight, that is all well in good.  But if you put a small engine in, then you don't have an advantage.   It is like saying the Miata is 800 lbs lighter than a Corvette, doesn't matter the Corvette kills it on power.  

 

And when you add all the goodies to the other cars, the weight rises there too... what's your point?  A 550i xDrive loaded with options weighs more than a 528i base.  

 

Getting the base chassis down in weight is important.  It does allow for a lower power engine to achieve the same performance and it allows the higher power engines to achieve better performance.  All the coming TTV8 from Cadillac has to do is match the S-Class 4.7TT and it will have a significant advantage over the Benz due to the S-Class' crushing curb weight. 

 

In fact, Benz may find themselves in a bit of a pinch perception wise if the CT6 and 7-series hit their weight goals. Both of those cars would be much faster than the S-Class with the same or possibly less horsepower. 

[smk4565]

The S-class has too much power for the other guys to beat with 4 and 6 cylinder engines.  An S550 does 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, pretty quick for a big car, and they have faster models.   A lighter weight 7-series with a 600 hp V12 could be a threat, but I doubt they put more hp in the 7-series than a Rolls-Royce, so the V12 will probably have like 540 hp.  One has to wonder though what the quest for light weight will do to ride quality or sound deadening.   Because in this segment luxury still comes first, and there is a image thing with a 4 or even V6, they seem common.  Just like a V12 is a status symbol because it is so rare and high end.

Edited June 5, 2015 by smk4565

[Suaviloquent]

I think even with immense weight loss or best in class curb weights and lbs/hp, Cadillac's gotta continue to walk the walk instead of riding the talk.

 

Like I've said before here, I'll believe it when I see it. If the CT6 is a serial-killer adept at slaying 7 Series and S-Classes; well I want to see it happen. 

 

Until then, no one in this segment (buyers) cares about weight unless Cadillac manages to make it important for the sake of performance and prestige, not CAFE. Heck, Bentley and Rolls-Royce engineers keep looking for more ways to make their cars EVEN heavier and more sublime.

 

So you're going to tell me, that a fledgling luxury brand, right about to find its place in the sun, is somehow going to change an over three decade's game overnight with one CT6?

 

And this is in spite of my outright love of Cadillac and everything they've been doing. I love the CTS. I love the ATS-V. I love everything Cadillac right now, but I'm a realist.

 

I think S-Class and 7 Series owners will scoff at the CT6 and say it's made out of an American beer can, and point to their magic body control and carbon fibre and overpriced monroney stickers, and you know what, I'd agree with them. It doesn't matter how fast a CT6 goes around the corners or in a straight line, when the S-Class dominates as a luxury car, not a sporty car. Everyone else falls in line. I'm not skeptical of Cadillac, but of buyer's willingness to try Cadillac. 

Edited June 6, 2015 by Suaviloquent

[smk4565]

^^ True dat.

[Cmicasa the Great]

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

 

Underrated or not the idea of its OK to put a 4cylinder in a Euro, but blasphemy to do it in an American Luxo is BULL$h!. Its actually no different than the BS that has been ignored about the Audi A8 coming in FWD config since forever in Europe, but them only offering it in AWD to fool the Car  "Enthusiasts" who despite all their worldly car knowledge always are oblivious to this. 

 

 

And no harm, but can U post a link to where the 528i was faster than the CTS2.0??? 

[Suaviloquent]

 

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

 

Underrated or not the idea of its OK to put a 4cylinder in a Euro, but blasphemy to do it in an American Luxo is BULL$h!. Its actually no different than the BS that has been ignored about the Audi A8 coming in FWD config since forever in Europe, but them only offering it in AWD to fool the Car  "Enthusiasts" who despite all their worldly car knowledge always are oblivious to this. 

 

 

And no harm, but can U post a link to where the 528i was faster than the CTS2.0??? 

 

 

Casa, I don't like the double standard either, it's all bunk and nonsense. As for posting links, I'm lazy, but I think everyone knows that BMW and Audi especially love to drastically underrate their engines. I think with the 8 Speed, the CTS will be even with the 528i. Most tests had the 528i at about 5.8 to 6 Seconds range while the CTS had a 6.0 to 6.3 seconds 0-60 range. All of it due to gearing. But.... here's the but... the Cadillac is lighter. And I'm just putting it out there; but I really couldn't care about 0.1 second differences myself. I'd get the Caddy every day, all day; every time, all the time. Just so you know.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

[El Kabong]

It's a rehash of the original CTS strategy-throw in a tweener-sized attention getter to show Cadillac can deliver. To be honest, it's roughly the same size as the standard wheelbase versions of the big German/Jag sedans, but those usually don't make it over here.

Based on the previews I've read (and I've read a LOT of them), the biggest non-driving quibble has been some of the switchgear could be more brand-specific. The tech behind the driveline and chassis has not been dissed, except for the questions about the aforementioned four-banger. I'll admit to being a bit unconvinced on that one-but time will tell.

[Drew Dowdell]

The two stalks on the steering column are literally the only two items on the interior I could find that are remotely GM parts-bin. 

[El Kabong]

At this price level you're starting to get into truly nitpicking stuff. But as you showed in the G-Class thread, some folks are willing to drink German bathwater. GM has to try that much harder to get the same props.

[Cmicasa the Great]

 

 

Ehhh. Well, BMW's engines are always horribly underrated. So since the CT6 and next 7 Series are going to weigh what their current siblings in the lower segment weigh; the BMW will probably still be faster 0-60 like the current 528i is over the CTS 2.0T. But the CT6 could make a huge impact around the corners.

 

But again, stupid nuances. Anyone in America looking at a CT6 or 7 Series probably isn't wanting for dollars that they're gonna save. In all sense of the world, it's a move for efficiency and emissions compliance. Downsizing has been happening all over the place, even in really absurd places. No one is following anyone. Every automaker is being forced down the same path; one way or another.

 

 

Underrated or not the idea of its OK to put a 4cylinder in a Euro, but blasphemy to do it in an American Luxo is BULL$h!. Its actually no different than the BS that has been ignored about the Audi A8 coming in FWD config since forever in Europe, but them only offering it in AWD to fool the Car  "Enthusiasts" who despite all their worldly car knowledge always are oblivious to this. 

 

 

And no harm, but can U post a link to where the 528i was faster than the CTS2.0??? 

 

 

Casa, I don't like the double standard either, it's all bunk and nonsense. As for posting links, I'm lazy, but I think everyone knows that BMW and Audi especially love to drastically underrate their engines. I think with the 8 Speed, the CTS will be even with the 528i. Most tests had the 528i at about 5.8 to 6 Seconds range while the CTS had a 6.0 to 6.3 seconds 0-60 range. All of it due to gearing. But.... here's the but... the Cadillac is lighter. And I'm just putting it out there; but I really couldn't care about 0.1 second differences myself. I'd get the Caddy every day, all day; every time, all the time. Just so you know.

 

 

 

Underrated or not.. the tests I've seen of the 2.0LTurbo vs the 528 have actually put the CTS on top or on par. The one where it doesn't is the 3.6L vs the 535i.. the 550i vs the VSport is a Cadillac victory

[Cmicasa the Great]

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

 

 

 

I still say that the CT6 was a under-promise over-deliver situation for Cadillac. This is not an XTS.. which is an excellent luxo car in its own right. I truly believe that it is a superior car to the current crop of Euro Flagships, including the S-Class, but within the parameters that they will cross-compete. For example.. until avail from Cadillac, an AMG S63 will certainly beat the $h! outta anything from them, but the S400 to S550 will have its hands full with the CT6 within those power/amenities. 

 

Having spent plenty of time in the previous S-Class.. and several drives and rides in the current S.. I simply don't see what is so hard for other makers to duplicate, or build superior. I also don't see why people think that it is so unbeatable. The only thing I can think of is that when I was in a certain position in life.. I thought anything with a Benz, BMW, Caddy, Jag, or even Lexus was the $h!.. now.. they are "just" more expensive than regular cars. Styling is the only thing that pushes the envelope in many case.. as much of the tech is available as far down as a Chevy Spark, for all intents.. today's Geo Metro

[G. David Felt]

The future speaks to Hybrids becoming the standard power train with an electric motor moving the auto and a small 2, 3 or 4 cylinder engine being a generator. Just a mater of time till the current small auto engines are replaced with true small tiny generators and a step up transformer to give the current needed to the battery pack and electric motor.

 

The days of V12, V10 and even V8's are numbered. Sad but true.

[ccap41]

I think even with immense weight loss or best in class curb weights and lbs/hp, Cadillac's gotta continue to walk the walk instead of riding the talk.

 

Like I've said before here, I'll believe it when I see it. If the CT6 is a serial-killer adept at slaying 7 Series and S-Classes; well I want to see it happen. 

 

Until then, no one in this segment (buyers) cares about weight unless Cadillac manages to make it important for the sake of performance and prestige, not CAFE. Heck, Bentley and Rolls-Royce engineers keep looking for more ways to make their cars EVEN heavier and more sublime.

 

So you're going to tell me, that a fledgling luxury brand, right about to find its place in the sun, is somehow going to change an over three decade's game overnight with one CT6?

 

And this is in spite of my outright love of Cadillac and everything they've been doing. I love the CTS. I love the ATS-V. I love everything Cadillac right now, but I'm a realist.

 

I think S-Class and 7 Series owners will scoff at the CT6 and say it's made out of an American beer can, and point to their magic body control and carbon fibre and overpriced monroney stickers, and you know what, I'd agree with them. It doesn't matter how fast a CT6 goes around the corners or in a straight line, when the S-Class dominates as a luxury car, not a sporty car. Everyone else falls in line. I'm not skeptical of Cadillac, but of buyer's willingness to try Cadillac. 

That is exactly how I feel about it.

 

Nobody buys a luxury barge and actually things to themselves.. "I think this is a good weight". They buy what suits them, whether it be performance or the lux or the tech. If the weight is used right to give it a superb ride then they nailed it. But if it is more performance oriented then I think they missed the mark. People only buy the S65 to say they did. Yes they'll probably hoon it a few times, because they can. But it is a "because they can" type of thing.

[ccap41]

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

Why are they aiming at the "gran coupe" class when this isn't a "gra coupe"? Wouldn't that mean E Class and A6? That is what those are both built on, correct?

[Drew Dowdell]

 

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

Why are they aiming at the "gran coupe" class when this isn't a "gra coupe"? Wouldn't that mean E Class and A6? That is what those are both built on, correct?

 

 

Aiming for the size and room of the bigger cars without the handling penalty (lighter weight, 4 wheel steering).  The CT6 is building it's own segment rather than trying to align exactly with what the Germans are doing. 

[ccap41]

 

 

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

Why are they aiming at the "gran coupe" class when this isn't a "gra coupe"? Wouldn't that mean E Class and A6? That is what those are both built on, correct?

 

 

Aiming for the size and room of the bigger cars without the handling penalty (lighter weight, 4 wheel steering).  The CT6 is building it's own segment rather than trying to align exactly with what the Germans are doing. 

 

Hmmmm.. interesting.. Kind of confusing by saying they are aiming at the CLS and A7 though.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

 

Cadillac has already stated that the CT6 is not aiming for the S-Class market. If anything they are looking at the 6-series Grand Coupe, A7, and CLS... but offering that level of car without the space compromises.  It will be the flagship sedan for now but another model up has been reported in the wings for over 6 months... and that would make sense as Omega platform would be extremely expensive to do for just one car.

Why are they aiming at the "gran coupe" class when this isn't a "gra coupe"? Wouldn't that mean E Class and A6? That is what those are both built on, correct?

 

 

Aiming for the size and room of the bigger cars without the handling penalty (lighter weight, 4 wheel steering).  The CT6 is building it's own segment rather than trying to align exactly with what the Germans are doing. 

 

Hmmmm.. interesting.. Kind of confusing by saying they are aiming at the CLS and A7 though.

 

 

Well the CLS and A7 are a bit bigger than the E-Class/A6, but aren't as large as the 7-series/S-Class.  They're trade-off cars.

[ccap41]

Okay, I thought they were almost identical to their "platform mates"(?). They are platform mates right? CLS-E and A7-A6?  I guess I thought they were identical wheelbase-wise.

[Drew Dowdell]

Wheelbases are about the same.  The Grand Coupes are a bit larger overall length.

[smk4565]

The CLS has less room than an E-class and it only seats 4, not 5.  CLS and E-class ride the same wheelbase and chassis, the CLS is longer, must have more overhang on the front and rear because of the body shape.  Interestingly, the C63 AMG is 3 inches longer than a standard C-class because they had to lengthen the hood to fit the V8.

 

The CT6 looks like 3-box sedan, it won't get cross shopped with an A7 or CLS which are just people that want something different from the more common A6 and E-class.  I think Cadillac wanted the first Omega platform car to be an S-class fighter, but then had to retract and say it isn't because they don't have a V8 yet, and they saw the W222 S-class and thought "oh crap"

 

The leaked photos of the 7-series make me think this is the best looking 7-series since the 90s.

[Drew Dowdell]

The leaked photos of the 7-series make me think this is the best looking 7-series since the 90s.

 

Pretty low bar you set there...

[smk4565]

Well the Bangle 7-series was the worst ever.  The current 7 looks like a fat 5-series.  That car hasn't looked good in 15 years.  This one actually looks unhappy and depressed.

 

Edited June 10, 2015 by smk4565

[oldshurst442]

I dont think ANY 7 Series Bimmer could be classified as good looking.

And the Bangle Butt first gen 7 Series for me, is the looker of them all, and that aint saying much.  However, If I was asked which 7 Series I prefer the most, it would be thta first gen Bangle Butt 7 Series.

[ccap41]

The CLS has less room than an E-class and it only seats 4, not 5.  CLS and E-class ride the same wheelbase and chassis, the CLS is longer, must have more overhang on the front and rear because of the body shape.  Interestingly, the C63 AMG is 3 inches longer than a standard C-class because they had to lengthen the hood to fit the V8.

 

The CT6 looks like 3-box sedan, it won't get cross shopped with an A7 or CLS which are just people that want something different from the more common A6 and E-class.  I think Cadillac wanted the first Omega platform car to be an S-class fighter, but then had to retract and say it isn't because they don't have a V8 yet, and they saw the W222 S-class and thought "oh crap"

 

The leaked photos of the 7-series make me think this is the best looking 7-series since the 90s.

Good info, thank you

 

I thought they were the same wheelbase originally, less roomy from the low slung roof.

 

I think  the original CLS was one of the sexiest cars ever.. Now the A7 has taken its place..

 

The new 7 Series..looks like another 7 Series.. That's about all i have for it. It isn't bad, it isn't good, it's somewhere in the middle.

[Frisky Dingo]

The later Bangle 7 was very good looking, imo. I think the outgoing car is also fairly attractive. Just a bit too restrained. 

[Suaviloquent]

I think right now, the CT6 doesn't really have a sliver of a chance to attract a large percentage of buyers from competing brands. People with the money want a production Elmiraj now, as in NOW but the time passing is festering impatience. But deliver it too late; it's basically a stillborn product. Cadillac would have made huge headlines with the CT6 being a bolder attempt.

 

But Cadillac doing basically what the Germans did to the touring sedan segment 20-30 years ago in the large segment, at the better price point sounds like a recipe for a whole new segment; but doesn't really warrant any further model above it; unless it's a purebred Rolls and Bentley competitor. I think instead of a 75k ELR; they should have quadruple or quintuple downed on a real Elmiraj. And I think that alone in its sheer audacity is how to dare greatly.