My 10 Minutes with a CT6

[surreal1272]

There hasn't been an S350 since 2013 model year.  And a 2016 S-class does not do 0-60 in 7 seconds.   Outside of Europe Mercedes went to the plug in hybrid to replace the diesel for the fuel economy model, seems like that was a good idea in light of the VW scandal, and the plug in technology offers better fuel economy and acceleration than the diesel did.

 

And the CT6 is priced below the Kia K900 and Hyundai Equus, so we know where Cadillac has placed the target and it is not on the S-class, so it doesn't really matter.

You were told for while that it was not targeting the S class, just for the record.

[Drew Dowdell]

From my friend at Cadillac, when I was at the CT6 reveal event in NY last year:

 

Me: So what cars are the primary targets for the CT6 to compete with?

Him: You tell me, what car do you think it competes with?

Me: Well, are you aiming for the S-Class?

Him: No, people who want the biggest, heaviest, isolation tank are just going to go buy an S-Class anyway. This car is for people who actually enjoy driving, want the luxury, and want the space.

 

Reflecting on that conversation:  It sounds like the CT6 is aiming more at being a 6-series 4-door with actual space, or a CLS400 with actual space, or an A7 with actual space.  Or a Lexus LS that can handle like a GS.

[Robert Hall]

So the base price is supposed to $54,490 according to reports today

[Drew Dowdell]

So the base price is supposed to $54,490 according to reports today

 

Indeed...

http://www.cheersandgears.com/_/cadillac-news/2016-cadillac-ct6-to-arrive-at-dealers-in-march-start-at-54990-r3108

[smk4565]

The 2017 E-class will compete well with the CT6 as far as what Mercedes it would be closest to.   Not sure what the point of having CTS, XTS, CT6 all in the $44-55k base price range, that is a lot of overlap there.

Edited November 3, 2015 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

XTS will stick around for a little while longer as it is one of the first existing products to get Super Cruise (along with CTS)

 

The E-Class will be much smaller on the inside than the CT6.

[smk4565]

E-class will have a better interior, and probably only give up like 3 inches of rear legroom, which to the old folks that buy these cars and don't even use the back seat, it probably won't be an issue.  We'll see if the CT6 carves out a niche, but if you want a driver's car, then you'll buy a CTS or 5-series or other mid-sizer.  So CT6 is just a bigger CTS, you aren't really getting more power or luxury, just space, and the CTS isn't really a small car, it is as big as the 2005-2009 STS was.

[Drew Dowdell]

As always with you, one spec is the only important feature until something else is the only important feature.

 

The CT6 is lighter than a 5-series or CTS and has 4-wheel steering. 

 

And yes, the CT6 has a nicer interior than the CTS.

[smk4565]

The CT6 is the gen-1 CTS but a class up.  The original CTS was 5-series size, 3-series priced and was knocked for being a tweener.  This is 7-series size, but 5-series price, so you get a big car, but not the luxury or tech or V8 of a 7-series, you basically get the interior of a 5-series with a longer wheel base.   I just don't see the appeal for a car this big with this engine mix.  If 300-400 sales a month is their goal I guess they'll be happy, but then they put a lot of money into this car for not a lot of return.  Not like you have a huge margin when CT6 is the only product on this platform and isn't selling for a really high dollar amount.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sure... you don't get the tech of a 7-series... why would you want something that behind the times? If the 7-series had an LCD rear view mirror, 360 camera with record function (for accident and security purposes), the coming super cruise, if it had 4-wheel steering, or magnetic ride control, or the lightest chassis for its size... then maybe the 7-series would be right up there with Cadillac on the tech level.... but hey, if all it takes is a Samsung 7 Inch tablet for the back seat to entertain you, I'm sure the Cadillac dealer would make a special trip to Costco to pick one up for you. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

 

The CT6 is going to have an interesting range of engines.  Over the course of it's life, it will have 4-cylinder Turbo, 4-cylinder Plug-In Hybrid, Standard V6, Turbo V6 (more than one?), Turbo V8, and a diesel of some sort. 

 

 

I forgot they were packaging an I4 with it.  In that case, they clearly want to come in with a low MSRP, probably around $55K.

I think that is a mistake, because it steps right on the toes of the CTS.  And that will probably be a large seller as well, and simply not enough engine for that large car.  Bad move cadillac.  

 

 

 

wooohoooo, I was spot on for the I4, well, within $500 anyway.

But I was also spot on for the 400hp model in my previous post at $65K......Dam I am good    

[Drew Dowdell]

Props to you. You did get those guesses right.  You get to pick from the usual list of prizes. 

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

By the way, I think Cadillac priced the 6 very smartly.  And I based my guess on the fact that they would.  Several reasons. First, the ELR taught them a valuable lesson.  Second, growing competition. 

 

Speaking of which, I will guess that the base price of a Conti will come in around similar price as I4, but equipped with a 6.  Top engine AWD 3.0L should probably be priced similar, or around $65K.  

[Drew Dowdell]

I was under the impression that the 3.0TT in the Continental would be the base engine.  Is that incorrect?

[ccap41]

^ I think that was the impression that was given.

 

Also, with the CT6 starting at 55k does that mean that the Conti may possibly compete with it..? I know it appears that the Conti will definitely not be the driver's car like the CT6 but if they're of similar size, similar price, similar segment, then they'd compete, right?

[Drew Dowdell]

Less compete and more overlap.  I think the Continental will be more the luxury cruiser than the CT6's autobahn bruiser.   That isn't a judgement of which is good or bad... I tend to prefer the luxury cruisers myself.

[El Kabong]

By and large, a well-engineered product will allow for a broader range of capabilities. It may yet be unfair to suggest that the CT6 will have to sacrifice cruisability for bruisability. With that platform at that price and weight, it may well be the total package.

[Drew Dowdell]

By and large, a well-engineered product will allow for a broader range of capabilities. It may yet be unfair to suggest that the CT6 will have to sacrifice cruisability for bruisability. With that platform at that price and weight, it may well be the total package.

 

As long as I can set the MRC to "marshmallow" I'll be fine.

[ccap41]

Less compete and more overlap.  I think the Continental will be more the luxury cruiser than the CT6's autobahn bruiser.   That isn't a judgement of which is good or bad... I tend to prefer the luxury cruisers myself.

That is a better way to put it, overlap.

 

It's funny because my driving style is definitely of the passive and a luxury cruiser would suite me better but I would still WANT the sporty, aggressive, nimble car.

 

I'd like to read a comparison of the two but as a Ford guy that probably wouldn't be the best article to read..lol

[ccap41]

By and large, a well-engineered product will allow for a broader range of capabilities. It may yet be unfair to suggest that the CT6 will have to sacrifice cruisability for bruisability. With that platform at that price and weight, it may well be the total package.

Unless it has something to compete with Magic Body Control like the Benz does.. it won't truly be the total package.

 

Give me something to read the road so I NEVER feel the bumps, now that's marshmellow mode.

[Suaviloquent]

The total package will be what follows, not the CT6.

 

Bring an interior atleast up to par with the new 7 Series, keep the weight low, not absurdly low that you sacrifice NVH, and make the 3.0TT standard with V8s optional and the CT7/8 will be excellent.

 

I think a CT6 level car just transposed with Buick Styling would make a wonderful Buick, and at this same price structure, truly special.

 

But this just looks like an excellent car that still might not do Cadillac justice. Cadillac is capable of doing so much more, and they don't need this car. Buick does.

[smk4565]

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

[oldshurst442]

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

YUP! Cant argue with you there.

 

It does appear to be that way, doesnt it???!!!

 

[Robert Hall]

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

Cadillac goes their own way, they aren't in lock step with the Germans...

[oldshurst442]

 

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

Cadillac goes their own way, they aren't in lock step with the Germans...

 

Im not too sure about that statement.

 

1. Cadillac has admitted that they want to target and mimic BMW and take the fight to the Germans.

 

2. Alphanumeric names.

 

 

As much as I love Cadillac, and as much as SMK loves to stick it to Cadillac and praise his beloved Mercedes Benz...he does have a point here...

[Drew Dowdell]

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

 

The CT6 is not a stop gap. 

[smk4565]

I'd like to see Cadillac get it in gear.  They have a storied and proud history (well for most of their history), and they should be able to really outshine the Japanese luxury brands and the Genesis/Equus but they can hardly achieve that.    I still think GM compromises Cadillac for no unearthly reason.  They'll make 500 hp Camaros or 600 hp Corvettes, yet put a 270 hp 4-cylinder in the biggest Cadillac.    Why isn't the best sports car at GM at Cadillac?  An average Cadillac should be better than the best Chevrolet in my opinion.  Really the worst Cadillac should be as good as the best Chevy.  Look at Lexus, their worst car is probably the ES350, which is still better than an Avalon.

[oldshurst442]

 

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

 

The CT6 is not a stop gap. 

 

It may not be a stop gap, but Johan did say the CT6 is NOT the halo car that Cadillac needs it to be either, something the previous brass said that the CT6  WAS the halo car that the world was waiting for...

 

Bankruptcy had a play in that and Johan being brought in to really make Cadillac top tier aside...the way SMK describes the situation over at Cadillac is eerily accurate.

[Guest Wings4Life(BANNED)]

I was under the impression that the 3.0TT in the Continental would be the base engine.  Is that incorrect?

 

There are multiple engine options, and 3.0L is top choice.  Not unlike the CT6.  It would be foolish otherwise for both brands.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

I was under the impression that the 3.0TT in the Continental would be the base engine.  Is that incorrect?

 

There are multiple engine options, and 3.0L is top choice.  Not unlike the CT6.  It would be foolish otherwise for both brands.

 

 

Interesting..... so now I'm going to guess.

 

Base - 2.3 EB

Mid - 3.5 NA

Top - 3.0TT

 

and possibly a hybrid.

[Drew Dowdell]

 

 

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

 

The CT6 is not a stop gap. 

 

It may not be a stop gap, but Johan did say the CT6 is NOT the halo car that Cadillac needs it to be either, something the previous brass said that the CT6  WAS the halo car that the world was waiting for...

 

Bankruptcy had a play in that and Johan being brought in to really make Cadillac top tier aside...the way SMK describes the situation over at Cadillac is eerily accurate.

 

 

The thing is, none of that is new.  We knew that the CT6 was not going to be the top Caddy before any of us here even saw it. Johan said as much before it was revealed.  Why is any of this news to anyone here?

[oldshurst442]

 

 

 

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

 

The CT6 is not a stop gap. 

 

It may not be a stop gap, but Johan did say the CT6 is NOT the halo car that Cadillac needs it to be either, something the previous brass said that the CT6  WAS the halo car that the world was waiting for...

 

Bankruptcy had a play in that and Johan being brought in to really make Cadillac top tier aside...the way SMK describes the situation over at Cadillac is eerily accurate.

 

 

The thing is, none of that is new.  We knew that the CT6 was not going to be the top Caddy before any of us here even saw it. Johan said as much before it was revealed.  Why is any of this news to anyone here?

 

It ant news to me...and Im sure it aint news to SMK either.

 

Drew, you got to admit, from the Allante, to the Cadillac that zigs, to the Bulgari interior XLR, to the STS-V that entered rockin'-n-a-rollin' while its German rivals "quivered' to the CT6...not much progress has been made in SURPASSING the Germans. Progress has been made in gaining a tad more respectability with the Germans and with the public, but Cadillac is still chasing the Germans...and I think THAT is what SMK is sayin'

 

And I also think he is sayin' that Cadillac will NEVER catch up as they seem to ALWAYS be a couple of steps back.

 

Although I disagree with him there, we both really cant fault him with that opinion he holds. Because so far, his opinion holds truth to it!

[smk4565]

Johan had to down play expectations, because his company doesn't build the Best or Nothing, but rather "Good Enough and Wait till next year"

[Suaviloquent]

 

 

 

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

 

The CT6 is not a stop gap. 

 

It may not be a stop gap, but Johan did say the CT6 is NOT the halo car that Cadillac needs it to be either, something the previous brass said that the CT6  WAS the halo car that the world was waiting for...

 

Bankruptcy had a play in that and Johan being brought in to really make Cadillac top tier aside...the way SMK describes the situation over at Cadillac is eerily accurate.

 

 

The thing is, none of that is new.  We knew that the CT6 was not going to be the top Caddy before any of us here even saw it. Johan said as much before it was revealed.  Why is any of this news to anyone here?

 

 

It's the reality of the car actually arriving setting in. Hey, it re-kindled the debate for me too.

 

There were 4 events that continuously shaped this vehicle and its reception,I feel.

 

1 - Some rumors about cost-cutting when the first spy shots came out

2 - Johan naming it the CT6 and not the top Cadillac

3 - The car's debut in New York and its reception there

4 - The on sale date and the confusion by this price structure as to Cadillac's intended purpose of the vehicle, its market positioning.

 

The last event is the press reviews and initial market positioning.

 

Cadillac is certainly doing something very different. I like it, but see it as carving an onion. It's possible, but it's going to make many people cry (foul, not tears). Hey, I'm one of them!

[smk4565]

It ant news to me...and Im sure it aint news to SMK either.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Drew, you got to admit, from the Allante, to the Cadillac that zigs, to the Bulgari interior XLR, to the STS-V that entered rockin'-n-a-rollin' while its German rivals "quivered' to the CT6...not much progress has been made in SURPASSING the Germans. Progress has been made in gaining a tad more respectability with the Germans and with the public, but Cadillac is still chasing the Germans...and I think THAT is what SMK is sayin'

 

And I also think he is sayin' that Cadillac will NEVER catch up as they seem to ALWAYS be a couple of steps back.

 

Although I disagree with him there, we both really cant fault him with that opinion he holds. Because so far, his opinion holds truth to it!

 

That is exactly what I have been saying for years.  Allante, Northstar V8, Sigma platform cars, Alpha platform cars, etc.  Always chasing, never getting there.  And I actually liked the 98-03 Seville STS, I liked the Northstar V8, it was a good sounding engine.  I liked the styling of the XLR, it was just overpriced and under powered, and the interior build quality was closer to Corvette than it was to Mercedes.  Cadillac always takes a shortcut some where and it back fires because the product election is not good enough.  

 

GM has no problem putting a 450 hp V8 in a Chevy Camaro, because they need to try to one up the competition, but when it comes to Cadillac a 270 hp 4-cylinder is deemed adequate while even Hyundai has a 420 hp V8.  And I realize that is a top Camaro to a base CT6, and I get the CT6 weighs less than an Equus or Genesis.   But to me Cadillac's volume engine should be a 3 liter twin turbo V6, that shouldn't really be the top end.  GM will put V8s in $30,000 pick ups, but not $65,000 luxury cars.  Doesn't make sense, and I am not saying I want a Silverado engine in a Cadillac, I do not, I want Cadillac to have their own V8.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac trademarked the CTx lineup before Johan got there.... so as much as we want to blame the naming mess on him (and believe me, I'd like to), it wasn't his doing unless he was freelancing at Cadillac on his days off from Infiniti.

 

There is virtually zero of Johan's decisions in the CT6 final product.  He didn't get there soon enough to effect any change on the car.   As someone (I think Hyper) mentioned, this is mostly Mark's car.

 

 

SMK:  You are always worried about the "how" rather than the results.  The Equus is a fat pig.  It weighs 900lbs more than the CT6.    The 2014 Equus has a 6.4 second 0-60 time.... same as a Buick Regal GS.  The Cadillac CTS 2.0T AWD has a 0-60 time of 5.8 second, so the lighter and RWD CT6 will do a few 10ths better than that.

 

So tell me, why is embarrassing for Cadillac to be running the CT6 with a Turbo-4 and it is NOT embarrassing for a Hyundai with a 420hp V8 to be running soooo much slower.    Oh I get it.... it's fine for a 420hp car to be lower than a Turbo-4 as long as it has a V8.

[ccap41]

Well.. No matter what anybody else thinks of the car and it's awkward pricing compared to their other cars I think it is one heck of a looker. I cannot wait to see one of these in person.

[oldshurst442]

Well.. No matter what anybody else thinks of the car and it's awkward pricing compared to their other cars I think it is one heck of a looker. I cannot wait to see one of these in person.

Yes. It is quite the looker.

 

With all being said about where Cadillac is at and where Cadillac is heading. I cant wait for Cadillac to get their bespoke engines and their stand-alone dealerships...or at the very least, break off from the rest of GM's sales departments to offer their own real luxury experience.

 

Some of that what SMK is talking about is  'perception'....Allantes and XLR's aside. The CT6, the CTS and the ATS are vehicles that are on par, or better, than ze Germans.  They will finally SURPASS ze Germans when the aforementioned bespoke engines and "bespoke" sales experience hits the market place.

[surreal1272]

I remember when the XTS came out, and it was just a stop gap vehicle, and how the next car coming would be the flagship Cadillac had been waiting for.  Now the CT6 isn't even on sale yet, and it is already a stop gap and we are waiting for the next car.  Cadillac can't always have the car to challenge the Germans 4 years away, they have been saying that for 15 years.

The CT6 was never mentioned by anyone in the actual business as a stop gap car. That is just what you keep convincing yourself of even though it was made clear what the CT6 was aiming for and it's not the S-Class. That is for the CT8.