andy82471

TOYOTA tries to be more

73 posts in this topic

HAHAHAHA!!

That face is priceless!!

You can just see what he's thinking... "heeheehee, give me all your money!"

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Toyota is second only to Wal*Mart in my short list of EVIL corporations.

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Toyota is second only to Wal*Mart in my short list of EVIL corporations.

There is a difference. Toyota pays there US employees well and they sell their product at a premium.

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There is a difference.  Toyota pays there US employees well and they sell their product at a premium.

Yes they pay their employees well enough...

but can you honestly say they play fair in any

way they don't have to?

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Yes they pay their employees well enough...

but can you honestly say they play fair in any

way they don't have to?

What company doesn't stretch the rules in the grey areas???GM was once a champion of just this kind of corporate manipulation...unfortunately, we all live in glass houses in this respect.

Wal-Mart, as Evok pointed out, has been wiping out community small employers for years, depressing wages and creating traffic nightmares across the country, while becoming the driving force behind the outsourcing of almost all manufacturing to low wage countries....

If anything, companies like Toyota have contributed to a much needed kick in the ass that GM, Ford, Chrysler and other companies needed to produce better product for ALL of us...I don't think anyone here would argue that competition has created better GM product. I'd blame gov't policies regarding health care and currency valuation for 50% of the uneven playing field our manufacturing base has faced in the last 20 years.

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Let's see if I understand the situation. Liberals think unions are great and protect the employees from evil management. GM and Ford have union contracts and pay better and have more benefits for skilled and semi-skilled workers than the non-union Toyota, but they are fools for doing that. Wal-mart pays wages no different than many of those mom and pop businesses and frequently more with some benefits. What other large national retailers pay better and have more US goods in their stores?

Wal-Mart is evil when they make a large profit. Exxon is evil when they make a large profit, even though, just like Toyota, people can choose to buy elsewhere. Toyota is called great for making a huge profit. It seems that on the coasts, which are mostly liberal, people buy a lot more Toyotas. Would seem a little two faced to me.

On a side note Toyota had revenues 30 times what Harley Davidson had, but only had profits of 15 times as much. I guess that is why Toyota's market capitalization is only 15 times Harley's. Looks like there is an American company better run than Toyota.

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If anything, companies like Toyota have contributed to a much needed kick in the ass that GM, Ford, Chrysler and other companies needed to produce better product for ALL of us...

Well, maybe the Fusion would have looked a little more American... and maybe the Zephyr and Milan would have looked a little more boring...

but wait... would we have had either of those without the unfairness of from our own Government(Congress) and the kickfrom Japan's big 3??? Maybe... but highly unlikely

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I don't get how Toyota is evil. If making money is evil, I wanna be Satan.

Wal-Mart, IMO, isn't evil because they put little Mom&Pop joints out of business... they're evil for using government to condemn private property, having governments sieze that property & then sell it to Wal-Mart for pennies on the guarantee of higher tax revenues.

Is the Harley plant unionized?

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Born in Japan made in USA

How does that differ from "Born in USA made in Canada," or "Born in USA made in Mexico," or Born in USA made in Australia," or "Born in USA made in Germany..." :blink:

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If you can't tell the difference between "Born in Japan, Made in the USA" versus the others, then we have a serious problem.

Japan is a closed market. Ford, GM, Fiat, VW, and the others are virtually banned from building or marketing vehicles in Japan. GM, Ford, etc. build and sell cars in Canada; they build and sell cars in Europe.

THERE IS A VAST DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE JAPANESE MARKET AND THE EUROPEAN OR NORTH AMERICAN MARKET.

You have to understand that the Japanese Big Five enjoy a virtual monopoly in Japan. Even Mercedes and BMW can't sell that many vehicles there. MITI blocks and harasses outside, foreign companies at every turn.

Besides, building an American car built in Mexico creates jobs in Mexico and maybe will keep a few extra illegals on THAT side of the border. LOL

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I was referring more to the American market. Nothing bugs me more than some ignorant redneck in a Canadian built Chevy telling my I'm somehow unpatriotic for buying an "import." What? Is Ohio a different nation, now? :D

The big 2.5 "domestics" sell plenty of vehicles in the USA that aren't built here, yet they're the only ones credited with being 'domestics.' Meanwhile, a Camry is not only assembled here, but most of the parts come from here... compare that with the upcoming Chinese engines we'll be seeing in "domestics" and I get a little confused.

In truth, there is no longer a 'domestic' car company any more than Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes, Kia etc are imports... in my humble little opinion, anyway.

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Well, then sir, Toyota's marketing campaign has succeeded - they've convinced you.

SIGH

I've said this before, but you're new here so I'll say it again:

Buying a Japanese car is not like buying a pair of Nikes made in Singapore. If you can't see the downside to sending $30,000 to foreign soil, then you need a hard lesson in economics. Japan Inc. is doing just enough to convince people like YOU that they are as American as applie pie. Most of the parts, most of the technology and design all come from Japan. The profits also go to Japan. Most of the high paying, technical jobs are in Japan. Don't be fooled by a few warehouse and parts assembly jobs in Ohio and California.

Ford and GM employ, directly and indirectly more North Americans than all the import companies combined.

I'll leave you with two thoughts:

1) Japan's trade surplus with the U.S. (and Canada) is being balanced by their buying up of treasury bills. At some point, Tokyo is going to be telling Washington what to do.

2) Detroit was once the "arsenal of democracy." How humble will the U.S. President have to be to politely ask the Prime Minister of Japan if he can possibly commandeer a few assembly plants to build tanks and guns to fight the next war?

The only reason the navy doesn't have to ask Japan to build its next aircraft carrier is because some American shipyards survived on American military contracts when the Korean and Japanese companies ran the AMerican ship builders out of business.

So, go ahead and drive your Ohio-built Honda and know that an engineer in Osaka is sending his kid to university on your purchase when your kids are flipping burgers.

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Whether or not a company's product is made in the USA... They are still Japanese and will always be Japanese. People who say elsewise just befuddle me. And besides, the Japanese vehicles that were built in Japan seem to have been better than the ones made in the US, quality wise... :P

Regardless, though... It's not like I care where a vehicle is made. If I like it, I'm going to buy it and not bitch or put up with bitching about it being unamerican.

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Well, then sir, Toyota's marketing campaign has succeeded - they've convinced you.

  SIGH

  I've said this before, but you're new here so I'll say it again:

  Buying a Japanese car is not like buying a pair of Nikes made in Singapore.  If you can't see the downside to sending $30,000 to foreign soil, then you need a hard lesson in economics.  Japan Inc. is doing just enough to convince people like YOU that they are as American as applie pie.  Most of the parts, most of the technology and design all come from Japan.  The profits also go to Japan.  Most of the high paying, technical jobs are in Japan.  Don't be fooled by a few warehouse and parts assembly jobs in Ohio and California.

  Ford and GM employ, directly and indirectly more North Americans than all the import companies combined.

  I'll leave you with two thoughts:

  1)  Japan's trade surplus with the U.S. (and Canada) is being balanced by their buying up of treasury bills.  At some point, Tokyo is going to be telling Washington what to do.

  2)  Detroit was once the "arsenal of democracy."  How humble will the U.S. President have to be to politely ask the Prime Minister of Japan if he can possibly commandeer a few assembly plants to build tanks and guns to fight the next war?

  The only reason the navy doesn't have to ask Japan to build its next aircraft carrier is because some American shipyards survived on American military contracts when the Korean and Japanese companies ran the AMerican ship builders out of business.

  So, go ahead and drive your Ohio-built Honda and know that an engineer in Osaka is sending his kid to university on your purchase when your kids are flipping burgers.

Riiiight.... I've bought Japan's PR BS & you've bought Detroit's.

Most of the parts, technology & design come from Japan? Wrong. You're either ignorant or intentionally lying. Toyota, Honda, and Hyundai have had design studios here for quite some time. The Camry was at one point the car with the MOST USA sourced parts of any vehicle sold here... 80%. That figure is a couple of years old, however. Either way, that number was better than anything GM, Ford or ChryCo was doing. In fact, the Honda I drive is sold nowhere BUT America. They sell an Accord badged car in Europe & Asia, but it is NOT the same chassis that's sold here. Honda of America is but one arm of a huge multi-national corporation - not unlike GM & Ford.

Commandeering plants? How the hell is any US president going to commandeer a plant in Canada or Mexico? Your own argument is an argument against your own point. Like I asked before.... is Ohio a foreign nation? How about Georgia, Tennessee, Alabama, or South Carolina? If, God forbid, there were a war ugly enough to necessitate that sort of thing, there's nothing that would stop the production of tanks at an Ohio Honda plant that would stop them from being produced in a Detroit Chevy plant... a plant in Mexico or Canada would be a different story.

And sending $30,000 to a foreign soil? There's a family or two in Ohio who might take that comment as BS. Or how about the hundreds of people about to be hired by Kia here in Georgia? Unavoidably, many of those hired will be former GM Doraville assembly plant wokers & former Ford Hapeville assembly plant workers... You know... plants GM & Ford are closing down?

The simple fact is that almost every single Honda badged car you see on America's roads were built here. You simply CANNOT say that about Fords or GM badged products. IIRC, the only Japanese built Honda-badged cars on the road here are Insights & the upcoming Fit. Everthing else is built here & the ONLY time they're imported is when the Ohio plants can't keep up.

And if buying a 'domestic' is so important to the nation & money flows the way you say it does, where does the money go when a Vibe is sold? How about when one of the DSM cars were sold as Chrysler products? How about an Aveo, Geo, Raider, Tribute (or any other Mazda, for that matter?) How about when I buy a German designed & built Saturn? What about the old Merkurs?

Nay, sir, I believe you are the one who might due well to look at economics & specifically the term multinational corporation. Perhaps it's YOU that are being manipulated into blindly buying what YOU think is a domestic product. There simply are no more domestic auto manufacturers & there will soon be very few imports. It simply costs too much to produce a vehicle in only one location. That business model has been tried & has failed. Putting aside the cost of transporting them, fluctuating labor costs & currency valuation makes the terms "import" and "domestic" all but irrelevant.

The whole reason Lexus and Acura are still imported from Japan is that it's only with the extra profitability can those products be built in Japan & still be sold in the USA at an acceptible profit.

Your red white & blue Chevy is no more an American product than my Honda is an American product. The difference is only in your mind... For a REAL lesson in this brand of marketing, check out Ford. If ever there were a wiz at making a domestic an import & an import a domestic, it's Ford.

In the end, I'll buy the best product my money can find. If it's badged a Honda, so be it. I'll not buy American out of fear or pity. I'd hate to think any American would want me to.

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You've conveniently ignored where the PROFITS go and about your helping Japan buy up Washington, that's fine.

I've forgot where the posting is, but as I said, you're new - but recently we bashed this post to death and someone posted the domestic content for American versus imports. If I remember correctly, GM & Ford were around 60% and Toyota, Honda were 50% or something like that, but even those numbers conveniently ignore where the profits go and only really talk about hard products like windshields and tires, not soft products like research and design. Nobody from Japan has anything on this shore to rival GM's Technical Center. If America loses that, she loses a lot of proprietary technology to Japan Inc. - again.

If you want to justify your Honda, then you are correct that this is a FREE world and a FREE economy. But don't try to rationalize that your purchase is no different than if you buy a foreign made pair of shoes. The backbone of North America is manufacturing, but not just who BUILDS the widgets but who OWNS the trademarks, patents and assets. Do you think the 13 year old who makes running shoes in Thailand knows anything about building the factory she is in? Or will she ever hope to one day run it?

If Detroit goes down, then the most vital pilar of American manufacturing prowess will be gone and with it, all future technologies and development. Just look at where all the current technologies in electronics are coming from, yet America once owned the television and radio market.

I wonder how fast the plant in Ohio will be shut down if Ford and GM disappear?

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I never said Toyota is evil, yet others think Exxon and Wal-Mart are for doing the same thing. There are plenty of Wal-Marts near me and none of them aquired their land by having a local government condemn land to sell to them. If someone has proof of that, please enlighten me. Wal-Mart also hasn't had any stores built with corporate welfare like Toyota has had plants built that way. No government has paid for infrastructure changes to entice Wal-Mart to come to town.

Harley being unionized or not has little to do with the fact that Harley outperforms Toyota as a business, but isn't praised by the media for their better performance.

I recently read that Camrys are being built in China for that market and engines for those vehicles are built there and also exported to Japan and the US. GM only builds engines in China for the Equinox and Torrent and the rest stay in China. Where's the difference?

Just because holders of T-Bills are from Japan doesn't mean they own our country. T-Bills are guaranteed by the faith and financial ability to repay backed by the US government. We will never have to ask them for permission to do anything. If the value of the dollar drops dramatically, they lose money. It seems they better be just as nice to us.

If some believe that cars like the Camry are mostly sourced from the US, they are the ignorant ones. Having a few token engineers to help plan a new product that is more fitting to the US market doesn't mean all the engineers and designers are in the US. DCX has far more engineers and designers here than Toyota and sell around the same number of vehicles. DCX has far more employees in the US assembling those vehicles as well. Two thirds of Toyotas cars are assembled here with 3/4 of those engines having final assembly here. Less than half of the transmissions are built here. GM builds the Duramax in Ohio with a number of parts from Japan and the original design made there. If that were Toyota it would be called 100% by the blind faithfull. Same situation with transmissions and a lot of other componenets. To build a car takes tooling. Any guesses where Toyota's tooling is made? You'd have to guess because Toyota won't admit to where it comes from.

I have a vehicle designed and built in America with mostly American components. There is not a Japanese product that can meet my needs as well as it does. I don't have a German designed and built Saturn and I don't see where Saturn does either. The Japanese are adding a lot of jobs and investment in the US, but calling them just as American is very premature. GM and Ford are using a lot of their global investments for new product here, I just don't have one yet.

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In fact, the Honda I drive is sold nowhere BUT America.  They sell an Accord badged car in Europe & Asia, but it is NOT the same chassis that's sold here.

If you're referring to the American Accord, it is rebadged as the Inspire elsewhere (click). The Acura TSX is a rebadged version of the Accord used in Europe and Japan.

You've conveniently ignored where the PROFITS go and about your helping Japan buy up Washington, that's fine.

Where DO the profits go?

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Wal Mart was kept out of my town... :P

I wish that were the case here. We have about 10 super walmarts, and a handful of regular walmarts. We used to have a Safeway about 200 ft from my house, but they closed. I wonder why?

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Some of you guys are missing my point. I'm not saying Honda & Toyota are just as American as Chevy & Ford (although, really, they are.) I'm saying Chevy & Ford are just as unAmerican as Honda & Toyota.

Let's figure the profit line, since that's a favorite. Why is it important to follow the profits to where they'll end up? Really... ask yourself that question. Is it so that you make sure it's an American executive who makes a few million versus a Japanese one?

No.

The reason most folks, if they thought it through, would want the profits to stay in the US is because a US company theoretically will re-invest that money into more American plants, more American manufacturing capacity, and therefore, more American jobs.

However, lately, that's not how it works. GM, Ford, & ChryCo are taking those American dollars & investing in plants - not in the USA, but in Mexico & specifically Canada. Why? If any of those three open a plant in the US, they're hampered by UAW workers... and this drives the UAW nuts, but they're exponentially more expensive as a workforce than non-unionized workers. Of course, in Canada, they have THAT union to deal with, but compared to the UAW, the Canadians are much much cheaper to employ.

Nissan, Toyota, and Honda, on the other hand, can hire the most productive workers in the world - American workers - and not worry about the UAW. They can open up shop in 'right to work' states like Georgia & produce cars with labor that's impossibly cheap.

So, while Ford, GM & Chryco are investing in foreign plants, Nissan Toyota and Honda are investing here in the USA. They do that with profits that are made here.

For every instance any one can show of a domestic company building or expanding a plant in the USA, I can post three examples of them closing plants, reducing capacity, or one of Japan's big three doing the opposite... IN AMERICA.

Toyota is no more a Japanese company than GM is an American one. They're all multinationals & are all going to get their resources from the least expensive place they can find them. General Motors is an American/Canadian/Mexican/French/British/Australian/Chinese[etc] company, just like Honda & Toyota. They're all whores of the dollar - be it a Canuck dollar, American dollar, or even Euro. They'll buy from the cheapest supplier & that includes labor. For GM, Canada is a bit cheaper. For Toyota, Tennessee is. Go figure. GM doesn't expand their plants in Canada because they're unpatriotic & Toyota doesn't build a plant in Tennessee to show thier American spirit. They do it to maximize profit.

---------

The profits from my Honda are being spent on approx 1500 new jobs and expanded manufacturing capacity in Ohio... not that I'd ever make a $25K purchase based on where a product was manufactured.

-------

Look at it like this. GM certainly won't hire me just because I'm an American... they'd hire me based on the merits of my work. I have no higher standard for GM. If they make a product that gives me the best bang for my buck, I'll buy & so will every other American.

With that, I point to the Solstice & Sky as proof. Anyone seen a 3rd gen. Miata, lately? They're being outsold 2 to 1 even with the limited supply of the Solstice/Sky.

You guys can keep your arguments about what makes a domestic & what makes an import. Fact is, most of us clearly don't give a crap. Build kick-a$$ cars & we'll buy them.

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