2020 Cadillac CT5 Sport showroom impression and pictures

[regfootball]

Pics of a new 2020 CT5

Impressions:

 

whoa   Finally got picture up  impressions later 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by regfootball

[caddycruiser]

My Thursday...in Long Island, saw 4 back to back, morning, afternoon and night freshly purchased, and rolling along. Oddly, in person, the shape is better than a current/latest CTS, but and looks considerably smaller.

Must be a decent lease rate on them, if I'm seeing real customer driven examples around Long Island, NY.

[David]

I hope Cadillac does not go the way of German Luxury, 95% leases since no one can really afford them or maintain them.

[riviera74]

2 hours ago, dfelt said:

I hope Cadillac does not go the way of German Luxury, 95% leases since no one can really afford them or maintain them.

And Yet prices are such that all luxury marques will go the way of virtually all leased.  The good news: affordable pre-owned options in 24-36 months!

[ocnblu]

Steering wheel leather wrap looks like a do-it-yourself Pep Boys job, it's all wavy and wrinkled at the right side.  Not befitting.  Car is not too bad looking in Sport guise.

[riviera74]

SO how did the radio sound on this one as opposed to the 2017 CT6-V with the Blackwing?

[regfootball]

I didn't try the CT6-V.....:(

 

i like blackout trim on cars but TBH i would prefer that they leave some chrome on the Sport......

[Robert Hall]

That looks like the trim and spec of one I sat in at the auto show (seems like so long ago now).  I didn't care for the dreary charcoal interior and vile CF trim.   A light tan interior w/ some wood would be way more appealing to me. 

[trinacriabob]

@Robert Hall  I think that any car that's worth its salt would offer a minimum of three interior colors - black, tan, and gray - and the contrasting pieces would not be black, but a darker shade of tan or gray if that's what the main seating color.  Any other colors are "gravy" and usually dictated by price point.  I think it's sad that the Malibu, for example, which now has to cover a lot of bases only offers black in LS, LT, and RS trims.  Ditto on your opinion about wood accents inside.

@regfootball  It's a mix of good and not so good.  I like the big arcs on the interior dash but not the infotainment screen.  It cancels out the sweeping arcs behind it on the cowl.  The console does not look as high as that of the outgoing LaCrosse.  Maybe the power seat can take a person closer up to the console height.

First and foremost, I do not like how the rear passenger window mouldings taper off into the C-pillar.  And, so close to that is a funky rear light assembly, further cluttered by a built in spoiler.  They look more Hyundai-grade.  It would be a "no go" for me.  The car looks better up front.  Why can't automakers design car envelopes that look balanced?

You mean it snows where you live?  J/K.

[balthazar]

The interior issue is a good portrait of the industry in general. Color choices inside & out are way down from decades ago, regardless of brand. Sad.

[ocnblu]

I like the "galvanized" (bluish gray) with medium gray and black in my truck.  Generally a sad state of affairs all over when it comes to interior color availability on affordable vehicles.

LOVE Lincoln's current blue interiors.

We currently have a white Impala LT in the shop with very dark brown and black interior, interesting, haven't seen that option.

[regfootball]

On 2/23/2020 at 7:05 PM, riviera74 said:

SO how did the radio sound on this one as opposed to the 2017 CT6-V with the Blackwing?

but it sounded better than that CT6 tt.  I am guessing there was something wrong or badly set up on the Ct6 panaray i tested.  that used CT6 is still for sale, interestingly enough......

On 4/5/2020 at 8:56 AM, Robert Hall said:

That looks like the trim and spec of one I sat in at the auto show (seems like so long ago now).  I didn't care for the dreary charcoal interior and vile CF trim.   A light tan interior w/ some wood would be way more appealing to me. 

i didn't mind the black but do agree.  some of the CT5 trim options include a light color.

Edited April 19, 2020 by regfootball

[regfootball]

9 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

@Robert Hall  I think that any car that's worth its salt would offer a minimum of three interior colors - black, tan, and gray - and the contrasting pieces would not be black, but a darker shade of tan or gray if that's what the main seating color.  Any other colors are "gravy" and usually dictated by price point.  I think it's sad that the Malibu, for example, which now has to cover a lot of bases only offers black in LS, LT, and RS trims.  Ditto on your opinion about wood accents inside.

@regfootball  It's a mix of good and not so good.  I like the big arcs on the interior dash but not the infotainment screen.  It cancels out the sweeping arcs behind it on the cowl.  The console does not look as high as that of the outgoing LaCrosse.  Maybe the power seat can take a person closer up to the console height.

First and foremost, I do not like how the rear passenger window mouldings taper off into the C-pillar.  And, so close to that is a funky rear light assembly, further cluttered by a built in spoiler.  They look more Hyundai-grade.  It would be a "no go" for me.  The car looks better up front.  Why can't automakers design car envelopes that look balanced?

You mean it snows where you live?  J/K.

this Cadillac platform has always been ergonomically challenged.  Low firewall, cramped with a big driveshaft tunnel.....badly shaped floor.  Hip point way too low.  You really have to twist, contort, and wrench yourself into the seat and God forbid if you are a chunky midwesterner over the crest of 50 and not some lithe millenial with lots of flexibility from yoga.

The platform is shared also with Camaro so they did not design the cars on this platform for older large person comfort which IMHO is partly why Cadillac sales flounder.  

In contrast, when i went to the auto show back in early March before it got shut down they had the CT4 and CT5 there and there was a lot of interested folks checking them out....particularly youngsters.  Maybe Cadillac IS on to something here.  Those youngsters actually like the cramped interior and low rider seat.

Edited April 19, 2020 by regfootball

[oldshurst442]

3 minutes ago, regfootball said:

In contrast, when i went to the auto show back in early March before it got shut down they had the CT4 and CT5 there and there was a lot of interested folks checking them out....particularly youngsters.  Maybe Cadillac IS on to something here.  Those youngsters actually like the cramped interior and low rider seat.

In contrast to this part of your post, I was at the Montreal auto show in January...mind you I didnt spend all that much time at the show, nor at Cadillac's display...but at the little time I did spend getting in and out of the CT4-V and CT5-V,  there were virtually NOBODY, young or old, looking at these brand new offerings. Everybody, I mean everybody was at the Escalade. That would be this generation Escalade. Not the next gen that debuts in 2021. There was no mention of the new gen. Yeah...that's right, Montrealers young and old were salivating over the old, soon to be replaced 'Slade. 

A few boomers were checking out the XT6. 

I dont remember seeing the XT4. Not that I was looking out for it either.  Im sure it was there, but I didnt really care.

I was sad that literally nobody was checking out the new sedans.  V versions too...  But then again, it was only a small snippet of time as I spent no more than 5-7 minutes at Cadillac.  But I kid you not, folk were pushing each other to get into the 5 year old 'Slade.  

I was smitten with both V cars. More with the CT5.  I kinda wanted the Blackwing version CT5 to have the actual Blackwing V8 under the hood, because its a real deal Cadillac engine in a Cadillac car, but the next gen LT4 that will power the CT5 Blackwing may be a better engine choice overall.  Corvette powered anything turn out to be awesome machines. That would also include LS/LT engine swapped foreign badged cars as well!  

I do see your complaint about the  low firewall, cramped with a big driveshaft tunnel syndrome. At 5 foot 6and a half inches tall that I am, I too am not comfortable with it, although not as much as you as I am...well...short. 

[regfootball]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

In contrast to this part of your post, I was at the Montreal auto show in January...mind you I didnt spend all that much time at the show, nor at Cadillac's display...but at the little time I did spend getting in and out of the CT4-V and CT5-V,  there were virtually NOBODY, young or old, looking at these brand new offerings. Everybody, I mean everybody was at the Escalade. That would be this generation Escalade. Not the next gen that debuts in 2021. There was no mention of the new gen. Yeah...that's right, Montrealers young and old were salivating over the old, soon to be replaced 'Slade. 

A few boomers were checking out the XT6. 

I dont remember seeing the XT4. Not that I was looking out for it either.  Im sure it was there, but I didnt really care.

I was sad that literally nobody was checking out the new sedans.  V versions too...  But then again, it was only a small snippet of time as I spent no more than 5-7 minutes at Cadillac.  But I kid you not, folk were pushing each other to get into the 5 year old 'Slade.  

I was smitten with both V cars. More with the CT5.  I kinda wanted the Blackwing version CT5 to have the actual Blackwing V8 under the hood, because its a real deal Cadillac engine in a Cadillac car, but the next gen LT4 that will power the CT5 Blackwing may be a better engine choice overall.  Corvette powered anything turn out to be awesome machines. That would also include LS/LT engine swapped foreign badged cars as well!  

I do see your complaint about the  low firewall, cramped with a big driveshaft tunnel syndrome. At 5 foot 6and a half inches tall that I am, I too am not comfortable with it, although not as much as you as I am...well...short. 

Yeah I am 6'1 and a waist and belly that is too large and even if i were thin again the ingress and egress and driving position in the car is something you'd want in a sports car, not a luxury brand sedan.  Its not befitting daily luxury transport.   People rip front drive platforms but remember back to the larger cab forward front drivers....... more comfort and room.  That said, the Ct6 is woefully comfy, but yeah, Cadillac decides to kill that car.  

Edited April 19, 2020 by regfootball

[oldshurst442]

Sometimes Cadillac decisions make no sense. A brand new, V8 engine, that Cadillac engineers done, with specs that Europeans do to their turbo V8 cars, that seem to fancy European car aficionados that Cadillac desperately  want to attract, and 1 year and a half of offering said V8 engine, they kill it.  

I dont understand any of it. The ending of the CT6 (in North America) and the killing off the Blackwing V8 engine.  

They spent literally billions of dollars on the CT6 dating back to the bankruptcy and then some more billions (OK...maybe millions) on the new V8 but then they dont do anything with either.

I get that they want to spend more billions on electric vehicles for their future going forward, but it still doesnt make sense. 

Why?

They spent billions more on a no charge diesel option Escalade. That would be a new engine offering...    DIESEL???!!!

1. Is there a market for a diesel  engine in an Escalade?  A 6 cylinder engine at that?  

a) maybe GM/Cadillac did a marketing research analysis...

b) BUT I THOUGHT THAT CADILLAC WAS TO GO EV ALL THE WAY???!!!   DIESEL???!!!  On a supposedly luxury product???!!!  For North America???!!!      

2 .   VW and Mercedes have had their diesel scandals recently which made a lot of noise here and in Europe.  Cadillac had resisted diesel all these years/decades after their own diesel scandal of the 1980s...   Cadillac was ahead of their own bloody curve for their own bloody EV image a decade ago when they offered a light hybrid system in their Escalade and now they want to peddle diesel when they want to go all out EV going forward?

 

 

 

 

 

[riviera74]

10 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Sometimes Cadillac decisions make no sense. A brand new, V8 engine, that Cadillac engineers done, with specs that Europeans do to their turbo V8 cars, that seem to fancy European car aficionados that Cadillac desperately  want to attract, and 1 year and a half of offering said V8 engine, they kill it.  

I dont understand any of it. The ending of the CT6 (in North America) and the killing off the Blackwing V8 engine.  

They spent literally billions of dollars on the CT6 dating back to the bankruptcy and then some more billions (OK...maybe millions) on the new V8 but then they dont do anything with either.

I get that they want to spend more billions on electric vehicles for their future going forward, but it still doesnt make sense. 

Why?

They spent billions more on a no charge diesel option Escalade. That would be a new engine offering...    DIESEL???!!!

1. Is there a market for a diesel  engine in an Escalade?  A 6 cylinder engine at that?  

a) maybe GM/Cadillac did a marketing research analysis...

b) BUT I THOUGHT THAT CADILLAC WAS TO GO EV ALL THE WAY???!!!   DIESEL???!!!  On a supposedly luxury product???!!!  For North America???!!!      

2 .   VW and Mercedes have had their diesel scandals recently which made a lot of noise here and in Europe.  Cadillac had resisted diesel all these years/decades after their own diesel scandal of the 1980s...   Cadillac was ahead of their own bloody curve for their own bloody EV image a decade ago when they offered a light hybrid system in their Escalade and now they want to peddle diesel when they want to go all out EV going forward?

 

 

 

 

 

Me neither.  Keep the Blackwing V8 and dump the diesel.  Diesel engines rarely sell here in the USA anyway.

[balthazar]

Cadillac didn't have a 'diesel scandal' circa '78-82.
What they had was a non-turbo diesel with extremely low output.

[oldshurst442]

14 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac didn't have a 'diesel scandal' circa '78-82.
What they had was a non-turbo diesel with extremely low output.

Well...this non scandal cost them slightly in the image department in that the engine had reliability problems and those that bought Cadillac cars with diesels in them left them with a sour taste in their mouths concerning Cadillac cars that actually Cadillac still suffers from that bad image...and hence diesel scandal from my end.  So...more of a fiasco rather than a scandal and I get that.  But two sides of the same coin nonetheless. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by oldshurst442

[trinacriabob]

2 hours ago, regfootball said:

they did not design the cars on this platform for older large person comfort which IMHO is partly why Cadillac sales flounder.  

In contrast, when i went to the auto show back in early March before it got shut down they had the CT4 and CT5 there and there was a lot of interested folks checking them out....particularly youngsters.  Maybe Cadillac IS on to something here.  Those youngsters actually like the cramped interior and low rider seat.

The question is whether they can be all things to all people in the luxury car segment, and still pull in the younger segment that has helped the brand so much.  They can probably do it through varying the themes of different models within a particular model, just how the Charger goes from a base sedan with a V6 up to some souped up renditions with V8s putting out ungodly amounts of horsepower - like 707 HP.  

The last LaCrosse was not looking to pull in the younger market.  It was happy to keep the middle-aged and senior market.  It, too, had a low rider seat and high console that was not amicable to people of even medium height nor people who could still drive but had physical limitations.

Cadillac needs to take the pencil out and make some minor adjustments, get better market focus feedback, and have some of its designers be slapped upside the head.

[Robert Hall]

56 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Cadillac didn't have a 'diesel scandal' circa '78-82.
What they had was a non-turbo diesel with extremely low output.

They also had the V8-6-4 fiasco in '81. 

[oldshurst442]

Im sorry. I did not mean to go down a negative path with Cadillac.  We should celebrate these new Cadillacs. All these fiascos are in the past. The diesel route is just confusing to me...but in no way a fiasco.   

We have to celebrate you, Caddy!  We have to praise you like we should! 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by oldshurst442

[ocnblu]

There's a render going around the interwebs of a CT5 wagon, along with a rumor of production.  Looks cool as heck.

[David]

CT sedans suck, Cadillac has FAILED MISERABLY in regards to their product lines. The cars are not Cadillac but European wanna be crap!

XT series are piss poor badge jobs of Chevrolet CUVs. This is a pathetic reboot of the 80's/90's and honestly they clearly did not get any proper leadership yet to lead Cadillac in the right direction. They hire an Idiot European who attempts to remake Cadillac as a BMW/MB wanna be auto company and moves it's HQ to NY wasting millions if not Billions when they could have brought out a proper far better product line.

2020 Escalade while selling has even been fucked up by the new political ass kissing idiot they put in charge. Why do I say they fucked up the Escalade?

Simple, while there is much to love about it and I have first hand experience driving a brand new 2020 Escalade for a week from my dealership as they serviced my auto this is what I came away with:

As I posted in the April auto thread, I had this ESV to drive for the week.

Pro's 

• Lots of power, easy to get up over 100 before you know it.
• Interior layout is very nice, love the Mocha / Black accent interior
• Gobs of room to haul stuff. Used this to pick up supplies for all the senior parents and deliver them during this quarantine period.
• Style is spot on for this Escalade.
• Hidden external steps, gotta love having it pop out and then retrack in. Keeps a very nice clean side look.
• Presence, you could not have more. The king is here and others get out of the way as you drive it down the highway.
• Nav / radio system worked flawlessly and love the wireless charging phone pad
• HUD, this is a must have on any luxury auto, I love the HUD.
• Yes many other things to like about this Escalade

And yet there are some glaring issues:

Con's

• 2020 and no Android or Apple phone play, Yes we get it in the 2021 version but come on, this is 2020 and the tech has been out for years.
• Seats, while nice leather, they are flat, not supportive and on a 300 mile road trip I did in this one, it made my bum num. My 2006 has far superior seats. It is Cadillac and should be supportive, comfy seats that you do not get num or fatigued while riding in.
• Steering wheel, They totally went backwards and Cheap here. My 2006 has wood and the proper knobs on the back side that fits your fingers ensuring maximum grip while minimizing tension on road trips, this was a poorly stitched leather slick steering wheel. Something you would also find on a Chevrolet. Sad.
• Last and the biggest complaint of mine, NO MAGNA RIDE! Yup, This is a luxury brand that should be tight and yet absorb the road imperfections. I went off a curb to see how the new system was like and was shocked to have it plop down hard. Got out, looked underneath and confirmed when I returned it to the dealership, that the base Escalades DO NOT come with Magna Ride, it is an option. As such, this Escalade rides like a pickup truck when Empty.

We are talking Cadillac and Cadillac DOES NOT have to cover what Buick and Chevrolet already sell nor GMC. These should be the maximum ultimate Luxury rides.

Right now Cadillac is Failing us the customers with piss poor re-badges of Chevrolet products and if they do this with their EV line, they will truly fail.

Cadillac should be building LUXURY auto's which will NOT be for EVERYONE.

Take the CT current products and sell them at Chevrolet at a proper Chevrolet price and I bet they will move big time.

Then using names, bring back full size luxury sedans that can via a nob or switch go from Touring, sport and performance mode and yet are roomy and spacious inside.

Cadillac Cars and SUV/CUV should be a step apart from Buick, GMC and Chevrolet.

[balthazar]

3 hours ago, dfelt said:

CT sedans suck, Cadillac has FAILED MISERABLY in regards to their product lines. The cars are not Cadillac but European wanna be crap!

XT series are piss poor badge jobs of Chevrolet CUVs. This is a pathetic reboot of the 80's/90's and honestly they clearly did not get any proper leadership yet to lead Cadillac in the right direction. They hire an Idiot European who attempts to remake Cadillac as a BMW/MB wanna be auto company and moves it's HQ to NY wasting millions if not Billions when they could have brought out a proper far better product line.

IMO, you are incorrect in your assessment.
Look at the situation like a plotted graph. The German twins were miles apart from where Cadillac / Lincoln / Imperial were, but as you plot the lines, they converge. BMW/MB gained amenities, luxury, power and detailing where they had very little or none, and Cadillac adopted more 'international' sizing & styling. Cadillac has ALWAYS adapted to markets & times- look at all the different variations of their logo over the years.  It is NOT 'Cadillac building a copy of the Germans'; it is simply that the plotted lines have converged. That is; unless you are also of the opinion that BMW/MB are 'building copies of American luxury cars'... then I'm OK with your assessment.

XT CUVs are quite obviously not rebadges- it's ridiculous to call them that. And they compete very well sales-wise in their segments, which are heavily populated. They're not for me, but obviously they're successful (not a 'fail').

[riviera74]

9 minutes ago, balthazar said:

IMO, you are incorrect in your assessment.
Look at the situation like a plotted graph. The German twins were miles apart from where Cadillac / Lincoln / Imperial were, but as you plot the lines, they converge. BMW/MB gained amenities, luxury, power and detailing where they had very little or none, and Cadillac adopted more 'international' sizing & styling. Cadillac has ALWAYS adapted to markets & times- look at all the different variations of their logo over the years.  It is NOT 'Cadillac building a copy of the Germans'; it is simply that the plotted lines have converged. That is; unless you are also of the opinion that BMW/MB are 'building copies of American luxury cars'... then I'm OK with your assessment.

XT CUVs are quite obviously not rebadges- it's ridiculous to call them that. And they compete very well sales-wise in their segments, which are heavily populated. They're not for me, but obviously they're successful (not a 'fail').

I agree, but maybe dfelt wants Cadillac to be the best America has to offer, not just simply copy what German luxury has done.  Cadillac has come a long way from 2003, let alone the 70s and 80s.  Since Cadillac is selling in China as well as North America, Cadillac has to be competitive against the Germans, who currently dominate the luxury car market.  It has been said that without the USA the last 40 years and China the last 20, VW/Audi, BMW and MB would all be staring down the barrel (in one sense or another) of liquidation.  Literally a case of EXPAND OR DIE.  There are a lot of people who believe that what American brands we still have should exclusively serve the customers of the good old USA.  In 1970 that was normal.  In 2020 (covid-19 aside) that is simply no longer possible.

[balthazar]

22 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

I agree, but maybe dfelt wants Cadillac to be the best America has to offer, not just simply copy what German luxury has done.

I’m not seeing how what you said is different than what dfelt said.

Let me put it this way; what has “German luxury done”??

Edited April 19, 2020 by balthazar

[riviera74]

7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

I’m not seeing how what you said is different than what dfelt said.

Let me put it this way; what has “German luxury done”??

Most luxury vehicles prior to the 80s sold here were soft luxury cruisers.  BMW especially introduced the concept of luxury and performance in the same vehicle.  Would a Cadillac Seville from 1980 have the same performance characteristics of the same year BMW 3 series? I think not.

[balthazar]

But: would a 1980 3-series rightly be classified as a luxury car? Or a 5-series?

An ‘80 s-class isn’t even a propoer luxury car.
converging plot lines. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by balthazar

[oldshurst442]

Nope.  The 3 Series BMW was just an econobox that had sporty intentions. 

And sporty I mean they handled corners better than American land yachts.   But that is not a strike against American land yachts.  To be fair, our roads for the most part were and still are relatively straight and our highway systems were and still are meant to connect vast amounts of square miles connecting vast amounts of American and Canadian territories connecting each of us together connecting both our countries together between ourselves as Americans or Canadians from coast to coast East and West and North to South and between BOTH of our countries crossing THE longest UNDEFENDED border between 2 countries.

The BMW ride that is supposed sporty is just stiffer springs.  THAT is what is classified as luxury?

American land yachts were PURPOSEFULLY meant  wallow as to absorb any bumps on our very straight roads making our car rides as SMOOTH as possible and THAT was the philosophy.  Riding on a cloud meant that THAT was the LUXURY of traveling LONG distances to achieve FAMILY vacations...

The 3 Series and its predecessor had SPARTAN econobox interiors.  INCLUDING 1980s M3s.   The E30 1990 3 Series started getting better interiors...but please...do NOT say that a 3 Series was luxury then.

Its like going back to the taxi cab M-B E Class discussion. 

The high price tags is because foreign cars are taxed to death in North America.  But THAT also goes for American cars abroad.

@  5:38   in the video, the dude says the C8 will cost 46 000 pounds, in US money, but it will be much more than that in the UK when Chevrolet will be selling them there. 70 000-75 000 pounds to be exact he says.   And hence why Mercedes cars in the 70s were almost double the price from Cadillacs.  Same thing. But NEVER almost twice the luxury. Maybe 50% the luxury the Cadillacs had...  

Price...has NOTHING to do with luxury was the argument....  I would agree!   

Its just too phoquing bad Cadillac and GM and the other Detroit makers stooped soooooo low to phoque up their cars from the mid 1970s-late 1990s. 

But...that has all changed.  Its weird looking at a BMW 3 Series today. It looks to be BIGGER than a 1980s and 1990s 5 Series.  It has been...Americanized both in size, weight AND driving characteristics.  Weird...huh?

 

 

[Robert Hall]

The 3 series wasn't luxury in 1980..the 6 series and 7 series were the luxury BMWs....the 3 series was a compact sports sedan, the 5 was a midsize sports sedan... nothing really like them from the domestics in 1980.. Cadillac and Lincoln were in the large traditional floaty luxury sedan niche. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Robert Hall

[ocnblu]

For the last several years, Lincoln has been producing American style luxury.  And for that, they should be respected.  Cadillac has continued to try to chase some elusive German "ideal" that is indeed false.

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, ocnblu said:

For the last several years, Lincoln has been producing American style luxury.  And for that, they should be respected.   

They have done a very good job of that IMO...would like to see some new sedans or coupes from them, but alas, I don't see that happening. 

[ocnblu]

Maybe social distancing will change everything... SUV/CUV will have too many seats... the four seater personal luxury coupe is ripe for a comeback!

[riviera74]

51 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

Maybe social distancing will change everything... SUV/CUV will have too many seats... the four seater personal luxury coupe is ripe for a comeback!

Sorry dude, but coupes of all car stripes are dead.  Coupe-style SUVs are in and those are terrible.  We need to leave the personal luxury four seater coupe where it belongs: in the 1970s.

[ocnblu]

[Robert Hall]

32 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

  We need to leave the personal luxury four seater coupe where it belongs: in the 1970s.

Maybe..but the Bentley Continental GT, Mercedes S-class coupe, BMW 8-series are modern PLCs, esp. the first two.... Cadillac could use a flagship luxury GT coupe ala the Elmiraj...and a convertible version. 

[balthazar]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

The 3 series wasn't luxury in 1980..the 6 series and 7 series were the luxury BMWs....the 3 series was a compact sports sedan, the 5 was a midsize sports sedan... nothing really like them from the domestics in 1980.. Cadillac and Lincoln were in the large traditional floaty luxury sedan niche. 

In '80, a 6- or 7-series wasn't truly in the luxury class yet.

But more to the point, why aren't the '80 BMWs in the same vein as they were then? Spartan, lacking details & amenities, pedestrian-grade interiors? Where are those cars today? Generic, forgettable, plebian, focused on chassis dynamics with moderate performance at best?

They're gone.

[riviera74]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

Maybe..but the Bentley Continental GT, Mercedes S-class coupe, BMW 8-series are modern PLCs, esp. the first two.... Cadillac could use a flagship luxury GT coupe ala the Elmiraj...and a convertible version. 

Do any of those models sell in significant numbers?  I know that their CUV/SUV versions do.

 

3 hours ago, balthazar said:

In '80, a 6- or 7-series wasn't truly in the luxury class yet.

But more to the point, why aren't the '80 BMWs in the same vein as they were then? Spartan, lacking details & amenities, pedestrian-grade interiors? Where are those cars today? Generic, forgettable, plebian, focused on chassis dynamics with moderate performance at best?

They're gone.

Of course those models are long gone.

To justify high pricing now (as opposed to 40 years ago), BMW had to raise their game to be luxury performance.  That includes interiors that no one in a time machine from 1985 would recognize, especially one from a 3 or 5 series from that time.

[balthazar]

^ Obviously.
So... then... how have the Germans justified 'building carbon copies of Cadillacs'?

OR! "lines converge".  < --------------  I'm going with this one.

But that means the [erroneous] narrative that 'Cadillac is chasing the Germans' must be thrown out the window. Forever.

[riviera74]

9 hours ago, balthazar said:

^ Obviously.
So... then... how have the Germans justified 'building carbon copies of Cadillacs'?

OR! "lines converge".  < --------------  I'm going with this one.

But that means the [erroneous] narrative that 'Cadillac is chasing the Germans' must be thrown out the window. Forever.

That narrative comes from automotive journalists who were ultimately frustrated race car drivers.  THAT is why they fell in love with the BMW 2002 and then the 3 series: so many of them would have done anything to be an F1 driver for a living.  Instead, they look at Lincoln and Cadillac and are bored to tears.  That is where the "Cadillac is chasing the Germans" meme started.  It has since been reflected in the sales charts the last 20 years or so.  Sometimes life follows the imposed narrative.

[David]

Cadillac needs to first decide if they want to be a mass auto sales machine with everyone else or if they want to be a true luxury auto maker that people attain to want!

I would rather they do the last one.

[oldshurst442]

Ill repeat.

Stiffer springs equate to luxury?    According to whom?   (rhetorical question...but there are many reasons and people who accepted that characteristic to be the new definition of luxury and Cadillac and Lincoln was left out in the cold...)  

Ill give kudos to BMW that took that narrative and ran with it and made not only Cadillac chase them, and KIA, and Lexus, BUT Mercedes AND Audi as well.  

BMW had a good  awesome strategy with the help of these American car magazines.  

But the narrative of what is luxury  has changed again as times have changed...again.   BMW had a hand in that too, unbeknownst to them.  They muddied their offerings, made them more traditionally American with American style luxury of yore...with their bigly 7 Series and their opulent SUVs. And SUVs are more of an American thing than anything else...  

And BECAUSE the narrative of luxury being redefined again, THAT is why high priced, high content, more opulent versions of work horse AMERICAN pick-up trucks ARE luxury in TODAY's 2020 world...   After all, their luxury branded SUV counterparts that are based on the workhorse SUVs which are based on the workhorse pick-up trucks ARE luxury, non? 

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, non?   (regarding literally econobox BMW 3 Series and taxi cab M-B E Class...)

Back to Cadillac.   

Cadillac does indeed need to STOP trying to sell to the lowest common denominator and trying to sell to the masses. THAT means that their vehicles...ALL OF THEM...ALL TRIMS AND MODELS....need to be TOP NOTCH which ALSO means that the price tags NEED to go up up up.     Which also means that their sales WILL NOT be high...

Price tags do NOT reflect quality and luxury.   Quality and...the CURRENT definition of luxury define luxury.  But prices NEED to reflect that.  Therefore...price tags NEED to be high.  

But that means that regular folk...middle class folk and lower classes, even high end middle class folk NEED NOT APPLY...which means that sales are going to be limited...but that is OK.  THAT is what is needed for Cadillac. 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by oldshurst442

[riviera74]

5 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Ill repeat.

Stiffer springs equate to luxury?    According to whom?   (rhetorical question...but there are many reasons and people who accepted that characteristic to be the new definition of luxury and Cadillac and Lincoln was left out in the cold...)  

Ill give kudos to BMW that took that narrative and ran with it and made not only Cadillac chase them, and KIA, and Lexus, BUT Mercedes AND Audi as well.  

BMW had a good  awesome strategy with the help of these American car magazines.  

But the narrative of what is luxury  has changed again as times have changed...again.   BMW had a hand in that too, unbeknownst to them.  They muddied their offerings, made them more traditionally American with American style luxury of yore...with their bigly 7 Series and their opulent SUVs. And SUVs are more of an American thing than anything else...  

And BECAUSE the narrative of luxury being redefined again, THAT is why high priced, high content, more opulent versions of work horse AMERICAN pick-up trucks ARE luxury in TODAY's 2020 world...   After all, their luxury branded SUV counterparts that are based on the workhorse SUVs which are based on the workhorse pick-up trucks ARE luxury, non? 

What is good for the goose is good for the gander, non?   (regarding literally econobox BMW 3 Series and taxi cab M-B E Class...)

Back to Cadillac.   

Cadillac does indeed need to STOP trying to sell to the lowest common denominator and trying to sell to the masses. THAT means that their vehicles...ALL OF THEM...ALL TRIMS AND MODELS....need to be TOP NOTCH which ALSO means that the price tags NEED to go up up up.     Which also means that their sales WILL NOT be high...

Price tags do NOT reflect quality and luxury.   Quality and...the CURRENT definition of luxury define luxury.  But prices NEED to reflect that.  Therefore...price tags NEED to be high.  

But that means that regular folk...middle class folk and lower classes, even high end middle class folk NEED NOT APPLY...which means that sales are going to be limited...but that is OK.  THAT is what is needed for Cadillac. 

 

High profit margins over everything.  Opulence above all.  Sounds great.  So what is the plan for turning Lincoln and especially Cadillac into Bentley or Rolls Royce?

[oldshurst442]

40 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

High profit margins over everything.  Opulence above all.  Sounds great.  So what is the plan for turning Lincoln and especially Cadillac into Bentley or Rolls Royce?

Easy peasy.

Cease and desist with all base XT4s and CT4s.  Dont even consider any vehicle below that threshold.  

XT4s and CT4s could exist, but high end ones.  We all bemoan how cheap the materials are  in these. Well...high end materials in them. Top of the line powertrains in them, whatever that may mean for luxury in 2020.   No corporate shared engines in these Cadillacs.  Even if they are XT4s and CT4s...

YES...that means Cadillac and GM HAS to spend the money on Cadillac for R&D... No cheap bean counting... And hence the price tags will match the quality and technology and everything else that needs to align with what Cadillac as a true luxury brand needs to be.  IE:  HIGH PRICE TAGS MEANT FOR THE PEOPLE THAT ACTUALLY MAKE MONEY THAT PEOPLE IN THAT CLASS BRACKET COULD ACTUALLY AFFORD.   The middle class folk should NOT be a clientele for Cadillac...

THAT includes favorable lease deals. None of that.  THAT is what BMW and Mercedes do to sell more cars in America. Cadillac needs to get away from that.   

Rolls Royce and Ferrari do not have favorable lease deals. Neither should Cadillac.  Cadillac does NOT need to be boutique. But Cadillac does not need to be a car for everyone.  

 CT5s and XT5s and CT6s and XT6s is where Cadillac NEEDS to play in. But THOSE NEED to be top of the line, high quality.   XT4s and CT4s COULD exist for bread and butter purposes along with base CT5s and  base XT5s and base XT6s. But in THIS case, what I just said, about favorable leases and cheap interiors to support mass production to support every Tom Dick and Harry to buy them NEED NOT APPLY.  

Cadillacs bread and butter definition just means selling enough $50 000 and above price tagged cars to make enough profit to sustain HALO BOUTIQUE car production like a SIXTEEN, or even a CIEN and MOST DEFINITELY an EL MIRAJ and  CIEL where those could touch Rolls Royce price tags.  Which means that ONLY top of the  line availability of CT4s and XT4s, that go for 45 000-50 000 MINIMUM and BASE CT5s and XT5s and XT6s that START at $50 000-$55 000 will sell in only SMALL amounts. 

That means the other half of their line-up made up of high end CT5 Vs and XT5 Vs and CT6 Vs and XT6 Vs  and Escalades will ALL be at the 80 000- 100 000 or above price levels.  Which ALSO means Cadillac will NOT be selling a lot.  But enough to make BILLIONS in profit. 

And then the boutique cars that WILL be at Rolls Royce price levels. 

Marketing takes care of the image and gotta have it levels in richer than God sheeple. 

Something that Cadillac lacks...is marketing and that gotta have it image.

But...the product not only has to have that quality, luxury feels to them INSIDE...but the OUTSIDE has to SCREAM gotta have it too.

I said its easy peasy. Its not.  

The easy peasy part is to actually build the quality, the technology and the  luxury.  Eliminate the beancounting and you get the Corvette C8.   

The HARD part is to convince the people to buy your product. But you gotta start somewhere. And where to start is what I said.

ELIMINATE the cheap priced, cheap feeling XT4s and CT4s and base CT5s and XT5s and XT6s.  

START producing QUALITY HIGH END product THROUGH AND THROUGH WITH PRICE TAGS to match.

Cadillac aint doing that.  Not when they peddle XT4s...with Chevrolet price tags...and Chevrolet interiors to match that low price tag to sell to folk that would otherwise buy a Chevrolet or Honda but because they were enticed by a low lease price and now they could afford a "Cadillac".

A Cadillac by badge, but NOT but legacy, quality, luxury or even price tag...  

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by oldshurst442

[oldshurst442]

Lincoln got it right with the Continental. On the INSIDE. 

NOT on the outside. 

To use an extended Ford Fusion/Ford Edge platform that also houses the badge engineered Lincoln versions of those vehicles on that platform (CD4 platform) was the error.  The MKX and MKZ Lincolns are not 1980s bad for badge engineering from Detroit, but not worthy Lincolns either.  Whatever I said about Cadillac goes for Lincoln word for word...

The Continental should have been on a BESPOKE platform that would capture that presence that the concept had.  From the long wheelbase to the little details that made the difference for a true luxury vehicle but when they squeezed it into a FWD appliance platform, the Continental lost it all in translation. 

And THAT bespoke platform could have spawned OTHER high end Lincoln products. Instead of just using that "ONE FORD" mentality of a decade ago.

Notice that campaign slogan was ONE FORD.   

FORD

Lincoln is part of the FORD MOTOR COMPANY but a Lincoln is NOT a Ford...

Fixing Lincoln and Cadillac really shoudnt be difficult. 

But it takes MONEY to build them up and time.  Proper time to properly engineer proper Cadillacs and proper Lincolns WITHOUT the CHEAPSKATE BEANCOUNTING. 

Again....look at what Ford can do with a Ford GT and a GT350 and GT500 Mustang and Lincoln Navigator and THAT is how Lincoln could be propped up again.   Time and money well spent along with awesome marketing campaigns.   Lincoln as a brand could benefit from that kind of love that was given to the Mustang, GT, Navigator and Mach E...  Its up to FoMoCo and Lincoln leaders to do so...

 

[riviera74]

But will Ford and GM actually spend the cash necessary to implement those plans?  IDK

[oldshurst442]

35 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

But will Ford and GM actually spend the cash necessary to implement those plans?  IDK

Probably not, mate.  Especially now with this pandemic thing we all have to deal with.