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2020 is a grotesque anomaly, and you know that. FYI : Model S Plaid + is officially dead. IDK about the 'Plaid -'

Even when I worked for a supplier a few years back that dealt with Tesla, they were a mess. Been told that much has not changed either. They still change suppliers on a dime. And they barely keep the ones they have in the loop for changes that they do in their models! Elon needs to spend a bit more time running his car company than he does worrying about things like space. They really, really need folks in their company who have real auto company experience-so that they have both communication and proper layouts. It’s why things never really change with them. It’s the logistics that Ford and GM have that is going to whip Tesla hard. Ford is kinda struggling a bit with the E Mach- but they a making progress very quickly-something that Tesla has not really done for years. I too want to see Tesla to do fine- but they really need to get their “poop” together.......

Not The Same Thing And you’d do well to understand the difference between an E-Commerce company and a car company. You could not make a worse apples to oranges comparison.

I like Tesla. I got nothing BUT praise for Tesla cars. The sedans. A little less the Model 3, but I like Tesla. But I would NEVER buy a Tesla product. My partner has got the Model S. He loves it. He wants to change it for a newer Model S. But Im getting away from what I wanna say. And its got to do with what Balthy just said about the Plaid+ being dead. And the reason of why that Musk said is but one reason of several as to why I would NEVER buy from this guy... No need as Plaid speed is just so good? THAT is what he wants to say? Like go phoque yourself buddy! Your cars WERE good. Your cars WERE faster than everybody else. Technology catches up and OEMs have it figured out. Dodge didnt say we are not going to give you the Demon because the Hellcat is so good. Before Chevy and Ford could answer the Hellcat with their pony car offerings, Dodge went further berserk and gave us the Demon... The newer Porsche Taycan could barely beat the Model S. The Plaid speed probably could bitch slap the Taycan. The problem is, you just KNOW that Porsche is NOT standing still on this. But that is Porsche. Porsche made the boo boo in under-estimating Tesla. But I has a feeling when the next update of Taycan will happen, Porsche will leave Tesla in the dust... Why? In the automotive business, there is no room for cockiness. Musk will find this out soon enough. Porsche might be cocky in areas, but they improve and improve their sportscars upon the next gen. They dont rest on their laurels... Musk, by being this cocky, will get his clocked cleaned. The century old plus automakers have done these battles thousands of times before. THIS is why Dodge has Hellcatted the world and didnt waste time to Demonize it further... THAT is how Detroit does it. Ford has proven that Tesla tech can be replicated and be bettered. GM will prove that soon enough too. End of rant...

Tesla stock up 271% from its 52-wk low but is DOWN 33% from it'd peak. TSLA is rated 'overvalued' with a minus 14% return. It has never issued a dividend. It's price per earning ratio is a staggering 600:1 (because it doesn't make any money selling vehicles). General Motors stock is up 207% from it's 52-wk low, but is currently at it's peak. GM is rated 'undervalued' with a plus 13% return. Dividends are currently suspended (since 3/20). It's price per earning ratio is a solid 10.2. General Motors is doing fine.

Tesla made 721 million in profit in 2020, almost entirely due to the sale of intangible carbon credits. General Motors made 6.4 billion in profit in 2020. General Motors is doing fine. General Motors is 9 times more profitable than Tesla in 2020... 29 times more profitable if you lose the carbon credits at Tesla.

Tesla sales in 2020 up 50% Ford sales in 2020 down 16.1% GM sales in 2020 down 11.8% Toyota sales in 2020 down 11.3% Tesla is doing just fine.

But always at a net loss. And; Corporate numbers can be interesting, but they are far less significant than what we talk about here; brand numbers. 'Daimler' includes about half a dozen semi-truck brands, which obviously elevates their numbers. Q2 2020 Cadillac ATP was $59,803.

That’s actually a 100% increase (1%+1%). SALES increased by 50%. You do get that as a percentage, Tesla’s marketshare increased partially BECAUSE other OEMs declined, right? As for ‘fastest growing’- that happened in 2019, when sales grew by nearly 300%. 50% sounds pretty tame in comparison…

^ Agreed RE a sub $40K Cadillac. When Mercedes brought out the $29K CLA, I almost couldn't believe it. (I could, actually, because Daimler will do anything to make a buck). But Mercedes = General Motors, 'A car for every purse & purpose' approach. In other words; not a luxury brand. Cadillac should stay exclusively upper tier. I argued against both the CT4 and XT4 as unnecessary.

The irony in both of those statements made by him is quite laughable. You can't be luxury and bargain bin at the same time. That has never worked out well for any brand. I don't like Cadillac having anything priced under $40K (although good luck actually finding one that cheap) while calling themselves a luxury brand. Ever since the Cimmaron days, that has been a problem for them in one fashion or another. Just my personal opinion.

No idea why Tesla would bring out a cheaper car than the $39K Model 3, especially if they are trying to paint a 'luxury brand' image. Plus, it'd torpedo their ATP.

• Starting MSRP price is immaterial. GMC Sierra starts at $31,795 but the bulk of them sticker for over 50% higher than that, and reach to over 150% of that. Are we going to only talk about the nearly non-existent $31K ones like that's what's out there selling? Tesla's ATP is only a few thousand higher than all of General Motors, Ford, Stellantis and VW.

No one is buying the Jaguar i-Pace, that car flopped from day one. Maybe because it is ugly and overpriced or maybe because it says Jaguar on it, and the Model Y says Tesla on it. If you buy a Tesla, you are cutting edge, tech savvy and cool, if you buy a Jaguar you have to spend the next however many years explaining to people why you bought a Jaguar. Everyone says the Mach-E is good, but it is also one product, and I know Ford will has more coming. But it is still a Ford, not a Tesla, and Tesla will always have faster, cooler, more tech loaded, more expensive cars than Ford, so Tesla will be a more aspirational brand. Ford isn't going to build $150k+ EV's running sub 10 second quarter miles and getting headlines, so Tesla will always have the image advantage. This is a general problem for a lot of brands is lack of good halo product. Probably about half the car companies out there lack a good top level halo car that really lifts the brand.

WOW, You really do not understand investing nor the finicky nature of the stock market. Past performance does not guarantee future returns. 2020 2021 As one can see here Tesla took off during 2020 pandemic and went to the stars. Then in 2021 they pretty much are flaming out back into the Atlantic. Yes still better at 600 per share than the 87.48 of where they started 2020, but from the high of over 900, the drop is still very big.

What was Mercedes' ATP??

So now that you realized that you were wrong about the ATPs, you’re going to make excuses about Benz having to sell vans and thus skewing their numbers? LMAO! The Metris at the same price as the A-Class? That takes a big ole dump on your dropped average claim unless you want to also make the case that their cheap entry line FWD A-Class is also skewing the average. Guess it never occurred to you that you already made these two claims (at one time or another): 1.) Cadillac has three models starting in the 30s. And 2.) Cadillac also has only one model crossing the $100K threshold while Benz has at least five starting above that. That does not help your ATP excuse at all. Just stop it already with the ridiculous excuses. Tesla is still in the hole financially and have been since day one. They are not that fine.

Daimler is Mercedes cars and vans, those are US market numbers, and since the vans are cheaper than the cars, that would only drop their average. Much like BMW has Mini Cooper dragging down their average. Mercedes and BMW both have higher averages than Cadillac, both sell way more than Cadillac. ATP as I have said many times doesn't really matter that much, because all it measures is how well your low end cars sell vs your top end cars. If Chevrolet stopped selling all cars except Corvette, they could have a $75,000 ATP. But then 100% of Chevrolet dealers would go out of business. So who really cares that the brand ATP is? What matters is how much margin you can get in a given segment or on a given car. Why does Tesla outsell Cadillac if Tesla is so bad? The point was made that GM and Ford have superior supply chains and logistics than Tesla. Yet it is GM and Ford suffering on supply chain right now, not Tesla. Tesla has its own manufacturing issues, but their supply chain is holding up better than others.

Way to go with missing the point again and going off on Tangent. Jim Farley and Mary Barra have both worked their way up, they are no over educated care taker of a major brand and both have worked in growing companies. Not everyone can be Elon, Steve, Bill or Jeff and they are the Exception, not the rule to starting a company and growing it into a monster company. As a High Tech worker that has worked at no less than 30 start ups, half having died or the technology was bought by bigger companies, the other half can be put into two groups, those that grew and those that are still small. Many start up visionaries lack the ability to grow a technology to a global size company and have stay small and known as a boutique company. The other 25% also had smart leadership but knew their limits and were bought by larger companies that could grow them. Example is I worked for Isilon, a network attached unstructured storage company. We grew to almost $500 million in Sales. It was stretching the ability of the executive team which had no experience with anything that big or bigger. In comes EMC and buys up the company. Most executive leadership team honored their corporate contract for a year, but then left with their money. The rest of us making a little bit, but not able to retire stayed on to grow the business and under EMC leadership we became a $1.5 billion a year product in 2yrs. Then Dell Technologies comes along and buys EMC merging it in and now we have doubled in size again in the last 2 years. There are those that can grow a small business into a monster enterprise and those that cannot. Tesla under Musk is struggling and while he has the Golden mouth to get people to pay crazy stock prices and finance his business, this is the biggest he has ever dealt with as he took the easy way out to riches but selling out his own tech startup as he was challenged with growing it to be even bigger. Two different skill sets between a CEO like Jim or Mary and Musk. Right now Tesla stock price is going down, sales are going down, ability to compete and grow in a very competitive business segment seems to be maxing out Musk's skill set. Who knows how long he will last before he takes his money and runs. He has done it before and I expect he will do it again.

That should read “feature”, not “gesture”. Thanks again autocorrect. You do get that those issues are not a fault of Ford or GM but more a result of a quick bounce back economy that is outpacing the supply of certain components, which faaaar different than the host issues with Tesla right? Please tell me you’re not conflating the two.

Yes depending on the source, a few dollars difference: Average New-Vehicle Prices Drop 2.3% in Q1 Contributing to Improved Vehicle Affordability - Cox Automotive Inc. (coxautoinc.com) $40,472 up 4.3% from 2020 for March 2021. New Models entering the BEV segment are driving down prices and Tesla is having the largest price drop on ATP. Full report is here: Average New-Vehicle Prices Remain Above $40,000 Threshold, Increase More Than 4% Year-Over-Year, According to Kelley Blue Book - Apr 15, 2021 (kbb.com) A more accurate look is by segment: Very interesting assessment of the BEV segment. QUOTE: While electrified vehicle consideration increases, automakers have continued producing more affordable options. Ford has introduced the Mustang Mach-E, which is reasonably priced with an average transaction price of $56,000 in March 2021, just above the segment average. The new Volkswagen ID.4, which began sales in Q1, is transacting at $45,287. Additionally, because Tesla is the brand with the majority market share, the drop in price for the Model 3 (down 7% year-over-year) and the introduction of the Model Y (priced at $54,000) has shifted the average transaction price of the segment as a whole. Lower prices for the Porsche Taycan also helped drive down average pricing in the segment.

Again, just throwing out numbers that ignore facts. Teslas sales are up due to adding more models not because of demand for prior existing models and you should understand the difference there. Comparing them to companies like Ford is equally ignorant of the facts. Up until the Mach-E, Ford didn't even compete with Tesla, not even cross shopped. However, since they do have the E-Mach, it makes the Y look like the hastily put together junk that it is and in places like Norway, where EVs ARE the dominant powertrain of choice, the Ford is beating Tesla. Now we get to soon the Lightning in the US show Tesla how it's done when it comes to pick ups (again, more than a century building the damn things). As far as Teslas "growth, that's been real easy to do when there were NO other real players in the EV market and again, a gain due to added models. Get back to me on that "growth" in about 2-3 years and everyone else is playing the same EV game as Tesla.

So let me rip apart this statement with my own knowledge of working in Tech since 1991! Tesla DOES NOT say Cool. If it was Cool, then every Introverted Tech Worker would sell everything they had to have a Tesla and that is not happening as Millions of millions of Tech Workers do not own a Tesla. Cutting Edge, yes in SOME areas! They lead in Battery and Electric drive train due to being out building them longer than everyone else. With that said, the Legacy OEMs have and will catch up and surpass them due to built in suppliers, manufacturing, Century plus of building auto's on a global scale of which Tesla does not have and has continued to show it fails at as they try to re-invent the wheel, rather than learn from the history of the auto industry what works. Cutting Edge? That is a very subjective statement as while there are millions that think Apple is the best and cutting edge, there are Billions that would rather own an Android based product and find they can do everything that Apple can do at a reduced price. So which company is more Cutting Edge. The one that sells in small volume at a mid-range price point with an Ass Hole for a marketing talking mouth piece as CEO or a Company that serves the masses, has some high end models, but also has a better grasp on mid range and low end models? Yes that last bit is personal opinion, but then you have not bothered to ever stick with facts as you make your own opinion based statements as facts with never actually posting factual info or links to stated trusted news sources to back up your opinion based statements. As such, Tesla will not go away in the next decade or two, but I doubt it will reach 2240 as the company it is today, a over priced independent stock trading company.

Agreed on all fronts there.

Cadillac ATP-$58K in 2021 (a record for them BTW) Tesla ATP-$50K (down $6K from 2020 despite them raising their prices on three or four occasions over the last year). So basically despite the fact that Tesla has two models above $100K (to the 1 Escalade for Cadillac over that price), Cadillac has a much higher ATP than Tesla which means that MOST of the Teslas sold are FAR south of $100K. What to try that again?

I am sure those five buyers will be very happy with their roadster. And David has shown you, MULTIPLE TIMES, how Tesla is slowly getting knocked off yet you (again) ignored those facts. That is their very definition of being a “fan boy”.

The F-150 Lightning doesn’t have to worry about an “image” problem unlike the vaporware Cybertruck and that is also a fact. The F-150 has a century of trust and a built in buyer already there while the Tesla has to start from scratch with that and hope that there are enough blind Tesla fans to support production of their four wheeled wedge. Btw, who gives two $h!s about the top tier price ($150K) when that applied to only ONE Tesla and especially when it’s reliability is no better than a $3 grand beater car. You have this grand delusion about Tesla that makes no sense and seems to be absent of facts and logic. You have been shown actual facts detailing the many issues with Tesla and their falling stock and market share. There is literally nothing you can state here that changes those facts.

So why mention vans in the first place? Because you were trying to paint a rosier picture of Mercedes. There was absolutely no reason to mention it otherwise. And again, Tesla is not a luxury car company. They are a boutique car company and there is a big difference there. Outside of the fact that they are EVs, Tesla is no more of a “luxury” brand than your average Ford Mustang Mach-E. Don’t believe me? Show me where any Tesla is more so a luxury car than your average Mercedes. Don’t worry. I’ll wait. of t So again, you ignore facts and instead think your opinion trumps that. He posted that to prove that Tesla is, in fact, losing market share yet you completely ignore that FACT to give us your OPINION. See the difference there or are those poms poms blinding you while you read?

Corolla Cross--for the buyer that finds the CH-R too weird and the Rav4 too big...

Yes, the OEMs definitely know how to build autos at volume...been doing it for decades. It seems Tesla is still very much a startup when it comes to their mindset...move fast and break things.

Anyone else see this yet? FIRST EVER!!!!! COROLLA CROSS!!!!

I had to respond. I grew up with JAL ... sort of. When I was a kid, I'd ride my bike with a friend to LAX and, at the time, JAL had a beautiful 747. Didn't they all? We'd go up to the theme building observation deck and got a 360 degree view of all the terminals and the runways. JAL does use the Boeing 787 Dreamliner quite a bit and I've seen it land at LAX. What a beautiful wing design. I really thought JAL would be a Boeing 777-X customer. I guess not. I am not an expert on the B-777, having only flown on it just once. United used the 2-5-2 seating on the one I flew on from DC to Denver and onward. I didn't like that layout. I am not a fan of Airbus because it's Airbus and not Boeing. I think this new A-350, with its "masked" cockpit window, is sort of ugly. But I can't argue with the seating layout of 2-4-2 on the A-330 and the A-340. The A-340 is fading away and it's my favorite Airbus product, with its 4 smaller engines, but operators don't like how thirsty it is. The A-330 is comfortable enough, except for one really long flight from Frankfurt to Calgary, with a connection back home to the Pac NW, that was too long and was pushing against strong headwinds. Boeing's "Dreamliner" is just that:

Kind of pimped, but damn, I love the lines on these. Also, I miss Ocnblu's automotive content. He liked these also and kind of turned me on to these.

Maybe the traditional OEM's will catch up and beat them. But is Tesla outselling all those other luxury brands only because there are people that will by an EV and not consider anything else, or because people think Tesla makes a better car and people prefer their car to the other guys? Once there are dozens of EV's out there, then we'll know. Although I disagree on having a mouth piece owner in charge compared to one of these care-takers of the thrown appointed by the board. Because guys like Elon, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Jeff Bezos, etc. those companies grew huge because they have the visionary inventor and marketer in charge. Jim Farley or Mary Barra (and no offense to them) could never start a company from scratch, or take some small company and blow it up into a global power. They are care takers, there must to maintain market share, they aren't visionaries that will come up with an idea or product and revolutionize an industry, like an Amazon, Facebook or Apple have done.

Telsa's market share in 2019 was 1% of the US market, at the end of 2020 they were at 1.99%. of the US market, so they doubled their overall market share. No one else is growing that fast. Telsa sales were up 50% in 2020 when most automakers were down, Ford was down 16.1% in 2020 for example.

3 of Cadillac's 6 vehicles have a base price lower than a Tesla Model 3. 5 of 6 Cadillacs have a base price lower than the base price of a Model Y. So if Tesla is in Ford pricing, what is Cadillac who is priced below where Tesla is? And same can be read for Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, Volvo as well. Most of their cars start under $50k, the cheapest Model Y you can get is $52k. And Tesla has a $200,000 car coming with that Roadster, none of those brands I mentioned could even think about a $200k car, Lexus can be thrown in there too, they all know it would flop hard. And I am not a Tesla fan boy, I am merely pointing out how they are selling a lot of cars are high prices and it is not going to be so easy to knock them off. That is why I separated the Vans division, Mercedes sold 325,000 units with Vans, and 274,000 without, compared to Tesla's 292,000. So Tesla beat them last year. If anyone is going to beat Tesla it will be Mercedes, but Mercedes is always going to operate at a higher price point than Tesla, although that didn't stop Mercedes from outselling all the other luxury brands in the past.

I got the April 2021 ATP's: Daimler $64,900 BMW Group $57,777 Tesla $50,705 Volvo $50,514 Ford $46,992 Stellantis $46,885 GM $46,800 VW Group $45,649 (includes, Audi, Porsche, etc) And the industry average was $40,476 which everyone else was below. So Tesla is 3rd in ATP (although JLR didn't have data on the list, I assume they are over $50k). So yes Tesla is only a few thousand higher, but it it still 3rd, or 4th assuming JLR is above them. And Tesla has the Cybertruck that will mostly be over $50k, and the low volume 200k Roadster coming and the Model S plaid which maybe they sold some in April, but they didn't deliver them, so I don't know how that works. Tesla did have a 10% drop in ATP from 2020, they were over $57,000 a year ago, but I imagine more lower priced Model 3's are available now than were last year. BMW was down 3%, Daimler up 1%, so Tesla was 3rd in ATP a year ago as well, it was the same order for the top 4 last year. Ford who can't build the F150 and GM who can't build the Corvette due to supplier issues are the poster children for logistics? F150 sales were down 30% in May because of supplier issues. But yes Tesla needs to get things together, but they seem to be improving at that.

And yet now a CLA costs more than Cadillac's most expensive sedan, yikes! But I do agree that Cadillac should be more up market, they should have made XT5 and XT6 on rear drive platforms, offered that Blackwing V8 in them. And they totally botched their sedan lineup over the past 10 years, which is why it is basically nothing now. Too late to fix all that with gas engine cars, but when they go to EV, that is their chance to re-boot, and XT4 and XT5 could be killed off and replaced with a small electric SUV, and CT5 and CT4 can be killed off and replaced with an EV sedan and both can start around $50k and go up to like 80k or something. Then you have no sub-$50k Cadillac even available. And they still need to go above the Escalade in price, and maybe that Celestiq will be that.

Daimler's ATP in April was $64,900 which is #1, and if you subtract the Metris and Sprinter that number is probably more like $70,000 for their passenger cars. You were the one that didn't want to count the Vans division sales since it gives them an extra 50,000 units and thus makes them #1 in sales. And good thing they make vans with e-commerce and home delivery hitting all time highs, their van sales were up like 50% last year. And good thing they make an A-class for people that want a small car and can't afford a car that is $75k, which is most people. I'd rather have the A-class and GLA in the lineup than not, because them being there isn't taking away the S-class or G-wagen, they didn't kill off some other product and instead put the A-class in instead. (and yeah they are killing some convertibles and stuff like the S-class coupe, but that is market trends, people don't buy cars like that anymore, they want crossover, crossover, crossover, which sucks IMO)