oldshurst442

Watching my teens grow up, observing their lack of interest in cars, and listening to them make fun of guys who have to have performance cars....I have to agree here. It's a crazy new world. Many kids today are not even in a hurray to get their license. That one blows me away. All the parents say similar too. And being that we are from the motor city, and that many of their parents work in the auto industry, does not seem to influence them. If anything, they are opposed to what their parents are drawn to. Well...Quebec teens actually are in love with the automobile...many of them customize their rides with performance parts....maybe not as crazy as SEMA show levels of customization...but its there... Vehicles of choice? Small 4 cylinder rides from Mazda 3 Speed, VW Golf GTi, Subaru BRZ and WRX, Acura Integras (yeah...there are still some out there, Honda Civic Si (yeah, the older 1990s models, Ford is fast becoming popular and no...not the Mustang. BMW E46s are popular with this crowd too...but the kids that own these usually do more visual stuff rather than performance oriented stuff... So...take what I have said however you like to take it...but...even in Quebec...where gasoline prices are sky high...hence the love for 4 cylinder cars being "souped up"...even as far North and exotic as...Quebec...there are youth that continue the car crazy trend...not all are into their phones...they are...with their phones too...and their phones help with the diagnostics of their performance with their little 4 banger ricers....so...

Working yourself up to Jay Leno levels....I think that is awesome!!!

As far as brand snobs go...sure, the BMW M2 and the BMW M4 and their less potent "civilian" versions will remain the soupe du jour cars with this crowd. What I am talking about is those guys and gals that seem to enjoy performance, will realize that the Camaro is actually the real deal... I talk to many teenagers, and the Challenger Hellcat is known to them...they hoon over that car as much as they do the JDM video game cars... They falsely assume it does not handle, they think it handles like a muscle car of yore...however, they understand that modern day American Muscle Cars do handle the twisties...and the Zeta Camaro is the reason for that... Some still hoon over the BMW "M" cars too...but not for performance reasons...for image... As far as German cars go...these kids hoon over a VW GTi...for performance reasons... These same teenagers...also like a BRZ...they recognize its handling...but they too...wished it had the engine from the WRX STi under the hood... Cadillac is not even in their radar... Going forward....I think the Alpha Camaro will start a new following...especially with the turbo 4 cylinder crowd... That 4 cylinder is best of both world's to get the hooning started... The Camaro has the Muscle Car legend name. It has the V8 to shame other cars...that kids will dream about...and... Its probably the 4 cylinder that will get the sales and the aftermarket improvements...that kids will aspire to...to get close to and beat those V8 performance numbers... 1. because they are used to and actually are comfortable with 4 cylinders. 2. because they grew up hatin' on V8 engines anyway...so it will be their pleasure to improve the stock turbo 4 cylinder in the Camaro...just to beat up on a V8... 3. it already comes with a Turbo from the factory... 4. its the Camaro they will most probably afford...either new or used...

When GM finally green lit the Chevy version to be sold to the public, GM itself handicapped the vehicle and limited its sales by only offering a V8. The Caprice is only for government fleets, etc... The Pontiac G8 never took off because of circumstance. Recession and bankruptcy and consequent killing off of Pontiac. Had GM offered multiple engine offerings, like the G8, and more so like the Zeta Camaro, (the Camaro's LFX 3.6 or even the slightly less powerful version in the Holden Commodore) then the SS would have sold more... I understand the whole economics part of the equation...built in Australia and shipped to America...not even in Canada...therefore too many options for the Chevy SS might have been a money losing proposition...so I get that... What I dont understand is why GM didnt commit to building the Chevy SS in Canada along side the Camaro? What I dont understand is why GM was afraid to commit? . Its understood that the G8 failed because of bad timing....or was it other reasons that GM knows and wont tell us? But yeah...we were lucky to have experienced these cars. I remember back in the day when we had the Cadillac Catera here in North America with that dog of an engine and I was reading about Middle Eastern Lumina SS cars, i was thinking to myself...WTF? I thought North America was home to the Muscle Car...what gives? And finally when Bob Lutz gave us...well Americans...the Monaro as the Pontiac GTO....I was super elated...because THIS is FINALLY a step FORWARD in getting back our muscle cars...the F-Body pony cars died...and the closest to a muscle car we had was those German cars from BMW with the "M" badge and AMG trimmed Mercedes Benzes... And then...the G8...WOW!!! And the Zeta platform....so I heard because I havent driven a Zeta car....Camaro/G8/SS or otherwise...is a solid performing platform. GM and Holden REALLY dialed it in... Its a shame that the SS and the Holden versions are going away. I feel the same way I felt when the F-Body was killed off. Yes I know...I said that I did not care for the SS or the G8 all that much...it still doesnt change the fact that I KNOW the SS and the G8 and obviously the Holden models were fantastically engineered muscle cars...and as of now...NOTHING is said to replace them...and THAT is extremely sad...

Is some of it the styling of the SS? I'll admit that I wasn't a fan of the styling. I think some small changes could make a big difference. It could be...it does not help that the styling of the Chevy SS is a tad on the conservative side. But then again...I wasnt all that smitten with the Pontiac G8 either...even in GXP trim...although the silhouette is sexy... It does not help either that the exterior colours GM offers on the Chevy SS are also on the conservative side...although that blue colour on the intro to the article is stunning...makes the car look more like a fun car to drive. I absolutely love the interior of the Chevy SS...miles apart from the Pontiac G8...and quite classy...for a Chevy...that interior is befitting for an Oldsmobile... I dont know...

Looks nice...with the nip and tuck...actually...looks a lot better...although subtle are the touches...makes a difference... However...there is still something about it that I cant put my finger on that I am not too excited about...and it has ALL the ingredients that I WANT from my muscle car daily driver...including the LS3...415HP/415 ft.lbs torque is plenty of ooomph that I require in a daily driver...no need for more... But somehow...I aint interested...maybe its because Im am soooooo excited by the Alpha Camaro...yet the Camaro...is a small 2 door sport coupe...not really my style...its a small pony car...mid-sized muscle is how I roll... I dont know...Im confused... I SHOULD BE LOVING THIS CAR ....but Im not.

I have to heartily disagree here. The 2002 Camaro had no bragging rights besides the straight line. Japanese cars for the same money handled better, felt better, braked better, and didn't have a penalty box interior. Asking if the new interior is worth $7000 more, I'd be inclined to say yes, absolutely, because I'm reminded how much I can't go back to an old GM interior every time I ride in my fiance's Cobalt, but that's a misleading question because it ignores everything else that's state of the art about the new car. Or the fact that the $30k V6 will nearly run LS1 numbers. Former Camaro engineers openly admitted that GM gave them just enough money to fully develop the drivetrain and virtually nothing else. This Camaro is the first one in decades with zero development compromises. The Alpha chasses, now THAT alone is worth $7000 over the old LRA sled. The rest of the 2016 Camaro package is icing on the cake. I will back you up on the 4 gen. I was sitting with Scott Settlmire the head of the F body program when he told us that the car got all the money for engine and suspension but not much else for the details and quality inside. He said "This is why your power window fail". I think once people get to really see the new car here and drive them they will find the first most completed Camaro every built. Like the C7 while not perfect it is the best Corvette ever made and lacks many of the things it used to fall short on every year. As for not perfect it is close but when the price is considered nothing else is close for what you get. In regards to the sentence that you made that I underlined in bold: And Im assuming...why BMW M3 coupes also got so popular in the mid 1990s...because...although a loaded up Trans Am WS6 was still less expensive than a BMW M3...its was still a stone's throw away from it...and many figured that the M3 is a much more complete car...with not only better handling...but a much much nicer interior. A more complete car... And like El K and yourself have pointed out...never mind the Cadillac ATS...the Camaro is the sporty 2 door coupe that crosses all of its Tees and dots all of its eyes in being the complete package. Its the Camaro and its higher end trims that will probably put the BMW M4 on its heels.

The more GM/Chevy reveals about this Alpha platform Camaro and its consequent versions, the more I am back in being a Camaro guy...and the more I forget about my love affair with the Camaro's former corporate brother, the Pontiac Firebird/Formula/Trans am....(although I do dream about how would Pontiac handle this platform...) The Challenger and the Hellcat trim is still my top dog muscle car...as far as pony cars go and smallish sporty 2 door coupes go which include BMW M4s and Cadillac ATS V Coupes and the like...the Camaro is fast becoming my choice... Disclaimer: Because the Challenger was ALWAYS a 'tweener in its history...I wisely determine its position in this niche to fit my style. Ill call it a pony car when I see fit to fit my biased agenda and Ill call it a mid-sized muscle car other times....such as in this case...Ill ALWAYS have a place in my heart for the Challenger...so...in THIS case...a Challenger fits in the muscle car arena so I could wax poetic about the Camaro as a pony car...other times...the Challenger gets to be a pony car...so I could wax poetic about its merits... This ZL-1 I could/would imagine is gonna be a beast worth reckoning with. This Camaro ZL-1 Im assuming, will put many established name brands on their heels begging for mercy.

Debbie Downer. Negative Nancy. Pessimistic Patty. Bitchy Betty. Party Crasher. Kill Joy. Although I agree with what you wrote....

Yup. Yup. and more Yup. Especially the part where one car needs the other to keep going well into the 21st century. Like the Coyote and RoadRunner. Like Smokey and the Bandit. Like Superman and Lex Luther. Like Batman and The Joker. Like the Boston Bruins and the Montreal Canadiens. Sure....other cars come to join in on the fun...but its the original rivalry that keeps the fire alive...and if that fire dies out... And it did...in 2002...I dont know about you folk...I dont want to go back to 2002... The Camaro amd Mustang are even pushing cars ABOVE their class to perform better...th BMW CEO fainted because of it... The thought of a Mustang GT350, Camaro SS and an upcoming Z/28 beating up on his M4 scared him...the reality of an Alfa Romeo Guilia based Challenger/'Cuda down right took his breath away...

NOW....I wanna know who is the other chicken shyte who down voted that other post... Now...I get it...you dont wanna this out in the air like that...but as long as you mofos HIDE under a down voting system...I WILL ALWAYS CALL YOU OUT!!! Be a EFFIN MAN and REVEAL yourself and STATE why YOU down voted!!! So I could actually EXPLAIN myself to you and others... And YOU could do the same to me!!! WTF is this???!!! Down voting because I EXPRESSED MY OPINIONS ON SOMETHING THAT BOTHERS ME!!! AT LEAST I MADE IT PUBLIC ON TO WHY IT BOTHERS ME!!! WHY DONT YOU DO THE SAME???!!! GROW UP....ALL OF YOU!!! DOWN VOTE BUT REVEAL YOURSELVES AND EXPLAIN AS TO WHY!!! CHICKEN SHYTES!!!

And of course you down vote my post where EL K up voted... Anthrope to Theou...For Christ's Sake...GROW UP!!! What...you are gonna go on a down voting rampage???!!! Let me remind YOU....'twas YOU that cried to Drew about your EFFIN' Rep in the FIRST EFFIN' PLACE abut the EFFIN DOWN VOTES...

And at the end of the day... Its a Camaro thread...inevitably...Ford WILL be mentioned one way or other by somebody...be it a Chevy fanboy...or a Ford fanboy...hell...even a Mopar fanboy will inevitably mention Mopar AND Ford in a Chevy Camaro thread...

I down voted you Wings... Its an opinion...HE IS ALLOWED TO HAVE ONE.... And you know what? I MIRROR HIS THOUGHTS on where the ecoboost 4 cylinder is with the Mustang versus the V6 and how GM decided to go on about it... Its a different marketing strategy...that I believe SUCKS because...although I LOVE my 1.6 ecoboost Fusion...I too...think its STUPID for Ford to keep PUSHING ecoboost the way they do...with no effin' logic!!! Why not an ecoboost V6 Mustang? Why not drop money on a direct injected V8 and put ecoboost on it and drop it in the Ford GT? it still has the ECOBOOST nomenclature that Ford wants to throw down our freakin' throats... Hell...Ford is thinking about dropping a 2.7 liter ecoboosted V6 in a Fusion and call it an ST....so it aint ALL ABOUT the ECO after all!!! Wings...we ARE allowed to criticize Ford without YOU having a hissy fit!!! And our CRITICISMS are NOT BASHING Ford...its us saying...WTF is WRONG with Ford???!!!

I up voted you because I find its FREAKIN' ridiculous for someone to have down voted THAT!!! I think I know who it is... Why downvote???!!! At least tell us why!!! I have a feeling its because El K talked about the 4 banger being the ENTRY level engine choice rather than how Ford has made it a mid pack engine... THAT does NOT deserve a downvote...it may deserve a DISCUSSION though!!! So....DISCUSS!!! The rest of El K's post is just another opinion....he IS allowed to say that there might be hoonage over an Ecotec 4 cylinder Camaro... The Cobalt SS had a decent following from the tuner crowd...why not the Camaro? An turbo 4 cylinder is also what Ford is counting on to entice a certain demographic that likes a certain type of car... *cough* Subaru BRZ *cough* So...why on earth would that somebody down vote that post? At least be a man about it and give us a bloody DISCUSSION!!! THAT is what I hate about the voting system...the whole thing is childish... There have been other posts too...yours and mine...and others...that have been downvoted with WTF remarks from me...without the explanations to go along with the down votes... Its just that... I now...decided to go ape shyte on that observation...

I have a philosophy...that involves Facebook...indirectly. And no...I dont have a Facebook account. Never did...never will...never say never...as my kids grow older, and one day move out...and they have a Facebook account or something similar...I may finally give in... So...I think Facebook is great to keep in touch with family and friends... But about that friends part...there is a reason why some friends have drifted apart from me...from anybody...its because its the natural evolution of growing up and moving on with your life...from High School...to College and University...to finding a job...from finding another job...to finally getting married and so forth and so forth....your circle of friends and entourage change...it grows and becomes thinner...only to grow again...with DIFFERENT people in different stages of your life...such as life... And you add to the fact that there are only a handful of friends that one person, ANY person could REALLY call a friend...then there is NO NEED to Facebook when there are other means of communication available... Sure...Facebook makes it easier to post pics and stuff...but E-Mail is just as simple... AND...a phone call is STILL the easiest and you actually get a PHYSICAL contact...voice...but still...you actually KNOW its the ACTUAL person you are talking to...and then there is SKYPE... Like I said...its a great tool to communicate with that high school buddy of yours...he lives in Melbourne Australia while you live in NYC...cool...but what about the actual people that SURROUND you...maybe its time for you to form NEW bonds...instead of clinging to OLD ones...like I said...friends come and go...its a natural occurrence...its great that its easy to track long lost friends or to keep up with friends that have gone...but...we must learn to let go also... I got re-acquainted with a high school buddy about 6-7 years ago...long story as to how we got together again and an even longer story on how we drifted apart...the point is...fate and destiny brought us together again...and TRUE FRIENDSHIPS survive the test of time...you dont need Facebook for that. Ive got REAL friends that live in Houston and NYC and Norway...and when the come back to Montreal...well...they visit me at my restaurant...THAT would be the OLD WAY to do it... Am I itching to talk to them on a daily basis? NO! Why? Ive got other things on my mind...like running my restaurant...catering to my family...catering to some NEW friends I made along the way...sure...I could ditch CheersandGears and Motor Trend Forums to talk to them...but...they dont share the same automotive interests...so...hence why Facebooking is not a thing with me... How do I know that these guys are REAL friends? Because when my daddy died...two of them came to my dad's funeral while living abroad and the other guy sent flowers from Norway... so...we dont talk on Facebook...and?

We never got the the Pontiac GTO up here in Canada. So...for me... Ill take a Monaro CV8/Pontiac GTO with the LS2... Pictured below is a Vauxhaul VXR...Id be happy with this version too...supercharged LS2 @ 500 horsepower/500 ft. lbs torque The 500/500 club seems to be more rare for a sporty coupe, even by today's standards. The 400/400 club is a dime a dozen... So...in retrospect, Id take Vauxhaul VXR instead... Hmmmmmmm..... Yes... Yes...Im sure. But in LHD...a-and the Vauxhaul badges and fascias remain...

Yeah...I was just clicking randomly on the mouse, for fun I guess ..when the pointer drifted on the voting box thingy... I was trying to find an explanation why manufacturers grow their cars bigger and bigger...and came up with a theory, then I realized all that I was saying was just...jibber jabber I have no clue as to why they do... CCAP's explanation IS the best..."its just how it goes" I prefer to use the cliché that I ALWAYS use outside of the internets...It is what it is! (high lighted in blue and silver..just to kick off the 2015 NFL Football Season!)

Oh CRAP!!! I downvoted this post by accident... I did not want to....and I thought it didnt register, but it did...SORRY!!! Could you please reverse it Drew?

Its a far cry? Not really...its much closer than you think...its just that you have blinders on... Its OK...Ive stated my case...there is no use in continuing because you just have a set agenda and you ALWAYS stick to it... YOU are NOT interested in discussing and coming to a conclusion and middle ground...all YOU want to do is just press on through with your biased agenda...

about independent rear suspension I gather...your post is referring to? And yeah, I agree. And Chevy/Cadillac engineers have done the most they could have with the rear suspension of a BOF truck... The reason why I say that...its because...its a BOF truck that weighs 5000 lbs or so...and handling...up until now, was not an issue to be addressed as handling was not a quality that GM nor its customers of these behemoths were asking...

I ran out of time so this post is in conjuction to the post I made above... I think GM with GM performance parts and Chevy with the Police Vehicle Programs and Corvette and Camaro Racing Programs along with Cadillac engineering technologies such as magnetic shocks and the like...I wouldnt worry too much about an Escalade V handling all that V8 power... The Police Pack Tahoe seems to have gotten the handling down pat... Let us not forget that it was GM and Cadillac that developed the Presidential Beast...this one and the next generation... and that the Beast is on a HEAVIER DUTIER Truck platform...and I betcha that the Presidential Beast handles the twisties...like a Beast...not too mention all the CIA Suburbans that go along with it...

Are we seriously arguing what a bonafide BOF truck platform can and cannot do with high speeds and cornering? Seriously...that is some effed up shyte... And Im the first to say WTF regarding high center of gravity SUVs and manufacturers turning them into speeding freight trains... However...SMK...I wouldnt UNDERestimate if I were you...its not as if GM/Chevrolet havent done something similar before where they could learn how to do a 'Slade V properly...to handle the speed and the cornering... I WILL SAY THIS THOUGH...MAYBE THIS IS WHERE INDEPENDENT REAR SUSPENSION COMES IN HANDY...but that quibble is meant for another poster...just enjoy the vids...

Ill agree that the name Malibu is NOT damaged goods... The late 1990s-mid 2000s Malibus are not bad vehicles, ugly exterior and cheap materials inside aside, they were not disaster vehicles like the Hyundai Sonata you mentioned...and quite honestly...this model Malibu is an honestly handsome car that quickly changed the minds of many wiith its chic styling and very nicely appointed interior as opposed the generation before it... THAT Malibu restored any bad perceptions the Malibu name plate may have had on a dime...and the momentum Chevy has in this segment is because of that Malibu's effort... The last 2 generations...there really is NOTHING bad to talk about...only that the rear seating area is not fit for family haulin' duties...the raison d'etre of this vehicle in this segment...but the Equinox takes care of that...and the Chevy Trax...and low and behold...all cars in the segment are giving way to CUVs anyway.. This next generation Malibu...in my opinion, will soldier on and be a successful hit along the same lines as the 2008-2012 model...but it may not garner any sales topping charts NOT because the CamCord are what people are choosing over the Malibu...but because not only will people be choosing the next generation Equinox over the Malibu...but the next generation Equinox will be the people's choice over a CRV and RAV 4... In other words.. the midsized CUV will be the next bread and butter midsized family haulin' segment battleground and .the next generation Equinox is gonna be that vehicle to put Chevy on top of the sales chart...

And THAT is another reason why I hate downvotes... A discussion and/or arguments are had because of OPPOSING opinions...its NATURAL to PHILOSOPHIZE these differences...and to come to some sort of conclusion or middle ground... Like you said...if you cant do that...why are you even here???!!! PS: I dont mind the downvotes...I WANT the downvotes to remain...but I want explanations as to why the downvotes... PSS: Ive trolled in the past regarding downvoting...as I explained....but as you see...I AINT afraid to REVEAL the REASONS why I DOWNVOTED!!! And with a certain poster...it was all about the childish trolling... I dont downvote as much anymore...there is no need...because Id rather just explain to you why I dont agree with you...I havent come across a post that REALLY desreves a downvote though...but trust me...if I downvote you...it WILL come with an explanation...