Spying: Cadillac CTS, Now On The Streets

Huge grille, eh? That detail reminds me of the Ciel concept

Boy, this looks more like a competitor to MB and BMW.

It has the Benz lower sleeker and wider look about it. Once the Camo is off it might be very interesting.

Looks promising so far, and agrees about the Benz look, I think they used those wheels to make it look more like a Benz. I just hope it doesn't get too big, the CTS is already bigger than an E-class.

This car could make the XTS irrelevant (which I would love). This car will have a longer wheelbase, and possibly more interior room than an XTS, they could fit it with magnetic ride control, a better interior, and 8-speed transmission (if they ever get one). Then you have RWD ride and handling that beats the XTS, better fuel economy because of the turbo 4 and even the V6 with a better transmission and less mass to move around should do better on the CTS than XTS. I assume this CTS will be priced the same as the XTS in order to line up to the 5-series.

I wish more people would understand the XTS in a way is kind of like a Captiva. The Captiva takes the resale hit for the Nox. GM has cut back on Nox fleet sales to help the Nox owners retain greater resale value. The XTS will do the same for the CTS and ATS. Cadillac will sell them in in larger numbers for livery service like the Town Cars did. The Town Cars resale was crap due to so many used ones on the market.

Along the way the XTS will help move people closer to the kind of car Cadillac is becoming.

The CTS will be special and I expect more like the rest fo the market and become more upscale with class. So will the price. The CTS will become the car the STS should have been.

The CTS is already special. Otherwise, Cadillac would be more like Lincoln: moribund and ready for the glue factory. Yes, the CTS needs to be even more competitive with the 5 series and the E Class. Now if only there was a proper 7 series/S Class/XJ fighter from Cadillac......

The CTS will become the car the STS should have been.

Let's hope, the STS was a dud.

CTS is already more than the STS was.

The idea that we have but 'thin hope' that the next one will be another strong competitor is not very credible... but keep on pushing that broken wheelbarrow.

CTS, ATS, SRX and even the XTS are all winners and will continue to help move cadillac back to the world standard. I truly believe the people there are aware of the history that messed up Caddy to begin with and know they have to be on the bleeding edge of competition with MB and BMW to really make it. Unlike the Glue stock Lincoln, Caddy has much going for it and will sprint further ahead over the next year to year and 1/2.

CTS, ATS, SRX and even the XTS are all winners and will continue to help move cadillac back to the world standard. I truly believe the people there are aware of the history that messed up Caddy to begin with and know they have to be on the bleeding edge of competition with MB and BMW to really make it. Unlike the Glue stock Lincoln, Caddy has much going for it and will sprint further ahead over the next year to year and 1/2.

Not sure you can be the "world standard" when you pretty much only sell in North America and even in the USA Cadillac is mid-pack in sales.

Not sure you can be the "world standard" when you pretty much only sell in North America and even in the USA Cadillac is mid-pack in sales.

Well, 'world' in the sense of the World Series or Super Bowl...

CTS, ATS, SRX and even the XTS are all winners and will continue to help move cadillac back to the world standard. I truly believe the people there are aware of the history that messed up Caddy to begin with and know they have to be on the bleeding edge of competition with MB and BMW to really make it. Unlike the Glue stock Lincoln, Caddy has much going for it and will sprint further ahead over the next year to year and 1/2.

Not sure you can be the "world standard" when you pretty much only sell in North America and even in the USA Cadillac is mid-pack in sales.

Be sure that being a 'world standard' is NOT aspirationally based on merely reaching a crushing sales volume....

CTS, ATS, SRX and even the XTS are all winners and will continue to help move cadillac back to the world standard. I truly believe the people there are aware of the history that messed up Caddy to begin with and know they have to be on the bleeding edge of competition with MB and BMW to really make it. Unlike the Glue stock Lincoln, Caddy has much going for it and will sprint further ahead over the next year to year and 1/2.

Not sure you can be the "world standard" when you pretty much only sell in North America and even in the USA Cadillac is mid-pack in sales.

Be sure that being a 'world standard' is NOT aspirationally based on merely reaching a crushing sales volume....

This is where Cadillac is going but you can not just start building expensive low volume cars over night and expect people to buy them right out of the gate after years or poor cars. You need to undersell the other and improve the cars to the point you earn the customers trust before he plunks down $95,000 on a car.

BMW and Benz sell as much or more on past rep than present qulity. Today Cadillac needs to earn the rep of quaily and value and transfer that to more and more lower volume higher price and profitable cars.

I think the flag ship will be here at the time that the ATS and new CTS will have few excuses to not be in the same class as Benz and BMW. They could not have done that on the first gen CTS. Now the money is here they have been fixing the lower end cars that will show people the flag ship is worth putting the money down for.

the XTS wil keep up the cash flow and resale value of the other cars by being the volume car for now.

Yet look at all the passion we have in one way or another. With passion and determination, Caddilac will become the world standard again in the future I believe. ATS, CTS, SRX and Escalade will help them achieve this.

Not sure how the SRX helps them become a world standard, when it competes with the RX350 and MKX, and the Germans have rear drive, more expensive SUVs. Plus the MKX is sold in North America only, and even 56% of Lexus brand sales are in the USA.

Also not sure dfelt how the XTS is already a winner when it isn't on sale yet, and many are already saying it is here to handle fleet sales.

ATS might be world class, and the next-gen CTS might be world class, but those are still 2 "might be's" and BMW and Mercedes have been world class for 30+ years. So while I see the ATS and CTS being steps in the right direction, they may not get Cadillac across the goal line.

Yet look at all the passion we have in one way or another. With passion and determination, Caddilac will become the world standard again in the future I believe. ATS, CTS, SRX and Escalade will help them achieve this.

The mistake is some thing these are the destination when these models are the path. Cadillac will evolve and they will get there. The ATS for the reality of it is the real first step post Chapter 11.

Yet look at all the passion we have in one way or another. With passion and determination, Caddilac will become the world standard again in the future I believe. ATS, CTS, SRX and Escalade will help them achieve this.

The mistake is some thing these are the destination when these models are the path. Cadillac will evolve and they will get there. The ATS for the reality of it is the real first step post Chapter 11.

Yet both of you prove a point I was interested in seeing if anyone else would join me on. To become a world standard, to move beyond what is to what can become, one must have faith. I consider myself agnostic/atheist when it comes to religion, yet that does not mean I do not have faith in what engineers and companies can do to compete and be a standard.

Apple became a standard

Microsoft is a standard

Cisco is a standard

GM was a standard at one time, they can become the standard again.

It starts with each one here to realize we all have the responsibility to give feedback to GM and other companies we care about. Make sure they hear us as our intentions are meant to be best and then hold onto the faith that they will not only hear, but incorporate it into their business to achieve that standard.

ATS & CTS truly are a standard I believe. SRX, XTS and Escalade all play an important role in achieving this, if you talk to any of us that have owened 1 or more Escalades they have achieved that standard already for full size SUV's. SRX will help them move in the right direction for CUV sales and the XTS has an important fleet business model that helps Cadillac be seen. As long as the design language is consistent and flows through out all models, you will see a consistent message that will grow peoples perception of Cadillac favorably.

Keep the Faith on GM and Cadillac the Standard of the World!

This is how I see it. The present CTS has gone from a non contender Catera to a CTS that is a player in the segment. The next CTS I feel will be one that will challange for the lead.

The ATS I expect will be a car that can contend for the class lead but it is to soon to crown it a leader yet. Once we see the test and drive it we will know if it has the right stuff. On paper the standard ATS look very good.

The SRX is not what I would term as the new GM. I think it represents well what Lutz could do with what he had to work with. The next update on the Theta platform will be move to the head of the pack. Owning a new Theta I can tell you it is as good or better than many in class but it just needs a touch more to be the lead in price ranges in this competitive class.

The XTS is mostly in a class of its own. It is a little 300 a little old town car and a little new Cadillac. It is mostly like the SRX a finished verson of a model Lutz started before the new money came in. It is about as good as it can be in class as it mostly has few in this price range that offer what it offers and will do the mission it is set to do. I see it as a space filler till a true flag ship is ready and in time it will be replaced with a larger version on the Alpha or other RWD AWD chassis.

I do not believe in faith in a company. I know GM has the tallent to do what it needs and they key was to set them lose to do the job. Lutz and a few others have changed the GM rule book to let them build the cars the way they need to be and not follow the crazy rules in the past. They no longer have to be asked to do class leading panel gaps. They no longer have to be told to put chrome around the windows to make a plain car look much more up class. Yes it will cost more money but if it increases sales no one will repremand you like they would if the car fails due to a poor cheap appearance.

The only real issue is that it will take time to do all that needs done. GM as big as it is just does not have the money to do all that needs done at one time. Also they just don't have the man power to do it all at one time and still get it right.

Doing the trucks now will inject a lot of cash flow to help fund many of the new project that are to come.

It is not faith it is just a matter of doing the job right and make smart buisness moves needed to keep the progress going.

This is like the new tower in NY being built to replace the twin towers. You start at the ground floor and work your way up. Make each and every move a step ahead and win the desire and trust of the public to spend more and more money on the cars you build.

To turn around decades of GM and Cadillac will take years and not months. It will take more than one model and each new one building on the one before it.

I just hope GM can get to the point where they can into cars that are not just as good in class but the best and remain there more than 6 months to a year like it is now.

Very Nice Write Up Hyperv6.

Very Nice Write Up Hyperv6.

Thanks!

Moving in the rigth direction is good, and ATS and CTS seem to be doing that. But 10 years ago the first CTS came out, and we heard of a rear drive STS and rear drive convertible to follow shortly after. 10 years ago Cadillac was supposed to be moving toward being a global player and challenging the Germans. So we've heard this story before.

We are also about 1 year away from a new S-class and a reminder of what Mercedes is capable of and why they are Mercedes and Cadillac, Infiniti, and the others are second teir.

BMW and Mercedes have been world class for 30+ years.

BME & mercedees were far from being a 'world class standard' circa the early '80s. BMW interiors for one were horrendously cheap & spartan. BMW of today (still not great) wouldn't even recognize early '80s BMW.

Both have made huge leaps in interior quality, appointments, equipment & luxury, but they were pretty bad then. You need to cut yer revisionist history timespan down a bit.

'81 5-series:

Take the roundel off the stirrin whill and I'd have guessed "Yugo".

BMW and Mercedes have been world class for 30+ years.

BME & mercedees were far from being a 'world class standard' circa the early '80s. BMW interiors for one were horrendously cheap & spartan. BMW of today (still not great) wouldn't even recognize early '80s BMW.

Both have made huge leaps in interior quality, appointments, equipment & luxury, but they were pretty bad then. You need to cut yer revisionist history timespan down a bit.

'81 5-series:

WOW That is one freakin cheap ass interior.

It's a complete joke.

'Luxury car', 'world class'...

1981 Buick Quality

We all have come a long way baby!

I miss velour seating.... sometimes. (Some days I do miss my '84 Cutlass Supreme.) The cloth that GM replaced it with now may be more durable, but I am not a fan of it.

One look at that '81 5-series interior reminded me of GM interiors of that time.... and the GM ones were cheaper and a little worse. All automakers have come a very long way from cheap spartan interiors dating from 30+ years ago, mostly because customers wanted better interiors.

^ GM less expensive models, perhaps, but not an expensive luxury car. The BMW interior is akin to a VW Rabbit of the day interior.

This isn't the be all, end all of interiors, but it was a LOT better equipped & luxurious than the claimed 'world class' BMW shown above.

Cadillac circa 1980:

I always loved the GM head liner drop of the 80's.

BMW in 1981 as was Audi not the kind of car they are today. Both were pretty basic cars that had good handling. They were not the most luxurious and not always the fastest as they were about handling and the drive. For the most there are still the BMW fan that still wishes they offer cars like the BMW 2002 and less like than what some of them have become today.

1981 Buick Quality

We all have come a long way baby!

Demonstrating that after 30 years of sunbaking, the velour is coming off? Please. I've seen leather interiors splitting apart after less than a decade.

I've sat in seats like this... Oldsmobile flavor, not Buick... and they offer all the luxuries and quality you need... a comfortable seat for a 6'4" guy... 3 across seating... good visibility... good leg and foot room.

Sure, I preferred the fluffed pillow seats some Olds and Buicks had... but that something of a moot point, as BMW or Mercedes never had those.

I always loved the GM head liner drop of the 80's.

Of the '80s?!? You better check again. GM headliners fall in the '70s-'80s-'90s and '00s. Sure, GM's foam has gotten better at not instantly disintegrating, but it still fails in some cars.

The old '60 headliners usually held up much better.

BMW in 1981 as was Audi not the kind of car they are today. Both were pretty basic cars that had good handling.

Nonesense, smk already testified they were "world class luxury cars". lol

They only really fixed the headliner drop when they went to the woven look headliner material from the felt stuff. I believe they changed the type of foam they used underneath at that point to something more durable. There's a small bit in the center of our Regal's headliner that has let go even.

BMW and Mercedes have been world class for 30+ years.

BME & mercedees were far from being a 'world class standard' circa the early '80s. BMW interiors for one were horrendously cheap & spartan. BMW of today (still not great) wouldn't even recognize early '80s BMW. Both have made huge leaps in interior quality, appointments, equipment & luxury, but they were pretty bad then. You need to cut yer revisionist history timespan down a bit. '81 5-series:

Moving up to 1986...you have BMW continuing with the Yugo look

And Buick pushing the envelope of technology. Keep in mind, digital dashes may not be in style today, but they were all the rage at this time.

And even this 1986 Lincoln Mark VII after 25 years of wear and tear, looks like a more luxurious place to spend your time.

They only really fixed the headliner drop when they went to the woven look headliner material from the felt stuff. I believe they changed the type of foam they used underneath at that point to something more durable. There's a small bit in the center of our Regal's headliner that has let go even.

That's just the covering... they all have foam, which you can see clearly at the front and rear as Dwight would point that GM is not even interested in tucking the ends of the headliners. Certainly, the foam has improved... but as I've seen bubbles forming in cars barely 10 years old, GM has not fixed the problem. Keep in mind, that since A/C is now virtually standard and A/C systems stay pressurized longer, on average, than they did in the '80s, you can account for some of the headliner durability by the fact that people running the A/C are not driving 65 with the windows down. The bubbles grow until the wind starts to make them flap, which eventually causes the whole thing to go.

Check this out for flagship luxury: The 1984 BMW 735.... or as I like to call it, "The Yugo Look with Wood Applique"

I'm sure the Kennworth sized steering wheel aided in the handling.

They only really fixed the headliner drop when they went to the woven look headliner material from the felt stuff. I believe they changed the type of foam they used underneath at that point to something more durable. There's a small bit in the center of our Regal's headliner that has let go even.

That's just the covering... they all have foam, which you can see clearly at the front and rear as Dwight would point that GM is not even interested in tucking the ends of the headliners. Certainly, the foam has improved... but as I've seen bubbles forming in cars barely 10 years old, GM has not fixed the problem. Keep in mind, that since A/C is now virtually standard and A/C systems stay pressurized longer, on average, than they did in the '80s, you can account for some of the headliner durability by the fact that people running the A/C are not driving 65 with the windows down. The bubbles grow until the wind starts to make them flap, which eventually causes the whole thing to go.

The headliner is totally different these days.

^ dark, cheap, penalty boxes.

BMW and Audi got a later start, Mercedes was the standard in the 1960s even, the other 2 came a bit later. But Cadillac did the Cimarron in the early 80s because they were worried about the sales BMW and other European imports were taking sales away. Lexus in the 80s built the LS400 to compete with Mercedes (albeit at a discount) even the CTS-V was done to compete with the M5, a car that came out in 1985. The Germans have been at this game a long time is all I'm saying.

And in the 1970s when the top Cadillacs were $16,000, a Merecedes 450SEL 6.9 was nearly $40,000. The S-class has always been the standard, and that is the difference between Mercedes and the rest. Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc can compete on $35-50,000 cars, but they can't play in the big leauges. Even the Lexus LS is about $30,000 cheaper than an S-class.

I guess you missed the point.

BMW of the 70's and 80's were not intended to take on American Luxury car head to head. I am sure there is a German mocking the Cheap Plastic R2 D2 Interior of the Buick that was so called pushing the envolope too.

The fact is these cars were not going head to head and were aimed at not only different buyers but for the most entirerly different markets. The GM interiors were a joke in Europe as much as the BMW and plain drab Benz or Audi interiors were mocked by many here in America . Style Expectations were different as was Quality expectations. To compare cars from this era is near impossible as they were literally a world appart.

Today as the market tightens based on global market expectations we can more easily compare the styling as they are now set to what the global market expects or will accept. Less that Pizza looking hook rug like thing in the Nissan Cube dash?

The one thing you can compare is the quality of materials. In many of these dated cheap looking euro cars you will find the quality of materials held up better in most but not all cases. These companies that did stick to the better materials have made the market as a whole improve.

GM over the years has done some nice interiors while some that looked dated a year after it was released. The interiors of GM cars sucked as for the most they did not hold up over the long run in many models from the last 30 years.

Case in point. I have a neighbor that has a 81 Camaro V8 4 Speed. He is to the point now with Alzheimers he is no longer able to drive his car he has asked me to take the car now and then to keep it in running condition. It was this car that has shown me how the interior of this car has held up to time pretty well styling wise but it also shows me the quality of the materials uses and how poorly it was assembled. This car only has 14,000 miles on it and still has the factory Uniroyal tires still under it. It is a time capsule of a Camaro interior of this age as even the heater control panel is still unrumpled and the glove box is still in alignment. There are few rattles in the car other than what came from the factory. It made me marvel how far most of GM's interiors have come in quality. Even yet there is room to improve.

It has been made clear by GM people that the money in their cars over the last 30 years often went into the car everywhere and the interiors were often where the money was saved.

I also have a set of 911 seats in the garage from a old car we turned into a race car. I have used these seats for 20 years of beating around the garage after they were beat around in the Porsche for years before. The material is still in good shape and durable. Pretty it is not but the quality stands out.

As for styling much of the 70's and 80's was very trendy like some of the clothing. You don't seem many of more popular things worn much anymore like the old StyleAuto jackets or Disco suits.

Note even in my Terrain I love the styling on how they did the interior and lights. But with that said there is still a spot on the head liner that has a ruff surface under it that shows throught. I though about replacing it but I hate to have them rip it appart for something few others will notice. But it still should not be there. Also the plastics in some areas could or should have been better. It is good but I have seen better in other GM cars and other MFG cars in this class.

I expect GM to take the interior to the next level in the new cars we are now getting like the ATS. I expect the styling and quality of materials to be best in class for once on this car.

BMW and Audi got a later start, Mercedes was the standard in the 1960s even, the other 2 came a bit later. But Cadillac did the Cimarron in the early 80s because they were worried about the sales BMW and other European imports were taking sales away. Lexus in the 80s built the LS400 to compete with Mercedes (albeit at a discount) even the CTS-V was done to compete with the M5, a car that came out in 1985. The Germans have been at this game a long time is all I'm saying.

And in the 1970s when the top Cadillacs were $16,000, a Merecedes 450SEL 6.9 was nearly $40,000. The S-class has always been the standard, and that is the difference between Mercedes and the rest. Lexus, Infiniti, Cadillac, etc can compete on $35-50,000 cars, but they can't play in the big leauges. Even the Lexus LS is about $30,000 cheaper than an S-class.

Even the Benz was not a styling show case with there interiors. But the quality of materials were better than most. Today there are many original examples in good unrestored condition.

But again as your price points out these cars were not competing. Cadillac was mostly worried what Lincoln and Chrysler to a lesser extent were doing. For the most they did not consider BMW the compitition not as much Benz with their higher priced models. The American luxury segment was for the most a 3 horse race till they started to lose sales to an improving import market.

BMW and Audi got a later start, Mercedes was the standard in the 1960s even, the other 2 came a bit later.

The mainstream mercedes cars in the '60s were just as horrible as BMWs. There was little discernible differences in interiors between the volume product & VWs of the period.

On top of that, when you're pushing a 110 HP 4-cyl with crank windows ('72 220), you NEED to pull out the stops with an overpriced sedan at the top to try and bolster the sales of the pedestrian stripper boxes you depend on to keep the factories cranking. In mercedees' case, it seems to have worked.

I know this first hand; my '59 Buick used to bunk with a '68 mercedes and I sat in it a few times. The 10-yr older Buick was more luxurious, better attention to detail, more plush, and at least had the potential for more equipment (mine was mid-line with only a few options). Mercedes spent a LOT of time & money studying American players who were 'taking holding back their sales', the result over time being that they added more & more equipment, features & amenities they never offered before. Mercedes was FAR from the luxury 'world standard' in the 1960s.

And here I thought we were making progress that the 1980s was too recent...

Yes this screamed luxury as well. Look at the clubbed baby seal leather and electronics in the dash.

Euro cars excluding some itallian models for the most had little interior styling from post WWII till the late 80's and early 90's. From the 50's till the late 60's many in Western Europe were lucky to just have a car let alone one with a stylish interior.

My father lived in Germany for a few years in the 50's and told me and showed me what they had to drive. As their economy improved the cars started to improve. But they took years to rebuild to a stable level after the war.

Now prewar Euro cars could in many cases have some of the richest interiors found and we were in the post depression era where the basics were the norm in most affordable Chevys and Fords. It improved upto and then after the war.

Anyway for what it is worth in this thread. I saw the first Zeta Chevy Police car today. It was kind of odd to see the fender flares bulging out like a G8 but a small simple Chevy grille.

Yes this screamed luxury as well. Look at the clubbed baby seal leather and electronics in the dash.

While this may look dated today it set the trend for the insutry in the removal of chrome etc. Today the chrome is returning as well as the addition of spcial lighting. I see GM in the lead on the special interior lighting. I expect the others will soon make more use of this in their cars too.

You all can bash Mercedes or other imports of the 80s, but that is when Cadillac started to lose, and it got worse in the 1990s. If Mercedes wasn't any good, why isn't Cadillac dominating them?

And since this was about the CTS, can Cadillac add $10,000 or even $15,000 in price to that car and see a sales increase on it? That is a tall order.

Getting back on topic, it sounds like the new CTS will be similar in size to the current one w/ most of the same engines as the ATS.

Well of course it's going to be the same relative size- it's already the same size as the 5-series it's supposed to be positioning against. No one expects the next one to gain 10". Whew.

If Mercedes wasn't any good, why isn't Cadillac dominating them?

They were mediocre and outside what the luxury market was demanding THEN, which is why Cadillac dominated mercedes THEN (this is the period you claimed BMW & MB were 'world class' & 'leaders').

There are numerous reasons why mercedees is outselling Cadillac now, tho frankly shooting for segment saturation should never be the goal, IMO (and I include Cadillac's record-setting volume in the late '70s here).

Nice!

But smk, you've said repeatedly that BMW has been "Best evar!!!" for 30 years and that is clearly not the case. My 81 Toronado has a nicer interior than any of those BMWs AND with 96k miles on it has held up excellently.

Well the 3-series has been on the Car & Driver 10 Best award list for 21 consecutive years. That is a pretty good run. I generalized when I said 30 years, BMW has been a benchmark for over 20 though, and Mercedes much longer than that. Mercedes invented the car after all. And the CTS is no longer going to be an entry level car, if they push it to mid-lux against the E-class and 5-series Cadillac better not bring another knife to a gun fight like with the STS.