Jump to content
  • William Maley
    William Maley

    BMW's M Division Believes Manual and Dual-Clutch Transmissions Are Coming To An End

    Sign in to follow this  

      Time is ticking for manual and dual-clutch transmissions

    BMW's vice-president of sales and marketing for the M division, Peter Quintus believes that manual and dual-clutch transmissions will be going the way of the dodo bird performance vehicles.

    According to Drive, Qunitus has been banging the drum on the demise of manual transmissions for a bit. The reason isn't due to emissions but comes down them not being able to handle engines with loads of torque - saying 600Nm of torque (about 442 lb-ft). When asked about using a manual transmission from the U.S. that is able to handle all of this torque, Qunitus said the company found them to be "heavy and the shift quality was awful."

    The admission of Dual-clutch transmissions not long for this world is bit surprising as more manufacturers are beginning to install them into their performance vehicles as they would deliver fast shifts. That is changing with automatics as new technologies help them shift as fast as DCTs.

    "We are now seeing automatic transmissions with nine and even 10 speeds, so there's a lot of technology in modern automatics," said Quintus.

    "The DCT once had two advantages: it was light and its shift speeds were higher. Now, a lot of that shift-time advantage has disappeared as automatics get better and smarter."

    Source: Drive

    Sign in to follow this  


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Totally agree with what is stated here, I suspect manual will be gone in 5 years from most markets if not all. After market will be the source of parts but most just want to shift and go even in performance.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Makes sense.. It will be sad to see manuals slowly disappear.

    His torque reasoning doesn't really make much sense, imo. We've had 400-600lb-ft engines here for a long-ass time to say it's difficult to make one to handle that much.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Yeah, I don't get the torque comment either. It's not like we don't already have DSGs running behind engines with 250 lbft to 400 lbft. The physical size of the engine will change, but an X3i X-Drive-E Drive-Blue CrossCoupewagon will still be putting out about that same amount of power even if it's only from a 1.5 liter engine in 2045.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    This is the end
    Beautiful friend
    This is the end
    My only friend, the end

    Of our elaborate plans, the end
    Of everything that stands, the end
    No safety or surprise, the end
    I'll never look into your eyes...again

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    ive driven manuals a lot and have had my fill.  if automatics deliver better mpg, shift faster, perform as good or better, and i would argue are safer, then manuals are on their death bed.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Yeah that's really a bizarre quote also the one about the shift speed automatics have always been faster shifting. What they did was built in slippage to allow for reliablity and not breaking parts. The technology and metallurgy have allowed the shift speed to reduce with out incident.

    As for the shift quality of American manual transmissions I fear the Euro's might be a little limp in the wrist. Shifting modern transmissionsare far from Muncie rock crushers or BW super T10's

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I loved the way a Manual Corvette shifted, I have to disagree with his comment on the rough bad manuals out of America.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    15 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Totally agree with what is stated here, I suspect manual will be gone in 5 years from most markets if not all. After market will be the source of parts but most just want to shift and go even in performance.

    This is very correct, I think. 

    9 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I loved the way a Manual Corvette shifted, I have to disagree with his comment on the rough bad manuals out of America.

    The roughness and ruggedness reflected some of the unsettled nature and dynamism of not just American cars but American culture.  America has never been about smooth and silky, it has always been dynamic, exciting, and a little unpredictable...

    Take a look at the vintage C2 stingray and the E type Jag, the Jag is smooth as silk and the stingray is a really edgy design.

    12 hours ago, regfootball said:

    ive driven manuals a lot and have had my fill.  if automatics deliver better mpg, shift faster, perform as good or better, and i would argue are safer, then manuals are on their death bed.

    Safer yes, especially pulling into traffic.  I loved the DSG in the TDI Jetta I sold back to Volkswagen a month of so ago...

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    2 hours ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    This is very correct, I think. 

    The roughness and ruggedness reflected some of the unsettled nature and dynamism of not just American cars but American culture.  America has never been about smooth and silky, it has always been dynamic, exciting, and a little unpredictable...

    Take a look at the vintage C2 stingray and the E type Jag, the Jag is smooth as silk and the stingray is a really edgy design.

    I get the old Manuals, I grew up learning to drive in the mid 70's on a 3 on the tree and those you had to listen to the RPMs and had specific shift points. Later on, once you did have a proper experience in shifting, you could do it clutch free as you speed shift at just the right upper RPM going through the gears. I made sure both my kids knew how to drive manuals so they could drive anything. Now it is no big deal or needed.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Not only does the manual get beat in about every performance metric by the automatic but consumers aren't buying manuals either, so why spend development dollars on them.  It is like diesel, the take rate gets so low you can't justify designing and producing it.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

    As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

    Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 minute ago, ykX said:

    Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

    As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

    Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

    Depends on the car enthusiast, lots of enthusiasts I know like automatics.

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    39 minutes ago, ykX said:

    Automatics may be better, faster and more efficient than manuals.  However, IMHO any worthwhile enthusiast will enjoy driving a manual car much more than the automatic.

    As an engineer, I am all for a new technology that is better than the old one. However, for an enthusiast buying a sporty car shift speed is irrelevant (unless he is a racing pro), the enjoyment from driving a sports car is what he is spending his money on.

    Regretfully, today most cars are sold based on numbers and automatics will deliver better numbers.  Also, the fact that less and less people know how to drive the manual is not helping either.

    The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

    A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    12 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

    A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

    When Buick builds better drivers cars than BMW....

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    14 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    The only cars that need manuals are the true sports cars like Miata, Z4, BRZ, maybe a Mini-Cooper or two, and things like Mustang and Camaro.

    A 328ix is best left in automatic mode as everything has been so numbed up, that shifting yourself is the least of your concerns if you want "feel".

    Absolutely. I was talking about sports cars.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    Just now, A Horse With No Name said:

    When Buick builds better drivers cars than BMW....

    I'd put the current GS as the only one that'd be in that category.   The Verano T-Type is dead already.... but man that was a fun car to whip around in for not a lot of money.  Most reviewers find the ATS to be a better drivers car than the equivalent BMW also. An ATS Turbo-4 is an incredibly well balance machine with excellent feel.  The ATS-V is a brute when you push it... it doesn't have the balance of the lighter Turbo-4, but it makes up for it with raw power and no-lift manual shifting (which is an amazing thing to do even if you have to retrain your brain to do it properly).

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 minute ago, ykX said:

    Absolutely. I was talking about sports cars.

    ...and even then, local VW dealers used to keep 40 percent GTI's as manual...and Miatas were mostly manual at the local Mazda store...

    Now, local Mazda dealer has tons of automatic Miatas, and less than 10 percent of GTI's stocked locally are manual...

    Just now, Drew Dowdell said:

    I'd put the current GS as the only one that'd be in that category.   The Verano T-Type is dead already.... but man that was a fun car to whip around in for not a lot of money.  Most reviewers find the ATS to be a better drivers car than the equivalent BMW also. An ATS Turbo-4 is an incredibly well balance machine with excellent feel.  The ATS-V is a brute when you push it... it doesn't have the balance of the lighter Turbo-4, but it makes up for it with raw power and no-lift manual shifting (which is an amazing thing to do even if you have to retrain your brain to do it properly).

    Fair enough...every time I drive a newer BMW I think about what once was, and that colors my perception I think.  Bring me an E30 M3 or an E36 M3 please...

    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

    ...and the difference becomes even more profound with a less skilled driver, like at our local autocrosses...

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    31 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    I think in the GTI's case, part of that is the DSG that VW uses.... Aside from its performance in stop-go traffic, which isn't as smooth as a regular automatic, it is faster and better than a manual in nearly all cases. No one... not even the best race car driver can out-shift a DSG. 

    How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

    I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    1 minute ago, ykX said:

    How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

    I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

    Because people buy these cars to actually use in sanctioned competition from time to time...

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    5 minutes ago, ykX said:

    How is the shift speed relevant unless you are racing?

    I know GTI has excellent DSG but GTI is also a performance hatch that most people daily drive as well.  Most likely I would buy GTI with DSG as well, but would you buy for example Miata or Vette with auto?  I know plenty of people buy Miata with auto for various reasons, but I think Miata is so much more enjoyable with the manual.

    A Miata automatic I've never driven, so I don't know it's capabilities. I'd most likely go with a manual since few out there get manual transmission feel as good as Mazda does. 

    The Corvette with GM's 8-speed auto? Mmm... it's such a great transmission, considered one of the best of the true automatics, that I really wouldn't feel shame about selecting it. It really could go either way for me.

    The GTI, I would probably take a manual over a DSG just because I don't like the DSG's slow speed feel. I don't auto-cross, but feel and NVH is important to me.  I say this never having driven a recent GTI with a manual. 

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

    Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

    Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    4 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

    Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

    Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

    The Corvette with an 8-speed is an absolute cuddle puppy when being driven tamely for long distance.   It is really a Jekyl and Hyde car... it can be a comfort cruiser or a nearly track ready race car. 

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites
    7 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    Corvette with an 8 speed auto would be fantastic IMHO.  Several local autocrossers autocrossed automatic corvettes and did quite well.

    Would be an excellent road trip car with the 8 speed auto, i think.

    Being a cheapskate, I would buy a manual GTI to avoid the $400 plus DSG transmission flush every 40,000 miles.

    Most people that autocross do it for fun and even pros that I know that do it on a national level don't make any money doing it.  So unless you have a specially modified pro race car and you are pro racer, seems to me pointless to buy auto just for 6-8 events you going to run a year.  In addition, most autocross courses I know - you never have to go beyond second gear, so that is one shift for the whole run, that few milliseconds you will save are absolutely irrelevant.

    But again, to each its own.  

    Edited by ykX
    • Upvote 1

    Share this comment


    Link to comment
    Share on other sites



    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.




  • Similar Content

    • By Drew Dowdell
      In 2018, when BMW launched it's 7.0 operating system for its in-car infotainment, it included Apple Car Play for free for the first 12 months.  After that, the owner was asked to pay $80 for a 1 year subscription to Car Play or $300 for a 240 month subscription. This caused a stir among BMW owners because Apple Car Play is included at no charge in nearly every other brand out there and because Apple doesn't charge manufacturers to use Apple CarPlay in their models. Models as basic as the Chevrolet Sonic have CarPlay as standard and without any subscription fees. 
      Now BMW has confirmed it is backing away from the subscription model in order to keep customers happy. All compatible 2019 and 2020 vehicles sold will be offered a free unlimited subscription once the initial 12 months are up. Older models that have CarPlay such as the i3, i8, 4-series, and older 2-series will have to pay for a lifetime subscription. 
      For now, Android users are still stuck without a solution as BMW does not support Android Auto in its vehicles yet. 

      View full article
    • By Drew Dowdell
      In 2018, when BMW launched it's 7.0 operating system for its in-car infotainment, it included Apple Car Play for free for the first 12 months.  After that, the owner was asked to pay $80 for a 1 year subscription to Car Play or $300 for a 240 month subscription. This caused a stir among BMW owners because Apple Car Play is included at no charge in nearly every other brand out there and because Apple doesn't charge manufacturers to use Apple CarPlay in their models. Models as basic as the Chevrolet Sonic have CarPlay as standard and without any subscription fees. 
      Now BMW has confirmed it is backing away from the subscription model in order to keep customers happy. All compatible 2019 and 2020 vehicles sold will be offered a free unlimited subscription once the initial 12 months are up. Older models that have CarPlay such as the i3, i8, 4-series, and older 2-series will have to pay for a lifetime subscription. 
      For now, Android users are still stuck without a solution as BMW does not support Android Auto in its vehicles yet. 
    • By Drew Dowdell
      The X2 is BMW’s entry into the compact crossover vehicle segment. It’s based on the X1, but with a lower roofline and more car-like characteristics. While the base X2 28i comes with a 228 horsepower 2.0-liter engine with either front or all-wheel drive, I got my hands on one with the M badge at a meeting of the Mid-West Automotive Media Association at the Autobahn Country Club in Joliet Illinois.
      The M badge brings a default of BMW xDrive and increases engine horsepower to 302 and the torque to 332 lb.-ft.  BWM claims a 0-60 time of 4.7 seconds and 29 mpg. With that much power coming from a 2-liter engine, there was bound to be a bit of turbo lag and while rolling the small BMW minimizes the lag well. However, from a dead stop, there is a disturbing amount of lag that would scare me if I needed to pull out into fast traffic. Sprints from zero require planning.  When already at speed, the 8-speed automatic is quick to downshift and the engine is willing to rev. Putting the X2 M35i into sport mode does make the engine more lively.
      The suspension setup is stiff and you’ll feel all of the road imperfections except on the most glass-smooth of pavement.  That is the tradeoff for having very nimble handling.  It is rather fun to push this small front driver into the corners. My tester came with 20-inch wheels rather than the standard 19-inchers.
      This is not one of those cars that is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside. The interior is definitely snug and I wouldn’t recommend the driver’s seat to anyone much larger than my 5’10” frame. Because of the lower roof, headroom suffers, especially in the rear. Cargo room is small, but if you’re in the market for a car this size, it is to be expected.
      Still, in spite of its lack of size, the X2 is a comfortable place to sit with bold leather seats in Magma Red. The controls are well placed, though with a large number of buttons. BMW’s iDrive is here too, which always takes some getting used to.  Android Auto is not an option and BMW offers Apple CarPlay as a subscription service.  This is one thing I can’t get my head around as both are offered for free on much less expensive vehicles.
      Because of the smaller dimensions, rearward vision isn’t great and there are a few blind spots that can make things tricky.
      The BMW X2 competes with the likes of the Volvo XC40, Audi Q3, Range Rover Evoque, Cadillac XT4, and the Mercedes-Benz GLA.  All of those, save the GLA, feel roomier inside, making the X2 a more ideal fit for someone of diminutive size. However, the M35i can out power all of them except the GLA AMG 45.
      The as-tested price of my X2 M35i is estimated at $50,400 MSRP. Whether you can stomach $50k for a compact crossover with 302 horsepower is up to you.

      View full article
  • Posts

    • I knew this would happen at least a year ago.  All one needed to do is go into the Buick showroom when their car is being serviced and see the now lone LaCrosse and Regal over in a corner, or maybe just one of them.  When the LaCrosse was on the chopping block, I knew the Regal would be, too. It's weird because, from the dim days where even Buicks had marginal build quality, the brand had come a long ways.  At this point, ALL of General Motors will be offering only ONE passenger car that is mid- to full-sized and mid-priced, and that's the Malibu.  Would I have thought this was possible as a teen or in my 20s?  No.  This is just sad. I am now wondering if GM will recant along the way and start expanding their sedan or coupe line in the future because some customers will want them, even though the Asians and the Europeans seem to be content to address North America's demand for sedans.
    • @oldshurst442 A lot of good info there! As for video 1, someone needs to inform the person or party who uploaded it that they've misspelled the title. It should be "C'e' La Luna Mezzo Mare" - apostrophe and accent over the e; no h. They way it's spelled, with Che, means the person was thinking it would be pronounced like it is in Spanish.  It's not.  Instead, "che" would be pronounced as "keh" in Italian.
    • Stand alone option? What is this; 1995?? There's a dipshit at every corporation 'forcing' this. In order to get a 2.0T in a sonata, you jump -guess what- $10K to the top-tier Limited (over the base sedan). I would love for GM to do ala carte options, but that industry ship sailed 2 decades ago, so it makes no sense to me to get outraged about it.
    • we don't need to settle for the choices being offered if the choices being offered are market reasons. Some dipshit at Buick an in interview said they were dropping the higher power 1.4 in the Encore because it wasn't selling (no demand).  No, it wasn't selling because you didn't package it correctly.  you made someone upgrade packages to get it, and most likely that drove a huge price increase.  And, you simply didn't make it available.  So, had they made it a standalone and offered it on all trims or even simply made the higher power motor the base motor, they acted like typical GM. but maybe they saved a tenth of mpg on CAFE by doing it.......why?  not because of demand but because of regulations. I'll use that Malibu as an example again.  the price of the larger motor (which is just simply a larger version of the same thing....4 pistons, same number of valves, etc. just physically a bit bigger.  package it up so you cannot find one without buying a fully loaded version thats 10k more or so than the base.  Purposely youre doing that as GM to discourage anyone from buying the larger motor because what you really want to do is cave to the feds and keep your CAFE low.  You figure 10 grand or so is enough of a penalty to the consumer for wanting power and the smart consumer knows there is a tradeoff between power and FE, you should let them make the choice.  I'm assuming the powertrain cost different is not much so offer the choice to the market and let them decide apples to apples.
    • Many Italians live in Corfu.  Not far away from Brindisi, hence a ferry route between Brindisi and Corfu. My mom came from the island just below, the biggest in the Ionian. Kephalonia. I had a friend that came from Corfu, (his parents) and he often visited Italy when he went to Greece.  Ive only been to Greece. Many times.  But Im dying to visit Italy. My daughter has a Eurotrip in a couple of years, and guess what?  Her trip for her graduating year is...Switzerland and...ITALY!!!  She is sooooo happy. And I for her!!!   If you havent seen the movie Captain Correlli's Mandolin, I suggest you see it.   My mom's parents knew of the family (see it and you'll understand)  and I have a friend or two that were  extras in the movie.   Thanks to the Romans, the Greek world survived. Rome conquered Greece, but because Rome wanted to model their empire along Greek culture, art, architecture, politics, language in trade routes, etc,  the cradle of Western civilization has been credited to the Greeks, but 'twas the Romans that spread and KEPT Hellenism around more than the Greeks themselves could have ever imagined.   So who conquered who???  LOL I guess both cultures realize this and both of our cultures greatly respect one another.   This is what I adore.  1000s of years later and Italy tries to conquer Greece again, this time they lose, but because Germany had other plans, Greece fell to the Axis. When when the Italians became enemies of Germany, Greece and the Greeks protected the Italian soldiers from the Germans  towards the end of the war.  Una Faccia, una razza...1000s of years in the making... Sicily...if Im not mistaken, Poseidon's son Polyphemus, from the island of the Cyclops, from Homer's Odyssey, is said to be, Sicily.     
  • Social Stream

  • Who's Online (See full list)

  • My Clubs

About us

CheersandGears.com - Founded 2001

We ♥ Cars

Get in touch

Follow us

Recent tweets

facebook

×
×
  • Create New...