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    Rumorpile: General Motors Cans Cadillac Ultraluxury Sedan


    William Maley

    Staff Writer - CheersandGears.com

    June 29, 2013

    Last night, Automotive News broke some big news concerning Cadillac. Sources say that executives have put on ice a new super luxury sedan that would have competed with the likes of Bentley and Rolls-Royce. The reason is due to the investment not being justifiable.

    A brief refresher: Back in 2011, we began hearing rumors of a new RWD platform with the codename of Omega. Omega was to spawn two new Cadillac flagships; one that would take on the likes of the BMW 7-Series and Mercedes-Benz S-Class; and a super luxury sedan.

    Now, development of Omega and the S-Class competitor is still on and is expected to come out sometime in 2016 or 2017.

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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    Makes sense. The wording on the other forum made this look like a seriously discounted 7-Series, etc. fighter would be offered, while I think the wording here hints at a proper 7-Series, etc. fighter the same way the 2014 CTS is aimed more precisely against the 5-Series, etc.

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    Exactly.

    and besides, it's always been my opinion that the topper on Cadillac's lineup that would garner the most buzz would always be a well styled big Coupe (potentialy a convertible option too) like an Eldorado or something that would go against the Mercedes CL. Certainly from someone who would prefer to see some variety in the lineup at least, two big sedans doesn't make an awful lot of sense at this point in time.

    It's pretty crazy that they were seriously thinking about building a RR competitor in the first place, and who knows? Maybe it will happen someday. One thing is for certain, in order to sell a car like that and be taken seriously, perhaps even to sell a CL competitor or an S-Class competitor, there are other things they need to do first. We are just now seeing how much traction they have gained with the ATS, and the sales of the CTS will really be anybody's guess at this point. Additionally, Cadillac's dealer and customer experience are just not at the level they need to be. If there isn't an internal goal to offer the same level of service that Lexus does within five years, then people need to be fired. You can't sell a $200k + sedan out of dealerships that look like this:

    5743798.JPG

    Or this:

    0415B_L8CADILLAC.jpg

    Come on.

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    Exactly.

    and besides, it's always been my opinion that the topper on Cadillac's lineup that would garner the most buzz would always be a well styled big Coupe (potentialy a convertible option too) like an Eldorado or something that would go against the Mercedes CL. Certainly from someone who would prefer to see some variety in the lineup at least, two big sedans doesn't make an awful lot of sense at this point in time.

    Funny you should mention that.. From the Automotive News story,

    The person said that Cadillac executives are weighing a number of other niche vehicles to push the boundaries of Cadillac's revitalized lineup.

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    Not sure if I buy this. Too often things are on, off, on, off etc.

    I suspect that there may have been some timing changes as Cadillac has work to do before they pop a large big buck car out. I expected a $75K-120K car from the start and it is doable. The S should be the target here for now. Later on once they have established themselves as the choice car to be seen in and drive then offer the over the top car.

    The real key here is what can they also use the Omega for to cover the development cost on this platform. One car will not do it and there are few other large cars GM will ever offer again.

    Anyways we have heard so many times the ATS coupe was canned and yet it just appeared not long ago in cammo.

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    Cadillac has yet to succeed above $60k, so no sense going after Rolls or Bentley. They need a $50-65k CTS to succeed, then to go after the XJ, A8, S-class and 7-series. But even the A8 which is a well reviewed car struggles to sell. Cadillac could build an all-star car and still only sell 6,000 a year, that gamble makes me wonder how committed they are to a big luxury sedan.

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    how much longer will cars be seen as luxury props.......

    As long as people have the disposable income they will use them to enhance their image. That is the point of most purchases in this range.

    I know many who hide their income and worth and you would never know their worth while others display it or try to show they have more than they have.

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    how much longer will cars be seen as luxury props.......

    Always. There will always be people who want to flaunt their (apparent) wealth with a large luxury car. The Genesis sedan and the Equus are simply ballin' on a budget. Cadillac should aim for S-Class/7 series territory, if only to show the automotive world they are truly serious. Besides, have you been near or inside a 7 series or an S-Class? Both cars are flagships for a reason. Cadillac needs a true flagship. Caddy does NOT need to beat RR/Bently because they have not been anywhere near that since the 1930s. A 21st century Duesenberg could handle that role, not Cadillac.

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    The real key here is what can they also use the Omega for to cover the development cost on this platform. One car will not do it and there are few other large cars GM will ever offer again.

    Agreed. China/Australia could perhaps get a Buick Park-Avenue / Holden Caprice built on Omega... For Cadillac, I'd say a large coupe is perhaps the more logical way to go, but... To be honest it seems kind of foggy, unless Omega ends up sharing a lot with Alpha and being a reworked/reinforced Alpha in the sense than it can accommodate 200in-plus cars...

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    I suspect that the Omega would share some things and be a reworked Alpha. As the Volume would be low enough that it would be difficult to spread this model out too much even with Buick in China and Opel in Europe.

    I always considered the LTS a S fighter and a flag ship. Once they connect with this car then they could move to other aspirations of higher models. I would love to see them do a Bentley GT coupe/convertible first and not another sedan and or 2 seat sports car. I think they could pull this one off and build on to a sedan later.

    Bentley is a obtainable goal but they have work to do first and a lot of other needed product to do before they jump in the deep end. You must be considered and seen as a true contender before you can compete in these higher classes. Image in these classes are just as important as anything else.


    But Cadillac needs to learn to walk the walk here before they try to dance.

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    how much longer will cars be seen as luxury props.......

    Always. There will always be people who want to flaunt their (apparent) wealth with a large luxury car. The Genesis sedan and the Equus are simply ballin' on a budget. Cadillac should aim for S-Class/7 series territory, if only to show the automotive world they are truly serious. Besides, have you been near or inside a 7 series or an S-Class? Both cars are flagships for a reason. Cadillac needs a true flagship. Caddy does NOT need to beat RR/Bently because they have not been anywhere near that since the 1930s. A 21st century Duesenberg could handle that role, not Cadillac.

    well.. 1950s... but otherwise I agree.

    cadillac-eldorado-brougham-1957-737ad.jp

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    The V16 cars of the 30's were seen of high value to people with money. They could compete with Dusey, Packard and even Rolls back then.

    Today If given time to improve their image to being a class leader in all segments they could tackle this if they chose. Just it can not just be a larger LTS and it has to be something special.

    Bentley today is high end but a much more common car today as I see them often even here in Ohio and even in the middle of winter. They and Maserati have become the choice of those who want to be seen differently then the traditional BMW and Benz crowd.

    Rolls is not as common for two reasons they are even more expensive and for the most part they are ugly. One of the few new Rolls I see here in Akron is Lebron James Rolls but even he does not drive it often as he spends more time in his other toys from Ferrari or even the family truckster they use to take the family out shopping or out to eat. .

    Cadillac needs to focus on the ATS, LTS and the CTS to make them the best in class. Then we can revisit this.

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    I was never a fan for going the Super Luxury route yet... I feel it's a waste. I'd love to see Cadillac successfully fight a 7-series, A8, S-class. I don't think they have it in them just yet, but they're close. I feel that's where they should focus their attentions right now.

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    "Rolls" has enjoyed some true longevity in the cache of the name, but the factual matter is that the brand slipped far behind being any sort of class leader sometime in the 1920s. Rolls didn't get an 8-cylinder until 1959 IIRC, or FORTY-FIVE YEARS after Cadillac introduce theirs. A/C didn't appear until sometime circa the mid '50s, or around 15 years after Cadillac. By the mid '60s, a Rolls had circa a whopping 215 HP and couldn't lumber out of it's own way. Most of the styling was a full decade behind the industry and there was no engineering department... at all. It was a well built car; well built but boring, archaic and spartanly-equipped with poor performance in every metric.

    The only buzz up to that point was the short-lived appearance of the ungainly Camargue in the late '70s. Google up a pic of the interior and gape at that black rubber school bus steering wheel (finish/design, not diameter). Whew.

    To state it accurately, Rolls first ceased to be competitive with Cadillac about 85 years ago.

    But, as with the case with Rolls today, a proper product can turn things around 180 degrees. I actually like the current Rolls (via pics; I've yet to see one in person). A proper Cadillac could absolutely compete in the ultra-lux / Rolls level... but whether now is the time, is another matter. Agree that the s-class level is much more important, now & long-term.

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    Not true as while Cadillac on the option sheet could beat the flying lady in image and prestige Cadillac has not competed since the custom body V16 cars.

    Rolls was never really that great of a technical car but they have built heritage and image on styling and hand craftsman's ship. Also for a long time as one of the most expensive cars you can buy. Today they are just a large over priced ugly BMW.

    Until Cadillac has gotten the rest of their products in line they will not have the image to produce such a car. Even for Benz the Maybach failed as it never had the styling and was seen as many as just a over priced Benz.

    Lets get the rest of the new lines out and see where the market is and go from there. Lets face it if the LTS is not class leading then why bother with a even more expensive model. Right now the money is in the mid priced expensive cars in the 100K-175K range and they can look into that at some point but being there is not going to make or break Cadillac. The ATS and CTS being better than all other is where Cadillac's future image lies.

    BMW's present image was built with the 3 series not with buying Rolls Royce. If anything I think they have hurt Rolls more then helped them with their styling.

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    ^ You are incorrect and ignore the Eldorado Brougham Drew posted, leaps & bounds over any Rolls that decade or the following TWO. World's better car with a better image to boot.

    In the '30s Cadillac had V8s, V12s and V16s while all Rolls offered was a 6. "Competed" then? More like 'blew out of the water'. Rolls existed sheerly on quality of craftsmanship, but that's hardly enough to be 'competitive'. Which it wasn't.

    Image is made on the back of product. Build the product and the image always follows, not the other way around. You know Pontiac & their image circa 1954, and what occurred over the next 10 years, right?

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    Get the ATS and CTS right; that's 80% of the pie. They can worry about the S-class segment later. Besides, it doesn't really have to be a brang new platform. It can be a double-stretched Alpha with widened sills.

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    Seems to me that Cadillac ought to find diversity in variants of its existing models first, before it tackles a Rolls beater.

    Pretty much: Cadillac's game right now is to build a solid product structure by covering the key bases (core models and variants of those) and if successful, then take the high-end gamble with a fully dedicated model. Platform sharing (Omega), yes, but no commonality in visible parts other than the Cadillac badge.

    @ dwightlooi - Maybe that's exactly what Omega is? An adaptation of Alpha to larger vehicles?

    Edited by ZL-1
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    ^ You are incorrect and ignore the Eldorado Brougham Drew posted, leaps & bounds over any Rolls that decade or the following TWO. World's better car with a better image to boot.

    In the '30s Cadillac had V8s, V12s and V16s while all Rolls offered was a 6. "Competed" then? More like 'blew out of the water'. Rolls existed sheerly on quality of craftsmanship, but that's hardly enough to be 'competitive'. Which it wasn't.

    Image is made on the back of product. Build the product and the image always follows, not the other way around. You know Pontiac & their image circa 1954, and what occurred over the next 10 years, right?

    Image Is part product but much of it is Marketing! Lets face it some of the most popular cars today have great public Images and many are just ok cars.

    With Pontiac and I am a Pontiac fan the keys to their changes were in styling risks and with good solid marketing. Wanger was and is yet today full of hot air but he marketed the Pontiac image. While he talks a lot about the GTO today his marketing affected every Pontiac.

    Look at the imagery of the Fitzpatrick and Kaufman illustrations. Today they are considered art work and back then it sold a image and perception of these cars.

    While Pontiac did many things to change them they still started with the same damn platform Chevy was given as well as Buick and Olds in most of their cars. They learned to get the look down, how to market it and used performance and racing to present it.

    Pontiac in the last few years was not really getting the look down on some cars and they were a performance division that really had no performance out side two cars.

    Cadillac has the look and they are damn close on the performance. They only lack a few minor things that I expect them to fix. I only wish they would take the advertising to the next level. The S class is needed as this is a three model class of cars. The XTS is ok but it not what they really need in a flag ship. Having a FWD car is ok but it should not be your flag ship even with AWD.

    Cadillac can move up but they first need to earn the right to do so. The direction they are going shows they can do it but the fact is they still have to do it and it takes time to redeem an image from where they placed it. They will earn the customers trust but lets let the ATS and CTS have some time to do their work. In the mean time GM needs to address any and all issues asap and make these cars best in class with no reservations.

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    Cadillac is no where near being ready to go after Rolls or Bentley, they probably never will be. Rolls-Royce can charge $400,000+ for a Phantom, that is rarefied air. You could argue that the Hyundai Equus is closer to an top end luxury sedan than anything Cadillac as. GM let Cadillac's image weaken in the 1970s, then dragged it through the mud in the 80s, 90s, and it wasn't until around 2003 when they starting to pump some life back into it.

    They have yet to prove they can challenge the 5-series and E-class, let along climbing up the ladder. The ATS and CTS are where to start, if those cars succeed, then it is time for an S-class level car, but you have to go all in, or it will flop. It would probably be the biggest R&D budget GM has ever put into a car.

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    mercedes is also no where near ready to go after rolls/bentley- they tried & failed. mercedes cannot even get sticker on the s-class.

    5-series/e-class 'challenge' has already been met & matched with the 3rd gen CTS; 3-series has been eclipsed by the ATS. Volume should follow, but the german twins have already reached mainstream volume levels- they have whored out exclusivity for profits. Cadillac should keep their volume contained, avoid the gab-ass minivans/ econoboxes/ cargo trucks and build on exclusivity. Lower volume, higher profit should be the goal.

    Image is made on the back of product. Build the product and the image always follows, not the other way around. You know Pontiac & their image circa 1954, and what occurred over the next 10 years, right?

    While Pontiac did many things to change them they still started with the same damn platform Chevy was given as well as Buick and Olds in most of their cars. They learned to get the look down, how to market it and used performance and racing to present it.

    If you are referring to the period I mentioned, they certainly were not "the same damn 'platforms'" (no 'platforms'; BOF cars). Each Division in this era (thru the early '60s) designed their own. Buick's was totally unique out of the five '59s. Only thing Pontiac & Chevy started out with was the same damned body shell mounting points & the same greenhouses... the rest was proprietary.

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    mercedes is also no where near ready to go after rolls/bentley- they tried & failed. mercedes cannot even get sticker on the s-class.

    5-series/e-class 'challenge' has already been met & matched with the 3rd gen CTS; 3-series has been eclipsed by the ATS. Volume should follow, but the german twins have already reached mainstream volume levels- they have whored out exclusivity for profits. Cadillac should keep their volume contained, avoid the gab-ass minivans/ econoboxes/ cargo trucks and build on exclusivity. Lower volume, higher profit should be the goal.

    Image is made on the back of product. Build the product and the image always follows, not the other way around. You know Pontiac & their image circa 1954, and what occurred over the next 10 years, right?

    While Pontiac did many things to change them they still started with the same damn platform Chevy was given as well as Buick and Olds in most of their cars. They learned to get the look down, how to market it and used performance and racing to present it.

    If you are referring to the period I mentioned, they certainly were not "the same damn 'platforms'" (no 'platforms'; BOF cars). Each Division in this era (thru the early '60s) designed their own. Buick's was totally unique out of the five '59s. Only thing Pontiac & Chevy started out with was the same damned body shell mounting points & the same greenhouses... the rest was proprietary.

    Calm down I was speaking of the 60's as many of the platforms were melding together at that time. Not as bad as later as they each had their little tricks but they did share a lot more than many want to admit. But on the other hand it makes it easier to restore them today.

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    ^ "1954 & next 10 years" equals 1964- still different.
    Too many like to brush off Divisional engineering with an offhanded 'they've always been the same damn thing'. I've watched this with a focused eye occur on the internet over the last 15 years, but it needs to be corrected before we get to the point that 'the Cadillac V-12 was just 2 Chevy straight sixes welded together.' Slippery slope and all that. ;)

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      GM’s fleet mix in August was 17 percent of total sales, below the company’s full-year guidance of 20 percent and 19 percent year to date According to plan, daily rental sales were 10 percent of GM’s total sales for August and 10 percent year to date with deliveries up 4 percent in August Large vans were up 18 percent for August Sales to small business are up 3 percent year to date Industry Sales
      GM estimates that the seasonally adjusted annual selling rate (SAAR) for light vehicles in August was approximately 17.2 million units. On a calendar year-to-date basis, GM estimates the light-vehicle SAAR was 17.3 million units
    • By William Maley
      If there was one vehicle that was the talk during Monterey Car Week, it would have to be the Cadillac Escala concept. Unlike other concepts that Cadillac has shown during this time, various ideas will appear on future Cadillac models.
      "There's a lot of stuff that's being captured here. All of that won't necessarily find itself coming out in one car; it will be spread through the portfolio," said Johan de Nysschen, Cadillac's president to Automotive News.
      One of the key items that will be spread around is the Escala's design. Compared to Cadillac's sharp and angular design language, the design on Escala is a complete departure with curves and smooth edges. de Nysschen said production models with this look will arrive in 2019. Automotive News speculates that the next-generation CTS (soon to be renamed CT5) will be the first model to sport the look.
      The twin-turbo 4.2L V8 is another part that will be appearing in future Cadillac models. One vehicle that might get it is the current CT6 sedan. When asked, de Nysschen wouldn't give an answer, only saying the brand is considering it for future models.
      But what about the Escala itself? If we go back to our original story on Friday, we pulled a quote from the press release made by de Nysschen saying the following,
      “Escala is a concept car, but one based upon the unrelenting rise of our product substance. Depending on the development of market segment for large luxury sedans, Escala is a potential addition to our existing product plan.”
      Would it take the place of the long-rumored CT8 or sit beside it? No one is quite sure. But de Nysschen did reveal one important detail about the CT8 project. The model is on hold, not canceled as some reports have said earlier in the year. The reason comes down consumers going toward crossovers and SUVs at a quick rate.
      "These are precisely the things that we are just saying: "Let's step back a moment and see whether it's just an energy/price thing, or is it a more sustained shake-up?'"
      de Nysschen said the brand is looking at various options at the moment such as merging the CT6 and CT8 into one vehicle like the Escala, using a new crossover as the flagship, or doing some combination of the two.
      Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      If there was one vehicle that was the talk during Monterey Car Week, it would have to be the Cadillac Escala concept. Unlike other concepts that Cadillac has shown during this time, various ideas will appear on future Cadillac models.
      "There's a lot of stuff that's being captured here. All of that won't necessarily find itself coming out in one car; it will be spread through the portfolio," said Johan de Nysschen, Cadillac's president to Automotive News.
      One of the key items that will be spread around is the Escala's design. Compared to Cadillac's sharp and angular design language, the design on Escala is a complete departure with curves and smooth edges. de Nysschen said production models with this look will arrive in 2019. Automotive News speculates that the next-generation CTS (soon to be renamed CT5) will be the first model to sport the look.
      The twin-turbo 4.2L V8 is another part that will be appearing in future Cadillac models. One vehicle that might get it is the current CT6 sedan. When asked, de Nysschen wouldn't give an answer, only saying the brand is considering it for future models.
      But what about the Escala itself? If we go back to our original story on Friday, we pulled a quote from the press release made by de Nysschen saying the following,
      “Escala is a concept car, but one based upon the unrelenting rise of our product substance. Depending on the development of market segment for large luxury sedans, Escala is a potential addition to our existing product plan.”
      Would it take the place of the long-rumored CT8 or sit beside it? No one is quite sure. But de Nysschen did reveal one important detail about the CT8 project. The model is on hold, not canceled as some reports have said earlier in the year. The reason comes down consumers going toward crossovers and SUVs at a quick rate.
      "These are precisely the things that we are just saying: "Let's step back a moment and see whether it's just an energy/price thing, or is it a more sustained shake-up?'"
      de Nysschen said the brand is looking at various options at the moment such as merging the CT6 and CT8 into one vehicle like the Escala, using a new crossover as the flagship, or doing some combination of the two.
      Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)
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