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    Drew Dowdell

    SPIED: Chevy's smallest EV drops its CAMO!

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    Drew Dowdell - February 24, 2012 - CheersandGears.com

    Photo by Chris Doane Automotive, LLC - May not be used elsewhere without permission of photographer.

    The last time we saw a 2014 Spark EV prototype, the front end was covered in heavy camouflage and rear was held together with pop-rivets. Today, we've spied another Spark EV prototype with the production bodywork in place and almost NO camouflage.

    From our spy photos, we can see the Spark EV will get a different front end from its' gasoline brother. A new, smaller grille is in place, with filler panels that mimic the styling of the panels we find on the Chevy Volt. The Spark EV also has a new lower fascia and new styling around the fog lights.

    On the driver's side, front quarter panel, the door to access the charging port is clearly visible.

    The rear fascia on the Spark EV is also new, and looks to protrude from the car more than the bumper we find on the gasoline-powered Spark. This is likely to provide more room for the battery pack. It's also easy to see that this Spark is, of course, NOT sporting any tailpipes.

    Motivation for the Spark EV will come from a 114hp, permanent magnet electric motor, built at a GM plant in White Marsh Maryland. That motor will get its' juice from a lithium-ion pack manufactured by A123 Systems.

    GM will hope to have this all-electric Spark on sale sometime in the first half of 2013.

    Full size photo:

    Chevrolet Spark EV without camo

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    With the explosive publicity on the fires on the Volt I would think a name change would be in order here.

    Spark would be a bad choice of name if anything goes wrong. LOL!

    Great job Chris! Not only did you get a Spark but the EV one at that.

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    Very Cool Chris, Nice Catch.

    So is that Rear Suicide doors as I do not see any handles but it does look like the rear portion behind the front door opens.

    I have to say that I like this look much better than the Leaf and for me, the Spark name does not bother me even with the Almost zero volt fires. People who are hung up on this due to what was extreme impact hits way beyond normal are crazy.

    A normal gas car can explode if hit right also and burn.

    Spark way to go, you should be a hit for those of average height and needing a city commuter car.

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    Probably will be priced closer to the Mitsubishi i than the Leaf..

    Maybe...tough to say with the jump in prices....the 2013 Mali is a good example, being priced in the low to mid 30s already...

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    Maybe...tough to say with the jump in prices....the 2013 Mali is a good example, being priced in the low to mid 30s already...

    Blech...can't imagine paying 30s for a 4cyl FWD appliance..

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    ya know..... i have no issue what so ever with electric cars with todays technology i see a future where electric cars and gas powered cars are competitive. sure you dont have the pleasant roar of a good ol hemi. but isnt that what classics are for? even in a world where electric cars and gas cars compete gas cars will still be made because of that same reason, they may just end up being more expensive. some electric cars can even be competitive in the HP range. but my problem with electric cars is they are so ungodly ugly! now before you go mark down my post there are a few acceptable ones out there. but the majority of electric cars look like poo. i get what they are trying to do "lets look different then the gas cars!" but if you wanna sell electric cars to gas car people MAKE THEM LOOK THE SAME! it seems the trend is to make the car as small and pathetic as possible, which to muscle car fanatics is a big no no. now i personally didnt like THIS car before hand as the spark but this rant was more a general rant LOL

    Edited by fullmoon97
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    Maybe...tough to say with the jump in prices....the 2013 Mali is a good example, being priced in the low to mid 30s already...

    Blech...can't imagine paying 30s for a 4cyl FWD appliance..

    Me either....

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    Be honest with yourselves... what is this thing even good for? What's the range? Where's the support infrastructure? It's a freaking golf cart, for heaven's sake. Jeers.

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    I just have a feeling they will try to shoot for a price $25K-30K. Thecar is based an a produciton car with bits from the Volt. I think price is everything here.

    What is this car good for? Not much else other than the PR aspect that if you have it you are a good company and if you don't you hate the enviroment.

    Also the EV market has to start some where. It will contunue to develope till it reaches the point where these cars will have the batteries and faster charging in time. But with no market few suppliers will invest in these technologies.

    Kind of like Gasoline. When the first Gas powered cars came out there were no gas stations. You had to mix it yourself. As more cars hit the roads filling stations with better and improved fuels arrived. If it were not for those pioneers who built and sold the first mostly useless gas powered cars to vreate a market segment the develpment would have taken years longer.

    If no demad is created then there is little market to fill.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    Auto company heads worldwide have gone on record saying they know electrics are bad investments of their companies' money. It's a joke. A bad joke.

    EDIT: now, a diesel Spark would be a good idea. Chevrolet would be able to actually SELL a diesel Spark, it's ready to go!

    Edited by ocnblu
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    if its such a joke why do Auto companies around the world have entire teams devoted to making these cars better? lets face it. when the hybrid first came out this same thing happened because of the shell it was in. not to mention it wasn't really that impressive. now we have hybrids in all shapes, sizes, and they are much better then they were. the problem with these technologies is they aren't perfect. thats why you dont see a mass flood of electric cars out. don't worry gas cars will be majority for another decade or 4. just let the car companies have their fun :).

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    The reason they fool with these is two fold. the Green Movment is only getting stronger and stronger in many markets , Europe being the most notible. Jeremy Clarkson is my hero for speaking out as he does as it not a popuar message he sends.

    The second reason is the new regulations mony countries are now putting in place now that will effect all future production.

    The fact is if they could avoid all these crazy electric cars and add on's they woulb but they are desperate to find ways so you do not end up in a Chevy version of a TATA.

    So if you want car bigger than a toaster you will have to learn to accpet these crazy ideas and hope they keep improving.

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    Accept that they exist?

    OK, fine.

    Accept that they are all there will be to choose from?

    Not on your life.

    Say nice things about them?

    Not likely.

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    Maybe...tough to say with the jump in prices....the 2013 Mali is a good example, being priced in the low to mid 30s already...

    Blech...can't imagine paying 30s for a 4cyl FWD appliance..

    and our parents probably didn't imagine paying over 10K for any car that wasn't a "super car" or top of the line lux, like for a cadi.

    http://www.inthe70s.com/prices.shtml

    at most the average car was 1/2 the average wage and the average house was < 8 years of wages.

    anyone born before the 70's has seen lots of inflation. don't be so surprised if cars are still made in our life time that the basic price will be $50K+(unless financial meltdown occurs, which would be worldwide)

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    ok here is a reality check for you.. there WILL COME A DAY that electric will be the only thing to choose from. either that or some sort of other renewable resource. its gonna happen. you can accept that or not but it will happen. there will be a day when gas cars will be a thing of the past. saying you dont accept that will happen is like saying you dont accept that some day you will die. NOW you can choose to get all pitchforky about it now. or you can accept that its gonna happen and start the more relevant topic of lets make them the best they can be. lets make them something people of all demos wanna buy. personnally there is no reasonably priced electric car on the market that i wanna buy. BUT i know there will come a day that there will be one. having an electric car does not mean the end of the industry it means a shift within the industry. if these cars were such a joke there would not be a mad dash to make the best one. for right now the auto industry is keeping to gas cars as a safty net. they know it works. but some companies are stepping up to the plate and taking some swings. dodge has yet to do this but i do see them possibly starting soon. just let this topic die because honestly if you dont think its gonna happen then you are just in denial over something that wont change much.

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    I like noise. I like unlimited travel. Flowmaster and Octane Forever! :metal:

    Edited by ocnblu

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    here is the thing. i like those things too. and we still have them. but we wont always. and thats what you need to grasp, and if im being honest cars dont have unlimited travel anyway. you gotta fill up sometime. so when it comes to electric cars what they need to work on is recharge time. SEE we ARE making progress!!

    Edited by fullmoon97
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    I wouldn't be too sure about an all-electric future, unless it happens via government mandate. Even then, it is a long way off. As for getting "pitchforky", I'll do that as I please. And the car itself? I wouldn't buy it if it ran on tap water and baked cookies while doing so. It's a tiny little crapbox, and painfully ugly on top of it.

    Edited by Camino LS6

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    here is the bottom line. i LOVE my gas guzzleing 18 mpg intrepid. i love this thing in an unhealthy way. but if a better looking, running, cheaper, better CAR came along you bet your sweet bippy id buy it. this car? NO but i am sure there will be one soon enough in what i am certain will be a gas free future. now let me explain why i believe electric will take over. you take a look at the pump lately its 3.63 last time i filled up. they are predicting 5 dollars over the summer, the highest its ever been. if that trend continues as more electric cars become avaliable you can count on them switching over to electric. now maybe YOU wont but the mass consumers will. because its cheaper for them to plug the car into the wall then to go to the pump. now it may take a decade or two but i see electric becoming at least the majority in the future. and beyond that a thing of the past. is it sad to see our loud friends go? yea but things come and go. its just a matter of how soon you adapt.

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    When an all-electric, 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup that charges as fast as you can fill a gas version, has the same range, and the same payload/towing ability, equal 0-60 times, and a price tag that's on a par, then we can talk.

    Oil is on its way out to be sure, but electric may never be what supplants it. Certainly not if the best it can do is a glorified golf cart like the Spark EV or the Leaf.

    Now the Volt is another story...

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    Accept that they exist?

    OK, fine.

    Accept that they are all there will be to choose from?

    Not on your life.

    Say nice things about them?

    Not likely.

    The future is not going to be an all electric future that soon. Gas will be with us for a while yet but the hybrid systems like GM and others that are being offered now are going to become more and more the standard driveline for most cars.

    You have a admin right now the goverment right now is putting in place a 50 Plus MPG average for the fleet and there is no way the cars of today can do that on gas alone. The companies are looking for anyway they can to keep power, performance and size and these hybird systems are the only key they have found do far.

    The more they can get those who what these golf carts to be able to afford and buy them will ease up space for those of us who what something more.

    I also see a goverment right now that has no interest in trying to keep the oil markets in check and if gas goes up so be it. The average joe out there is not willing to pay a ton for gas so they will seek out other means to save on their gas bill no matter if it is a full electric or hybrid.

    While cars like the Vette seem to be safe.... for now we .......are seeing even some of the best sports car makers in the world working on hybrids. It is not because they want to but because they have to.

    I bumped you back to a 0 for the -1 as you should be allowed to vent.

    Like it on along with the electrics we will also get smaller and smaller engines. I just saw a Ford 1.0 with something like 173 HP.

    To be honest I am hoping the Volt technology takes of and becomes more affordable as I see this car as a win win for both groups. There is so much more they can do with this kind of system.

    The fact is there is still many many years of oil but with increased demand and without a equal growing supply will just make it more and more expensive. No matter if we pump our own or not oil is a traded resource and supply and demand contols the cost. Demand is only going to get greater and supplies will not grow much.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    have you looked at some of what tesla makes? there 0 to 50s are below 5 seconds. their roadster is 3.7. payload and towing will be easy to figure out once the distance is figured out. and price tag isnt THAT far off. right now the reason they are more expensive is the ammount of money that was put in them. right now electric cars are random swings. but some of those swings have perked the ears of some. right now the charge time for some of these cars is around 4 hours. (which is actually less than i thought) but new battery technology is being worked all the time. with electric cars its not about the car industry improveing this technology they are taking technology that is being made by other companies and trying it out. there are entire companies devoted to longer lasting faster charging batteries and its only a matter of time before they have a 500 mile battery that charges in 3 min.

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    have you looked at some of what tesla makes? there 0 to 50s are below 5 seconds. their roadster is 3.7. payload and towing will be easy to figure out once the distance is figured out. and price tag isnt THAT far off. right now the reason they are more expensive is the ammount of money that was put in them. right now electric cars are random swings. but some of those swings have perked the ears of some. right now the charge time for some of these cars is around 4 hours. (which is actually less than i thought) but new battery technology is being worked all the time. with electric cars its not about the car industry improveing this technology they are taking technology that is being made by other companies and trying it out. there are entire companies devoted to longer lasting faster charging batteries and its only a matter of time before they have a 500 mile battery that charges in 3 min.

    I'm well aware of Tesla.

    As for taking the tech to the level of a 500 mile range on a 3 minute charge, there are two problems with that. Even if it is attained, no infrastructure of charging stations exists, and you begin to strain the grid when any significant number of cars move to electric.

    Unless a way is devised to generate the power on board the vehicle, the future of all electric cars looks quite finite.

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    What we ought not to be doing is burning oil to generate electricity, and heating our houses directly with oil.

    Those two areas are far easier to change than the national vehicle fleet.

    And that fleet should be running on the widest possible range of fuels/energy .

    Yes, electric makes sense in some applications, but it will never be as broadly useful as gasoline has been.

    In fact, I hope that nothing ever becomes so universally depended upon as oil based fuels have been. That's a disaster as we should have learned by now.

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    One big thing electric has on its side is the whole "don't become completely dependent on one thing", since it can be produced so many ways. But, for the foreseeable future, pure electric cars will have range & charge time issues, so they're not a universal solution yet. Though it occurs to me, what if an electric essentially had like 5 batteries that were charged separately? You pull in, and an array of 5 (or whatever number) chargers all worked at once...

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    i LOVE my gas guzzleing 18 mpg intrepid.

    Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but 18mpg out of an Intrepid? I somehow find that number hard to believe. My Challenger always averaged about 24 to 25mpg mixed and it was a heavier car with rather broad-shouldered build.

    With regards to the rest of your post, I'll say that I understand where Camino is coming from. Take this post for example:

    When an all-electric, 3/4 ton 4x4 pickup that charges as fast as you can fill a gas version, has the same range, and the same payload/towing ability, equal 0-60 times, and a price tag that's on a par, then we can talk.

    Camino is someone who actually uses a heavy-duty pickup for work, so see it from his perspective. A purpose-built workhorse like a Silverado or Ram 2500 truck can reliably stand up to the constant abuse of towing and hauling over any sort of terrain, be it asphalt or some rutted out washboard of a trail. Electric cars are fairly delicate devices of transport and somehow I don't think a small truck packed full of laptop batteries can withstand the same sort of punishment I just described.

    Could one eventually? Sure, why not. But gas-powered pickups were tough as an old pair of boots from day one. It's going to take quite a bit of effort and time to make an all-electric, battery-powered pickup match the same effort of ruggedness that its conventionally-powered counterparts offer.

    However, I will admit that there's one advantage an electric-pickup could have over a gas or diesel-powered one and it's that old golden egg of "max torque at zero revs." That simply won't be enough, though.

    What design might prove to be a good starting point then? What could power our trucks and cars of tomorrow? Well, it doesn't involve 50 tons of batteries that take the rest of your life to charge. Instead of describing it, I'll just leave you with the following video.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/4AUurBnLbJw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    SPOILER ALERT: It involves hydrogen-derived electric power.

    I also feel the need to add that exclusively battery-powered cars like the upcoming Chevy Spark EV and the Nissan Leaf have their place in tomorrow’s automotive world.

    First, we must face the ugly truth about them — even with the best battery technology we have today, these things will never be an honest match for a gasoline-powered car. The range simply is far too limited and the recharging times far too long so, yes, that spells unlimited inconvenience for long-distance drivers, especially people like myself who live in a rural area and live miles away from any extended family.

    So what role would they play? That’s an easy question to answer. These battery-powered electric cars would be sold as city runabouts, marketed mainly to folks who live in big urban areas and their very closely-knit suburbs. People that have no idea what a country road really looks like or what a long trip or commute really feels like. With a maximum range of 100 miles, these would be cars built for people who drive to work 15 to 30 miles in one direction and only leave the house otherwise to run 10 to 20 miles to a supermarket or shopping mall.

    In order for these cars to secure their place in the auto world of the future, automakers should instead focus on making them much cheaper to buy than what you can today and not bothering so much with chasing the range rabbit down its big, black hole. As cars like the Honda FCX Clarity show, we already know how to make electric vehicles work, we just have to add to — not totally rebuild — our current infrastructure. It’s really that simple.

    Edited by black-knight

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    now it may take a decade or two but i see electric becoming at least the majority in the future. and beyond that a thing of the past. is it sad to see our loud friends go? yea but things come and go. its just a matter of how soon you adapt.

    Its not a matter of how soon you adapt. Most electrics are cars that have been impossible to nearly impossible for me to get into, let alone drive. [Note: I have not actually sat in a Volt yet, but I suspect it will be tight.] Unless the electrics lead to a resurgence of REAL fullsize cars, I'm going to be forced to drive larger trucks... and I'm skeptical about any all electric trucks...

    And with the average American BMI soaring into the stratosphere, small cars and fat Americans are not a good combo.

    have you looked at some of what tesla makes? there 0 to 50s are below 5 seconds. their roadster is 3.7. payload and towing will be easy to figure out once the distance is figured out. and price tag isnt THAT far off.

    there are entire companies devoted to longer lasting faster charging batteries and its only a matter of time before they have a 500 mile battery that charges in 3 min.

    We are all aware of Tesla and so far is way expensive and bordering on vaporware.

    500 mile battery that charges in 3 min? You would have a better chance hoping for Mr. Fusion. Physics aren't going to allow for such a refill for at least a century, unless the actual battery pack is swapped... which IS a technology/business model that has been investigated.

    Don't blindly trusty science to fix this. We don't have a cure for cancer, we don't live forever, we don't have cheap flying cars/rocket packs and we don't have virtually instant recharging batteries because some problems are HARD and will thwart us for a long time.

    We will have near immortality due to nanobots correcting the genetic errors in our bodies and Mr. Fusion before we have a 500 mile battery pack that recharges in 3 minutes because the latter problem runs into severe physic limitations and we have a finite number of chemical compounds to throw at the problem.

    It makes not a lick of sense to me that we export so much petroleum.

    It does to me. Many of the foreign markets are selling until the walls are bare... and the 1% in the US that own all the oil reserves know this. Why sell oil now at $110 a barrel when you can outlast the competition and sell oil for $1100 a barrel in 2040? For now, just sell the minmum to keep the US 1% up to their necks in coke, prostitutes and fast cars.

    Plus, for all we know, that same 1% own (and have buried) all the patents on the techniques needed to turn water into synthetic gasoline for pennies a gallon.

    One big thing electric has on its side is the whole "don't become completely dependent on one thing", since it can be produced so many ways. But, for the foreseeable future, pure electric cars will have range & charge time issues, so they're not a universal solution yet. Though it occurs to me, what if an electric essentially had like 5 batteries that were charged separately? You pull in, and an array of 5 (or whatever number) chargers all worked at once...

    Wouldn't work... in general. Its pretty easy to make a big charger, but the chokepoint is the heat generated in the batteries. Assuming you can have a temp sensor for each battery, you could charge each battery at its fastest, limited by the individual battery temperature, but this would likely only save less than ten percent in time. It would be great from a battery equalization point of view... but the next problem is the number of batteries... Tesla uses 6831 cells... that would require 6831 chargers. Hope you have 1.21 gigawatt service.

    Of course, heat is the number one reason I don't foresee fullmoon97's 500 mile battery pack recharging in 3 minutes, but its not just inside the battery pack... its the entire circuit. I suppose we can do some rough math... Tesla claims a battery-to-wheel efficiency of 17.7kWh/100 mi. Ignoring charging losses, that is 88.5kWh that needs to be stuffed into a battery... in 3 minutes... 1770kW... 1.77 MW... This is the amount of power an electric locomotive generates at peak. This would vaporize solid 4/0 AWG wire... I can't spec out the size wire required, but it would be at least a foot thick. Your house has 200 Amp service (4/0 AWG)? Well, to charge a 500 mile battery in 3 minutes, you need 8045 Amp (at 220V) service. You would need to build a nuclear power plant for each 250 cars concurrently being charged.

    Edited by SAmadei

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    The performance is not a issue and with most alterinitives the range issue and refil or recharge time is an issue. Even on like the Chevy Fuel Cell Car I drove thar performace was fine and up to waht we have today. It had better range vs an electric. But it would take nearly 30 mins to fill. The goverment and few companies have even made an attempt to provide more places to fill them and why should they if they have few customers.

    Until the range issue is up to 300 plus miles and recharge times down do less than a few mins the electric cars will always be at a disadvantage.

    As fro not makeing sense on the exports you have to understand that oil in the 70's became a globally traded commodity. Companies now trade and sell oil in global market governed by supply and demand. In the past it provided more money for our companies at a still low price. Now that the rest of the world is moving out of the third world status it the demand has gone up as well as the price and supplies get tighter.

    Places like Saudia Arabia can just step up production to lower prices that is if they want too. Hence why we try to stay on their good side. Iran id like that for China and Russia. That is one issue why China and Russia do not want anyone one to stop Iran from selling oil. Also if we stopped them the Chinese and Russians will just buy more from where we get it and drive prices up more.

    It is not really possible to just stop exporting oil with the way it is and even if we did the market value would still be subject to the global price.

    Edited by hyperv6

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    The problem with electric cars isn't so much in their limitations and shortcomings, the real problem is the perception that they are panacea.

    They are most definitely not.

    Meanwhile, real, practical alternatives are being stifled by the very government that proclaims their necessity and , in some cases, subsidizes them. The EPA throws unnecessary roadblocks in the way of expanding the use of (and creating the market for) diesel, propane, CNG, and ethanol by clinging to outdated and restrictive testing requirements like some sort of sacred text.

    Diversity of energy supply is the answer we need, and our own "leaders" are the reason we don't already have it.

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    Oh, and one more thing, any "solution" that doesn't make possible the conversion of our existing national fleet is no solution at all. If we want to change things, a push to convert the cars we have now is a requirement.

    We have done nothing to facilitate this.

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    Camino is right about the EPA and its rules. Of course, the best answer would be to get Congress to have these rules rescinded, but they need to be bought off first. Worse yet, I was reading in the last few days that natural gas is cheaper now than it was 5 years ago and that there are plans (by several companies) to export it to other countries to make more $$$ since natural gas prices are a lot higher elsewhere than here in the USA.

    As for the EVs on the market now or within the next 24 months, I have two questions. Will they work in Detroit or Minneapolis in a harsh winter? And how fast are we going to upgrade (and possibly replace parts of) our electrical infrastructure? The grid in some places are 50 years old or more and it is in poor shape as we speak. No reason to put electric cars charging to a grid that dates from the Eisenhower administration.

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    And with the average American BMI soaring into the stratosphere, small cars and fat Americans are not a good combo.

    Obesity is a national epidemic...the proliferation of fast food and poor diets are a major quality of life issue that needs to be addressed, but that's a topic for another forum...

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    i LOVE my gas guzzleing 18 mpg intrepid.

    Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but 18mpg out of an Intrepid? I somehow find that number hard to believe. My Challenger always averaged about 24 to 25mpg mixed and it was a heavier car with rather broad-shouldered build.

    im gonna answer this then im done. your challenger is a 2010 2011 im guessing something in there. my intrepid is a 1997. do you reaize the vast improvements that have been made in fuel mileage in that amount of time? i could care less if u find it hard to believe but my car is old and has issues. i love it to death but i could care less about the mileage it gets because i know its past.

    Edited by fullmoon97

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    im gonna answer this then im done. your challenger is a 2010 2011 im guessing something in there. my intrepid is a 1997. do you reaize the vast improvements that have been made in fuel mileage in that amount of time? i could care less if u find it hard to believe but my car is old and has issues. i love it to death but i could care less about the mileage it gets because i know its past.

    Uh, yikes? No need to bare your fangs, man. I wasn’t posting that as an insult or anything, just as an observation.

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    Don't care... which is the whole point about electrics! You don't care where the electricity is coming from as long as you're getting it. You like to &#036;h&#33; all over the Volt and Leaf and even the eAssist Lacrosse for using electricity. So the source of the electric doesn't seem to matter to you. As the technology continues to improve, battery range will get you further. In the meantime there are vehicles like the Volt to mitigate that problem. Electric is the power of the fastest land based vehicles on earth that move through the force of their wheels.

    So no, I don't care where the power is from. The point is I'm running at 125mph under electric propulsion which is faster than ANY of the vehicles you have owned can go. IF by chance you did own one that could reach 125mph... in an hour I'll be in the 150mph zone.

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    Electric trains are practical. They stay on track. I posted an interesting GM video about the 1966 Electrovair II, which has similar range to today's "state of the art" full electric cars. I don't see any leap in range.

    I've said the Volt is the best electrified car, but it is not worth twice the price of a Cruze. And with diesel coming, the Cruze will continue to be a much more attractive, useful car.

    We subscribe to Ward's at work. We just got their "10 Best Engines" issue. LaCrosse eAssist is not on the list... why? They go to the trouble of explaining why, their article states the system is barely more efficient than the base 2.4L, but it costs $2k more. They also lay out why the Volt didn't make the list, but I did not take the time to read that part. I should bring the magazine home and read the whole article. They DO like the Volt, but something held them back from adding it.

    ??? Not that it matters a stitch, but I did have my 2000 GTI to 135 mph. And I'm sure my '86 Camaro would have at least matched that figure, but I only got to 110 before I saw the patrol car. An electric train at 150 mph on a track is under very controlled conditions, more controlled than any roadgoing vehicle. Please do not make this personal, Drew.

    Edited by ocnblu

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    Oh but it does matter where the juice comes from - just saying.

    And the Volt?

    It's the only electric car that makes any sense.

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    Electric trains are practical. They stay on track. I posted an interesting GM video about the 1966 Electrovair II, which has similar range to today's "state of the art" full electric cars. I don't see any leap in range.

    I've said the Volt is the best electrified car, but it is not worth twice the price of a Cruze. And with diesel coming, the Cruze will continue to be a much more attractive, useful car.

    We subscribe to Ward's at work. We just got their "10 Best Engines" issue. LaCrosse eAssist is not on the list... why? They go to the trouble of explaining why, their article states the system is barely more efficient than the base 2.4L, but it costs $2k more. They also lay out why the Volt didn't make the list, but I did not take the time to read that part. I should bring the magazine home and read the whole article. They DO like the Volt, but something held them back from adding it.

    "barely better than the base 2.4" isn't at all correct. The base 2.4 in the Lacrosse was barely able to eek out 30mpg highway and got an abysmal 19 in the city. You had to work that engine hard to wheel around the weight of the Lacrosse. I did 36mpg highway / 27 mpg city in the eAssist Lacrosse. Now, some of the eAssist increase in mileage does come from an improved 6-speed transmission, but not that much.

    The 2.4 is aging. I wouldn't expect it in any form to be on the Wards 10 best anymore. Watch the 2.5 though.

    If there is anything holding them back on the Volt it is the gasoline engine. It is an old technology family zero 4-cylinder that is tuned to run on premium. As advanced as the rest of the Volt power train is, the 4-cylinder in there is about as old-school as GM has on the shelf right now.

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    Oh but it does matter where the juice comes from - just saying.

    And the Volt?

    It's the only electric car that makes any sense.

    Simply untrue. Even the Leaf/FocusEV/SparkEVmakes sense for certain people.

    I posted this article on Friday from the Acela train to DC. The guy in the booth next to me and I were talking about electric cars. He's on a wait list for a Leaf. He lives in D.C. and takes the metro for most things. If he goes long distance it is normally by train or by car. He only needs a car for the occational trips out to the suburbs. His wife has a crossover for hauling the kids around. He is trading in a Jetta for the Leaf and it seems to make a lot of sense for his needs. No need for the Volt because he doesn't need the range in his second car.

    Even my Albert could make the Leaf work as his primary car if he wasn't so insistent that he needs AWD. We would still need something for distance runs, but for his run to work, he would have 85 miles of range left over at the end of the day.

    Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone.

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    Drew, your above post shows that an electric car is still only practical as a second car for short trips. Who has money for two cars? I want something that can operate in any condition I need it for...

    As far as the LaCrosse goes, I am simply relaying what Ward's said in their article.

    Edited by ocnblu

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    Oh but it does matter where the juice comes from - just saying.

    And the Volt?

    It's the only electric car that makes any sense.

    Simply untrue. Even the Leaf/FocusEV/SparkEVmakes sense for certain people.

    I posted this article on Friday from the Acela train to DC. The guy in the booth next to me and I were talking about electric cars. He's on a wait list for a Leaf. He lives in D.C. and takes the metro for most things. If he goes long distance it is normally by train or by car. He only needs a car for the occational trips out to the suburbs. His wife has a crossover for hauling the kids around. He is trading in a Jetta for the Leaf and it seems to make a lot of sense for his needs. No need for the Volt because he doesn't need the range in his second car.

    Even my Albert could make the Leaf work as his primary car if he wasn't so insistent that he needs AWD. We would still need something for distance runs, but for his run to work, he would have 85 miles of range left over at the end of the day.

    Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean it doesn't work for everyone.

    Just because it "works" for some people in their usual routine, doesn't mean it makes sense when that routine changes, or that it makes sense as an engineering direction. Only the Volt covers the bases and can claim to really be a fully-capable car.

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    Situations change all the time. The cts fit my daily routine until it didn't. Suddenly I needed a truck so I bought the Avalanche. Then my financial situation changed and I had to sell the avalanche and end the CTS lease and drive a $750 Buick Wagon that I borrowed. Then I went with no car for a while and just used Alberts CRV and the bus.

    You don't buy a car today based on what you think you might need in 5 years. Lots of families are 2 vehicle families, thus the leaf or focusEV or SparkEV do make sense.

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    Point is, if one must have a bit of humming in their vehicle, a Volt is the only car of its kind that would not have to be sold if one moved to the country by choice or circumstance.

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    Those aren't the sort of changes I was talking about. How about a sudden illness that requires just a few more miles of range to visit your spouse in the hospital?

    How will you feel about that Spark EV, or that Leaf then?

    A thousand scenarios like that can , and will, occur.

    All current electric cars (except the Volt) are toys to one degree or another. As all-around cars they do not yet measure-up.

    That's the simple truth.

    Edited by Camino LS6

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    If you're more than 100 miles round trip from a hospital, you're probably not buying a leaf in the first place.

    You can come up with all of the strawmen you want, I'll still be here to set them on fire.

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    C'mon Drew, you know better than that. You know that the owners of these cars will find themselves in circumstances where their full-electric car lets them down due to range. It will happen.

    You also know that my point remains valid that these cars do not yet measure-up.

    Wanting these cars to be the solution does not make it so.

    Edited by Camino LS6

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    100 miles round trip? Is that winter, spring, summer, or fall? Uphill in either direction? Highway, suburban, or urban? Jeez, so many variables to contend with. Range anxiety is real and justified when you are out there on your own.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    100 miles round trip? Is that winter, spring, summer, or fall? Uphill in either direction? Highway, suburban, or urban? Jeez, so many variables to contend with. Range anxiety is real and justified when you are out there on your own.

    My normal daily commute round trip is maybe 25 miles, but I like the predictability of approx 350 mile range and an abundant # of gas stations around..

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    From the last bit of my post from last night:

    These battery-powered electric cars would be sold as city runabouts, marketed mainly to folks who live in big urban areas and their very closely-knit suburbs. People that have no idea what a country road really looks like or what a long trip or commute really feels like. With a maximum range of 100 miles, these would be cars built for people who drive to work 15 to 30 miles in one direction and only leave the house otherwise to run 10 to 20 miles to a supermarket or shopping mall.

    In order for these cars to secure their place in the auto world of the future, automakers should instead focus on making them much cheaper to buy than what you can today and not bothering so much with chasing the range rabbit down its big, black hole.

    That's the key to getting more electric, battery-only cars out there.

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    "I say Perseus old boy, do you have you heard about that new horseless carriage?"

    "Why yes Batholomew , I hear it runs on some unheard of principle called internal combustion. They said it will replace the horse as mainstream transportation."

    "Internal combustion you say? In what manner does it operate?"

    "Well good sir, it is said that a machine used to convert energy into useful mechanical motion. This "internal combustion engine" is an engine in which the combustion of a petroleum-based fuel known as gasoline occurs with oxygen. the expansion of the high-temperature and high -pressure gases produced by combustion apply direct force to some component of the engine. This force is applied typically to what are being called pistons. This force moves the component over a distance, transforming chemical energy into useful mechanical energy."

    "And this shall replace the horse as humankind's preferred mode of transportation?"

    "Why yes, so it is being touted."

    "Poppycock. What a preposterous idea!"

    Hmm...yes, quite. Let us engage in laughter.

    "Splendid idea old boy."

    post-1757-0-42359400-1330303933.jpg

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    And a miata is an unsuitable primary vehicle on a farm, and a GMC Sierra Denali is an unsuitable primary vehicle for the average NYC dweller. And a SMART is an unsuitable primary vehicle for Octomom, and a Suburban is an unsuitable vehicle for a middle aged female office worker to commute 50 miles each way in.....

    And yet, those vehicles are still built and sold.

    For some people, the leaf is a suitable vehicle. You complain, loudly, when there is the threat of someone taking a V8 out of production. You feel that such the removal of choice is a disease to be stomped out.

    Physician, heal thyself!

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    And a miata is an unsuitable primary vehicle on a farm, and a GMC Sierra Denali is an unsuitable primary vehicle for the average NYC dweller. And a SMART is an unsuitable primary vehicle for Octomom, and a Suburban is an unsuitable vehicle for a middle aged female office worker to commute 50 miles each way in.....

    And yet, those vehicles are still built and sold.

    For some people, the leaf is a suitable vehicle. You complain, loudly, when there is the threat of someone taking a V8 out of production. You feel that such the removal of choice is a disease to be stomped out.

    Physician, heal thyself!

    You misunderstand.

    I am not against anyone choosing to buy and drive one of the current crop of EVs - far from it. I am also not against the automakers developing the technology. I am merely pointing out the shortcomings of the cars (which are many). I am against putting all of our eggs in the electric basket and expecting any measurable results. It is a foolish way to go about things, and hasn't much of a chance of ever solving our energy problems.

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    Who, besides Tesla, has put all of their eggs in an electric basket? Not one single manufacturer has. The Spark EV will arrive about 18 months after the Cruze diesel. Ford is talking about 3 cylinder turbos to compliment the Focus EV in the lineup. The transit connect comes in standard, electric, and natural gas. The Sonic and Cruze are both getting upgraded 1.4t power plants.

    If there is a misunderstanding here, it's how you came up with this idea we are going all electric anytime soon.

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    Who, besides Tesla, has put all of their eggs in an electric basket? Not one single manufacturer has. The Spark EV will arrive about 18 months after the Cruze diesel. Ford is talking about 3 cylinder turbos to compliment the Focus EV in the lineup. The transit connect comes in standard, electric, and natural gas. The Sonic and Cruze are both getting upgraded 1.4t power plants.

    If there is a misunderstanding here, it's how you came up with this idea we are going all electric anytime soon.

    There are several misunderstandings here, as well as a number of assumptions.

    I'm not referring to a manufacturer when I say that we are putting all of our eggs in the electric basket. I'm talking about the perception among many that everything will be just fine once we move to all electric cars. There is a strong emphasis on this one road as our "magic bullet" moving into the future.

    It isn't.

    And it probably can't be.

    And I believe that it should not be.

    I also believe that micro-engines in micro-cars is not the answer.

    As I believe that tactics like CAFE are not the answer.

    Electric cars are a distraction when we should be taking steps that make a real difference in the here and now as well as the future.

    Some people fear change.

    I don't fear change, I fear mistakes.

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    You don't learn unless you make mistakes. Suppose you are right and EVs can't be developed beyond their current level. What harm is done? A few city dwellers drive their leafs around and eventually give them up once all the charging stations are removed.

    What I described above is a multi-prong approach. Diesels, 3 cylinder turbos, eAssist... It is getting to be far more diverse out there in engine technology than it has been in 7 decades. The only thing we're missing at this point (to my sadness) is steam vehicles.

    Eventually one will become (or remain) the dominant technology. Mistakes might be made, but we will learn from them and move on.

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    You don't learn unless you make mistakes. Suppose you are right and EVs can't be developed beyond their current level. What harm is done? A few city dwellers drive their leafs around and eventually give them up once all the charging stations are removed.

    What I described above is a multi-prong approach. Diesels, 3 cylinder turbos, eAssist... It is getting to be far more diverse out there in engine technology than it has been in 7 decades. The only thing we're missing at this point (to my sadness) is steam vehicles.

    Eventually one will become (or remain) the dominant technology. Mistakes might be made, but we will learn from them and move on.

    Good points all.

    However (and this is what vexes me), we are not addressing the problem head-on. What we need are substitutes (plural) for oil. Not only are we not taking that search seriously enough, but we are ignoring some excellent interim substitutes that could be implemented today, with current technology. Further, we are allowing artificial barriers to entrepreneurial solutions that should be springing-up all around us. Free the innovators that know how to use what's available now to make things better now.

    I am old enough to remember the gas lines of '73, and our progress since then has been piss-poor. So, my patience with pie-in-the-sky diddling with electric cars and waiting on fuel cells has grown a bit short.

    I want to see real steps taken, and taken now.

    Brazil has done it with ethanol.

    Australia is doing it with CNG.

    We have many resources and I want to see them all put to work.

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    Or to put it another way, provide me with an alternative fuel that I can use today and I'll immediately convert my Tahoe to run on it.

    That means an ethanol pump nearby, or better yet, a CNG pump.

    I'd love to stop burning foreign oil products today.

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    I'm not willing to say that we shouldn't pursue EVs just because Camino says so. I think at this point we keep all options open and be willing to admit that it might take a combination of these technologies to make it work. I see no reason that we need to pick just one.

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    I'm not willing to say that we shouldn't pursue EVs just because Camino says so. I think at this point we keep all options open and be willing to admit that it might take a combination of these technologies to make it work. I see no reason that we need to pick just one.

    I don't say so, and never have.

    I think it will take a combination of technologies to get the job done.

    I have always said so - several times in this thread, in fact.

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    Don't care... which is the whole point about electrics! You don't care where the electricity is coming from as long as you're getting it. You like to $h! all over the Volt and Leaf and even the eAssist Lacrosse for using electricity. So the source of the electric doesn't seem to matter to you. As the technology continues to improve, battery range will get you further. In the meantime there are vehicles like the Volt to mitigate that problem. Electric is the power of the fastest land based vehicles on earth that move through the force of their wheels.

    So no, I don't care where the power is from. The point is I'm running at 125mph under electric propulsion which is faster than ANY of the vehicles you have owned can go. IF by chance you did own one that could reach 125mph... in an hour I'll be in the 150mph zone.

    Siding with this right here. I think people fail to see just how fast this is growing and changing. Wanna know what I know?

    Just drive thru Dearborn. Ford has embraced it with open arms. You'll be surprised....

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    "I say Perseus old boy, do you have you heard about that new horseless carriage?"

    "Why yes Batholomew , I hear it runs on some unheard of principle called internal combustion. They said it will replace the horse as mainstream transportation."

    "Internal combustion you say? In what manner does it operate?"

    "Well good sir, it is said that a machine used to convert energy into useful mechanical motion. This "internal combustion engine" is an engine in which the combustion of a petroleum-based fuel known as gasoline occurs with oxygen. the expansion of the high-temperature and high -pressure gases produced by combustion apply direct force to some component of the engine. This force is applied typically to what are being called pistons. This force moves the component over a distance, transforming chemical energy into useful mechanical energy."

    "And this shall replace the horse as humankind's preferred mode of transportation?"

    "Why yes, so it is being touted."

    "Poppycock. What a preposterous idea!"

    Hmm...yes, quite. Let us engage in laughter.

    "Splendid idea old boy."

    post-1757-0-42359400-1330303933.jpg

    Damn DF, thanks for making sneeze Pepsi....

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    It doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what the customers want to buy. And hybrids and electrics have not taken off around the world the way some ppl are fantasizing.

    I think we have one member here who owns a Volt. Any others? Who has a hybrid or full electric? Come on, talk is cheap, why isn't anyone putting their money down?

    In Europe where fuel has been historically high, diesel is the frugal-minded person's power of choice. Not electric or hybrid.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

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    Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

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    It won't change things, because it can't change things.

    Why not? If we had that thought process, things would never change.

    EVs are not going to take over the world-they are just going to be a bigger part of the market, that's all. Gas will always be an option, the question is more one price...

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    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

    That's just the most immediate problem.

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    Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

    I would assume pretty much the same....

    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

    That's just the most immediate problem.

    Can I safely assume the gas station idea here?

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    It won't change things, because it can't change things.

    Why not? If we had that thought process, things would never change.

    EVs are not going to take over the world-they are just going to be a bigger part of the market, that's all. Gas will always be an option, the question is more one price...

    They can't change things because of several things.

    1) All electric cars combined make no measurable difference in our oil consumption, and they can't because even if sales could rise to that of a successful midsize they only enter service one model year at a time. The shift won't be significant for many, many years.

    2) If production of EVs ever rises to a level that makes a real impact - then our grid can't handle it.

    3) There is very little indication that the tech will work in applications beyond smallish cars, we don't function without trucks.

    4) Range is inadequate

    5) Battery supply is inadequate (as is the supply of the required materials)

    * The exception is the Volt (or rather its technology and approach - which should be scaleable)

    Prius sells quite well..they are ubiquitous. Pure electrics are still in their early adopter phase, will be interesting to see how they do over time.

    I would assume pretty much the same....

    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    One small example... LaCrosse sales are down, aren't they? Why didn't sales go up if people really wanted e-Assist? LaCrosse is a beautiful car that is not long in the market.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    They lack one problem at the moment-price. Watch the price drop, and watch them sell. If I get get a Volt for the price of a well loaded Cruze-I'd be all over it. The Tech simply needs to get out there....

    That's just the most immediate problem.

    Can I safely assume the gas station idea here?

    Sort of.

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    The short version is that by the time that EVs could make a real difference, it will be far too late to matter.

    By themselves that is.

    I do see them as a near- ideal option in a place like LA....

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    But imagine this, if you will.

    The Volt system sort of in reverse.

    On a full-sized pickup E-assist style.

    The gains could be quite impressive.

    And using 4wd could be really something.

    Now extrapolate that to a large percentage of full-size pickup production in this country.

    That sort of application is where I see electric doing the most good.

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    Whoever marked me down... SHOW ME THE SALES FIGURES. Where are all these electrified cars being sold? To whom? This is not something I'm making up, this lack of customers. Anyone can find out for themselves if they read.

    Volt and Leaf sales are pathetic... I fail to see where more of this kind of car on the market will change things.

    (Deep Sigh)

    Pathetic.. really?!

    Let's take a look at both shall we..

    Nissan Leaf sales:

    10,369 (total sales since December 2010 launch)

    676 Leafs sold in January 2012

    With the Leaf, it currently is sold in 29 states with nationwide sales beginning later this year. That's up from the five states when it was launched in December 2010 ( California, Washington, Oregon, Arizona, and Tennessee).

    But also there was this little thing in march that happened in Japan; the earthquake and tsunami. That knocked out production of the Nissan Leaf for a few months and caused many headaches for the company and people who reserved them. Nissan missed their goal of building of 50,000 Leafs for the world market. But they seemed happy with selling 20,000 worldwide.

    Chevroler Volt sales:

    8,600 (Vehicles sold since launch)

    603 Volts sold in January

    Ah the Volt, where do we begin. Like the Leaf, it was sold in limited markets, before being rolled out in 2011.

    But the Volt suffered many problems. The plant was shut down for a few weeks in the summer to make room for the Malibu & new Impala. And then, there was the was the whole Battery fire incident. Plus, the plant has been idling up until last week or so

    And I'll throw in the high price tag as being a factor and GM's outrageous sales projections (10,000 Volts in 2011, 45,000 in 2012)

    Now to some, those numbers seem poor and its time to call them a failure. To me, those numbers seem right. They're selling them to the people who can a. afford them and b. know they can live with one.

    *********************************************************

    Look, I like electrics. But I also know they're not the key to solving are oil problem. Automakers are trying to figure out what works; gas engines with new tech, diesels, hybrids, Natural Gas, EVs, etc.

    Electrics are just taking the spotlight for the moment. Like hydrogen vehicles, or Hybrids; it's the hot thing.

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    They can't change things because of several things.

    1) All electric cars combined make no measurable difference in our oil consumption, and they can't because even if sales could rise to that of a successful midsize they only enter service one model year at a time. The shift won't be significant for many, many years.

    2) If production of EVs ever rises to a level that makes a real impact - then our grid can't handle it.

    3) There is very little indication that the tech will work in applications beyond smallish cars, we don't function without trucks.

    4) Range is inadequate

    5) Battery supply is inadequate (as is the supply of the required materials)

    +1000

    Post of the month for putting it together correctly. Of course, many here will poo-poo it because somehow science will somehow save us... next year... or the year after that. But several of these problems, cannot be fixed... Unless a giant asteroid of copper crashes into Earth, we do not have the copper to upgrade our grid, even if we wanted to. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_copper And aluminum is also in short supply, as well.

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    It doesn't matter. The thing that matters is what the customers want to buy. And hybrids and electrics have not taken off around the world the way some ppl are fantasizing.

    I think we have one member here who owns a Volt. Any others? Who has a hybrid or full electric? Come on, talk is cheap, why isn't anyone putting their money down?

    In Europe where fuel has been historically high, diesel is the frugal-minded person's power of choice. Not electric or hybrid.

    Toyota went in there with the Pruis and was charging 5-series pricing for that crap trap. It is unsurprising to me at all that the Germans took no notice. The only redeeming quality of the Pruis is its powertrain, the rest of the car is crap, handles like crap, drives like crap.

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    Wow I go to work and things go crazy here with the fear of fat people in over priced electric cars.

    The problem is here that too many think or expect electric cars to come out of the box cheap and able to do anything a gas car can do. The fact is little was invested into much of this since the Detroit or Baker Electic.

    I can name cars that were not cheaper than the transportation they replaced, They were not more durible than the transportation they replaced. They had an even more limited range than the transprotation they replaced. They often left their owners standed along the road out of energy or broke down.Many claimed they would never replace the horse but a few people bought them and more people invested in them to the point that they finally became reliable and cheaper.

    The Electric car is not a over night deal and it will take time for cheaper prices and longer ranges. This whole thing needs more time and investment and it requires a market to do this. The few buyers that are willing to bite the limited range and high cost bullet will provide the market that will lead to improvments. This is not anything different than the first gas powered auto buyers. If they had not paid the high prices and delt with the issues of the first cars we still would be on horses.

    Things will not change over night and electric cars will not be a dominate car for a good while. This whole deal is in flux and will evolve as time goes on. We will see more E assist like hybrids and more of the electric technology adapted to the gas powered cars.

    As for the Volt it is the only real electric for the average buyer. Yes there are a few who can live with a all electric but they are few. The only hold up on the Volt for the most part is price and it will come done in time. As they improve the Volt the money invested will also help imporve electric motors and batteries for full electrics.

    As with any new technology it will get better and cheaper as time goes on. Much is owed to those who are willing to pay more for th new technology in the early years to create these markets.

    It was the first computer buyers who help bring in a change on how we live today with cheaper and better computers. Same for Cell phones and many other products we have today.

    So it is important to understand development and the the time it will take for this market to evolve. We must keep this in perspective to understand where this is all going. The short and long of this is electrics will take more time to improve and get cheaper and gas engines will be around for most of our lives and not fully fade away.

    As for the other fuels there are issues with each and most have to do with refueling. Few of us are willing to take the time or the effort it takes to fill with Hydrogen or even propane. The fact everyone has an electric outlet in their home is why electric has a open door to all people.

    I even put a 220 Outlet near where I part in my new garage that I just built as some day it may need to be used to plug a car in. Till then the welder or plasma cutter will work well with it.

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    Dare I say I agree with both of you (Camino &hyper) Some good valid points there.

    All I can say at this point is that I hope the EV improvements come quickly......

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    The fact is little was invested into much of this since the Detroit or Baker Electic.

    Slurp! Mmmm... Flavor-Aid. I can tell them little was invested since the Baker Electric... even when OcnBlu has posted in another thread the Electrovair II. Sorry, you are full of it, Hyper. There has been billions invested since the Baker Electric... so you think companies like Baker Electric and Detroit Electric didn't invest large sums to try to extend their businesses? GM and Studebaker also had large slices of the electric pie, which I'm sure they would have liked to preserve. Do you think General Electric spent nothing to get all these Deisel Electric trains? GM built the Electrovair I, Electrovair II, an Electric Greenbriar, and a Electrovan, the Urban Electric Car, the 512 series, Electrovette, Sunraycer, EV-1, S-10 Electric. Ford made the Ranger EV. AMC worked on a Lithium-based battery in 1967 and had a NiCd electric '69 Rambler wagon, the Amitron, the Electron. The '50 Henney Kilowatt. The 1980 ComutaCar. Then there are GEM and Zap, who have been been building cars for about 20 years each. Then there is all the forklift and golf cart companies. All the laptop and cellular phone battery research which scales up... Oh... and the Lunar Rover. You're right... little money or effort was put into electric cars since the Baker... yeah.

    The Electric car is not a over night deal and it will take time for cheaper prices and longer ranges. This whole thing needs more time and investment and it requires a market to do this. The few buyers that are willing to bite the limited range and high cost bullet will provide the market that will lead to improvments. This is not anything different than the first gas powered auto buyers. If they had not paid the high prices and delt with the issues of the first cars we still would be on horses.

    Horses are stubborn and require space and maintenance. Autos surpassed the horse for economics, in reliability and in ease of maintenance in less than 10 years. Electrics have been around for almost 120 years of drivetrain and battery advancements.

    As they improve the Volt the money invested will also help imporve electric motors and batteries for full electrics.

    ----

    As with any new technology it will get better and cheaper as time goes on. Much is owed to those who are willing to pay more for th new technology in the early years to create these markets.

    Sure... to the tune of 5-15% improvement per decade, its going to be a slow trip.

    Using this logic, regular gasoline powered cars should get cheaper. They don't.

    As for the other fuels there are issues with each and most have to do with refueling. Few of us are willing to take the time or the effort it takes to fill with Hydrogen or even propane. The fact everyone has an electric outlet in their home is why electric has a open door to all people.

    Effort? It takes about twice as long to fuel with CNG as gasoline. BFD.

    Hydrogen does have some issues filling, storage and combustion... but with CNG being created at every landfill and working as a retrofit on every gasoline engine ever made, I don't see why anyone invests in hydrogen.

    I even put a 220 Outlet near where I part in my new garage that I just built as some day it may need to be used to plug a car in. Till then the welder or plasma cutter will work well with it.

    Great. Let me know when you put a 1000 Amp outlet in so that you can refill at something closer to the rate of the CNG.

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    You are going to argue a point on Horses here and try to make a point with the Electrovair II LOL! You have got to better than that.

    I stand by my post..

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    This is not a horses vs. cars situation.

    And it will never be.

    Until the fuel cell makes it so.

    Full electrics cannot become factor until then.

    Panic brings electrics into fashion from time to time, but they have no staying power without the fuel cell.

    Batteries are never going to cut it.

    Electrics are a dead-end until they can generate their own power on-board.

    Think of the Volt as proto-fuel cell, and you will get where I stand on this.

    We need simpler, more immediate, solutions.

    Edited by Camino LS6

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    Battery development is not at a standstill. Electric motor development is not at a stand still.

    You guys want range? The 640hp AWD electric mini-cooper has a range of 200 - 250 miles. Or... roughly Pittsburgh to D.C.

    If they made it just FWD *cough* sorry, if they made it just RWD and 320hp, and only increased the range to 350miles, that would still be a longer cruising range than I have on my Toronado or CR-V or my old CTS.

    I realize it is just a concept, but it is also proof of concept.

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    Another electric toy doesn't address the larger problems.

    These cars have to charge themselves before they will matter.

    Meanwhile, we need to move on to things we can do right now.

    If we could convert say 15% of our existing fleet to CNG, and another 15% to ethanol, we could buy decades of time for fuel cell development and not get caught with our pants down again.

    And ethanol is a renewable resource which could provide us with a domestic supply of fuel all on its own for an indefinite time.

    I prefer gaseous fuels, but both ethanol and CNG could get us off of oil right now if we decide to make it happen.

    I'd be far more charitable toward R&D on electrics and fuel cells if we were using what we have at hand to get the problem under control today.

    It's a sin that GM has built over 5 million FFVs and we have no fuel to use in them. That's where our immediate focus should be.

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