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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Next Dodge Challenger and Charger To Solider On With Current Platform

      Giorgio-who?

    Let us wind the clock back to November 2016. We wrote a piece in the rumorpile  saying that the next-generation Dodge Challenger and Charger had been pushed back to 2021. It was unclear as to why the models were being pushed back, but there was the interesting tidbit that they would be using the new Giorgio platform - what underpins the Alfa Romeo Giulia and Stelvio. But there may be a chance that the next-generation models could use a heavily upgraded version of the current platform which can trace its roots back to the 1990s from Mercedes-Benz.

    "We may not necessarily have to go as far as the Giorgio architecture for Dodge as long as we are willing to commit to a significant upgrade to the current architecture to make it competitive. That's something that's already started," said FCA Sergio Marchionne during last Friday's five-year presentation.

    "Certainly by the time we finish with that architecture, you will not recognize its origins. We may maintain its bare-bones structure."

    Obvious question: Why not Giorgio?

    "The problem with Giorgio is from size and capability standpoint it reflects much more of a European performance requirement than it does the American heritage of Dodge," said Marchionne.

    We read this one of two ways. Either the current incarnation of Giorgio cannot fit a HEMI V8 or is unable to handle the power output of high-performance versions like the Hellcat.

    As for the Chrysler 300, Marchionne hinted that it might not make a return.

    Source: Motor Authority




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    15 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Georgio is too small and light for the Challenger and Charger.  

    Exactly, Italians always build small lite platforms more focused on Fashion trend style than on performance. No way a Hellcat or Demon engine could work with the Georgio platform.

    For Dodge to work, they would have to make a new Hemi 4 banger and Hemi V6 with turbo's and even then be limited to how much power to produce.

    Again, further proof of incompetence by Sergio as he stole the profits from Chrysler to bring back from the grave stupid Alfa crap and prop up the garbage Fiat.

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    Georgio is fine for a compact sports sedan, but the Charger and Challenger need to be at least 4000lbs and have V8 versions.  Different market niches.

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    6 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Georgio is fine for a compact sports sedan, but the Charger and Challenger need to be at least 4000lbs and have V8 versions.  Different market niches.

    True a European focused platform. Still they should have rolled back in the profits into Dodge & Chrysler and built up those portfolios before wasting the billions on resurrecting Alfa which contributes NOTHING to FCA.

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    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current platform aside from needing better material fit and finish. 

    They are full size and should remain so... not squished down to Euro standards. 

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    3 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    Georgio is fine for a compact sports sedan, but the Charger and Challenger need to be at least 4000lbs and have V8 versions.  Different market niches.

    Why does it have to weigh over 4,000 lbs?  Just because it has a V8 doesn't mean it has to be extra heavy, anytime you can cut weight it is a good thing.

    As far as Sergio hinting the 300 may not return, I would give a 5% chance at a next generation Chrysler 300 happening and a 50/50 chance of a new Dodge Charger.

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    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    There is absolutely nothing wrong with the current platform aside from needing better material fit and finish. 

    They are full size and should remain so... not squished down to Euro standards. 

    In their current form though the 300/Charger only sell in the American market, they are useless as a global product.   That might not be a problem if the full size sedan market in America wasn't tanking fast.  The 30 is down 11% YTD and the Charger is down 5% YTD.  Which isn't terrible, but how many of those sales are rental cars.   The worst selling Jeep outsells every Dodge except the Caravan, and I imagine a solid 50-60% of those Caravan sales are fleet sales

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    43 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Why does it have to weigh over 4,000 lbs?  Just because it has a V8 doesn't mean it has to be extra heavy, anytime you can cut weight it is a good thing. 

    The heft is part of their appeal, IMO.    Like with Mercedes, the V8 E-Class models aren't lightweights...

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar

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    Weight is just like platforms; consumers have no idea if a car weighs 3700 lbs or 4200.
    With all the plastics, aluminum & thinned materials in modern cars, you'd think a -say- '18 Challenger should weight 3200 lbs.

    Weight has gotten out of control, but at least there have been some very recent efforts slimming vehicles down.

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    4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Weight is just like platforms; consumers have no idea if a car weighs 3700 lbs or 4200.
    With all the plastics, aluminum & thinned materials in modern cars, you'd think a -say- '18 Challenger should weight 3200 lbs.

    Weight has gotten out of control, but at least there have been some very recent efforts slimming vehicles down.

    In an era of 5000-6000 lb SUVs and trucks, 4000 lb cars seem reasonable to me..

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    1 hour ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    The heft is part of their appeal, IMO.    Like with Mercedes, the V8 E-Class models aren't lightweights...

    They aren't, but if Mercedes could make the E63 4,000 lbs vs 4,500 lbs that would be a big win.  The cost would be ridiculous, but less weight is good.   And yes, with 5,000 lb SUVs, a 4,000 lb car seems light.  And suspensions and brake systems are better and better and can compensate for it, but weight hurts performance and fuel economy, 

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    Why do they have to be heavy? Because they are full size consumer grade cars, not high end stuff like multi-material Cadillac CT6s

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    2 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    In an era of 5000-6000 lb SUVs and trucks, 4000 lb cars seem reasonable to me..

    Only if those weights are reasonable. Are they? (I know they are commonplace but that wasn't my question)

    Edited by balthazar

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    Ask yourself what happened in the industry. Over time, cars in general shrunk, had 1000-some lbs of cast iron & steel replaced with aluminum and plastic, got body panels switched over to aluminum or even carbon fiber, all rims are AL, what sheetmetal left is thinner & thinner, glass is thinner, even carpeting is thinner. All these advances... and cars are heavier than ever in the grand scheme of things.

    1980 Turbo Trans Am, iron block/heads V8, all-steel body (other than front fascia/rear bumper), 198-in overall length, curb weight: 3673. How does a smaller, 35-year newer Camaro range from 3700-4350 lbs with all its aluminum & plastic (& carbon fiber?) and still be called 'progress'?

    I mean, I don't expect the opposite; that a '15 Camaro should weigh 3000 or less, but at least offset all the wiring/sensors/ etc with the construction lightening... but no. Just imagine a '15 Camaro with an all-steel body & an Iron block/heads; it'd weigh 5000+.

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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    In their current form though the 300/Charger only sell in the American market, they are useless as a global product.   That might not be a problem if the full size sedan market in America wasn't tanking fast.  The 30 is down 11% YTD and the Charger is down 5% YTD.  Which isn't terrible, but how many of those sales are rental cars.   The worst selling Jeep outsells every Dodge except the Caravan, and I imagine a solid 50-60% of those Caravan sales are fleet sales

    This is untrue. The 300 is used for police duty in Australia now that both Ford and GM have ceded that market. 

    The 300 was also sold as a Lancia in Europe, and with a properly stocked Chrysler brand, the entire brand should have been branded as Lancia or just kept as Chrysler and sold in Europe.  The Europeans had an unusual love for the Town and Country and the GM vans.  The new Pacifica would have done well there. 

    The 300 with a 2.0T should absolutely be sold in China. The Chinese just lowered their import tariff from 25% to 15% effective July 1. They could still be built in Brampton and shipped over.  Stick the Pacifica hybrid on the same boat and price it like the Enclave. 

    The failure of Chrysler and Dodge rests entirely on Sergio's nationalism and inability to effectively use the brands he got in the acquisition. He is an absolute failure of a CEO. 

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    They aren't, but if Mercedes could make the E63 4,000 lbs vs 4,500 lbs that would be a big win.  The cost would be ridiculous, but less weight is good.   And yes, with 5,000 lb SUVs, a 4,000 lb car seems light.  And suspensions and brake systems are better and better and can compensate for it, but weight hurts performance and fuel economy, 

    A 6-cylinder 5-series is 4,019

    A 6-cylinder E-class is 4,043

    A 6-cylinder A6 is 4,135

    Tell me more about how the 300C Limited V8 being 4,029 is vastly uncompetitive. 

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    23 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Ask yourself what happened in the industry. Over time, cars in general shrunk, had 1000-some lbs of cast iron & steel replaced with aluminum and plastic, got body panels switched over to aluminum or even carbon fiber, all rims are AL, what sheetmetal left is thinner & thinner, glass is thinner, even carpeting is thinner. All these advances... and cars are heavier than ever in the grand scheme of things.

    1980 Turbo Trans Am, iron block/heads V8, all-steel body (other than front fascia/rear bumper), 198-in overall length, curb weight: 3673. How does a smaller, 35-year newer Camaro range from 3700-4350 lbs with all its aluminum & plastic (& carbon fiber?) and still be called 'progress'?

    I mean, I don't expect the opposite; that a '15 Camaro should weigh 3000 or less, but at least offset all the wiring/sensors/ etc with the construction lightening... but no. Just imagine a '15 Camaro with an all-steel body & an Iron block/heads; it'd weigh 5000+.

    There are models of 3-series that weigh more than my big old body-on-frame boat of an '81 Toronado with a 307 cubic inch iron block under the aircraft carrier sized steel hood. 

    A 4-cylinder 330xi weighs more than a V6 '81 Toronado

    A 6-cylinder 340xi weighs more than a V8 '81 Toronado.

    And for all the tech and weight savings they put into the M5 carbon fiber and all.... it still weighs 500lbs more than my iron beast. 

    Now, I'm not comparing performance at all of course.... but these are generally considered among the lightest cars in their class and they they all tip the scales more than some "old tech" Oldsmobile. 

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    For an extreme size vs weight example, I wonder how much the lightest 60s full size 4dr sedan weighed..like a 6cyl Biscayne. Under 4000lbs maybe? 

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    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    Only if those weights are reasonable. Are they? 

    I don't know about reasonable, it's  what they are.  Seems like over the last 40 years cars have been downsized (though small cars have gotten larger) while trucks have gotten larger and heavier.   

    Meeting crash standards and adding content has increased weight, even though a lot a lightening has gone on.  There are no stripped down cars for the most part today, and stripped trucks only exist for fleets. 

    It seems the average 4cyl compact is better equipped than a typical Detroit luxury car 40 years ago, and more powerful.  

    So cars today on average are more efficient, more powerful, safer, and better equipped than 40 years ago.  And heavier...interesting times we live in. 

    Edited by Cubical-aka-Moltar
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    52 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    This is untrue. The 300 is used for police duty in Australia now that both Ford and GM have ceded that market. 

    The 300 was also sold as a Lancia in Europe, and with a properly stocked Chrysler brand, the entire brand should have been branded as Lancia or just kept as Chrysler and sold in Europe.  The Europeans had an unusual love for the Town and Country and the GM vans.  The new Pacifica would have done well there. 

    The 300 with a 2.0T should absolutely be sold in China. The Chinese just lowered their import tariff from 25% to 15% effective July 1. They could still be built in Brampton and shipped over.  Stick the Pacifica hybrid on the same boat and price it like the Enclave. 

    The failure of Chrysler and Dodge rests entirely on Sergio's nationalism and inability to effectively use the brands he got in the acquisition. He is an absolute failure of a CEO. 

    The Australian police car market has to be in the 100s of cars per year, and the 300 was sold in Europe.  It isn't now.

    Dodge/Chrysler failed in the 80s, failed under Daimler, failed under Cerberus, and so why would Sergio be expected to make them prosperous?  I don't think Sergio is a great CEO but his job as CEO is to satisfy the shareholders, not to save Chrysler.  As long as he makes the Agnelli family money he is doing his job, and the way to make them the most money is probably to split up FCA into pieces to sell off. 

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    52 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    A 6-cylinder 5-series is 4,019

    A 6-cylinder E-class is 4,043

    A 6-cylinder A6 is 4,135

    Tell me more about how the 300C Limited V8 being 4,029 is vastly uncompetitive. 

    I never said it was overweight, but Cubical said the 300 has to be at least 4,000 lbs as if weight was good, and if they put it on a lighter platform it would be bad.  That is like saying a CT6 must add weight to be more "American."   People want to praise the Cadillac chassis for cutting weight with aluminum and structural adhesive and mixed materials, then crap on the  Giorgio platform which is the same thing.

    And the next-gen Jeep Grand Cherokee will be built on the Giorgio platform, and I bet it is lighter, faster, more fuel efficient, better braking and better handling than what they have now.  The GLE and Grand Cherokee are obese because they still have too much of that  2006-2010 era chassis in them.  And all the Mopar fans will say how great it is, not that the platform is from an Alfa Romeo Guilia.  

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    37 minutes ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    I don't know about reasonable, it's  what they are.  Seems like over the last 40 years cars have been downsized (though small cars have gotten larger) while trucks have gotten larger and heavier.   

    Meeting crash standards and adding content has increased weight, even though a lot a lightening has gone on.  There are no stripped down cars for the most part today, and stripped trucks only exist for fleets. 

    It seems the average 4cyl compact is better equipped than a typical Detroit luxury car 40 years ago, and more powerful.  

    So cars today on average are more efficient, more powerful, safer, and better equipped than 40 years ago.  And heavier...interesting times we live in. 

    Agreed, cars from 50 years ago were death traps.  The amount of structural reinforcement in cars today in incredible.  Then you look at how much sound deadening material, speakers, power heated seats, Nav systems and computers, glass roofs, which requires more bracing, etc get added.  A 90s Cadillac had power, heated, leather seats, 8 speakers, and a sunroof and that made it a luxury car because the average Chevy had manual crank windows and a 4 speaker am/fm radio practically.   Now a Kia Forte or Focus has a heated steering wheel, self parking, radar cruise control, etc, they have equipment you got on year 2000 S-class now on compact cars, just with a plastic dash rather than wood and leather.  All that crap adds weight.

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    It's all good if it happens....

    But I'm still not convinced that it is going to.......

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    3 hours ago, Cubical-aka-Moltar said:

    For an extreme size vs weight example, I wonder how much the lightest 60s full size 4dr sedan weighed..like a 6cyl Biscayne. Under 4000lbs maybe? 

    The shipping weight on my '64 Catalina 4-dr sedan, with a cast iron 389 V8 & a full perimeter frame, was 3770. That car was 80-in wide and 213" overall, with less than 15 lbs of plastics. The 'lightest' were likely the early '60s MoPars; a '63 Plymouth Savoy (Unibody, OL length: 205") with a Slant Six came in at 2980. A '62 Biscayne 6 2-dr came in at 3405. All the lower priced '60s cars came in WELL under 4000.

    The commonly available numbers from then are 'shipping weights'. I can tell you my B-59 gains exactly 120 lbs going to curb weight (4274 / 4394), so I figure 100 for lighter/cheaper models.  So a early '60s Ply-Dodge is likely 3100 curb weight.

    For a nearly all plastic/aluminum Camaro to be 4300 is rather amazing.

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