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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    GM Can't Make A Business Case for A Small Performance Car

      At the moment, GM can't make a case for a pocket rocket

    It seems a month can't go by without another automaker announcing a new pocket rocket. Currently we have the Ford Fiesta and Focus ST; Honda Civic Si, Subaru WRX and WRX STI; Subaru BRZ, Scion FR-S, and Volkswagen GTI. So that leaves us and a number of enthusiasts wondering - where is GM's contender?

     

    General Motors' vice president of product development tells Automotive News that at the moment, there isn't a business case for one.

     

    "Capital is not a black hole. On those cars, the price point begins to approach the segment of the next car up. We would spend a lot of money and resources, and what are we really doing?" said Reuss.

     

    AutoPacific Inc. analyst Dave Sullivan agrees with Reuss' reason, stating that the added cost and complexity of fitting a bigger engine and manual transmission into either the Sonic or Cruze is prohibitively expensive. But Sullivan does point out that they can pull items and help from their European division. Case in point is the Opel/Vauxhall Astra OPC/VXR with a turbocharged 2.0L four with 276 horsepower.

     

    For the time being, Reuss says that the company is offering a wide selection of accessories to boost performance for not that much cash. Case in point is the $995 performance stage kit and exhaust package for the Sonic. But if you press Reuss, he says a production pocket rocket could be in the timeline.

     

    "The real question is: Is that a big priority? For now, no. Forever? I wouldn't say that."

     

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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    Focus ST is a fantastic car but at some point it crowds price points of other cars (like say for example base Camaro or an LT vs. a Focus ST).

     

    Also the key demographic for such cars has been broke (millenialz and younger set) for awhile now.  They car barely scrape the cash for a Sonic.  If they hit the jackpot, then they want to go right to the 3 series or Merc CLA.

     

    I do think the 3 door Astra OPC would be a fantastic addition to the Buick lineup here.

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    Seriously, it can't be that hard.    I know the 2.0T won't fit in the sonic, but the new 1.6T would be a nice mill in there.  Raise the boost a bit and gear it right and it will be a great little pocket rocket without needing to spend a lot of cash.

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    Agree with Drew, they can turn the existing Sonic into that Pocket Rocket to compete. No need for a new compact ride. AWD would be nice, but that might not work on the existing Sonic platform.

     

    This is a niche market anyway so no need to spend allot of cash. Offer an SS Sonic with the 1.6T and aftermarket GM Performance kits and call it a day.

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    Agree with Drew, they can turn the existing Sonic into that Pocket Rocket to compete. No need for a new compact ride. AWD would be nice, but that might not work on the existing Sonic platform.

     

    This is a niche market anyway so no need to spend allot of cash. Offer an SS Sonic with the 1.6T and aftermarket GM Performance kits and call it a day.

    I don't think it would be quite SS level, but it would be a good upgrade for the current RS.  200 hp, maybe boosted up t o 215hp and 206 lb-ft of torque at 1700rpm, maybe use an overboost option like the Cruze diesel to bump that up too.... That would be perfectly acceptable for a a 2800 lb. hatchback.

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

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    Focus ST is a fantastic car but at some point it crowds price points of other cars (like say for example base Camaro or an LT vs. a Focus ST).

     

    Also the key demographic for such cars has been broke (millenialz and younger set) for awhile now.  They car barely scrape the cash for a Sonic.  If they hit the jackpot, then they want to go right to the 3 series or Merc CLA.

     

    I do think the 3 door Astra OPC would be a fantastic addition to the Buick lineup here.

     

     

    Dare I say I agree with Reg here. The younger set for the most part are not buying these cars, it's the F & F crowd grown up from the last decade. I have yet to see a real youngin' around here driving in a Focus ST...and while they are great cars, what kid has 30k laying around?

     

    I would love to see GM make a faster Cruze, but I'd rather see the money invested elsewhere in the company right now...

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

     

     

    You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first.

     

    And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways..

     

    Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet....

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    I'm in agreement with a few here about the lack of need for a small purpose built "Code 130R" type car, but the Cruze should at the very least be offered with an optional 2.0L engine. The issue at hand really seems to stem from the fact that unlike VW, Subaru, or even Ford.. Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    That being said.. again.. a Sonic RS with an actual engine upgrade, say at least 190HP would be pretty sweet considering its handling capabilities. Cruze??? Jumpin off the Cobalt SS and going with the 2.0L Turbo say around 270HP would be choice. 

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    I'm in agreement with a few here about the lack of need for a small purpose built "Code 130R" type car, but the Cruze should at the very least be offered with an optional 2.0L engine. The issue at hand really seems to stem from the fact that unlike VW, Subaru, or even Ford.. Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    That being said.. again.. a Sonic RS with an actual engine upgrade, say at least 190HP would be pretty sweet considering its handling capabilities. Cruze??? Jumpin off the Cobalt SS and going with the 2.0L Turbo say around 270HP would be choice. 

     

    They already make a Cobalt SS you describe.  It's called the Verano Turbo and it's sold at Buick dealerships.  It even comes with a 6-speed manual. 

     

    If your only concern is performance, there is a case to be made for the Mustang v. Fiesta ST comparison, but in terms of content, the base Mustang will not stack up to a fairly loaded Fiesta ST.

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    I'm in agreement with a few here about the lack of need for a small purpose built "Code 130R" type car, but the Cruze should at the very least be offered with an optional 2.0L engine. The issue at hand really seems to stem from the fact that unlike VW, Subaru, or even Ford.. Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    That being said.. again.. a Sonic RS with an actual engine upgrade, say at least 190HP would be pretty sweet considering its handling capabilities. Cruze??? Jumpin off the Cobalt SS and going with the 2.0L Turbo say around 270HP would be choice. 

     

    They already make a Cobalt SS you describe.  It's called the Verano Turbo and it's sold at Buick dealerships.  It even comes with a 6-speed manual. 

     

     

     

    Absolutely.. I kno. But the Buick crowd isn't taking this car out to track or drift. The engine could just as easily be thrown in a Cruze.. and the suspension and braking be upgraded to a level that the Cobalt SS had. That car was pretty fun to drive. A friend of mine had an '09 that was factory tuned to 290HP and 315lb of twist. The thing was fun to say the least. That was in 2009. Imagine what we would be seeing now. As for Buick.. they need to go full-on Astra and get the hatch too.. along with all the upgrades the OPC has. I drove one of those when I was in Germany last year and was jealous of what they get to say the least

     

    Opel-Astra-OPC.jpg

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    I wonder if they make the chip upgrades for the Verano Turbo.....hmmm

     

     

    I dunno about factory warrantied, but they do in the aftermarket. .. well at least for the LTG in the Regal. I kno they are slightly different tho. 

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    I wonder if they make the chip upgrades for the Verano Turbo.....hmmm

     

     

    I dunno about factory warrantied, but they do in the aftermarket. .. well at least for the LTG in the Regal. I kno they are slightly different tho. 

     

     

     

    Probably a different topic, but any brand you recommend? I was considering one for the Encore to get at least a little bump in power.

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    I wonder if they make the chip upgrades for the Verano Turbo.....hmmm

     

     

    I dunno about factory warrantied, but they do in the aftermarket. .. well at least for the LTG in the Regal. I kno they are slightly different tho. 

     

     

     

    Probably a different topic, but any brand you recommend? I was considering one for the Encore to get at least a little bump in power.

     

     

     

    For those I'd look around. I'm pretty used to messing with V8s at this point myself, so the 2.0L I would have to ask a few people I kno who have Regals or ATS. The Encore tho.. Intune Diablo has a nice tune for the 1.4L Turbo

     

    678qbq.jpg

     

     

    Hell.. for the ATS 2.0L they supposedly are getting 50 more HP and 60 more lbs of twist from a tune  Intune .

     

    In my Stingray.. their numbers have been proven to be REAL. Yukon too. 

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    I hope they continue to produce a performance Astra, or at least allow the option of it as an upgrade perhaps? Would be a great shame if they just threw it down the pan.

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    A boost of 42lb-ft would be nice but I don't think I could convince the other half that spending the money for 91 octane would be worth it.   Darn.

     

    Oh well, Regal GS AWD could be the solution. ;-)

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    With the 2016 Cruze based on the new D2XX platform with transverse AWD support, one cannot help but wonder if GM should take up the torch Mitsubishi is setting down.  The formula is simple and very attainable:-

    • Base Price: $39,995
    • 2016 Cruze Chassis (D2XX) -- 3,200 lbs Target Weight
    • 400 bhp 2.0L Extreme Output Turbo Four (LTX)*
    • Getrag 7DCT500 7-speed Dual Clutch transmission (7,500 rpm max input speed; 413 lb-ft Max Torque)
    • Open Front / Active Rear / Quaife Helical Torque Biasing Center Differential (40F/60R default split)
    • Wider Fenders wrapping 18x9.5" wheels shrodded by 275/35R18 Michellin Super Sport Tires
    • Brembo Brakes w/ 14.6" vented Discs (Front) ; 13.3" vented discs (rear) -- from ATS-V
    • Recaro Racing Bucket Seats (Optional)
    • Aggressive Air Dam / Hood Vent / Ridiculous Wing  (Totally Optional)

    *2.0L Extreme Output (LTX) Engine

     

    Based on the ubiqutous 270 hp / 295 lb-ft (LTG) 2.0L engine, the (LTX) is beefed up with light weight Titantium connecting rods, Titanium Intake Valves, hypereutectic pistons and a forged crankshaft. Compression Ratio remains at 9.5:1, but the twin-scroll turbocharger is englarged and features a titanium-aluminide turbine wheel. The Intercooler system is replaced with a low volume, high efficiency air-to-water setup. Maximum boost remains unchanged at 22 psi, but the new turbo now supports much higher airflow rates allowing for the torque peak of 300 lb-ft be available from 3000 to 7000 rpm. The power peak of 400 bhp is reached at the engine's 7000 rpm redline -- 500 rpm short of the 7500 rev limiter. This turbo philosophy is not unlike that adopted by the McLaren MP4-12C's M838T engine. Compared to the Mercedes CLA45AMG's M133 engine, the LTX achieves 40 more horsepower with 4 psi less boost, a more linear torque curve and an 800 rpm higher rev limit. Coupled with a lofty 7000 rpm redline this makes for a revy, easy to control engine which is less demanding on transmission or the driver.

     

    To keep the price a smidgen under $40,000, the Cruze "Evolution" SS does not employ magnetorheologic shocks, carbon-ceramic brake discs, carbon fiber body panels or active steering gears. Like on the Lancer Evolution X,  7-speed Dual Clutch Transmission is externally sourced from Getrag. The 7DCT500 however is 1 generation newer than the DCT470 on the Evo X. The key here is to win the Kamikaze Turbo AWD crown without busting the budget of the buyer demographics in the market for this type of vehicle (Working 20s and 30s year olds). This is why this needs to be a Chevy and not a Buick of Cadillac. Selling ~8000 of these annually shouldn't be a problem. More importantly though is that cars like these help to channel the attention of high schoolers and college freshmen onto the run of the mill Cruze, just like the Civic Si or the WRX STi does for the Civic and the Impreza lines.

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

     

     

    You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first.

     

    And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways..

     

    Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet....

     

     

    I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention.

     

    When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready.

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    A boost of 42lb-ft would be nice but I don't think I could convince the other half that spending the money for 91 octane would be worth it.   Darn.

     

    Oh well, Regal GS AWD could be the solution. ;-)

     

    I'm pretty sure GM's turbo engines all have good high-octane tables that give enough benefit to power and fuel economy that the cost of 91 octane is just about entirely offset. I'm weary of putting regular in any turbocharged engine, they're essentially being dumbed down just to be able to accept the cheap stuff.

     

    Trifecta offers 1.4T tunes in a number of flavors. You can tell them what you want and they'll meet your needs.

     

    I would honestly test your car on premium gas for a few tanks and just monitor the differences in fuel economy and feel, you might be surprised.

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    Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed?

     

    As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more:

    1. Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't.
    2. Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes
    3. One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills.
    4. Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding?
    5. Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang.

     

    So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

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    I am not sure why there has to be such an extreme to create a big expensive trim level when a lot of folks who want a cool fast ride just want more power, maybe better steering and suspension / wheels, and maybe even a sunroof.

     

    Maybe instead of the RS trim being just body tack ons, it could have an engine upgrade.

     

    Most simply, how about a bare Cruze, with a lone engine option for a 1.8t or 2.0t.  Then, a wheel / tire package to some nicer 18's and tires that are decent (not top of the line).  Maybe 4 wheel discs. then, offer the MT as an option.  Then have a bundle package for discounts on addition of moonroof and high end sound on the stereo.  Maybe a power seat is in there.

     

    I don't think we have to create a full SS if we take say the LT and just give it a couple options, which are mostly for an engine upgrade.

     

    I've always thought cars like the Cruze were worthy of a limited production, manual transmission specific package which not be a full bore performance model, but just some moderate upgrades to the plebian models of which they are twin.

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    I am not sure why there has to be such an extreme to create a big expensive trim level when a lot of folks who want a cool fast ride just want more power, maybe better steering and suspension / wheels, and maybe even a sunroof.

     

    Maybe instead of the RS trim being just body tack ons, it could have an engine upgrade.

     

    Most simply, how about a bare Cruze, with a lone engine option for a 1.8t or 2.0t.  Then, a wheel / tire package to some nicer 18's and tires that are decent (not top of the line).  Maybe 4 wheel discs. then, offer the MT as an option.  Then have a bundle package for discounts on addition of moonroof and high end sound on the stereo.  Maybe a power seat is in there.

     

    I don't think we have to create a full SS if we take say the LT and just give it a couple options, which are mostly for an engine upgrade.

     

    I've always thought cars like the Cruze were worthy of a limited production, manual transmission specific package which not be a full bore performance model, but just some moderate upgrades to the plebian models of which they are twin.

     

    Because that will not win any crowns and help boost the image of the Cruze and of Chevy in general in the eyes of people who grew up or are growing up with B16A powered Civics, 4G63/4B11 powered Lancer EVOs or VR38DETT powered GTRs. But, yes, you can have a Cruze GT-A if you will powered by a plain vanilla LTG engine making 270hp/295 lb-ft driving the front wheels via the 6T75 automatic transmission,17" alloy wheels and big-n-cheap sliding caliper brakes. That can go for $26K with the moonroof thrown in as standard.

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    I am a bit surprised to hear this, but then perhaps GM just isn't showing their hand. 

     

    A competitor to the Fiesta/Focus ST would be neat, though I'd hope they'd benchmark against VW's GTI, which is a little less frenetic and more accessible. 

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    Maybe GM should "re-badge" all of their performance oriented cars into one brand to see if people really care about buying unique pocket rockets and one-offs from the rest of the production.  I know!  They can call it "Pontiac" and sell this version of the Astra as the "Le Mans".

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    No one wants a performance Sonic or Cruze.  Old people that don't want a Corolla buy the Cruze and the Sonic is just cheap transportation.  Once you add $5k to a Cruze or Sonic to make it a performance model, you are basically at base Camaro money, so there is your $25k sports car.

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    What I was about to say was all but covered...

     

    I am neutral to a Cruze SS...because its hard for certain parts of America to choose a FWD pocket rocket over a RWD pony car. And now that a Camaro would be getting a turbo 4 cylinder of its own...it really is hard for GM to make a business case for it...especially when even the established brands of these "tuner" cars are not full steam ahead with them. Save for VW....sure Ford too.

     

    But here in Quebec, I think a Cruze SS, badge engineered to a tee from the Astra OPC in Europe would sell like hot cakes.  The Verano sells in Quebec quite well...the Cruze also...Honda Civics are everywhere and the old Integras and RSXs as well...the VW GTI is a very good seller so is the Audi A3....just to gauge interest in a Cruze SS...and based on that...in my opinion...I think Quebec would be a GREAT market for a Cruze SS....especially since gas prices are very European like...unlike a place like Texas for instance...and that is why in Texas...huge pick-up trucks are king...and not in Quebec...where we are the small car capital of North America...because of said high gas prices...hell, even in Mexico, they drive bigger vehicles than Quebeckers drive...

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    A boost of 42lb-ft would be nice but I don't think I could convince the other half that spending the money for 91 octane would be worth it.   Darn.

     

    Oh well, Regal GS AWD could be the solution. ;-)

     

    I'm pretty sure GM's turbo engines all have good high-octane tables that give enough benefit to power and fuel economy that the cost of 91 octane is just about entirely offset. I'm weary of putting regular in any turbocharged engine, they're essentially being dumbed down just to be able to accept the cheap stuff.

     

    Trifecta offers 1.4T tunes in a number of flavors. You can tell them what you want and they'll meet your needs.

     

    I would honestly test your car on premium gas for a few tanks and just monitor the differences in fuel economy and feel, you might be surprised.

     

     

    I have a road trip coming in a few weeks. I know it will do 33mpg on the highway and we get 26mpg city.  I'll have to test it with premium since work is paying anyway. 

     

    Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed?

     

    As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more:

    1. Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't.
    2. Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes
    3. One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills.
    4. Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding?
    5. Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang.

     

    So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

     

     

    and RWD... in many parts of the country, RWD is a no-go. 

    No one wants a performance Sonic or Cruze.  Old people that don't want a Corolla buy the Cruze and the Sonic is just cheap transportation.  Once you add $5k to a Cruze or Sonic to make it a performance model, you are basically at base Camaro money, so there is your $25k sports car.

     

    Lots of people buy GTI and GLIs... why shouldn't Chevy go for that crowd?

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    And Drew mentioned something that I always think about...but in reverse...

     

    I always think about RWD cars as enthusiast cars...but not FWD cars...when in fact...FWD cars are just as capable in being enthusiast cars as RWD cars are...therefore...as Drew pointed out...in amny parts of the good ol' USA...RWD  is a no-go....in Quebec RWD is definitely a no-go...therefore a Cruze SS fits that target market quite well. Integra GS-Rs and  Type Rs were just the bomb in my neck of the woods back in the day...VW GTIs CONTINUE to carry the pocket rocket flame in Quebec...so I re-inforce my stance as a Cruze SS would be very welcomed in my neighborhood.

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    Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed?

     

    As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more:

    • Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't.
    • Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes
    • One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills.
    • Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding?
    • Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang.
     

    So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

    Well U only quoted part of my post. If U take the time to read what I wrote entirely then U will see that I was not saying that I didn't want them to build pocket rockets.. My post points out that I see WHY they have come to the decision not to in the near future. The part about the Fiesta vs the Mustang stands tho.. Has the car I picked been a Focus the your point would have been valid. There is very limited utility in a Fiesta. The Focus and Cruz? Yeah. I blatantly said the old Cobalt formula should be put in to place for the Cruze. Even the Sonic.. As it is slightly larger than the Fiesta... A car I see as more of girl car that anything else

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    Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed?

     

    As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more:

    • Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't.
    • Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes
    • One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills.
    • Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding?
    • Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang.
     

    So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

    Well U only quoted part of my post. If U take the time to read what I wrote entirely then U will see that I was not saying that I didn't want them to build pocket rockets.. My post points out that I see WHY they have come to the decision not to in the near future. The part about the Fiesta vs the Mustang stands tho.. Has the car I picked been a Focus the your point would have been valid. There is very limited utility in a Fiesta. The Focus and Cruz? Yeah. I blatantly said the old Cobalt formula should be put in to place for the Cruze. Even the Sonic.. As it is slightly larger than the Fiesta... A car I see as more of girl car that anything else

     

     

    I was seeking clarifications regarding your point there. WHY GM thinks it doesn't need the pocket rockets cannot be logically proved from your statement of so called tiered performance approach that Chevy has but others lack. These cars are going to be bottom of the GM's so called performance steps approach anyways and will not be competing with cars you mentioned in GM's lineup. So GM's logic, if it's per your comment, is flawed.

     

    Your initial argument was, why would someone buy Fiesta ST over base Mustang for $1K more. I gave you multitude of reasons as to why one would do so. It seems like you believe the statement for utility is incorrect. Let's look at the numbers: the hatchback offers cargo volume of 10 feet3 (26 feet3 with rear seats folded) compared to 13 feet3 in the Mustang's dickie. So okay I will give that to you are correct about limited utility of the Fiesta, given smaller trunk volume. Although that statement assumes no one is ever going to use hatch's versatility of folding back seats and/or having extra set of doors. Mustang has none such option. But it seems like you have no comments on the rest of the points for Fiesta's superiority, so either you approve what I say or you ignore to point your correctness.

     

    As far as Focus ST is concerned, I am glad you didn't include in your comment, otherwise the statement would have made sense like smk's statements - Blatant superlatives with no numbers or solid premises to backup.

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    Chevy has a solid performance set of cars in its line-up. Chevy, like Nissan, for instance, offers a Camaro (370Z) and a Corvette (GT-R) Each oof Chevy's models do come in "Steps" from V6 to V8 to S/C V8. VW does not do this. Ford technically does not do this, and even with the upcoming GT, will still not be doing this as that car will costs about $400,000 and be extremely limited. Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    Are you saying the pocket rockets are cross shopped with GTRs and Z06s, given Chevy and Nissan's plethora of performance products and therefore should not be needed?

     

    As far as why the EFF someone would pay $22K for a GD Fiesta if Mustang is $1K more:

    • Choices - Didn't you say Cadillac is hurting in sales because of what? Choices. GM flourished in the 50s and 60s due to choices and today it doesn't.
    • Utility - Good luck with putting your ovesized utility items in a Mustang when you make trips to Lowes
    • One Car Does It All - Not everyone has luxury or resources to own different types of vehicles for different moods owing to financial, locational, or desirability constraints. But yet want balance of performance, utility, fuel economy and fun to drive. These cars fit the bills.
    • Insurance Cost - Insurance is not going to be same for those two cars. And which one will a cop catch while speeding?
    • Value - You get a lot more value for a $22k fully loaded fiesta than a $23k bottom dweller mustang.
     

    So, performance is NOT the only metric here. The effing one trick pony loses to a GD pocket rocket holistically .

    Well U only quoted part of my post. If U take the time to read what I wrote entirely then U will see that I was not saying that I didn't want them to build pocket rockets.. My post points out that I see WHY they have come to the decision not to in the near future. The part about the Fiesta vs the Mustang stands tho.. Has the car I picked been a Focus the your point would have been valid. There is very limited utility in a Fiesta. The Focus and Cruz? Yeah. I blatantly said the old Cobalt formula should be put in to place for the Cruze. Even the Sonic.. As it is slightly larger than the Fiesta... A car I see as more of girl car that anything else

     

     

    I was seeking clarifications regarding your point there. WHY GM thinks it doesn't need the pocket rockets cannot be logically proved from your statement of so called tiered performance approach that Chevy has but others lack. These cars are going to be bottom of the GM's so called performance steps approach anyways and will not be competing with cars you mentioned in GM's lineup. So GM's logic, if it's per your comment, is flawed.

     

    Your initial argument was, why would someone buy Fiesta ST over base Mustang for $1K more. I gave you multitude of reasons as to why one would do so. It seems like you believe the statement for utility is incorrect. Let's look at the numbers: the hatchback offers cargo volume of 10 feet3 (26 feet3 with rear seats folded) compared to 13 feet3 in the Mustang's dickie. So okay I will give that to you are correct about limited utility of the Fiesta, given smaller trunk volume. Although that statement assumes no one is ever going to use hatch's versatility of folding back seats and/or having extra set of doors. Mustang has none such option. But it seems like you have no comments on the rest of the points for Fiesta's superiority, so either you approve what I say or you ignore to point your correctness.

     

    As far as Focus ST is concerned, I am glad you didn't include in your comment, otherwise the statement would have made sense like smk's statements - Blatant superlatives with no numbers or solid premises to backup.

     

     

     

    No.. my original "argument" was to the point of PERFORMANCE in these cars to dollars. Why would anyone wanting to purchase a performance car.. buy a Fiesta ST when the Mustang is only $1K more? Make your argument with the Focus ST and I would give U some credit.. but the Fiesta ST is not a real stepping stone IMO. The Focus ST actually offers relevant performance. I 'll stick with 0-60 times despite 0-60 being a metric I hate using when talking about performance. The Focus ST,.. 0-60 in 6.1 which is pretty close to Mustang times. The Fiesta ST??? 6.7seconds. The Chevy Volt is now a competitor. Road and Track

     

    and WTF am I arguing about Fiestas for??? I Feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills. LMFAO :banghead:

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

     

     

    You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first.

     

    And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways..

     

    Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet....

     

     

    I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention.

     

    When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready.

     

     

     

    Nah, I'll think they'll be ready...I onl y have to look at the new Camaro to see where the future lies for cars like the Cruze. I think for the first time in a long time, we'll like what we'll see......

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    No one wants a performance Sonic or Cruze.  Old people that don't want a Corolla buy the Cruze and the Sonic is just cheap transportation.  Once you add $5k to a Cruze or Sonic to make it a performance model, you are basically at base Camaro money, so there is your $25k sports car.

     

     

    Believe it or not, if we're talking fun daily driver and not all out model, I think it might not be much more....

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    I was seeking clarifications regarding your point there. WHY GM thinks it doesn't need the pocket rockets cannot be logically proved from your statement of so called tiered performance approach that Chevy has but others lack. These cars are going to be bottom of the GM's so called performance steps approach anyways and will not be competing with cars you mentioned in GM's lineup. So GM's logic, if it's per your comment, is flawed.

     

    Your initial argument was, why would someone buy Fiesta ST over base Mustang for $1K more. I gave you multitude of reasons as to why one would do so. It seems like you believe the statement for utility is incorrect. Let's look at the numbers: the hatchback offers cargo volume of 10 feet3 (26 feet3 with rear seats folded) compared to 13 feet3 in the Mustang's dickie. So okay I will give that to you are correct about limited utility of the Fiesta, given smaller trunk volume. Although that statement assumes no one is ever going to use hatch's versatility of folding back seats and/or having extra set of doors. Mustang has none such option. But it seems like you have no comments on the rest of the points for Fiesta's superiority, so either you approve what I say or you ignore to point your correctness.

     

    As far as Focus ST is concerned, I am glad you didn't include in your comment, otherwise the statement would have made sense like smk's statements - Blatant superlatives with no numbers or solid premises to backup.

     

     

    No.. my original "argument" was to the point of PERFORMANCE in these cars to dollars. Why would anyone wanting to purchase a performance car.. buy a Fiesta ST when the Mustang is only $1K more? Make your argument with the Focus ST and I would give U some credit.. but the Fiesta ST is not a real stepping stone IMO. The Focus ST actually offers relevant performance. I 'll stick with 0-60 times despite 0-60 being a metric I hate using when talking about performance. The Focus ST,.. 0-60 in 6.1 which is pretty close to Mustang times. The Fiesta ST??? 6.7seconds. The Chevy Volt is now a competitor. Road and Track

     

    and WTF am I arguing about Fiestas for??? I Feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills. LMFAO :banghead:

     

     

     

    Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

     

    I don't see anywhere mention about performance. But fine I will give your metrics to argue of 0-60 mph. Honda Accord V6 and Camry V6 are faster than your performance oriented V-6 Mustang, Why should I buy the Mustang now, if Accord and Camry satisfy the other aspects, which a Mustang doesn't? You need more of your crazy pills.

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

     

     

    You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first.

     

    And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways..

     

    Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet....

     

     

    I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention.

     

    When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready.

     

     

    Nah, I'll think they'll be ready...I onl y have to look at the new Camaro to see where the future lies for cars like the Cruze. I think for the first time in a long time, we'll like what we'll see......

     

     

    Perception is different than reality. Unless you have internal knowledge or concrete facts, you are just posting your opinion.

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    I was seeking clarifications regarding your point there. WHY GM thinks it doesn't need the pocket rockets cannot be logically proved from your statement of so called tiered performance approach that Chevy has but others lack. These cars are going to be bottom of the GM's so called performance steps approach anyways and will not be competing with cars you mentioned in GM's lineup. So GM's logic, if it's per your comment, is flawed.

    Your initial argument was, why would someone buy Fiesta ST over base Mustang for $1K more. I gave you multitude of reasons as to why one would do so. It seems like you believe the statement for utility is incorrect. Let's look at the numbers: the hatchback offers cargo volume of 10 feet3 (26 feet3 with rear seats folded) compared to 13 feet3 in the Mustang's dickie. So okay I will give that to you are correct about limited utility of the Fiesta, given smaller trunk volume. Although that statement assumes no one is ever going to use hatch's versatility of folding back seats and/or having extra set of doors. Mustang has none such option. But it seems like you have no comments on the rest of the points for Fiesta's superiority, so either you approve what I say or you ignore to point your correctness.

    As far as Focus ST is concerned, I am glad you didn't include in your comment, otherwise the statement would have made sense like smk's statements - Blatant superlatives with no numbers or solid premises to backup.

    No.. my original "argument" was to the point of PERFORMANCE in these cars to dollars. Why would anyone wanting to purchase a performance car.. buy a Fiesta ST when the Mustang is only $1K more? Make your argument with the Focus ST and I would give U some credit.. but the Fiesta ST is not a real stepping stone IMO. The Focus ST actually offers relevant performance. I 'll stick with 0-60 times despite 0-60 being a metric I hate using when talking about performance. The Focus ST,.. 0-60 in 6.1 which is pretty close to Mustang times. The Fiesta ST??? 6.7seconds. The Chevy Volt is now a competitor. Road and Track

    and WTF am I arguing about Fiestas for??? I Feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills. LMFAO :banghead:

    Then there is the price. Why the EFF, would someone pay $22K for a God Damn Fiesta ST when they could get a Mustang for only $1K more???

    I don't see anywhere mention about performance. But fine I will give your metrics to argue of 0-60 mph. Honda Accord V6 and Camry V6 are faster than your performance oriented V-6 Mustang, Why should I buy the Mustang now, if Accord and Camry satisfy the other aspects, which a Mustang doesn't? You need more of your crazy pills.

    I this back and forth? Yeah.. 'script me up. 3 refills minimum.

    The very thread is about performance pocket rockets. Why would I not realize that U was talking about it?

    Why would one buy Mustang non-GT, I assume since U brought up Camcorder and faster? Well because of non boring styling, RWD handling, iconic name plate, it's not POS Japanese car... to name a few.

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    There is a whole segment of car guys who have no interest in RWD pony cars.  It doesn't matter how good the performance is and for how cheap, you'll never catch them in a Mustang or Camaro.   If the Sonic 5-door had a better performing powertrain option, you might be able to pry them out of their Civics or Scions.... but GM will never ever do it with a Camaro.

     

    It's not wrong or right, it is simply a preference segment. 

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    I this back and forth? Yeah.. 'script me up. 3 refills minimum.

    The very thread is about performance pocket rockets. Why would I not realize that U was talking about it?

    Why would one buy Mustang non-GT, I assume since U brought up Camcorder and faster? Well because of non boring styling, RWD handling, iconic name plate, it's not POS Japanese car... to name a few.

     

     

    It's no back and forth buddy, I am a doctor to help you find the root cause of your ailment. I just need to diagnose you right before I can put my name on the prescription. :)

     

    Well, I am using your standards of your choice to dispute validity of arguments you are posing about superiority of Mustang. As Drew has said here, just look at the target demographics for these cars and their desires. With that let us bring the thread back to the subject.

     

    It is not ONLY PERFORMANCE but balance of performance, utility, fuel economy, fun to drive factors and value. Sure there is a 6/10 of a second sacrifice to 60 mph but it is not going to make someone loose sleep over. When Fiesta can go 10 to 20% farther even with a smaller tank of gas, while offering room for carrying weekend goods, fully loaded with features and carve the roads at the same time at may be 85% of the potential of a true RWD performance car costing more. It is able to park in the smallest of the parking lots in the city. That's why GTI is loved. It is a true all rounder for someone who doesn't need, want, afford or like all out performance.

     

    And that is the segment that GM doesn't compete in. And it is performance segment because you do not have base engines making anemic horsepowers and reaching your performance metric of 60 mph in 12 seconds. Just metrics are different my friend. It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance. If you don't like it fine, you have all out Camaro to go to. But where is a GM fan looking for above going to go to?

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    I this back and forth? Yeah.. 'script me up. 3 refills minimum.

    The very thread is about performance pocket rockets. Why would I not realize that U was talking about it?

    Why would one buy Mustang non-GT, I assume since U brought up Camcorder and faster? Well because of non boring styling, RWD handling, iconic name plate, it's not POS Japanese car... to name a few.

     

     

    It's no back and forth buddy, I am a doctor to help you find the root cause of your ailment. I just need to diagnose you right before I can put my name on the prescription. :)

     

    Well, I am using your standards of your choice to dispute validity of arguments you are posing about superiority of Mustang. As Drew has said here, just look at the target demographics for these cars and their desires. With that let us bring the thread back to the subject.

     

    It is not ONLY PERFORMANCE but balance of performance, utility, fuel economy, fun to drive factors and value. Sure there is a 6/10 of a second sacrifice to 60 mph but it is not going to make someone loose sleep over. When Fiesta can go 10 to 20% farther even with a smaller tank of gas, while offering room for carrying weekend goods, fully loaded with features and carve the roads at the same time at may be 85% of the potential of a true RWD performance car costing more. It is able to park in the smallest of the parking lots in the city. That's why GTI is loved. It is a true all rounder for someone who doesn't need, want, afford or like all out performance.

     

    And that is the segment that GM doesn't compete in. And it is performance segment because you do not have base engines making anemic horsepowers and reaching your performance metric of 60 mph in 12 seconds. Just metrics are different my friend. It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance. If you don't like it fine, you have all out Camaro to go to. But where is a GM fan looking for above going to go to?

     

     

     

     

    The thing is, and I think U keep missing or ignoring, is that say for instance in your mentioning of the Golf.. GTi in particular.. I have no issue with GM offering a Verano GS, Verano GS Hatch, a Cruze SS, Cruze hatch SS.. even a Sonic SS or RS with actual HP upgrades... then we are in agreement. But the Fiesta ST is not really kicking out, IMO, a worthwhile performance upgrade, not to mention its cargo area, to your utility argument,  is nothing to write home about.. and no better than a small trunk. The Sonic at least has a nice sized cargo area, despite being similar in exterior length to the Fiesta. It even comes off as a larger car than the Fiesta,.... which would be like us asking Chevy to create a SPARK SS.

     

    Again I get your argument about having a POCKET ROCKET.. I just don't agree that the Fiesta is the one to have.. or in Chevy's case.. a SPARK. 

     

    Review:

     

    I agree with a:

    Sonic SS (or RS with actual more HP)

    Cruze SS

    Verano GS

    Encore GS

    Trax SS

    Focus ST,RS

     

     

    I don't agree with:

     

    Spark SS

    Fiesta ST.

     

    No to mention that this segment is somewhat stale and not really producing any numbers to make a real case for. The Fiesta isn't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of sales since the intro of the ST. In fact the Sonic is beating it in sales by a few thousand YTD , and that's WITH the Spark and Trax  on the same lot stealing sales.

     

     

    Lastly... I get that U wanna have "a car for everyone" at Chevy.. but looking at my statement above proves that the market apparently does have somewhere to go to at Chevy.. and that the slight uptick in HP really isn't making a huge business case for GM to decide in its favor. Furthermore, your argument could be made for various manufacturers not ALWAYS having a car for everyone seeking a particular niche.

     

    Where at Toyota, Honda, or VW can I get a Corvette competitor??? How about at Hyundai for a Pick-up??? Why can't I get an Escalade competitor over at BMW??? Why do I have to settle for a 278HP max Accord Coupe at Honda if I wanted to get back at Chevy for not making the Camaro look like the Gen 2??? Why can't I get a cheap, POS, ugly, pedestrian, snout nosed, $h!ty driving compact Mercedes??? OH WAIT!!! 1r45kn.jpg

     

    9192_cc0640_001_650.jpg

     

     

    Its a conundrum being me.. as I see what U are saying, and would applaud the intro of several products that handle niche... but then I also see it from a business point of view as well. 

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    My issue with GM is that they hold back the good stuff from North America.  

     

    The 1.6T is a 200hp, 206 lb-ft direct injected engine that returns fantastic fuel economy.  The Europeans get it... so far, it's here only in the Buick Cascada.  Why can't we get this engine in the Sonic and Cruze and Encore and Trax?  Even the 1.5T with 160hp and 184lb-ft would be a welcome upgrade in these cars

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    My issue with GM is that they hold back the good stuff from North America.  

     

    The 1.6T is a 200hp, 206 lb-ft direct injected engine that returns fantastic fuel economy.  The Europeans get it... so far, it's here only in the Buick Cascada.  Why can't we get this engine in the Sonic and Cruze and Encore and Trax?  Even the 1.5T with 160hp and 184lb-ft would be a welcome upgrade in these cars

     

     

     

    Just thinking that a "LIKE" button would be kinda cool when the new software arrives. 

     

    Anyway.. I agree. I think that U should be able to have a choice of at least 2 engines in each car. Add the cost in for the accommodation. 200hp, 206lb-ft would be a damn nice add on in a Cruze RS and a Sonic SS

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    My issue with GM is that they hold back the good stuff from North America.  

     

    The 1.6T is a 200hp, 206 lb-ft direct injected engine that returns fantastic fuel economy.  The Europeans get it... so far, it's here only in the Buick Cascada.  Why can't we get this engine in the Sonic and Cruze and Encore and Trax?  Even the 1.5T with 160hp and 184lb-ft would be a welcome upgrade in these cars

     

     

     

    Just thinking that a "LIKE" button would be kinda cool when the new software arrives. 

     

    Anyway.. I agree. I think that U should be able to have a choice of at least 2 engines in each car. Add the cost in for the accommodation. 200hp, 206lb-ft would be a damn nice add on in a Cruze RS and a Sonic SS

     

     

    We have the Vote Up and Vote Down buttons in place of the Like button.  Look for the red and green arrows.

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    My issue with GM is that they hold back the good stuff from North America.  

     

    The 1.6T is a 200hp, 206 lb-ft direct injected engine that returns fantastic fuel economy.  The Europeans get it... so far, it's here only in the Buick Cascada.  Why can't we get this engine in the Sonic and Cruze and Encore and Trax?  Even the 1.5T with 160hp and 184lb-ft would be a welcome upgrade in these cars

     

     

     

    Just thinking that a "LIKE" button would be kinda cool when the new software arrives. 

     

    Anyway.. I agree. I think that U should be able to have a choice of at least 2 engines in each car. Add the cost in for the accommodation. 200hp, 206lb-ft would be a damn nice add on in a Cruze RS and a Sonic SS

     

     

    We have the Vote Up and Vote Down buttons in place of the Like button.  Look for the red and green arrows.

     

     

     

    I just keep overlooking stuff.. lol

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    Excuses. There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

    Mr. Reuss, by spending money on things like these you are keeping and creating customers who go to other brands because of lack of choices, even if it means less ROIC than other bread and butter vehicles. For me, e.g., I am looking at a GTI, ST, Mazda3 S hatch as a daily driver, why? Because there's nothing in GM stable that provides utility, performance, fuel economy and fun-to-drive factor in a smaller, cheaper to insure package.

     

    When it comes to the main stream cars, GM is following Toyota model for being boring and appealing masses rather than covering all bases. It had a goodwill in Cobalt SS, HHR SS Turbo and blew it with Cruze by not offering one.

     

     

    You, my good friend, are in a rare crowd right now. None of these cars are big sellers at the moment, and I know Ford is cutting back on ST production right now. And while it's good to have a halo car right now, I'm just not sure if the time is right just yet. With GM working on a bunch of updated models right now, I would rather see that finished first.

     

    And I am not so sure about the Cruze...I've seen quite a few modded ones, so I know there is some movement out there. Lots of folks are modding that 1.4 anyways..

     

    Trust me, as a small car guy myself, I'd love to agree with ya! Just not GM is ready yet....

     

     

    I never said that the sales will be sky high, hence my reference to reduced ROIC (Return of Invested Capital). And I never mention them to be halo cars. These cars are never intended to be sold at rate of 25,000 a month, but even at 2,500 to 3,000 a month that is additional 10% sales. GM always seems to look at 80-20, target the 80 and ignore the 20 and this my friend is no different. These cars are mainly for goodwill and keeping enthusiasts within the family while adding some profit and GM is horrible at retention.

     

    When is the right time, if not now? Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM's size it will ALWAYS be working on updating models. GM was not ready with Cruze 6 years ago when it did not bring SS version (yes fully agree with bankruptcy) but nothing is preventing that now, I guess with this mentality it will never be ready.

     

     

    Nah, I'll think they'll be ready...I onl y have to look at the new Camaro to see where the future lies for cars like the Cruze. I think for the first time in a long time, we'll like what we'll see......

     

     

    Perception is different than reality. Unless you have internal knowledge or concrete facts, you are just posting your opinion.

     

     

     

    Maybe... just can't say.... :scratchchin:

     

    Point is you don't think the new camaro's tech is not going to rub off on other models?

     

     

    Can't dream of a twin turbo Cruze? :metal:  :bowdown:

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    My issue with GM is that they hold back the good stuff from North America.  

     

    The 1.6T is a 200hp, 206 lb-ft direct injected engine that returns fantastic fuel economy.  The Europeans get it... so far, it's here only in the Buick Cascada.  Why can't we get this engine in the Sonic and Cruze and Encore and Trax?  Even the 1.5T with 160hp and 184lb-ft would be a welcome upgrade in these cars

    Agreed!

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    Nah, I'll think they'll be ready...I onl y have to look at the new Camaro to see where the future lies for cars like the Cruze. I think for the first time in a long time, we'll like what we'll see......

     

     

    Perception is different than reality. Unless you have internal knowledge or concrete facts, you are just posting your opinion.

     

     

     

    Maybe... just can't say.... :scratchchin:

     

    Point is you don't think the new camaro's tech is not going to rub off on other models?

     

     

    Can't dream of a twin turbo Cruze? :metal:  :bowdown:

     

     

    What new tech? Most of the tech already exists and the small cars with performance exist. Bring one then we can talk.

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    The thing is, and I think U keep missing or ignoring, is that say for instance in your mentioning of the Golf.. GTi in particular.. I have no issue with GM offering a Verano GS, Verano GS Hatch, a Cruze SS, Cruze hatch SS.. even a Sonic SS or RS with actual HP upgrades... then we are in agreement. But the Fiesta ST is not really kicking out, IMO, a worthwhile performance upgrade, not to mention its cargo area, to your utility argument,  is nothing to write home about.. and no better than a small trunk. The Sonic at least has a nice sized cargo area, despite being similar in exterior length to the Fiesta. It even comes off as a larger car than the Fiesta,.... which would be like us asking Chevy to create a SPARK SS.

     

    Again I get your argument about having a POCKET ROCKET.. I just don't agree that the Fiesta is the one to have.. or in Chevy's case.. a SPARK. 

     

    Review:

     

    I agree with a:

    Sonic SS (or RS with actual more HP)

    Cruze SS

    Verano GS

    Encore GS

    Trax SS

    Focus ST,RS

     

     

    I don't agree with:

     

    Spark SS

    Fiesta ST.

     

    No to mention that this segment is somewhat stale and not really producing any numbers to make a real case for. The Fiesta isn't exactly setting the world on fire in terms of sales since the intro of the ST. In fact the Sonic is beating it in sales by a few thousand YTD , and that's WITH the Spark and Trax  on the same lot stealing sales.

     

     

    Lastly... I get that U wanna have "a car for everyone" at Chevy.. but looking at my statement above proves that the market apparently does have somewhere to go to at Chevy.. and that the slight uptick in HP really isn't making a huge business case for GM to decide in its favor. Furthermore, your argument could be made for various manufacturers not ALWAYS having a car for everyone seeking a particular niche.

     

    Where at Toyota, Honda, or VW can I get a Corvette competitor??? How about at Hyundai for a Pick-up??? Why can't I get an Escalade competitor over at BMW??? Why do I have to settle for a 278HP max Accord Coupe at Honda if I wanted to get back at Chevy for not making the Camaro look like the Gen 2??? Why can't I get a cheap, POS, ugly, pedestrian, snout nosed, $h!ty driving compact Mercedes??? OH WAIT!!! 1r45kn.jpg

     

    Its a conundrum being me.. as I see what U are saying, and would applaud the intro of several products that handle niche... but then I also see it from a business point of view as well. 

     

     

    Dear Patient, before I put you on other of your crazy pills, let us get this straight that Fiesta ST was brought by you in this thread by comparing it with base Mustang not me. And I gave you five reasons as to why Fiesta ST would be chosen in comparison with Mustang, which you thought was a straight forward choice. At least I did not comprehend in your post about Fiesta ST being compared to a larger FWD smaller vehicles. But then please enlighten me, where in that post you say so. I even didn't make reference to the Fiesta ST in my last response here, but you regurgitated it.

     

    You may think Fiesta is Spark competitor, but numbers and magazines say otherwise. Ford may have not packaged its interior better than its competitors, but it is packaged better in utility, COMPARED TO A MUSTANG to which you compared with in that post.

     

    Okay I will even agree with you that Fiesta sized vehicles should never be performance oriented. But then Ford has balls to at least make it so, even if it means selling 10 of them a month (see I agree with you here also). Where are GM's balls for Sonic, which according to you should have performance version? Given lack of debt from bankruptcy, flexibility of manufacturing it promised from reemerging since bankruptcy, and existence of similar vehicles in other markets GM should be able to make profits on cars with low volumes, unlike Ford, which still has debt to pay. Isn't that the precise reason why Sonic was moved to US? At least that's what GM croaked as to it being the first small car to be manufactured in US due to GM's manufacturing flexibility.

     

    As far as reading comprehension, "It is a true all rounder" or "It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance." is equivalent to "a car for everyone"? I don't think I am the one missing or ignoring.

     

    Also,

     

     

    Where at Toyota, Honda, or VW can I get a Corvette competitor??? How about at Hyundai for a Pick-up??? Why can't I get an Escalade competitor over at BMW??? Why do I have to settle for a 278HP max Accord Coupe at Honda if I wanted to get back at Chevy for not making the Camaro look like the Gen 2??? Why can't I get a cheap, POS, ugly, pedestrian, snout nosed, $h!ty driving compact Mercedes??? OH WAIT!!!

     

    The argument above would not have been made, if comment below was read carefully in one of my other posts, because the single major hole in that theory is none of those manufacturers offer ANY equivalent car in other market, unlike GM, which it does. Your Chevroletdes Benz comment just further solidifies how much you read around here. May be you should own one of the FWD tri-star because based on your post, it seems like you really want one (clarification for your comprehension - assumption here is there's no sarcasm in that post).

     

     

    There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

     

    Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM already has OPC, GTC versions and the necessary power train along with car platforms are geared to be world platforms, the cost of federalization is much lower than Toyota building a Corvette competitor, which it is BTW with BMW.

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    Dear Patient, before I put you on other of your crazy pills, let us get this straight that Fiesta ST was brought by you in this thread by comparing it with base Mustang not me. And I gave you five reasons as to why Fiesta ST would be chosen in comparison with Mustang, which you thought was a straight forward choice. At least I did not comprehend in your post about Fiesta ST being compared to a larger FWD smaller vehicles. But then please enlighten me, where in that post you say so. I even didn't make reference to the Fiesta ST in my last response here, but you regurgitated it.

     

    You may think Fiesta is Spark competitor, but numbers and magazines say otherwise. Ford may have not packaged its interior better than its competitors, but it is packaged better in utility, COMPARED TO A MUSTANG to which you compared with in that post.

     

    Okay I will even agree with you that Fiesta sized vehicles should never be performance oriented. But then Ford has balls to at least make it so, even if it means selling 10 of them a month (see I agree with you here also). Where are GM's balls for Sonic, which according to you should have performance version? Given lack of debt from bankruptcy, flexibility of manufacturing it promised from reemerging since bankruptcy, and existence of similar vehicles in other markets GM should be able to make profits on cars with low volumes, unlike Ford, which still has debt to pay. Isn't that the precise reason why Sonic was moved to US? At least that's what GM croaked as to it being the first small car to be manufactured in US due to GM's manufacturing flexibility.

     

    As far as reading comprehension, "It is a true all rounder" or "It is a compromise of all and well rounded at everything segment of performance." is equivalent to "a car for everyone"? I don't think I am the one missing or ignoring.

     

    Also,

     

     

    Where at Toyota, Honda, or VW can I get a Corvette competitor??? How about at Hyundai for a Pick-up??? Why can't I get an Escalade competitor over at BMW??? Why do I have to settle for a 278HP max Accord Coupe at Honda if I wanted to get back at Chevy for not making the Camaro look like the Gen 2??? Why can't I get a cheap, POS, ugly, pedestrian, snout nosed, $h!ty driving compact Mercedes??? OH WAIT!!!

     

    The argument above would not have been made, if comment below was read carefully in one of my other posts, because the single major hole in that theory is none of those manufacturers offer ANY equivalent car in other market, unlike GM, which it does. Your Chevroletdes Benz comment just further solidifies how much you read around here. May be you should own one of the FWD tri-star because based on your post, it seems like you really want one (clarification for your comprehension - assumption here is there's no sarcasm in that post).

     

     

    There's already development of these vehicles from GM-Europe and most of the new platforms are federalized.

     

     

    Unlike Z-06, Z-28, or V which take substantial R&D, most of these cars are high performance versions of lesser siblings that can be developed with them simultaneously, just ask Mercedes Benz how it does with AMG. Suspension tuning and handling is the only part that will require extra work. But it's not like starting ground up.

     

    Given GM already has OPC, GTC versions and the necessary power train along with car platforms are geared to be world platforms, the cost of federalization is much lower than Toyota building a Corvette competitor, which it is BTW with BMW.

     

     

     

     

    No. The Fiesta ST was brought up by the original Article. Look at the quote from Autonews. The problem with your "utility" argument really stems from the fact that this article.. the one that we are actually discussing.. isn't talking about UTILITY. It is talking about cheap performance "pocket rockets.." which technically, at $21K, the Fiesta is not. It also isn't really a "rocket" with a 0-60 time at 7seconds. A time that my 5000lb Yukon would leave in the dust. Hell the SPARK EV is almost the same with 7.5. 

     

    2) I obviously don't ever even want to be seen around, let alone owning a CLA

     

    3) The Toyota/BMW isn't here yet, and we are looking at almost 3 years before it is supposed to debute

     

    4) I agree on the "bring the already developed cars here" ideology. I have long said, and even in my first few posts in this thread reiterated that I believe the Cruze and Verano should get OPC/VXR treatments. I also said that the Sonic RS should get more than cosmetic changes. As it stands tho the Sonic does get a factory warrantied upgrade if the owner wished for $695, but I think the 10 more HP (up to 148 HP) and 10%increase in torque (+15 lb.-ft.) doesn't go far enough

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