Jump to content
Create New...
  • William Maley
    William Maley

    GM's Upcoming Electric Onslaught

      11 Vehicles, New Platform and Battery Tech


    On Wednesday, General Motors invited a number of media to their tech center in Warren, MI for their EV Day event. The company is making a big bet on electric vehicles with 11 new vehicles rolling out by 2025, featuring a new electric modular platform and battery tech. Here's what we know.

    Third-Generation Electric Vehicle Platform

    Underpinning this massive push is GM's new third-generation EV platform (BEV3). The new platform was designed to provide flexibility for different vehicle types - ranging from compact cars to pickup trucks. Battery packs are designed to be mounted beneath the passenger compartment to allow for a lower center of gravity. This results in more passenger room and improved handling. The platform also allows for different drive configurations - front, rear, or all-wheel drive - depending on the vehicle.

    Ultium Battery Technology

    Providing the electric power for these new models is what GM calls Ultium batteries. Working together with its battery partner LG Chem, the Ultium batteries are large-format, pouch-style cells that can either be stacked vertically or horizontally in packs. This will allow more flexibility for engineers to design battery packs for vehicles.

    More important is the chemistry of the batteries. GM has reduced the amount Cobalt - an element used in the making of batteries that is becoming harder to find and expensive - by seventy percent. Instead, the batteries are using aluminum. This will hopefully bring down the price of the battery packs.

    Battery capacity will range from 50 to 200 kilowatt hours - giving a projected max range of 400 miles depending on the vehicle. Level II and DC fast-charging are both supported.

    The Vehicles

    At the event, GM had 10 vehicles on display and one shown via digital renderings. The current plan is to start launching the new models beginning later this year.

    • Updated Chevrolet Bolt: The first vehicle to be launched in this offensive. It will get an updated interior with a more premium dash.
    • Chevrolet Bolt EUV: The crossover-variant of the Bolt, it is about five-inches longer and rides on a wheelbase that has been stretched by three inches. An updated roofline reportedly eliminates the small front windows on the Bolt. The EUV will also be the first model outside of Cadillac to get Super Cruise.
    • Chevrolet Midsize Crossover: About the same size as the Blazer, this model has an aggressive design and features a low roofline. A pair of 18-inch multimedia displays dominate the interior.
    • Chevrolet Full-Size Truck: This was the model only shown in digital renderings according to those who were at the event. It will complement the Silverado and be aimed at those who want something to be used on a job site - not like the upcoming GMC Hummer Truck or Rivian which are aimed more at lifestyle folks. This model is expected to arrive in 2025.
    • Buick Crossover and SUV: These two models didn't have a name and were wearing a design that was described by the Detroit Free Press as a "vaguely European look". 
    • GMC Hummer Truck: This will only be available in a crew-cab configuration with a five-foot bed. The design will be utilitarian and boxy. Inside, two large screens will serve as the instrument cluster and infotainment system. Don't expect any leather as many of materials used inside will be made from recycled materials. The truck will also have removable roof panels (like the Jeep Wrangler, that can be stored in the front trunk.
    • GMC Hummer SUV: Basically the same as the truck, albeit using a shorter wheelbase.
    • Cadillac Lyriq: We have seen teasers of this model last year and Cadillac dropped another this week showing off the silhouette - reminding us some crossovers from Jaguar and Porsche. The vehicle is wide and rides on 23-inch wheels. Size-wise, it is similar to the XT5. The interior boasts a 34-inch-wide high-def screen and seating for four, though the production model may have seating for five.
    • Cadillac Celestiq: A new four-door flagship sedan that has a long front end and a fastback rear according to those who saw the clay model. It will be hand-built and carry a six-figure pricetag.
    • Cadillac Large SUV: About the size of an Escalade, it be complementary vehicle to it. The model will have a more traditional design than the other Cadillac EVs. Inside, it will boast large screens up front and three-rows of seating.

    Source: Roadshow, Detroit Free Press, The Drive, General Motors
    Press Release is on Page 2


    GM Reveals New Ultium Batteries and a Flexible Global Platform to Rapidly Grow its EV Portfolio

    WARREN, Mich. – Starting today, General Motors Co. (NYSE: GM) is gathering hundreds of employees, dealers, investors, analysts, media and policymakers to share details of its strategy to grow the company’s electric vehicle (EV) sales quickly, efficiently and profitably.

    “Our team accepted the challenge to transform product development at GM and position our company for an all-electric future,” said Mary Barra, GM chairman and CEO. “What we have done is build a multi-brand, multi-segment EV strategy with economies of scale that rival our full-size truck business with much less complexity and even more flexibility.”

    The heart of GM’s strategy is a modular propulsion system and a highly flexible, third-generation global EV platform powered by proprietary Ultium batteries. They will allow the company to compete for nearly every customer in the market today, whether they are looking for affordable transportation, a luxury experience, work trucks or a high-performance machine.

    “Thousands of GM scientists, engineers and designers are working to execute an historic reinvention of the company,” said GM President Mark Reuss. “They are on the cusp of delivering a profitable EV business that can satisfy millions of customers.”

    Ultium Batteries and Propulsion System Highlights

    • GM’s new Ultium batteries are unique in the industry because the large-format, pouch-style cells can be stacked vertically or horizontally inside the battery pack. This allows engineers to optimize battery energy storage and layout for each vehicle design.
    • Ultium energy options range from 50 to 200 kWh, which could enable a GM-estimated range up to 400 miles or more on a full charge with 0 to 60 mph acceleration as low as 3 seconds. Motors designed in-house will support front-wheel drive, rear-wheel drive, all-wheel drive and performance all-wheel drive applications.
    • Ultium-powered EVs are designed for Level 2 and DC fast charging. Most will have 400-volt battery packs and up to 200 kW fast-charging capability while our truck platform will have 800-volt battery packs and 350 kW fast-charging capability.

    GM’s flexible, modular approach to EV development will drive significant economies of scale and create new revenue opportunities, including: 

    • Continuous Improvement in Battery Costs: GM’s joint venture with LG Chem will drive battery cell costs below $100/kWh. The cells use a proprietary low cobalt chemistry and ongoing technological and manufacturing breakthroughs will drive costs even lower.
    • Flexibility: GM’s all-new global platform is flexible enough to build a wide range of trucks, SUVs, crossovers, cars and commercial vehicles with outstanding design, performance, packaging, range and affordability.
    • Capital Efficiency: GM can spend less capital to scale its EV business because it is able to leverage existing property, including land, buildings, tools and production equipment such as body shops and paint shops.
    • Complexity Reduction: The vehicle and propulsion systems were designed together to minimize complexity and part counts beyond today’s EVs, which are less complex than conventional vehicles powered by internal combustion engines. For example, GM plans 19 different battery and drive unit configurations initially, compared with 550 internal combustion powertrain combinations available today.
    • Rising Customer Acceptance: Third-party forecasters expect U.S. EV volumes to more than double from 2025 to 2030 to about 3 million units on average. GM believes volumes could be materially higher as more EVs are launched in popular segments, charging networks grow and the total cost of ownership to consumers continues to fall.
    • New Sources of Revenue: By vertically integrating the manufacture of battery cells, the company can reach beyond its own fleet and license technology to others.

    The first generation of GM’s future EV program will be profitable. The initial programs will pave the way for further accretive growth. GM’s technology can be scaled to meet customer demand much higher than the more than 1 million global sales the company expects mid-decade.

    Upcoming Launches and Reveals

    Chevrolet, Cadillac, GMC and Buick will all be launching new EVs starting this year. The next new Chevrolet EV will be a new version of the Bolt EV, launching in late 2020, followed by the 2022 Bolt EUV, launching Summer 2021. The Bolt EUV will be the first vehicle outside of the Cadillac brand to feature Super Cruise, the industry's first true hands-free driving technology for the highway, which GM will expand to 22 vehicles by 2023, including 10 by next year.

    The Cruise Origin, a self-driving, electric shared vehicle, shown to the public in January 2020 in San Francisco, was the first product revealed using GM’s third generation EV platform and Ultium batteries. Next will be the Cadillac Lyriq luxury SUV in April. Details about its launch will be shared then. The reveal of the Ultium-powered GMC HUMMER EV will follow on May 20. Production is expected to begin in Fall 2021 at GM’s Detroit-Hamtramck assembly plant, GM’s first assembly plant 100 percent dedicated to EV production.

    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    GM won't be dependent on a proprietary charging network, though?   I assume they are building product to use the standard charging stations..

    true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Just now, regfootball said:

    true.  however then, the electric cars in the marketplace still won't take off en masse until a vast charge network of a common standard is built.

    Which are being built...ChargePoint, etc...

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Who’s pushing electric cars in volume??

    And when the answer to that is ‘no one’, then EVERYONE ‘pushing’ EVs is merely doing PR.

    By the very nature of commerce, every somewhat different product in a segment sees slow, incremental growth- look at one of the highest volume cars in history- the VW beetle.

    It is?!?! Every published source out there says it’s Sliced Bread 2.0; it's a Tesla!!

    at the end of the day its my main rag at GM right now.  All the PR bullshit about electric cars and all the resources down the drain keeping them from updating their core product lines.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    7 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Silverado/Sierra is only 18 months old. 😉

    True, and the full size SUVs are new, as is the Corvette.    The rest of their US product line is just forgettable FWD appliances.  

    Edited by Robert Hall
    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    2 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Model X has been available for some years- why aren’t they all already in one of those?

    Easy, tight interior room, poor interior layout. Only hard core Tesla fans buy the X and pay the crazy price. Northwest has a vary tall population. You will find most men at 6' or taller and with the Tesla X as to why I never bought is that once I was in the front, you had maybe 2" of space between the back of the front seat and the rear bottom seat pad. No one can sit behind a tall person. 

    Tesla in this regards has made an ERROR in sizing the interior seats for an average  5' 8" tall even though their beloved CEO is 6'2" tall, no one can sit behind him.

    Plus price along with quality is the other point.

    • Haha 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    5 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Who says no one will buy a $200,000 Cadillac sedan?

    You sound like SMK making assumptions where there is no proof yet.

    No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
     

    I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

    • Disagree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    40 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
     

    I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

    The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

    • Agree 2
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    No one will buy a $60,000 Cadillac sedan that is why the XT6 is dead.  The CTS at $46k base was too much so the CT5 starts under $40k.  
     

    I don’t know know where these $200k buyers are coming from, even an Escalade starts around $85k

    You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

     

    Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

    1 minute ago, balthazar said:

    [Cadillac; #2 in ATPs... but let's ignore that.]

    There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

    • Agree 2
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    32 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    You have a severe problem comparing apples to apples. By your logic, no one will ever buy a $300K overdressed S Class, I mean Maybach. Oh wait. They didn’t buy it.

     

    Oh and the Escalade routinely sells for around $100K and routinely outsells the competition. See how your logic falls flat on its face?

    There is a tendency to do that when it doesn’t suit whatever weak ass argument one is trying to serve up.

    Maybach is doing well, 2019 was a sales record for the Maybach S-class with sales up over 10% despite global S-class sales down 8% being that it is in it's 6 model year.   They have expanded to a 2nd model, which being an SUV will do well for sure.  Mercedes got Maybach wrong on the first reboot, but this 2nd try they got it right and they are on the rise now.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

    The XT6 is DEAD?  It has only been out for less than a year.  The XTS is dead and deservedly so.  FWD Cadillac sedans deserve their grave.  Give me a CT6 any day of the week rather than the XTS.

    Mistake on my part, I meant CT6, the big sedan.

    • Sad 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
    There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

    Only thing Daimler 'got right' on maybach 2.0 was a staggering price cut and a massive parts bin raid.
    There may not be a bigger downgrade in automotive history... but mercedes cannot pull down Bentley/Rolls customers. Catastrophic failure.

    They found a soft spot in the market around $175-$250k that is above where Audi and BMW end and before Rolls and Bentley  begin for the most part.  And they took that space over.  I don't know why there isn't a Maybach G-class which would make way more sense than an AMG G-class.  An electric G-wagen is coming though, could be a nice place to do a Maybach version.

     

    Edited by smk4565
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Current info on ATP's and Hyundai seems to beat the heck out of Mercedes-Benz.

    TO QUOTE:

    Average transaction prices (ATPs) in January started off 2020 much like they ended 2019: rising. The market saw a 3.5% year-over-year gain in January, to nearly $38,000. The gain was driven mostly by a heavier truck/SUV sales mix, as car share fell to 25% in January, down from 30% in January 2019. Both trucks and SUVs gained, as trucks rose to 19% of the market (up from 17% from January 2019), and SUVs climbed to 52% (up from 48%). Had the sales mix remained steady from a year ago, the year-over-year increase in ATPs would have only been about 1.5%.

    image.png

    https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-insights/average-new-vehicle-transaction-prices-up-3-5-year-over-year-in-january/

     

    • Like 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

    image.png

    @smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

    1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
    2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
    3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
    4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
    5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

    EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Seems no GERMAN BRANDS can be cost effective to own either.

    image.png

    @smk4565 Seems your favorite brand is no where to be found in the top 5 most profitable auto companies in 2019. In order from #1: 

    1. Toyota Motor Corporation with $17.5 Billion
    2. Volkswagen with $15.6 Billion
    3. General Motors Company with $9.0 Billion
    4. Bavarian Motor Works (BMW) with $5.6 Billion
    5. Honda Motor Company with $4.8 Billion

    https://www.investopedia.com/articles/company-insights/091516/most-profitable-auto-companies-2016-tm-gm.asp

    EVEN WITH A STRIKE, GM WAS MORE PROFITABLE THAN MERCEDES_BENZ

    Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

    So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

    Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    8 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Well, well, well, well. Isn't that interesting, especially in light of someone who might (mightily erroneously) claim 'Cadillac is competing with Acura' :

    Screen Shot 2020-03-11 at 11.03.37 PM.png

    I'd like to see what that Cadillac number is when CT4 and CT5 are on sale, and CT6 is out of dealers.  

    CT4 is $33k, CT5 is $37k, XT4 is $36k, and XT5 is $44k.  4 of their 6 vehicles are under $45k to start, and I know options get added on, but still, half their lineup now starts under $37k.  

    ATP for a brand is also a meaningless metric, Maserati has a great ATP, and it is a borderline dead brand.  Jaguar leas that list and they are near dead in the water.    ATP per segment is more relevant if you want to compare.   Mercedes has 4 models starting under $40k so their brand ATP is pulled down but Mercedes sells more cars over $100k than any one.  More than Bentley, BMW, Audi, Lamborghini, Rolls, etc and probably more than those 5 combined if we are being honest.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Daimler had $6.2 billion net profit in 2019.  And keep in mind Mercedes-Benz Cars Division alone spent $7.92 Billion in R&D  compared to all of GM that spent $6.8 billion or all of Toyota Corp spending $10 billion.   GM sells 4 times as many cars as Mercedes does, Toyota sells 5 times as many.  Why doesn't Cadillac have a $7 billion R&D budget to compete with Mercedes?  GM fans should be outraged.

    So not worried about Daimler's profits when they are spending heavy for the future, they'll have the electric car arsenal and carpet bomb all segments, while the others play follow the leader like they have with ICE cars the past 30 years.

    Cost of ownership for a luxury brand is irrelevant due to high leasing and also Acura is what the 7th or 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA and has a very limited global footprint.  Buyers don't care about Acura's resale or maintenance costs.

    WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

    Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

    If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

    https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

    Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

    image.png

    Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

    Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I looked up some numbers, the G-wagen alone outsold all Ferrari, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Rolls-Royce globally in 2019.  And they sold 71,700 S-class sedans so with coupe/convertible that has to be at least 80,000 and the cheapest V6 rear drive S-class with no options is $94k, which  means 99% of them are going to sticker over $100k.    Mercedes sold 4200 AMG GT in the US alone, so that number is probably more like 15-20k globally, plus the SL, the AMG 63 cars, the GLS V8's etc.  They are easily doing over 200,000 units a year of $100k and up product.  That's impressive.  

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    18 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    WRONG WRONG WRONG, Mercedes-Benz only had a $2.7 Billion net profit in 2019 after charges.

    https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/record-mercedes-benz-sales-daimler

    Lets stop trying to compare oranges to apples by adding in all of Daimler. Auto company to auto company GM to Mercedes-Benz, GM wins at $9 Billion to $2.7 Billion.

    If ya do not like Fox News as a source, then lets go to Daimlers own site for actual real facts:

    https://annualreport.daimler.com/ar2019/combined-management-report/profitability/net-operating-profit#

    Even then, you had Daimlers Net Profit for 2019 way off:

    image.png

    Even "The Gaurdian" news paper looked at Daimler and reports after charges Mercedes-Benz only had a net profit of $2.7 Billion.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/feb/11/profits-at-mercedes-benz-owner-daimler-slump-by-5bn

    Dividends have been slashed from $3.25 per share to .90 cents per share for 2019 payout. Sales were flat, Van division is in the dumps and there are additional diesel gate costs to come. Mercedes-Benz only sold 707,000 auto's in china last year far behind GM sales.

    2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

    All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    In the U.S. tho, mercedes cannot seem to stay above / put distance between their ATPs and those of the 'Acura-competitor'; Cadillac.

    "Mercedes fans should be outraged."
    - - - - -

    RE the post above mine; what happened to "6.2" billion???
    Note also that not only did Q4 profit drop by a massive 22%, MB is stating it will likely be years before they return to previous margin levels.
    AND that one way they intend to achieve that is to 'build less complex cars'.

    "Mercedes fans should be outraged."

    Edited by balthazar
    • Haha 2
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

    All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

    Yes $3 billion is still not $6.8 Billion and not enough to be in the top 5 profitable auto companies. That puts them much lower compared to GM.

    And you were comparing it to GM now you change course and point at FCA. Stop moving the goal posts, how many years have people here told you that.

    R&D you want to bring up, sure lets use real facts and Statista is recognized as the best out there by the industry. So for 2019, MB spent 8.1 Billion  across their complete product portfolio, not just EVs.

    image.png

    GM spent only 6.8 billion on their total portfolio for 2019 or $1.3 billion less than MB and had a Net Profit of $9 billion for the year compared to Mercedes-Benz Pre-Net Profit of $7.2 billion per their own web site. This was before reducing it by $4.5 billion for legal / diesel gate with more expense to come in 2020. According to todays exchange rates, their $7.2 billion in pre-net profit ends up being $8.1 billion US or $.9 billion less than GM did which spent $1.3 billion less in R&D and has a selling EV called the BOLT.

    image.png

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    @smk4565-No offense but you seriously have to know when to walk away. You started this nonsense with you weak trolling (which is probably because Benz keeps delaying their EV offerings) and now you have backstepped so many times, offering excuses for Daimler that you simply won’t do for domestics, you don’t even know what your core argument is anymore. Fact is that Benz has had just as many flops and failures as Cadillac and they have been costlier to boot (see Maybach). Maybe offering something of actual substance would be the best course of action for the future here. 

    9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    2.7 billion Euro after the adjustments so like $3 billion.  But that doesn't matter as long as they aren't losing money.  What matters is they had record high spending on R&D, they didn't budget cut and sacrifice future product like FCA has done the past 10 years and starved their product line.  

    All these companies are about to have a bad 2020, Daimler will have a bad 2020 no doubt they already said they are going to hold R&D the same as it was in 2019 which is super high, but they'll be ready in 2021 and 2022.  Anyone pushing hard for the EV change over is going to have rough years because you are spending on ICE and EV at the same time, once the transitions happens, the profits will come back.

    All that R&D spending yet delay after delay on the future EV investment. See the problem there yet? Like I said, just endless excuses. 

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Mercedes sells a ton of high priced Chevrolet  (Im trolling...BUT,  Mercedes DOES sell a ton of "entry level" bullshyte cars and CUVs) 

    These are badge snobs that wouldnt be caught dead in lower badged cars, especially from Detroit and really couldnt afford the high dollar M-B cars.  These are the cars Mercedes has pushed on us for the last 20-25 years. From the late 1990s. 

    You are what you market and sell. Ive said this before about me not wanting Cadillac to move downmarket...

    Mercedes has made its bed. Its time for Mercedes to sleep in it. 

    That Celestiq...with a 200 000 dollar price tag. 

    It will be handbuilt, right?

    That is REAL luxury territory.  At that price point and manufacturing process, that equates to Cadillac KNOWING what it NEEDS to do NOT to phoque it up. THAT means that the technology behind it WILL be state of the art. The build quality and quality of the luxury materials WILL be worthy of that 200 000 dollar price tag. 

    How do I know this to be true?  Because MY guess is as good as any other's.

    Well...

    1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

    2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

    3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

    North Americans are starving for a high priced Cadillac.

    We have seen the effect with some very desirable concepts Cadillac has shown us but havent got the balls to actually give us. Im betting the Celestiq wont dissapoint. 

    Just my gut feeling. 

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
    • Agree 2
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    14 hours ago, balthazar said:

    In the U.S. tho, mercedes cannot seem to stay above / put distance between their ATPs and those of the 'Acura-competitor'; Cadillac.

    "Mercedes fans should be outraged."
    - - - - -

    RE the post above mine; what happened to "6.2" billion???
    Note also that not only did Q4 profit drop by a massive 22%, MB is stating it will likely be years before they return to previous margin levels.
    AND that one way they intend to achieve that is to 'build less complex cars'.

    "Mercedes fans should be outraged."

    I don't care about brand ATP's.  If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.  I would hate if it Mercedes was just 2 sedans and 4 SUV's like a lot of luxury brands are.  

    Google search said 6.2 billion which was before their taxes and right off I think.  in 2020 I imagine Daimler will be lucky to just turn profit, as long as they stay profitable this year I think they are in great shape when the economy rebounds and EV demand rises.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    5 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

    @smk4565-No offense but you seriously have to know when to walk away. You started this nonsense with you weak trolling (which is probably because Benz keeps delaying their EV offerings) and now you have backstepped so many times, offering excuses for Daimler that you simply won’t do for domestics, you don’t even know what your core argument is anymore. Fact is that Benz has had just as many flops and failures as Cadillac and they have been costlier to boot (see Maybach). Maybe offering something of actual substance would be the best course of action for the future here. 

    All that R&D spending yet delay after delay on the future EV investment. See the problem there yet? Like I said, just endless excuses. 

    They haven't delayed anything.  They are selling the EQ C in Europe, they aren't selling it in the USA because they need to sell 100% of the units they build in Europe to try to beat the C02 threshold and avoid a billion or multi billion euro  fine.  Europe has imposed C02 standards that basically want auto fleets to be Prius level emissions or face fines.  That is also why they introduced 4 or 5 plug-in hybrids last month.  EQ A, B, S, E all are pretty deep in development.   Sure it would be nice to have them now, but they have to get the product right, and plus with cheap gas and a a really good inline six mild hybrid engine and inline 4 hybrids, a lot of buyers are going to choose that over EV.

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I don't care about brand ATP's.  If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.  I would hate if it Mercedes was just 2 sedans and 4 SUV's like a lot of luxury brands are.  

    Google search said 6.2 billion which was before their taxes and right off I think.  in 2020 I imagine Daimler will be lucky to just turn profit, as long as they stay profitable this year I think they are in great shape when the economy rebounds and EV demand rises.

    Instead of a random Google Search why not as I did QUOTE Daimler's actual report.

    So then you are going to admit and accept that Mercdes-Benz is an equal to Toyota, Chevrolet, etc. in selling auto's in all market levels and not a Luxury only auto company.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    North Americans are starving for a high priced Cadillac.

    We have seen the effect with some very desirable concepts Cadillac has shown us but havent got the balls to actually give us. Im betting the Celestiq wont dissapoint. 

    Just my gut feeling. 

     

     

     

    Are they?  The Escalade sells well on name and the fact that GM has strong full size truck buyer pool, from Silverado, Tahoe, Yukon, etc.  And credit to them for cornering that market and FCA isn't even there and Ford they really squashed in full size SUV's the past 10 years.  Aside from Escalade, North Americans have not shown up for any high priced Cadillacs in the past 30 years.

    14 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Instead of a random Google Search why not as I did QUOTE Daimler's actual report.

    So then you are going to admit and accept that Mercdes-Benz is an equal to Toyota, Chevrolet, etc. in selling auto's in all market levels and not a Luxury only auto company.

    They don't sell in all levels, Mercedes doesn't have sub $20,000 product, just like Toyota/GM don't have $100k+ product.   And I am not opposed to them selling in all market levels, the Corvette sits on the same lot as commercial vans and Spark and Sonic sub-compacts and no one cares, and Corvette fans still love it.  Because what a Spark or Express van is has zero impact on what a Corvette is.  Just like what the A-class is has zero impact on what the G-wagen or S-class are.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Are they?

    Oh yes they are!!!

    Cadillac is selling in nice numbers. Even in North America. Cadillac has/had many sedans in their line-up and not too many CUVs. Now that they culled a few of those sedans and upped their CUV line-up...numbers will go up.

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The Escalade sells well on name and the fact that GM has strong full size truck buyer pool, from Silverado, Tahoe, Yukon, etc.  And credit to them for cornering that market

    Wel...yeah!

    But the sentence before...those two words asking rhetorically and stupidly "are they?" well...

    YOU SAID IT YOURSELF!!!

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    The Escalade sells well on name

     

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Aside from Escalade, North Americans have not shown up for any high priced Cadillacs in the past 30 years.

    That is because Cadillac hasnt really given the people any high priced products to buy to begin with...

    And the very few that had high price tags, Cadillac botched them...this is true.

    BUT...the Escalade is 1 high priced Caddy that is NOT botched.

    The "V" cars are not botched either.   And enough "V" product has entered the market that people have taken notice. Except these are sedans...   People dont buy sedans in high numbers anymore.   Mercedes has seen those sedan numbers drop too...

    But.. I repeat my post

    5 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

    2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

    3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

    And funny though...   you seem to defend Mercedes by NOT caring about ATPs...but ATPs DEFINE the  luxury market...

    If Cadillac sells higher priced vehicles than Mercedes does on a whole...what conclusion do YOU have?

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

     If Mercedes wants to sell A-classes and Metris ands then good for them, give consumers more choice and put more good product out there.

     YOU already answered that...

    Image result for mercedes a class

     

    THAT is luxury to you?

    Dude...is or isnt Mercedes luxury?  (IN NORTH AMERICA)

    Because if these are the kinds of cars Mercedes wants to peddle to North Americans and people are buying these...and Cadillac ends up selling MORE higher priced cars than Mercedes does...than YOU already have your answer.

    YOU may not like the answer and be blind to reality...and THAT is OK too... but you or Mercedes aint foolin' me.

    PS:  

    I saw a family get out of a Metris the other day. The first thing that came to my mind is this:

    Yup....PURE luxury... That would be a Ford van

    Image result for cheaper by the dozen family van

    Chevy and GMC have  versions of those too.  

    Again...if YOU think selling vehicles where the market has Chevy and Ford as competitors is selling luxury...IVE GOT SOMETHING TO SELL YOU

    Image result for Ive got a bridge to sell you

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Escalade does well but it starts at $75k and loaded out is $100k.  A $200k start price is 2.5 times higher.  Celestique is supposed to start at $200k so with options we could be in the $220-250 range.  

    But bring it on, competition is good for the industry and the consumer.   Before the CT6 came out, all the Cadillac fans rejoiced that the S-class killer was here, and then the CT6 had to be price cut down to $55k, never competed with the S-class and after 4-5 years it is gone. Now they want to go 4 times more than the price of a CT6, I don't see how that works.  People aren't going to pay Bentley Money for a Cadillac, it makes as much sense as Chevy selling a $130,000 Impala or Kia selling a $125,000 K900.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Before the CT6 came out, all the Cadillac fans rejoiced that the S-class killer was here, and then the CT6 had to be price cut down to $55k

    because the CT6 was said to be a high priced Cadillac.  And a top dog Cadillac at that.  

    The potential buyers and fanbois all thought that this was THE Cadillac. 

    But it wasnt. The interior quality of materials were underwhelming.  THAT is why Johan right away said that this was NOT a top dog Cadillac.  It was not his project car. He inherited it. It was a project car done at the time of the bankruptcy and whether the bankruptcy had an impact on the cheapened interior or was it business as usual bean counting...the CT6 was NOT that vehicle. 

    And the fans and the buyers saw it right away...

    15 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Now they want to go 4 times more than the price of a CT6, I don't see how that works.  People aren't going to pay Bentley Money for a Cadillac,

    But they will. 

    The Celestiq...for the LAST time...does NOT look like a project going down the road of what made Cadillac fail...

    1. Seeing how the Corvette engineering team was focused on the project at hand and gave us an unbelievable C8 Stingray to start with and other trims to follow. I see Cadillac engineers to do the same with not only the Celestiq but withb the other models too.

    2. Seeing the new CT4-V and CT-5-V in person and how the interior is tight and the materials are worthy of REAL Cadillacs, I KNOW GM and Cadillac FINALLY got the message...and things are only going to get better with the EV Cadillacs going forward.

    3. Maybe some of us are not really feeling the new Escalade on the outside, but on the inside, its very worthy of a REAL Cadillac. I think it even surpasses the high dollar Mercedes cars.  Side note, at the Montreal Auto Show...the new CT4 V and CT5 V cars were there, but NOBODY was interested in them, (which points out that sedans are dead) but there was a line-up at the Escalade. Millennials, middle-aged like myself and boomers...  I think the Escalade UNITES us all. To which I  will assume the Celestiq will do the same as in... 

     

    The people crooned over the Ciel...and the Ciel would have been a 200 000 dollar price tagged car. if not more. People are STILL talking about the Ciel. The Ciel was a concept that was 15 years ago...

    Shyte..people still croon over the Sixteen 20 years ago. 

    All the Ciel and Sixteen had to do is just be...Cadillac and they'd sell like hot cakes with Bentley and Rolls price tags...

    All the CT6 had to do...is just be a WORTHY Cadillac. It was not. 

    The Celestiq WILL be a worthy Cadillac.  Nothing shows that Cadillac in 2020 will NOT be doing things right. This is a game that Cadillac finally ended. Cadillac just started a new game. 

    YOU got to get off this habit of yours. 

    Worry about Mercedes. Because Mercedes in 2020 is going down a road that Cadillac once took. 

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    17 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    it makes as much sense as Chevy selling a $130,000

    Oh...That is coming shortly.  Be careful what you wish for. 

    Its called the Corvette C8 with  trims and performance levels higher than that of the base Stingray. And of course a higher price tag.  And seeing that the highest priced C8 Stingray reaches almost 100 000...you just KNOW that the other two projected C8 Corvettes will reach and probably surpass 130 000.  

    And yes...those Vettes WILL sell at that price.    

    GM aint phoquing around anymore. 

    You aint seeing that?

    Im giving you a heads up. Maybe you should look into it more closely.

     

     

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Since the CT4 and the CT5 are already out, will there be a replacement for the CT6 and make it at least as good as the Escalade?  (Yes I know that CT6 production ended about 60 days ago.)

    • Agree 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    11 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Since the CT4 and the CT5 are already out, will there be a replacement for the CT6 and make it at least as good as the Escalade?  (Yes I know that CT6 production ended about 60 days ago.)

    Could it be that the CT cars get replaced with EV names?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    14 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Oh...That is coming shortly.  Be careful what you wish for. 

    Its called the Corvette C8 with  trims and performance levels higher than that of the base Stingray. And of course a higher price tag.  And seeing that the highest priced C8 Stingray reaches almost 100 000...you just KNOW that the other two projected C8 Corvettes will reach and probably surpass 130 000.  

    And yes...those Vettes WILL sell at that price.    

    GM aint phoquing around anymore. 

    You aint seeing that?

    Im giving you a heads up. Maybe you should look into it more closely.

     

     

    I said a Chevy sedan.  I know what a C8 costs and I also said for years there should be a sports car above the Corvette.  The C8 Stingray is slower around the Nurburgring than an AMG GT 4-door which is like a 4600 lb sedan.  You can’t put elite performance in a car for $60-100k.  Nor should a Corvette cost more than that, this the reason GM should build something better than a Corvette.

      It is okay for the Corvette to be the best sports car on market in the $60-100k range and then there be something else.  I don’t get the reason why GM fans don’t want GM to build a sports car better than the Corvette.

    My point on Cadillac is in the past they have not delivered, I don’t know why this time around would be any different.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    8 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    My point on Cadillac is in the past they have not delivered, I don’t know why this time around would be any different.

    While that would be true if we still had the same board and CEO now. Mary has proven that she is moving forward with reinventing GM and going EV and she has said recently as posted on LinkedIn that GM needs to hit the points that customers are complaining about. 

    This makes me think that a $200,000 EV Sedan could very well be way better than anything anyone else has produced in a long time. This includes the S-class Maybach, Royals Royce, etc.

    We know from Lemans racing that when the US companies want to step up, they can put forth competing products. Maybe this is the time that Cadillac truly does produce a worthy 6 figure sedan.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Maybe but GM changes management every 5 years and Johan was supposed to be the savior of Cadillac and that didn’t happen either.

    Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

    Even if they can sell 5,000 super expensive Cadillacs a year that isn’t going to move the needle. And even worldwide I doubt they hit 5,000 sales per year.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    10 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Maybe but GM changes management every 5 years and Johan was supposed to be the savior of Cadillac and that didn’t happen either.

    Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

    Even if they can sell 5,000 super expensive Cadillacs a year that isn’t going to move the needle. And even worldwide I doubt they hit 5,000 sales per year.

    Yet you say 5,000 Maybachs are big profit for MB, so why not for GM doing the same thing.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    51 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Maybach is a trim level though.

    Yes on top of the S-class so maybe 10,000 get sold, still profit and Cadillac can do that too. Nothing to say they cannot till they try and if they do go cheap on the inside then you will have every right to say " I told you so" YET till they try you really have no clue if it will succeed or not.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Really what is important here is can GM beat the Tesla Model 3 or whatever Electric RAV4 or CRV come out.  That is the meat of the market, are these Chevy EV’s going to heat Toyota or Tesla who have strong reputation and buyer loyalty.

    This is the real issue for GM.  Toyota did not have the 70s and 80s and 90s be a total cluster***k like GM did.  Tesla never went through BK like GM did.  GM needs to convince everyone born after 1980  that they have the best vehicles (especially EVs) bar none.  Now there will be a struggle (CR dislikes most things GM going back about 50 years or so), but it must be done where it matters:  The Equinox EV and its smaller and larger brethren must be better than Toyota and Tesla (and a better value!), otherwise GM is woefully screwed for the next generation or two.

    • Thanks 1
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • google-news-icon.png



  • google-news-icon.png

  • Subscribe to Cheers & Gears

    Cheers and Gears Logo

    Since 2001 we've brought you real content and honest opinions, not AI-generated stuff with no feeling or opinions influenced by the manufacturers.

    Please consider subscribing. Subscriptions can be as little as $1.75 a month, and a paid subscription drops most ads.*
     

    You can view subscription options here.

    *a very limited number of ads contain special coupon deals for our members and will show

  • Community Hive Community Hive

    Community Hive allows you to follow your favorite communities all in one place.

    Follow on Community Hive
  • Similar Content

  • Posts

    • MECHANICAL PHOTOS The engine bay is neatly arranged as it typically is in GM products, with dipsticks, reservoirs, and an easy to reach battery ... someone would have had to help me find the turbocharger One can see 3 exhaust manifold passages below the engine shroud The engine placard says 1.3 liters and long running OBD II diagnostics - - - - - END OF PHOTOS
    • INTERIOR PHOTOS This is what the driver sees upon entering and the light switches are in their own small panel (set to auto) This is the view from the passenger's door and this provides a good view of the outlets above and buttons below the cubby space at the front of the console The dashboard is very sensibly arranged, easy to learn, and easy on the eyes ... note several push buttons for drive mode, traction, etc. right ahead of the shift lever and various plugs right below the climate control panel.  The touch screen is engaged and the vents above the center stack provide excellent air circulation. This shows typical Chevrolet gauge graphics, a fuel gauge with graphic bars, and an always useful coolant temperature gauge.  Key lights for driving modes (traction, following distance, etc.) are above the graphic display box between the 2 round gauges. This is the typical graphic box in various Chevrolets and, once it has been learned, toggling between trip, vehicle, and eco. becomes easy.  Trip has the most options while eco. rarely needs to be used.  To the left of the odometer is the graphic which shows AWD or 2WD. Cubby hole for phone, outlets for plugs, and push button controls (partial, at the right) sensibly arranged as well as honeycomb hatch to look like it could have been fabric Rear seat legroom appears to be respectable.  The two-tone effect on the fabric is fairly nice and there are map pockets behind both front seats. This shows the rearward view from the driver's seat which would make lane change and parking assists helpful The rear seats follow a "60-40" (long running car jargon) split back, a courtesy lamp, and a groove for the rear cover (which was not present in the vehicle) This gives an idea of the cargo space with the rear seats in their upright position as well as 2 usable storage wells at each side of the rear cargo area
    • EXTERIOR PHOTOS The side view shows the more compact shape and the sheet metal accents, attractive alloy wheels, and a roof rack  The angled rear view shows taillamps which look fairly true-to-form for Chevrolet, but the liftgate is slightly heavy to pull up and push back down ... a person also has to make sure it's fully shut The angled front view shows attractive (LED) lighting
    • Seems Kia will have a faster model above the GT-Line EV9, expected to be over 600 HP and Torque. Kia is presenting a great plan. Kia CEO Investor Day Kia presents 2030 roadmap to become global sustainable mobility leader
    • Yeah, yard guy was out about 3 weeks ago, we discussed plans for this year...started this week since I was on vacation last week...the front hadn't grown much, the back was getting big in places...lots of rain this Spring.  Trees just started blooming in the last week..
  • Who's Online (See full list)

    • There are no registered users currently online
  • My Clubs

×
×
  • Create New...

Hey there, we noticed you're using an ad-blocker. We're a small site that is supported by ads or subscriptions. We rely on these to pay for server costs and vehicle reviews.  Please consider whitelisting us in your ad-blocker, or if you really like what you see, you can pick up one of our subscriptions for just $1.75 a month or $15 a year. It may not seem like a lot, but it goes a long way to help support real, honest content, that isn't generated by an AI bot.

See you out there.

Drew
Editor-in-Chief

Write what you are looking for and press enter or click the search icon to begin your search

Change privacy settings