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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    By William Maley •

    The Great Disappearance of Affordable American Cars

      And why that may pose a problem

    It is already tough for a number of people to afford a new vehicle as the average transaction price keeps rising. According to Kelly Blue Book, the average transaction price for November rose 2.1 percent to $36,978. This isn't being helped by American automakers deciding to stop producing cars due to changing consumer tastes. This was brought to light last week when General Motors announced that it would be cutting a number of cars including the Chevrolet Cruze. Most automakers and dealers believe consumers will move towards utility vehicles, but some dealers believe that consumers may defect from American automakers because they don't offer the vehicle they are looking for.

    Chad Martin, a Bowling Green, Ky., dealer tells Automotive News that consumers feel the "affordability pinch" when automakers decide to drop cars to focus more on utility vehicles. For the most part, consumers "generally seem to be shopping for a particular type of vehicle, such as compact cars." Remove them out of your lineup and consumers are likely going to look elsewhere.

    "What this is going to mean is, you're going to see a somewhat higher defection rate because you don't have the product lineup that particular consumer wants," said Martin.

    Another big hurdle facing consumers who want to stick with the domestics is pricing. Martin explained that there is more than a $5,000 difference in pricing between compact crossovers and compact sedans. 

    Obviously, the consumer is going to have to absorb that $5,000 difference," said Martin.

    The numbers from Kelly Blue Book tell the story.

    • Compact Car Average Transaction Price: $20,458
    • Subcompact Crossover/SUV Average Transaction Price: $24,210
    • Compact Crossover/SUV Average Transaction Price: $28,765

    Jeremy Acevedo, Edmunds' manager of industry analysis agrees with the sentiment said by some dealers that consumers loyal to a segment may look elsewhere.

    "It's easy for shoppers to move from a Cavalier to a Cobalt to a Cruze. But it's a whole different ballgame moving from a car to an SUV."

    Source: Automotive News (Subscription Required)

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    G. David Felt

    I am wondering if we will see new affordable CUVs in the subcompact segment from GM that are VOLT powertrain or EVs.

    I want to believe that GM is not going to truly abandon people looking for that 15-25K dollar auto.

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    G. David Felt
    Just now, ccap41 said:

    Volt powertrain and affordable haven't gone hand-in-hand yet. I don't see it coming too soon. 

    I expect a Volt Powertrain CUV to show up this year and then as they build, expand to other auto's while lower cost. I can honestly say I just do not understand how GM has not had a subcompact and compact plugin hybrid using this powertrain yet. Truly losing sales to Toyota.

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    smk4565

    A Volt SUV would be $40k base, look at what other SUV’s cost.   Most car makers don’t care about the entry level, they want to sell high margin SUV’s only.  Then they can cut the workforce that builds the cheap cars and save even more money.

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    Drew Dowdell
    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    Volt powertrain and affordable haven't gone hand-in-hand yet. I don't see it coming too soon. 

    There is nothing technologically remarkable about the drive part of the Volt's powertrain, it's all in the batteries.  

    14 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    A Volt SUV would be $40k base, look at what other SUV’s cost.   Most car makers don’t care about the entry level, they want to sell high margin SUV’s only.  Then they can cut the workforce that builds the cheap cars and save even more money.

    A Niro PHEV is $28.2k base and $36k absolutely loaded.  It should be the template for a Volt crossover.   The Volt would be a bit more expensive than the Niro though as it has more batteries and range.

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    ccap41
    18 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    There is nothing technologically remarkable about the drive part of the Volt's powertrain, it's all in the batteries. 

    Wouldn't that be a part of the system, as a whole? 

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    Drew Dowdell
    Just now, ccap41 said:

    Wouldn't that be a part of the system, as a whole? 

    Not really, no. The batteries can be increased or decreased in size as much as cost and space allow.  Chevy could drop the price of the Volt by making a LowVolt version with half the battery.  It would probably take $5k off the price in exchange for a 25+ mile EV range instead of a 50+ mile one.  That would put it pretty much in line with the Pruis Prime in both range and cost. 

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    riviera74

    The other problem with the lack of affordable small cars is that this part of the market is owned by Toyota, Honda and Hyundai/KIA.  Should GM and Ford do better? Yes, but those sales are not what they were five or ten years ago.

    A Volt CUV would be fantastic though.

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    frogger
    27 minutes ago, A Horse With No Name said:

    How many states have legalized weed and do you live in one of them?

    Haha Canada has legalized weed but my vape has been in the basement somewhere for about a decade.  As bland as the Cruze is, it is still more palatable to me than a Trax.

     

     

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    G. David Felt
    37 minutes ago, frogger said:

    Haha Canada has legalized weed but my vape has been in the basement somewhere for about a decade.  As bland as the Cruze is, it is still more palatable to me than a Trax.

    Hail Canada, a Land we export weed too! :CanadaEmoticon:

    cheech and chong weed GIF

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    frogger
    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Hail Canada, a Land we export weed too! :CanadaEmoticon:

    cheech and chong weed GIF

    My wife had a weed stock ETF for about 4 months this year, it went up 20% in that time but has gone down since legalization went national and suppliers had trouble fulfilling.  So many greenhouses have converted or are in the midst of being converted..

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    G. David Felt
    30 minutes ago, frogger said:

    My wife had a weed stock ETF for about 4 months this year, it went up 20% in that time but has gone down since legalization went national and suppliers had trouble fulfilling.  So many greenhouses have converted or are in the midst of being converted..

    Lots of growth ahead I expect. LOL

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    ocnblu

    This is a real problem.  The domestics NEVER paid much attention to compacts and subcompacts.  The Japanese and Koreans own that market already, and now it will only entrench foreign automakers even more into U.S. culture... because the cars they build are introductory... if they can build a good, cheap car, then they have a customer who will check back with them first... for their subsequent vehicular needs.  Then there are those that have only bought small cars, even as their incomes grow.  These people are being kicked to the curb by FCA, GM and Ford... the foundation for a bleak future.  High-priced electrics with built-in range anxiety are not the answer.

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    G. David Felt
    41 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    This is a real problem.  The domestics NEVER paid much attention to compacts and subcompacts.  The Japanese and Koreans own that market already, and now it will only entrench foreign automakers even more into U.S. culture... because the cars they build are introductory... if they can build a good, cheap car, then they have a customer who will check back with them first... for their subsequent vehicular needs.  Then there are those that have only bought small cars, even as their incomes grow.  These people are being kicked to the curb by FCA, GM and Ford... the foundation for a bleak future.  High-priced electrics with built-in range anxiety are not the answer.

    Sounds like you have been drinking the MB Koolaide where one company will rule it all from entry to ultra luxury.

    We are a Multicultural Society of Global Products Globally sold and the days of US Empire building are gone along with the English Empire and everyone else that thinks singularly in the world.

    Globally is the planet you live on.

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    ocnblu
    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Sounds like you have been drinking the MB Koolaide where one company will rule it all from entry to ultra luxury.

    We are a Multicultural Society of Global Products Globally sold and the days of US Empire building are gone along with the English Empire and everyone else that thinks singularly in the world.

    Globally is the planet you live on.

    So sick of your BS, Felt.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    riviera74
    2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    This is a real problem.  The domestics NEVER paid much attention to compacts and subcompacts.  The Japanese and Koreans own that market already, and now it will only entrench foreign automakers even more into U.S. culture... because the cars they build are introductory... if they can build a good, cheap car, then they have a customer who will check back with them first... for their subsequent vehicular needs.  Then there are those that have only bought small cars, even as their incomes grow.  These people are being kicked to the curb by FCA, GM and Ford... the foundation for a bleak future.  High-priced electrics with built-in range anxiety are not the answer.

    Not true.  The domestics did build compacts and subcompacts.  They just never put the effort into them that Japan Inc and Korea Inc did for one simple reason:  in the 1970s small cars are mostly what they built domestically and then they exported small cars to the USA.  Corolla and Civic and the Mazda 3 and the Sentra and the small Hyundai/KIA cars ARE their bread and butter.  That has not been true of the domestics since the 1920s.  The domestics want you to buy large sedans and pickup trucks for the high margins.  This is why the domestics MAY have a bleak future: GM and Ford and FCA want margins and not necessarily small car buyers since those buyers do not fill the coffers anywhere nearly as well as BOF trucks and midsize CUVs (and at one time, large sedans).

    Worse yet, it has not been proven that a Cruze driver buys an Impala or Traverse in 5-7 years.  So the domestics say: why bother?

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    ocnblu
    2 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Not true.  The domestics did build compacts and subcompacts.  They just never put the effort into them that Japan Inc and Korea Inc did for one simple reason:  in the 1970s small cars are mostly what they built domestically and then they exported small cars to the USA.  Corolla and Civic and the Mazda 3 and the Sentra and the small Hyundai/KIA cars ARE their bread and butter.  That has not been true of the domestics since the 1920s.  The domestics want you to buy large sedans and pickup trucks for the high margins.  This is why the domestics MAY have a bleak future: GM and Ford and FCA want margins and not necessarily small car buyers since those buyers do not fill the coffers anywhere nearly as well as BOF trucks and midsize CUVs (and at one time, large sedans).

    Worse yet, it has not been proven that a Cruze driver buys an Impala or Traverse in 5-7 years.  So the domestics say: why bother?

    "Not true" and then you proceed to agree with everything I said.  WTH are you talking abote?

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    Suaviloquent

    Certain automakers do some things better. The domestic makes nowadays are expected to make massive profits in a growth and peak economic cycle.

    But even truck sales are tied to housing starts and other things. In a bad economy, I’m pretty sure that GM Ford and FCA are not making cars anymore because even now they're not viable

    And now they all have some form of cheaper pickup or base model utility that is better equipped tech wise (not luxo power everything) than the high trim cars sold 10 yrs ago

     

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    daves87rs
    On 12/4/2018 at 7:15 PM, ocnblu said:

    This is a real problem.  The domestics NEVER paid much attention to compacts and subcompacts.  The Japanese and Koreans own that market already, and now it will only entrench foreign automakers even more into U.S. culture... because the cars they build are introductory... if they can build a good, cheap car, then they have a customer who will check back with them first... for their subsequent vehicular needs.  Then there are those that have only bought small cars, even as their incomes grow.  These people are being kicked to the curb by FCA, GM and Ford... the foundation for a bleak future.  High-priced electrics with built-in range anxiety are not the answer.

    Minus the very last part (they will be part of it) Ocn is pretty much right on. GM is pulling a bonehead move dumping the Cruze when the Sonic and the Spark make more sense to dump. Offer different level of the Cruze base model to make up for the loss of the tiny cars-ans cover a larger range of customers.

    Then, only after they grow with you-they can jump into other products. Kia is already gaining ground-and the Chinese are not far behind ......

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    G. David Felt
    12 hours ago, daves87rs said:

    Minus the very last part (they will be part of it) Ocn is pretty much right on. GM is pulling a bonehead move dumping the Cruze when the Sonic and the Spark make more sense to dump. Offer different level of the Cruze base model to make up for the loss of the tiny cars-ans cover a larger range of customers.

    Then, only after they grow with you-they can jump into other products. Kia is already gaining ground-and the Chinese are not far behind ......

    Yet none of us really know the long range roll out of new auto's.

    GM could very well have a segment leading Cruze size EV that will beat them all with far less maintenance required, 300 mile range being more than enough for going to and from work and running errands with the convenience of plugging it in at night at home than running down to the dirty smelly gas station, standing out in the cold and rain or heat of the south.

    GM is killing off auto's that are selling poorly, but we have not seen the full poker hand yet of what EVs they will introduce that can possibly replace them.

    I believe GM will have like product that are hybrids or pure electric that will more than make up for the loss of these auto's.

    Right now not killing off the Sonic and Spark is a Smart move to keep them in that segment when the cost of Batteries is still very high and density is not there yet for such a small package.

    Solid State batteries such as the breakthroughs that have happened this year alone, 

    383817a1-honda-fluoride-ion-battery-1.jp

    https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/honda-announces-fluoride-ion-battery-breakthrough-allow-batteries-10x-energy-density/

     

    So while we have these technologies that are coming, we also still have breakthroughs in traditional battery design also.

    https://insideevs.com/did-u-of-m-come-up-with-solid-state-battery-breakthrough/

    University of Michigan just released their details on how they can build a stabalized Li battery pack that takes only 15% of the normal time to charge. That is a huge decrease in charging times when we know that Li heats up and can explode when charged too fast without proper cooling. Finding a way to reduce charge times on existing batteries till solid state goes into production is great.

    Way to look at this is a normal EV charging at home in 8hrs now only takes 15% of that time or 1hr 20 min.

    Skateboard concept Cruze EV that has way more interior room, far less maintenance with recharging you could do from home will sell well to the masses.

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    balthazar
    36 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    ...with the convenience of plugging it in at night at home than running down to the dirty smelly gas station, standing out in the cold and rain or heat of the south.

    "dirty-smelly" lol.
    This tangible issue here is, whereas gas stations are widespread and you go to them, charging at home certainly doesn't work for everyone. My truck parks outside- I'd have to run a 25' cord to it, snake it out behind the garage door track, loop it around the other car parked outside, unplug the outlet end in case it rains, pick it up when I mow, etc. I don't find that "convenient".
    A lot of older homes have no garage and no outside outlets. Many inner city residents (you know; another one of the supposed 'target' buyers), park on the street; they're not really supposed to lay a cord across the sidewalk, are they? What if they only find a parking spot 4 doors down the street? Then there are apartment / high rise dwellers that park in lots (or decks) with no provisions to plug in. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure- it's not ready yet. No responsible OEM is going to kill an IC small car & replace it whole hog with an EV, because buyers aren't ready right now, because the infrastructure isn't. Yet.
    The breathlessness some folk talk about the tsunami of EVs cars that are going to wipe out ICs inside of 10 years simply isn't keeping touch with reality. There's the fantasy vision of the Brave New World, then there is the 'dirty smelly' reality version.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Robert Hall

    A few minutes ago...my Jeep was down to a quarter of a tank.  Went out on the main street outside my neighborhood--5 stations within a mile or so to choose from...Valero, Sunoco, Shell, BP, Chevron.  Went to Shell.  Fill up took maybe 6-8 minutes.   It will be a while until recharging has that level of convenience.  Yes, it was cold outside--30 degrees, but being an Ohio native, I have winter clothes..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    G. David Felt
    34 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    "dirty-smelly" lol.
    This tangible issue here is, whereas gas stations are widespread and you go to them, charging at home certainly doesn't work for everyone. My truck parks outside- I'd have to run a 25' cord to it, snake it out behind the garage door track, loop it around the other car parked outside, unplug the outlet end in case it rains, pick it up when I mow, etc. I don't find that "convenient".
    A lot of older homes have no garage and no outside outlets. Many inner city residents (you know; another one of the supposed 'target' buyers), park on the street; they're not really supposed to lay a cord across the sidewalk, are they? What if they only find a parking spot 4 doors down the street? Then there are apartment / high rise dwellers that park in lots (or decks) with no provisions to plug in. Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure- it's not ready yet. No responsible OEM is going to kill an IC small car & replace it whole hog with an EV, because buyers aren't ready right now, because the infrastructure isn't. Yet.
    The breathlessness some folk talk about the tsunami of EVs cars that are going to wipe out ICs inside of 10 years simply isn't keeping touch with reality. There's the fantasy vision of the Brave New World, then there is the 'dirty smelly' reality version.

    Valid points made, but then time will eventually get everything changed over and you can also have installed a wireless charging pad that has nothing to pickup or deal with, drive your auto over it on top of the pad at your house and go into the house. The auto will recharge on it's own.

    Always solutions to every exception or challenge. Yes not everyone can afford it yet and it will take time to get out to everyone, but all new constructions on the west coast requires chargers including homes and for old homes with or without garages, local PSE has free chargers they will come out and install with a 35 foot charging cord. so easy to not have to worry about for some.

    I understand where your coming from. I would think a pickup truck that meets your needs with all the torque an EV can provide where you drive home and park in your designated spot and the wireless pad recharges it to keep you full would be nice and one less thing to have to deal with. 

    Always full tank.

    @Robert Hall Having an EV jeep SUV that has a 400 mile range, wireless pad in your designated parking spot so it always recharges and you always have a full tank of electrons would be nice when you leave the house.

    Solutions can always be done, technology has proven that.

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    balthazar
    11 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Valid points made, but then time will eventually get everything changed over and you can also have installed a wireless charging pad that has nothing to pickup or deal with, drive your auto over it on top of the pad at your house and go into the house. The auto will recharge on it's own.

    Always solutions to every exception or challenge.

    How are people who park in public spaces (parking lots, decks, or on the street) supposed to have a charging pad? What do they do when they come home and someone else is parked over it? What happens to the pad when a plow comes by? Or the pavement heaves beneath it? Or someone steals it? Are people supposed to take this pad in & out when they want to charge? That's just a larger 'cord'- same points apply.

    As for an EV truck, I'm not paying $70 grand for a work truck. That's lunacy.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Robert Hall
    1 hour ago, balthazar said:

     

    As for an EV truck, I'm not paying $70 grand for a work truck. That's lunacy.

    Good point, but the Chevy HD, GMC HD, Ford Super Duty, etc are at the price and beyond already..

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    G. David Felt
    6 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    How are people who park in public spaces (parking lots, decks, or on the street) supposed to have a charging pad? What do they do when they come home and someone else is parked over it? What happens to the pad when a plow comes by? Or the pavement heaves beneath it? Or someone steals it? Are people supposed to take this pad in & out when they want to charge? That's just a larger 'cord'- same points apply.

    As for an EV truck, I'm not paying $70 grand for a work truck. That's lunacy.

    Per already being done for people who live in the inner city, pads are part of the cement parking spots in buildings, so nothing to mess up, just pull in and park.

    On the city streets, the parking spots are marked that have wifi charging, you just pull over and park. No problems with plowing or anything else, these are either installed when new construction happens or retrofit by PSE and the city to have a wide assortment of charging spots for EVs.

    Just a matter of looking at the needs of the people and planning for it. I posted about the Nissan version of wireless charging in the city back in 2016 here:

    It is now very common in Japan and Nissan has been very active in building out wireless charging on the west coast. Time is all it takes to get the technology spread.

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    balthazar
    1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

    Good point, but the Chevy HD, Ford Super Duty, etc are at the price and beyond already...

    Nooo; an '18 2500HD starts at $34K, not $70K.
    You can buy a crew cab, 4WD LTZ for $53K.
    Rivian is allegedly $65K, which means more like $70K.

    Edited by balthazar
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    Robert Hall
    19 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Nooo; an '18 2500HD starts at $34K, not $70K.
    You can buy a crew cab, 4WD LTZ for $53K.
    Rivian is allegedly $65K, which means more like $70K.

     The loaded 2500HDs and Ford Platinums and Limiteds, etc are way up there though...

    For instance, the local GMC dealer has 7 Sierra 2500 crew cabs in stock--ranging from 59k to 74k.   The local Chevy dealer has two Chevy 3500 HDs--$68 and $69k. 

    Though I don't see the Rivian competing with those bloated monster trucks.  <marketing> It's an urban 'lifestyle vehicle' for active adults who go in the outdoors on the weekends... </marketing>

    Edited by Robert Hall
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    balthazar

    Talk to me when you can get a Rivian 'way down there' at $50K.

    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Per already being done for people who live in the inner city, pads are part of the cement parking spots in buildings, so nothing to mess up, just pull in and park.

    On the city streets, the parking spots are marked that have wifi charging, you just pull over and park. No problems with plowing or anything else.

    Quick google image search gave me this :

    Screen Shot 2018-12-08 at 4.13.04 PM.png

    Pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop-pop goes the snow plow.
    I'm sure there are other options, and more coming. But the fact remains that NOW, if I lived in the city and had to park on the street in various spots, an EV is NOT going to work for me. That's inarguable.

    Edited by balthazar
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    riviera74

    An EV will not work for a lot of people right now.  But in 2030, who knows?  Uber and Lyft may replace private car ownership in a lot of large dense cities by then.  Where I live, not necessarily.

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    ocnblu

    Right.  When a crew cab Colorado Z71 is the same price or less than a Bolt while being way more versatile, and the Colorado sells at a profit while the Bolt sells at a yuge loss, it should lead us to question how this plan is going to work.  Tax breaks are not sustainable to force people to change to the more expensive option. Then you have the problem of standardization of chargers.  There needs to be a uniform type of charging apparatus.  All these fiefdoms competing with each other simply muddy the waters.

    Edited by ocnblu
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This image above pretty much wraps up what I came up with for leasing versus buying an EV and there was just one last thing to consider, technology. Battery Technology, controller boards and software are all in their infancy and as such will be probably changing greatly over the next few years. Do I take on the risk of buying and having the OEM stop updates to my EV or do I lease and go with trading it in and getting current technology in a new EV two or three years later? 2023 was an explosive year for auto companies as everyone was pushing to get an EV on the marketplace. Some made it with less than stellar results and others delivered. Trucks, SUVs and cars pretty much allowed one to have a selection of what style of EV they wanted. For my wife and I we had already decided to ignore the cars and focus on the SUVs and Trucks. With that in mind we made up the following list of EV companies to consider. BMW Cadillac Ford Genesis Hyundai Kia Mercedes Rivian Tesla A busy weekend ensued and the experiences of driving so many different EVs showed where some succeeded and others fell short. Clearly some are still holding onto ICE (internal combustion engine) legacy engineering approach and others delivered on what is called a clean sheet design. Here was our weekend experience with the following brands: BMW - iX was a nice drive, interface experience was fine, it actually had plenty of room in the front, a little tighter in the back but for short drives, another person my size could sit behind me and would be fine. Exterior is a styling love / hate experience. Wife is not a fan of the huge kidney bean grill; she said it looked like a pig nose on steroids. The side profile was fine, and the back end looked like it was pinched in molding the design. Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported, overall, it would still be considered. Salesperson was polite and not pushy. Cadillac - Lyriq was the quietest drive of the day, Cadillac has nailed it, fast, solid and overall, a luxury EV ride. Interior over all was good, a little tight on head space with the sky roof, but the seat goes down far enough to adjust for that, interface of the dash was good. Android Auto / Apple Carplay is supported for the 2024 model year but is supposedly going away for the 2025 model year being replaced with the GM play store. Exterior styling my wife was fine with, better front end looks than the BMW. Would be on the consideration list. Salesperson was polite and not pushy. Nice balance of buttons to touch screen. Ford - Test drove an F150 Lighting and the Mach e, interior was fine, she liked the space and comfort. Was hoping for a midsize pickup truck, so ruled out the Lighting. Mach e she liked, both fit comfortably and clearly anyone could sit behind me my size and smaller. Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported. Major dislike was the salesperson who was very pushy and made comments that told my wife he was a male chauvinistic pig. He actually told me to man up as the wife would drive whatever I decided since I was the man. Big mistake as we do everything in equal partnership, so his approach failed to work. Mach e is still in consideration, we will go with another salesperson, maybe even another dealership. Genesis - GV60 / GV70, exterior was fine, though the GV60 she did say reminded her of a jellybean. Interior was very luxurious, but no one could sit behind me in the GV60, would be fine for short trips in the GV70. Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported. Interface was easy to use. She loved the interior but had reservations on the exterior but could not put her finger on it. GV70 would be in consideration. Nice balance of buttons to touch screen. Hyundai - Ioniq 5 SUV. She was not wowed by the exterior, felt it was sitting a bit low, bunker style, yet interior had plenty of room, Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported. Solid candidate to consider. Salesperson was nice, normal pushy attempts to have us make a decision, but as we told him, we still had others to test drive. Nice balance of buttons to touch screen. Kia - EV6 / EV9 - Exterior was not bad, was clearly different than many of the other EVs we had seen. EV6 is super tight inside for me, was fine for the wife as was the interface of their dashboard. No one could sit behind me. EV6 was out she said. EV9 was great, more room inside than our Escalade. Anyone could sit behind me, spacious for both of us and would transport anyone in comfort. Liked the exterior styling much more than many of the others we had test drove to date. Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported. Salesperson super nice and not pushy. Solid candidate. Nice balance of buttons to touch screen. Mercedes - EQS, interior was nice, driving was the second quietest behind the Cadillac. Interface was fine, but lower menus seemed cluttered. We liked the interior for the most part, the hard part of this EV was the exterior lack of any real styling. The worst Jellybean style around. Android Auto / Apple Carplay supported, Salesperson was super nice and not pushy, but as we told him when we thanked him for his time, the auto needs an identity. Wife said for her daily driver, this was a hard pass. Rivian - R1T / R1S - Exterior was a win for the wife right up there with the EV9 from Kia. Interior was also a big win as it was spacious and comfortable front and back. Interface was easy to use, over all a nice balance of buttons to touch screen. Sadly, Rivian is off the list as she asked the counselor about Android Auto / Apple Carplay, no support, no plan to support it. Must buy your apps from the Rivian store, failure big time we felt. Bummer as Rivian was a leading candidate for us. Tesla - Due to friends who have Tesla, even with her knowing my dislike for the Tesla CEO, she wanted to check out the Y / X. Overall the experience in talking with their counselor was good, good people skills, they went over the interface with the wife, in the meantime she saw that while I could fit in the Y, no one could sit behind me. in the X I could also fit, but only about 2 inches of space from the back of the seat to the back seat. Wife asked about Android Auto and Apple Carplay, they told her no plans, they offered her a test drive and she passed. Told me it was a bit weird in how you used the single interface in the center of the dash and a few other things, minimalist failure to her. Pass on Tesla. Now that we had spent a long weekend driving so many EVs, I asked her what her thoughts were on what she was leaning towards. She told me give her a few weeks to digest the information and she would let me know. While the wife digested the EV overload of info, I moved onto researching the EV technology of these auto makers. Auto EV Platform Info 2024.pdf One key item is that I do not want to be behind the 8 ball of technology standards. In this case, I am talking about companies that are on 400V platforms versus 800V platforms. in this case, this brings us down to the following, Cadillac, Genesis, Hyundai and Kia as everyone else is on 400V platforms and already have announced that 2025 and 2026 model years will be the conversion to new 800V platforms. Knowing my wife, one does not rush her, when she is ready, she will let me know, weeks passed by and finally one day at breakfast, she said I have an answer for you. I like the Cadillac Lyriq and the Kia EV9 the best. I want heated seats, steering wheel and AWD, otherwise I could care less about other features. In looking on the websites for my local dealerships, the Cadillac dealership that I have bought from before was sold during the pandemic to Brotherton Cadillac of Renton. So Brotherton Cadillac NW is the dealership near me, and the wife and I reviewed all the Lyriqs and settled on the following:  Cadillac Lyriq Sport 2 AWD Celestial Metallic. This paint color is a color shifting paint that covers purple to silver / grey spectrum depending on the light of the day and especially as I discovered sun versus rain. In the sun it is a radiant purplish color and under dark raining weather a serious silver/dark grey.     Chuck Olson Kia which is less than a mile away from Brotherton Cadillac NW on HWY 99 here in the greater Seattle area had a nice assortment EV9s in Wind, Land and GT versions. They had the traditional blue GT and an Ice Green that the wife really liked. So I settled on the Ice Green to test drive and see what the final price would be. Again, like the Lyriq, the ICE Green metallic paint job has a dominant blueness but turns various shades of lite green to greenish blue depending on the light of the day. At this point we get to the nitty gritty of the dealing, Price paid, rebates, final pricing to determine what the deal ends up being. Over dinner, the wife and I discussed the options of buying versus leasing and to both of us, it made sense at this early stage to lease rather than buy an EV. The addition of the IRA $7,500 rebate also played into our decision. For Cadillac the Lyriq qualifies again for the full $7,500 rebate whether you buy or lease, in the case of the Kia, due to manufacturing in Korea, the EV9 only qualifies for the rebate if you lease. This fall, Kia and Hyundai start manufacturing in the US allowing their EVs to get the full $7,500 rebate if buying. For me, I wanted to see what a zero down Lease deal would be as a starting point before paying down. Depending on credit rating, most auto leases require anywhere from $3,000 to $10,000 down and of course the more you pay down, the lower your monthly payment is. The nature of my work allows me flexibility and as such, I was able to go on a Friday morning at 10am to the Brotherton Cadillac NW to test drive the Lyriq Sport 2 edition. In fact the EV is still on the lot now almost two weeks later. New 2024 Blue Cadillac 4dr Sport w/1SJ LYRIQ for Sale North of Seattle, VIN = 1GYKPVRL1RZ127387 (brothertoncadillacnw.com) Upon driving onto the lot, I parked and saw the Lyriq as it shinned in the morning sun giving that purplish glow that my wife liked. I walked up and checked it out externally and it looked great. After about 10 minutes of checking the Lyriq out, I was still not approached by anyone, so I went into the sales floor and asked if I could talk with someone about a Lyriq. First salesperson said I needed to talk to their EV specialist and walked away, a second person came out of a side hallway and asked if I was being taken care of and I told them what just happened, and I was still standing here. He did apologize and asked me to wait just a moment and he would get the specialist.  A young man came out, introduced himself and asked me if I had any special model in mind and if I wanted to take a test drive. I took him out to show him the one I was interested in. He took down their special code and left to get the keys. At this point, over all experience with the dealership was not bad, neutral for me as it is nothing personal, just business and some do it better than others. The sales rep returned with the keys, he opened up the Lyriq and took me on a tour of the auto pointing out many of the features and explaining the functional differences between how it works on the EV versus an ICE auto. This I have to say was very welcomed as it showed me the man had knowledge of the auto and could show / explain to me how it was to be used. I appreciate this as my wife is not a tech person but show her how to do it and she it set, so this was a good start. We did the traditional driver's license and insurance validation, signed on the dotted line and I then took off for a road trip in the Lyriq. Android auto works as expected, over all interface was easy to understand and use with a nice balance of common used items in physical form right under the screen. Steering wheel had all the expected buttons and dials for using the auto. The Noise canceling of the auto gave it a quiet ride that I have never experienced before and still to this day is the best yet of all the EVs I have test driven.  Negative of the Lyriq is that it is not a true SUV, you sit lower more car like and headroom while I would be fine, required me to drop the seat to the bottom of it's settings which makes my driving position even lower. Knowing that this is the wife's auto, I returned to the dealership to talk price. Here is where things started to go south and why people hate dealerships. I tried my best to negotiate in good faith for a fair price on the EV. The dealership replied that it was the hottest ride available and as such no discounts, you paid the price they had on the auto which was MSRP plus $5,000. I informed them that no I was not going to pay over MSRP for an auto that shows over 300 are available in the greater Seattle area.  The Dealership then said fine, they would sell it at MSRP to me. Knowing that I get $7,500 off I was not put off by this but also not happy that they would not go down on the price. I told them at this point I was interested in leasing and wanted to see what the lease rate would be for 15,000 miles a year for three years. Here is where it got ugly.  The sales rep came back to me and had a handwritten piece of paper with a TRD (Total after Rebates and Discounts) price, Lease money factor number, Residual price and monthly payment including tax. The monthly payment was a little over $1,200 a month. I asked to see firm numbers showing the selling price minus the IRA rebate, tax, etc. all lined up so that I can understand the numbers. I was informed this is how leases are done, your rebate is figured into the residual amount and that this is all the accurate info they provide the buyer. If I agree to this, they can then process and sell me the Lyriq. I told the man that this handwritten paper did not explain any of what I asked to verify and see, so they would need to properly print out or hand write all details in order for me to make a decision. The rep left and was gone for about 10 minutes and then came back with another salesperson who reminded me of a traditional wild west snake oil salesman who tried to use the same paper I was shown and yet tell me I was not able to understand the complexities of leases and should trust him on this awesome monthly cost. When I told him I would not accept that vague random info, he then moved into the terrible game of "What can you afford a month?" Here is where many people either give up and accept or leave as they feel overwhelmed, I on the other hand laughed and told him that I would not play his game. Show me the valid real numbers with a final price on the Lyriq before processing for the Lease monthly amount.  My wife always told me I was a very frustrating person when it came to buying an auto as I would push for facts and have on more than one occasion made salespeople cry when they could not get their way playing their monthly afford game. This is how people get ripped off and taken advantage of. The two folks left and came back with the sales manager who tried again with the paper to spin a different tale. At this point, I said fine, I would consider this as I needed to talk with the wife, and she would need to drive the auto anyway before we would buy.  Leaving the Cadillac dealership, I drove south to Chuck Olson Kia, figured I would see how the EV9 drove again and see what kind of deal I could get. Arriving at the dealership, I saw the EV9 I was interested in on the lot, looked it over and turned around to see if I can get some help and a young man greeted me and said he was with another customer, but would let another salesperson know I was looking at that EV9. Only a few minutes later, the sales rep came out, greeted me and had the keys so he opened up the EV and showed me the SUV.  Here the experience was similar in that we took the EV9 in Ice Green for a drive. As I drove it, I was informed about the various features and how they all worked. An overview that was enjoyable as I drove the near silent EV locally. I did notice that it was not as quiet as the Lyriq, but most would not really notice the difference, everything else on the road was far louder. We returned to the dealership and sat down; I asked the rep for the best price on this EV9 he could give me. He left to talk to his manager. Now I was comparing the price of the Lyriq Sport level 2 to this EV9 AWD Land edition and the MSRP price between the two was within a hundred dollars of each other. The EV9 had a number of features that the Lyriq did not have unless I paid substantially more and go to the top end Sport Level 3. At this point the Kia was winning on features giving it a better value due to the two being priced nearly the same. The sales rep came back to the table with a price that was $5,000 off MSRP. I felt based on internet searching that this was a fair price and felt it was good. I asked him then at this price with my IRA rebate of $7,500 what would a three-year lease with 15,000 miles a year cost me per month. The rep said give him a few minutes to have the manager put this in the system and he would come back with a detailed price for me. The salesperson returned about 10 minutes later with a Deal Sheet for me to review. Here is where the difference became clear between this Kia Dealership and the Cadillac Dealership. The Deal Sheet had all the numbers listed out clearly. Any person could walk through this in full understanding. The lease deal, started off with the Stock number for the EV9, had the MSRP listed, discount, then Selling price of the EV9. This was followed by a blank field for accessories or add on sales items as the sales rep explained. The rebate for $7,500 was clearly listed, blank space for Trade, cash cap reduction, license fee, doc fee ending in a final price of the EV that was then broken down by 36 months @ 15,000 miles a year for a Base monthly rental cost and then the sales tax on the whole deal which was broken down into monthly tax rate added to the monthly lease amount. Residual value at the end of the lease, a residual money factor that is a decimal number used to figure out the monthly lease rate. All in all, a very clear understandable deal and the monthly price for the EV9 was $837 per month compared to $1,200 plus for the Cadillac. I told the salesperson that I would need to talk to my wife when she got home tonight and would give him a call back. As I was getting ready to leave, I realized I had forgotten to ask an important question. Could the front driver and passenger windows be tinted to match the rest of the auto. Due to having had skin cancer, blocking out UV plus just having it darker is what I prefer. The sales rep said he believed so but would have to check with his manager and could call me if I gave him my number later. I left him my cell number and headed home. Sitting at home, I was thinking about the experience at the Cadillac dealership and wondering, can it really be that bad at any other dealership? So, I did a search and found the identical Cadillac Lyriq Sport 2 AWD Celestial Metallic at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership and much farther away at Larson Cadillac of Fife. Off to Bellevue I went. Arriving at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership, I was promptly greeted and professionally questioned on the auto I was interested in. The young man was always polite and more than happy to help me. This dealership is one of the newly built from the ground up dealerships that truly echo's Luxury and what I would expect from a luxury dealership. Due to the knowledge of the salesperson like the other dealership, it started off positive, went out to check and see if the auto their website stated they had on hand was actually there. It was, Identical to the one at Brotherton Cadillac NW in Shoreline Washington. At this point, I gave him the same info I had given the other person to see what the pricing would be. Ten minutes later he returned with a printed sheet of paper, that was better than handwritten. Had a set sale price that was a couple thousand off the MSRP, had a rebate of $1,000 showing a reduced price, document fee, licensing and a theft engraving that he said they do on all autos sold there so nothing I could do about not wanting it. The total at the end showed a lease money factor, term, mileage and residual with a base payment of $1,042 dollars. with no money down.  Now two things I noticed, one was that the IRA rebate was not showing anywhere on the paperwork and the second item was that at least their price was over $200 less than the other dealership. I inquired about the $7,500 rebate and he said he did not know and would go ask. Upon returning he said it was factored into the residual value of the Lyriq when I traded it back in. I pointed out that the rebate does not go into a value of the vehicle but is paid to the dealership and so comes off the price of the auto. Things continued to go downhill from here as I was told by him that I did not understand how leasing worked. His sales manager stopped by, and I pointed this out, same response, I do not understand how leasing works. I informed them that I would need to present this to my wife and discuss it with her. They attempted the pressure response of get her on the phone, we can explain it and you can drive home in your new EV. They were not happy with me and would not let me have the paperwork. When they stepped out to talk, I snapped a quick picture of the printed paperwork. Two Cadillac dealerships, two different lease prices on the identically spec / priced Lyriq Sport 2 and no honest showing of where the rebate would end up at.  Heading home this made me wonder about Cadillac and their EV focus which we have since learned in the news has changed to having ICE and EV through 2030 and beyond. At home, I explained my day of EV shopping to the wife, she was disappointed that Cadillac was not forthcoming with their pricing. She liked the looks of the Lyriq as much as the looks of the Kia EV9. At this point the phone rang, and it was the sales rep for Kia. He informed me that yes, the doors could be tinted and that his sales manager if we were willing to move forward with the deal would throw in the front window tinting. We setup an appointment for Saturday morning to go and test drive the EV9 with the wife to ensure she would be happy driving it. For full details on our EV9 Purchase read this story: Now at this point, I figured I would relax for the evening, but I got another phone call from a sales rep at Larson Cadillac who informed me that the Lyriq I was interested was already sold at their dealership, but he could make me another deal on a like existing Lyriq, different color. I informed him that my wife liked the 800V Lyriq in the Celestial Metallic. The man on the other end of the phone said he could see if they could do a trade to get what we were interested in, but he wanted me to understand that the Lyriq was not a true 800V EV. I was surprised by his comment and asked him why it was not a true 800V EV. I learned and have verified that the only EV GM makes that truly can handle 350 kW fast charging is the Hummers, the Lyriq has an 800V electrical system, but the battery packs are first generation and as such only rated at 400V meaning they have a top charging speed of 150 kW. GM is planning to roll out 800V battery packs starting with the Chevrolet and GMC full size pickups. All other EVs will continue to use the 400V battery packs for now. At this point, I thanked the man for his time and would think on it and get back to him. As a person wanting to be current, this takes me to the Kia EV9 only. I did not say anything to my wife about the tech and hoped she would be happy with how it drove. Luckily that was a success the next day. I have spent half my life on the sales side and in training new sales folks there is a pretty basic 5 step process in sales: 1) Greet the customer inquiring what brought them in today 2) Qualify the person on what they want 3) Trial close to see if they are ready 4) Clarify questions and overcome concerns 5) Close the Sale. To accomplish this basic 5 steps, you first have to fully train the individual in what they are selling. Here Cadillac clearly is not or possibly the dealerships are not wanting to ensure everyone know how to sell an EV. Recap of this whole shopping experience is that Kia is nailing it with a professional sales experience, knowledgeable people on their products and a sales / lease process that is clear hiding nothing from allowing you to commit to buying or leasing a new auto. Cadillac on the other hand has left me with the feeling of snake oil salespersons at both dealerships with vague pricing, vague rebates and me wondering just how much they really want to earn my repeat business as I would love to replace my current Escalade with an Escalade IQ, but at this point, Genesis the luxury brand for Hyundai / Kia will reveal their Full Size GV90 ICE/Hybrid/Electric SUV summer of 2024 and I might just be replacing it with a Genesis. Any questions, ask away.   View full article
    • riviera74
      Random Thoughts Thread

      By riviera74 · Posted

      Rivian? Value? That's hilarious.🤣
    • G. David Felt
      Reader Rides: Our EV Editor Buys a Kia EV9

      By G. David Felt · Posted

      Let me put it this way, The amount of money I saved with the interior having more room inside than my current Escalade and the silent comfort, It is a win to me with not having to deal with any of the ICE maintenance or gas trips. My leasing / buying story should help enlighten you on why leasing an EV is a good thing right now. I am also putting in a Level 2 charger at the house that will be another story on the research, cost, etc. So you can follow up on that story too.
    • ccap41
      Permanent Car Spotters

      By ccap41 · Posted

      I stumbled upon a small meetup this weekend. There's a new custom/restoration shop about two blocks from my home and I was walking to a Casey's to grab a cake donut for my wife (hahaha) and this is right next to the Casey's.  This grey Chevelle was perfect, absolutely perfect. The plate is the name of the shop, Xtreme (restoration, bodywork, modification). I'm sure this is their show piece, and what a piece of work/art it is! I believe the van is theirs as well.  Later that day we ran to Aldi and came across the International Scout. it was far from mint condition, but it was "pretty good" but even cooler to see it just out and about. 
    • smk4565
      Reader Rides: Our EV Editor Buys a Kia EV9

      By smk4565 · Posted

      That's an exciting purchase, EV is tempting to me, but I still think all these current Gen EV's are too expensive compared to ICE cars.  If they can cut weight and cost 15% then I think the flood gates open on EV sales.

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