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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    By William Maley •

    Next Jeep Grand Cherokee To Use Alfa Romeo Bits

      Grand Cherokee to possibly become a bit more Italian

    The current Jeep Grand Cherokee that we love here at Cheers & Gears uses the bones of the Mercedes-Benz ML-Class (now GLE-Class) that was developed during the DiamlerChrysler era. But with a new owner in the form of Fiat, it would make sense that next Grand Cherokee would use a platform from them. But which one? Fiat Chrysler Automobiles' CEO Sergio Marchionne said it would likely be an Alfa Romeo one.

    “The most natural application of a further evolution of the Alfa Romeo platform is the Grand Cherokee,” Marchionne told Autocar during the Detroit Auto Show.

    “We’re finishing off the study now, but I’m going on the basis of the latest information, which is that it will be the basis upon which the Grand Cherokee will be developed, unless something happens in the next 60 days that suggests it isn’t doable. That would really complete the story of architectural development for us because I think it would certainly nail in a big piece of the Jeep story.”

    This likely means the Grand Cherokee will be based on the Giorgio that underpins the Giulia and upcoming Stelvio crossover. Autocar says the next-generation Grand Cherokee will come out in either 2018 or 2019. We think that isn't likely and would put 2020 as the earliest date.

    Source: Autocar
    Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears

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    Stew

    IMHO, this is a good thing.  It is still RWD based and the current GC is unibody/fully independent suspension anyway.  It also should come with some serious weight savings.  I wonder if it ma get a little tidier in dimensions too since the Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer are now confirmed. 

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    G. David Felt

    :scratchchin: This should be an interesting mess. To quote CCAP41, " Hello Reliability!" 

    Guess they have to figure out some way to justify the billions stolen for a platform that has not even sold what 100 cars here yet in the US?

    Sergio = :palm:

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    hyperv6

    Will they be putting a big Vagina Grill on the Wrangler.

    Seriously, I am not sure this is a smart move as I have more faith in Chrysler engineering than Alfa/Fiat engineering. Do not disagree unless you have actually turned a wrench on a Alfa or Fiat.

    Edited by hyperv6
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    Stew
    13 minutes ago, hyperv6 said:

    Will they be putting a big Vagina Grill on the Wrangler.

    Seriously, I am not sure this is a smart move as I have more faith in Chrysler engineering than Alfa/Fiat engineering. Do not disagree unless you have actually turned a wrench on a Alfa or Fiat.

    Um, the Wrangler is staying on a version of it's BOF platform that will form the basis of the pickup as well. 

    18 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    So the only non Italian Jeep will be the Wrangler? 

     

     

    Considering the Wrangler and Wrangler truck are running BOF platforms as will the Wagoneer and grand Wagoneer, not to mention this platform was actually co developed to be used in Alfas and Dodges and you have no point......  as usual.  Hell, they can't win for losing.  people bitch about old platforms and when they come out with a new one people find stupid and babified $h! to bitch about still.  Give it a rest. 

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    Stew
    Just now, ccap41 said:

    I have not seen a good report of reliability coming from Italy.

    This is a brand new platform though, no reason to naysay it until it has had a chance.  Also, besides the 9 speed, which has nothing to do with the Italian platform, I haven't seen any particular issues with reliability in the Renegade, Cherokee, or even 200.  heck, at this point and actually 16 models, the 9 speed issues are no more. 

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    ccap41

    Those aren't Italian.. well the Renegade is. But get on some other public forums/groups where somebody owns one.. I'm a part of a facebook group where two people have Fiat 500L's and they're big-ole-pieces-of-shet. They always have issues. One got rid of his for a Beetle, actually.

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    FordCosworth
    34 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Um, the Wrangler is staying on a version of it's BOF platform that will form the basis of the pickup as well. 

    Considering the Wrangler and Wrangler truck are running BOF platforms as will the Wagoneer and grand Wagoneer, not to mention this platform was actually co developed to be used in Alfas and Dodges and you have no point......  as usual.  Hell, they can't win for losing.  people bitch about old platforms and when they come out with a new one people find stupid and babified $h! to bitch about still.  Give it a rest. 

    A) Um.. ya. I know the Wrangler is staying on its platform . Hence me saying it'll be the ONLY non Italian Jeep.

    B) Who knows if there will ever be Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer. Supposedly the project is back on...again. With their piss poor finances, delays, cancellations...the 5yrs plan might as well be the 5min plan. 

    C) Co developed for Dodge and Alfa???. Until now, not once was there ever a mention about a Jeep based off of the Giorgio. Seeing that pipe dream of 300k Alfa being truly unreachable, FCA need atomization of the costs of this pricey platform beyond what Dodge ( which was delayed until AT LEAST 2020 ) can ever succeed in. 

     

     

    Edited by FordCosworth
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    Stew
    5 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    A) Um.. ya. I know the Wrangler is staying on its platform . Hence me saying it'll be the ONLY non Italian Jeep.

    B) Who knows if there will ever be Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer. Supposedly the project is back on...again. With their piss poor finances, delays, cancellations...the 5yrs plan might as well be the 5min plan. 

    C) Co developed for Dodge and Alfa???. Until now, not once was there ever a mention about a Jeep based off of the Giorgio. Seeing that pipe dream of 300k Alfa being truly unreachable, FCA need atomization of the costs of this pricey platform beyond what Dodge ( which was delayed until AT LEAST 2020 ) can ever succeed in. 

     

     

    A.  And the Jeep Truck

     

    B.  It was confirmed Sunday including the fact it is body on frame and even which factory will build it.   Pay attention.

    C.  Using these platforms across many vehicles is perfectly fine.  All previous GCs have been unibody and still had amazing off-road prowess so i am not at all seeing our point.  Also they are putting their investments first into what is selling and what is popular and then to the less popular and less popular cars.  it makes complete sense from a business standpoint and FCA is above all, a business. 

    30 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Those aren't Italian.. well the Renegade is. But get on some other public forums/groups where somebody owns one.. I'm a part of a facebook group where two people have Fiat 500L's and they're big-ole-pieces-of-shet. They always have issues. One got rid of his for a Beetle, actually.

    500Ls are POSs and should be killed.  They also look like they were designed when someone looked at a pile dog crap on the ground and thought hey, that is a nice design.  .  I am pretty sure that platform is different than what underpins the rest. 

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    FordCosworth

     " It was confirmed Sunday including the fact it is body on frame and even which factory will build it.   Pay attention. "

    FCA pattern of talking before walking has me paying attention. So until I see Test Mules of the supposed Wagoneers, its all talk. Their actions are what speaks. 

    " Also they are putting their investments first into what is selling and what is popular and then to the less popular and less popular cars.  it makes complete sense from a business standpoint and FCA is above all, a business "

    It that was the case, RAM would not be pushed back. The upcoming 1500 is only a refresh and now the 2018 HD's heavily updated trucks have been delayed.

     

     

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    Stew
    14 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

     " It was confirmed Sunday including the fact it is body on frame and even which factory will build it.   Pay attention. "

    FCA pattern of talking before walking has me paying attention. So until I see Test Mules of the supposed Wagoneers, its all talk. Their actions are what speaks. 

    " Also they are putting their investments first into what is selling and what is popular and then to the less popular and less popular cars.  it makes complete sense from a business standpoint and FCA is above all, a business "

    It that was the case, RAM would not be pushed back. The upcoming 1500 is only a refresh and now the 2018 HD's heavily updated trucks have been delayed.

     

     

    Haven't exactly seen test mules of the Ranger or Bronco running around and they have roughly the same production schedule.  Sure you are totally fine with that.  As for the Ram, it is only the HDs and is pretty normal they be a year or 2 behind the LD trucks, ie 15 F-150 and 17 Superduty......   Again, you have no idea and I am sure you will vote my comments down since they don't agree with you, you child.  

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    ccap41
    20 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    FCA pattern of talking before walking has me paying attention. So until I see Test Mules of the supposed Wagoneers, its all talk. Their actions are what speaks. 

    I have to agree.. too much here-say to believe anything to the 'T' at this point.

    4 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Haven't exactly seen test mules of the Ranger or Bronco running around and they have roughly the same production schedule.  Sure you are totally fine with that.  As for the Ram, it is only the HDs and is pretty normal they be a year or 2 behind the LD trucks, ie 15 F-150 and 17 Superduty......   Again, you have no idea and I am sure you will vote my comments down since they don't agree with you, you child.  

    Because there is a Ranger/Bronco vehicle already out there that they are utilizing for the 2019/2020 vehicles. So the test mules are likely either; not needing additional testing as they already have a Ranger or completely undisguised in other countries with different things under sheet metal(aluminum?).

    It isn't that they are putting them out together it is the fact that they had to delay yet another product that is worrisome. I have no issue at all with them coming out together or the timeframe in which the current gen has been out for. It's that it was scheduled for a certain length and got pushed back like a few other products have been as well.

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    Stew
    4 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I have to agree.. too much here-say to believe anything to the 'T' at this point.

    Because there is a Ranger/Bronco vehicle already out there that they are utilizing for the 2019/2020 vehicles. So the test mules are likely either; not needing additional testing as they already have a Ranger or completely undisguised in other countries with different things under sheet metal(aluminum?).

    It isn't that they are putting them out together it is the fact that they had to delay yet another product that is worrisome. I have no issue at all with them coming out together or the timeframe in which the current gen has been out for. It's that it was scheduled for a certain length and got pushed back like a few other products have been as well.

    These' are the most concrete confirmations we have had, there is no reason to NOT believe them.  Everything else was from those old 5 year plans or simply heresay.  They are making these investments and starting the retooling processes very soon.  And on your  first part, there is an Alfa SUV and car already out there that the LX replacements and GC, if approved, would be on.  And the definitely coming ram will be the basis for the now  confirmed Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer. 

    And delays happen in the auto industry all of the damned time. 

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    FordCosworth
    35 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Haven't exactly seen test mules of the Ranger or Bronco running around and they have roughly the same production schedule.  Sure you are totally fine with that.  As for the Ram, it is only the HDs and is pretty normal they be a year or 2 behind the LD trucks, ie 15 F-150 and 17 Superduty......   Again, you have no idea and I am sure you will vote my comments down since they don't agree with you, you child.  

    I downvoted you for a couple reasons...

    1)  As was pointed out by another - your debate skills 

    2) Name calling.

     

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    Stew
    2 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    I downvoted you for a couple reasons...

    1)  As was pointed out by another - your debate skills 

    2) Name calling.

     

    Have you ever heard of an old saying?  the pot calling the kettle black.........  And come on, you have downvoted comments that were not even debating with anyone.  it has happened and others just because you don't like them or they disagree with you.  very childish (and that is not name calling BTW)

    Edited by Stew
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    Stew
    6 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    They just so happen to FCA more than anybody else... What was the last GM or Ford vehicle delayed?

    Focus RS

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a30138/ford-cancels-2016-focus-rs-prodution/

    Raptor

    http://www.itechpost.com/articles/62281/20161206/2017-ford-f-150-raptor-delivery-delayed-heres-why.htm

    Superduty

    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/13/ford-super-duty-launch-delay-report/

    GM it is more delays of tech, IE Cadillacs Super Cruise was delayed

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    FordCosworth
    14 minutes ago, Stew said:

    Focus RS

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a30138/ford-cancels-2016-focus-rs-prodution/

    Raptor

    http://www.itechpost.com/articles/62281/20161206/2017-ford-f-150-raptor-delivery-delayed-heres-why.htm

    Superduty

    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/10/13/ford-super-duty-launch-delay-report/

    GM it is more delays of tech, IE Cadillacs Super Cruise was delayed

    Did you read the RS link? 

    Raptor ( fault in production ) and SD ( parts issue ) delayed a month vs FCA products delayed for years/pushed back

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    Stew
    2 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    Did you read the RS link? 

    Raptor ( fault in production ) and SD ( parts issue ) delayed a month vs FCA products delayed for years/pushed back

    LOL, he asked or examples of delayed vehicles and I gave them.  now you are just pandering because the results don't suity ou 100% again.  Delays are delays. 

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    surreal1272

    About FCA, they do need to get it in gear and get the product train rolling already. They have not managed it very well where Dodge, Chrysler, and RAM are concerned but hopefully these lastest round of announcements will start bearing real fruit before it's too late. 

    Edited by William Maley
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    Stew
    47 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    About FCA, they do need to get it in gear and get the product train rolling already. They have not managed it very well where Dodge, Chrysler, and RAM are concerned but hopefully these lastest round of announcements will start bearing real fruit before it's too late. 

    1

    haha, ou have a point.  I have hope.  The announcement Sunday helped lol.  I am looking most forward to the Wrangler pickup.  they won't be able to keep those on the lots. 

    Edited by William Maley
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    ccap41

    Special editions? I mean I guess they are delays but it is after the F150 and Focus have been out. In FCA's case they would be delaying the Focus and the F150 from the beginning.

    That Super duty article was delaying the launch of it but the product was completed and driven in a review. Not pushing back the whole Super Duty project a year or more.

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    surreal1272
    1 minute ago, Stew said:

    haha, ou have a point.  I have hope.  The announcement Sunday helped lol.  I am looking most forward to the Wrangler pickup.  they won't be able to keep those on the lots. 

    No they won't. I still remember the old Scramblers from the 80s. They were unreliable piles but man, the owners loved them like it was their actual baby. Jeep has a prime opportunity to seize the off road pick up market with this.

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    ccap41
    9 minutes ago, FordCosworth said:

    Did you read the RS link? 

    Raptor ( fault in production ) and SD ( parts issue ) delayed a month vs FCA products delayed for years/pushed back

    No offense to Stew but I don't think he read the articles but rather found the first Ford articles mentioning delay and went with them.

    The RS and Raptor were also an issue like the SD in which the PRODUCT was completed not delayed. Yes, technically it was delayed but there is a huge difference in how/why those Fords were delayed and the FCA products were.

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    Stew

    Nope, knew why they were delayed, but you only requested delays and these ARE delays. 

    22 minutes ago, surreal1272 said:

    No they won't. I still remember the old Scramblers from the 80s. They were unreliable piles but man, the owners loved them like it was their actual baby. Jeep has a prime opportunity to seize the off road pick up market with this.

    Should have been done when the JK came out. 

    Oh, can't believe I forgot that a lot of GM products were delayed upt to years after the bailout or killed altogether, IE the ATS convertible. 

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    hyperv6
    3 hours ago, Stew said:

    Um, the Wrangler is staying on a version of it's BOF platform that will form the basis of the pickup as well. 

    Considering the Wrangler and Wrangler truck are running BOF platforms as will the Wagoneer and grand Wagoneer, not to mention this platform was actually co developed to be used in Alfas and Dodges and you have no point......  as usual.  Hell, they can't win for losing.  people bitch about old platforms and when they come out with a new one people find stupid and babified $h! to bitch about still.  Give it a rest. 

    Sorry I did not  think I had to explain my comment was only sarcasm comment.

    Well Sergio now is thinking Trump would want GM to merge with FCA now. This guy really needs to put down the meth pipe. Sarcasm.

    It is a telling comment as it shows he has no one wanting to partner with FCA at this point and may not find anyone that will be willing to partner. Not Sarcasm.

    It is bad when even the Chinese are not stepping in just for Jeep and the Trucks. Not Sarcasm.

    As for platforms I would not brag too much about being part Alfa. They have never really been know for durability, long term quality and reliability. Yes they have made some fun cars before they fell apart. Not Sarcasm.

    Sergio should have just given Chrysler and Dodge Engineers the money and let them do it all. Or do you have an issue with this?  Not Sarcasm.

    I hope you can now follow and not get confused as usual. Sarcasm.

    Edited by hyperv6
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    hyperv6
    1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

    No they won't. I still remember the old Scramblers from the 80s. They were unreliable piles but man, the owners loved them like it was their actual baby. Jeep has a prime opportunity to seize the off road pick up market with this.

    We had one customer who made a Scrambler into a Dually. It really was a neat ride and the fiberglass fenders he used on the bed really blended in nice. It looked factory. I loved that thing till it rusted out.

    The prime problem with the Scrambler was the cargo room for the time was limited for the size and price. It was unpopular then but today would pose little problem with the mid size trucks today.

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    ccap41
    1 hour ago, Stew said:

    Nope, knew why they were delayed, but you only requested delays and these ARE delays.

    Luckily the delays you showed us aren't a sign of a shet company/management of said company but rather production or supplier issues of a completed product. 30 days is acceptable... 1-2 years.. eehhh

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    Stew

    Hyper V6, ou are incorrect on the FCA/GM merger.  In that interview he made it clear they are no longer looking for merger of any kind. 

     

    Here is a transcript of the complete unedited interview.

    http://www.allpar.com/news/2017/01/what-sergio-really-said-36076

    CCap i have little doubt that if I had time to look i could find plenty of instances of such happening with other manufacturers.  Difference is that usually if they are delayed they end up getting cancelled (ie the 98 update of the Thunderbird where there were actual mules running around, including an SV version), but they killed it.  The Fox Mustang 87 Update was put on hold when they decided to make the FWD "Mustang" the Probe and instead did a heavy refresh on the Fox Mustang.  .  I am sure there are TONS more examples.  It happens dude, they are fixing it.  They are making Billion dollar investments retooling factories.  They are going to be bring in 2000 more jobs too.  I know that is just awful, right?   Quit trying to twist everything into a negative. 

    Also, remember they learned a huge lesson from rushing the Dart to production and it blew up.  I would rather see delays and things done righ myself. 

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    ccap41

    Yes, back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's there was shet management from them all and that's why everybody needed money to have their asses saved in 2007-2009. This is a different era. This is an era in which companies needed to trim fat and streamline manufacturing. Become efficient or go under. Adapt to the market or go under. Adapt to regulations or go under. Make products that people want or go under.

    They learned so much with the Dart that they..nope.. did the same with the 200 also.. Maybe they didn't learn yet. Maybe they learned enough from those that they could release the Renegade/500L without issues...nope.. not there either.. Maybe they learned enough at this point that they can make a good product AND get it out on a reasonable schedule. Reasonable, as in, not years of delay.

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    Stew
    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    Yes, back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's there was shet management from them all and that's why everybody needed money to have their asses saved in 2007-2009. This is a different era. This is an era in which companies needed to trim fat and streamline manufacturing. Become efficient or go under. Adapt to the market or go under. Adapt to regulations or go under. Make products that people want or go under.

    They learned so much with the Dart that they..nope.. did the same with the 200 also.. Maybe they didn't learn yet. Maybe they learned enough from those that they could release the Renegade/500L without issues...nope.. not there either.. Maybe they learned enough at this point that they can make a good product AND get it out on a reasonable schedule. Reasonable, as in, not years of delay.

    Have you been in a 200?  Completely different animal from the dart.  IMHO, a lot of the problem was the fact you had those ever popular Jeeps on the same lot and they push the trucks and Jeeps.  plus they kind of shot their themselves in the foot by announcing the stop production so quickly.  Also, this is a bit different.  It takes time to basically rebuild a car company and that is what they have done .  They have started with and continue to build their largest profit centers and continue to use them to drag down their debt until they can put money into other things.  They have dropped from 5 billion to 3 billion in debt is a very short time and have a plan to be completely out of debt by 2018, which is when the real lion's share of new product intros will begin. 

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    hyperv6
    4 hours ago, Stew said:

    Hyper V6, ou are incorrect on the FCA/GM merger.  In that interview he made it clear they are no longer looking for merger of any kind. 

     

    Here is a transcript of the complete unedited interview.

    http://www.allpar.com/news/2017/01/what-sergio-really-said-36076

    CCap i have little doubt that if I had time to look i could find plenty of instances of such happening with other manufacturers.  Difference is that usually if they are delayed they end up getting cancelled (ie the 98 update of the Thunderbird where there were actual mules running around, including an SV version), but they killed it.  The Fox Mustang 87 Update was put on hold when they decided to make the FWD "Mustang" the Probe and instead did a heavy refresh on the Fox Mustang.  .  I am sure there are TONS more examples.  It happens dude, they are fixing it.  They are making Billion dollar investments retooling factories.  They are going to be bring in 2000 more jobs too.  I know that is just awful, right?   Quit trying to twist everything into a negative. 

    Also, remember they learned a huge lesson from rushing the Dart to production and it blew up.  I would rather see delays and things done righ myself. 

    Here is what everyone else is reporting. 

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-09/marchionne-suggests-trump-might-support-merger-with-rival-gm

    For him to even bring it up suggest strongly he has not totally given up on this. If given any support this mental case would go down this road again. 

    As for rushing product like the Dart into production? How long is long enough? GM had already brought out how many products since the chapter 11 that both went through and even when GM missed it was fixed pretty quick. Now we are even on to the second new platforms not just models. 

    The fact is Sergio screwed Chrysler and Dodge on their cars and at this point he is looking for ways to fix it now that his Alfa and Maserati plan has failed. Just go back to where he predicted like 380K Alfa sales by last year and we are no where even close to 1/3 of that. This was to have saved FCA and right now if is in trouble. 

    I just do not see how you can not be beside yourself mad at the lunatic running the company. My Mopar buddies would love to lynch him right in Auburn Hills. 

    The whole Mustang/Probe deal was GM and Ford was looking to go all FWD in the 80's. GM First and then Ford was going to match them. In the end the Mustang was saved by high volume sales and they just could not kill the car. The enthusiast saved it not Ford. In the end after the deal with Mazda they just changed the name to the Probe and it served it's few years and faded away. GM in the mean time had the GM 80 FWD F body replacment. It was to have been built on the line with the Fiero as the plant was way under capacity. 

    So GM was working on it to match the FWD Mustang. Well once Ford moved back to the Fox and planned to keep it GM did the same killing the GM 80. This in turn gave the Corvette guys the ability to point out the under capacity of the Fiero plant and nothing to move to that line and it was killed even with prototypes roaming around and they still have one and I have parts from it. 

    The funny thing is the 1990 Fiero was used to style the 4th gen RWD F body. They up sized it and moved the engine but the lines are all there as well that is how some of the body panels ended up composite. 

    There is still a lot more to all of this as it was a very intertwined deal.  I have been lucky to speak to many who were in on this and hear the story that could not have been published,.  The UAW and Pontiac were at odds for years as well as Pontiac and GM/Chevy too. 

    But the Mustang end I remember very well as working in the performance industry we were making a lot of money from this and with our connections to Ford Motorsports we had some insight to all of this. They even were nervous on the move to the new Ford engines leaving the 5.0 behind. Many still regretted it till the Coyote came out. 

    I would love to see someone write a tell all inside story on the performance cars from the 80's and 90's as there was much inter brand rivalry but there was almost internal war inside each company. 

    The fights at Chrysler with Lido. Gale, Lutz and Shelby were amazing.  At GM the divisions did more damage to each other than Ford or Chrylser. Ford also had their internal strife. 

    3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    Yes, back in the 80's, 90's and early 00's there was shet management from them all and that's why everybody needed money to have their asses saved in 2007-2009. This is a different era. This is an era in which companies needed to trim fat and streamline manufacturing. Become efficient or go under. Adapt to the market or go under. Adapt to regulations or go under. Make products that people want or go under.

    They learned so much with the Dart that they..nope.. did the same with the 200 also.. Maybe they didn't learn yet. Maybe they learned enough from those that they could release the Renegade/500L without issues...nope.. not there either.. Maybe they learned enough at this point that they can make a good product AND get it out on a reasonable schedule. Reasonable, as in, not years of delay.

    They learned that you can let Chrysler can make a compelling design but slapping it on a poor Lancia or Fiat based platform was not enough. There is not cheap easy way out of this issue. They needed to let Chrysler do the platform just as the styling and do it right. Then they would have had a back seat with leg room and not had to squish it on a platform that was not bad but not great and too small. 

    The Dart was just too little in a segment where it is tough to measure up even with a very good car. 

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    Stew
    12 hours ago, hyperv6 said:

    Here is what everyone else is reporting. 

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-09/marchionne-suggests-trump-might-support-merger-with-rival-gm

    For him to even bring it up suggest strongly he has not totally given up on this. If given any support this mental case would go down this road again. 

    As for rushing product like the Dart into production? How long is long enough? GM had already brought out how many products since the chapter 11 that both went through and even when GM missed it was fixed pretty quick. Now we are even on to the second new platforms not just models. 

    The fact is Sergio screwed Chrysler and Dodge on their cars and at this point he is looking for ways to fix it now that his Alfa and Maserati plan has failed. Just go back to where he predicted like 380K Alfa sales by last year and we are no where even close to 1/3 of that. This was to have saved FCA and right now if is in trouble. 

    I just do not see how you can not be beside yourself mad at the lunatic running the company. My Mopar buddies would love to lynch him right in Auburn Hills. 

    The whole Mustang/Probe deal was GM and Ford was looking to go all FWD in the 80's. GM First and then Ford was going to match them. In the end the Mustang was saved by high volume sales and they just could not kill the car. The enthusiast saved it not Ford. In the end after the deal with Mazda they just changed the name to the Probe and it served it's few years and faded away. GM in the mean time had the GM 80 FWD F body replacment. It was to have been built on the line with the Fiero as the plant was way under capacity. 

    So GM was working on it to match the FWD Mustang. Well once Ford moved back to the Fox and planned to keep it GM did the same killing the GM 80. This in turn gave the Corvette guys the ability to point out the under capacity of the Fiero plant and nothing to move to that line and it was killed even with prototypes roaming around and they still have one and I have parts from it. 

    The funny thing is the 1990 Fiero was used to style the 4th gen RWD F body. They up sized it and moved the engine but the lines are all there as well that is how some of the body panels ended up composite. 

    There is still a lot more to all of this as it was a very intertwined deal.  I have been lucky to speak to many who were in on this and hear the story that could not have been published,.  The UAW and Pontiac were at odds for years as well as Pontiac and GM/Chevy too. 

    But the Mustang end I remember very well as working in the performance industry we were making a lot of money from this and with our connections to Ford Motorsports we had some insight to all of this. They even were nervous on the move to the new Ford engines leaving the 5.0 behind. Many still regretted it till the Coyote came out. 

    I would love to see someone write a tell all inside story on the performance cars from the 80's and 90's as there was much inter brand rivalry but there was almost internal war inside each company. 

    The fights at Chrysler with Lido. Gale, Lutz and Shelby were amazing.  At GM the divisions did more damage to each other than Ford or Chrylser. Ford also had their internal strife. 

    They learned that you can let Chrysler can make a compelling design but slapping it on a poor Lancia or Fiat based platform was not enough. There is not cheap easy way out of this issue. They needed to let Chrysler do the platform just as the styling and do it right. Then they would have had a back seat with leg room and not had to squish it on a platform that was not bad but not great and too small. 

    The Dart was just too little in a segment where it is tough to measure up even with a very good car. 

    Please read the interview.  per the man himself they are no longer seeking ANY merger.  His words, not some third party news service that is guessing. 

    9 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

    What's the worse that could happen here....

     

    You can slap a Jeep name on a sedan, and it'll sell through the roof, just because it'll be the first-ever, and Jeep.

    Return of the AMC Eagle!!!!!

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/9OyEG8wBHSc/maxresdefault.jpg

     

    9 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

    What's the worse that could happen here....

     

    You can slap a Jeep name on a sedan, and it'll sell through the roof, just because it'll be the first-ever, and Jeep.

    Return of the AMC Eagle!!!!!

    maxresdefault.jpg

     

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    Stew
    2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Probably as a re-badge POS Alfa. Course I actually liked this auto as it was an American version of a Subaru 4x4. Way before it's time or the public knowing they wanted awd cuv's.

    I knew a few people who had these when I was a kid.  WIsh I would have been old enough to pick one up when they sold them haha. 

    I would prefer:

     

    sx4.jpg

     

    • Agree 1
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    G. David Felt
    45 minutes ago, Stew said:

    I knew a few people who had these when I was a kid.  WIsh I would have been old enough to pick one up when they sold them haha. 

    I would prefer:

     

    sx4.jpg

     

    Yea these were cool cars, lifted and 4x4. Would love to have a clean one like this one. Any color would do really I think.

    00-7111982AMCEagleSX4.jpg

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    Stew
    2 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yea these were cool cars, lifted and 4x4. Would love to have a clean one like this one. Any color would do really I think.

    00-7111982AMCEagleSX4.jpg

    Yes, agreed.  Would be a hell of a lo of fun in the hills here. 

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I told the man that this handwritten paper did not explain any of what I asked to verify and see, so they would need to properly print out or hand write all details in order for me to make a decision. The rep left and was gone for about 10 minutes and then came back with another salesperson who reminded me of a traditional wild west snake oil salesman who tried to use the same paper I was shown and yet tell me I was not able to understand the complexities of leases and should trust him on this awesome monthly cost. When I told him I would not accept that vague random info, he then moved into the terrible game of "What can you afford a month?" Here is where many people either give up and accept or leave as they feel overwhelmed, I on the other hand laughed and told him that I would not play his game. Show me the valid real numbers with a final price on the Lyriq before processing for the Lease monthly amount.  My wife always told me I was a very frustrating person when it came to buying an auto as I would push for facts and have on more than one occasion made salespeople cry when they could not get their way playing their monthly afford game. This is how people get ripped off and taken advantage of. The two folks left and came back with the sales manager who tried again with the paper to spin a different tale. At this point, I said fine, I would consider this as I needed to talk with the wife, and she would need to drive the auto anyway before we would buy.  Leaving the Cadillac dealership, I drove south to Chuck Olson Kia, figured I would see how the EV9 drove again and see what kind of deal I could get. Arriving at the dealership, I saw the EV9 I was interested in on the lot, looked it over and turned around to see if I can get some help and a young man greeted me and said he was with another customer, but would let another salesperson know I was looking at that EV9. Only a few minutes later, the sales rep came out, greeted me and had the keys so he opened up the EV and showed me the SUV.  Here the experience was similar in that we took the EV9 in Ice Green for a drive. As I drove it, I was informed about the various features and how they all worked. An overview that was enjoyable as I drove the near silent EV locally. I did notice that it was not as quiet as the Lyriq, but most would not really notice the difference, everything else on the road was far louder. We returned to the dealership and sat down; I asked the rep for the best price on this EV9 he could give me. He left to talk to his manager. Now I was comparing the price of the Lyriq Sport level 2 to this EV9 AWD Land edition and the MSRP price between the two was within a hundred dollars of each other. The EV9 had a number of features that the Lyriq did not have unless I paid substantially more and go to the top end Sport Level 3. At this point the Kia was winning on features giving it a better value due to the two being priced nearly the same. The sales rep came back to the table with a price that was $5,000 off MSRP. I felt based on internet searching that this was a fair price and felt it was good. I asked him then at this price with my IRA rebate of $7,500 what would a three-year lease with 15,000 miles a year cost me per month. The rep said give him a few minutes to have the manager put this in the system and he would come back with a detailed price for me. The salesperson returned about 10 minutes later with a Deal Sheet for me to review. Here is where the difference became clear between this Kia Dealership and the Cadillac Dealership. The Deal Sheet had all the numbers listed out clearly. Any person could walk through this in full understanding. The lease deal, started off with the Stock number for the EV9, had the MSRP listed, discount, then Selling price of the EV9. This was followed by a blank field for accessories or add on sales items as the sales rep explained. The rebate for $7,500 was clearly listed, blank space for Trade, cash cap reduction, license fee, doc fee ending in a final price of the EV that was then broken down by 36 months @ 15,000 miles a year for a Base monthly rental cost and then the sales tax on the whole deal which was broken down into monthly tax rate added to the monthly lease amount. Residual value at the end of the lease, a residual money factor that is a decimal number used to figure out the monthly lease rate. All in all, a very clear understandable deal and the monthly price for the EV9 was $837 per month compared to $1,200 plus for the Cadillac. I told the salesperson that I would need to talk to my wife when she got home tonight and would give him a call back. As I was getting ready to leave, I realized I had forgotten to ask an important question. Could the front driver and passenger windows be tinted to match the rest of the auto. Due to having had skin cancer, blocking out UV plus just having it darker is what I prefer. The sales rep said he believed so but would have to check with his manager and could call me if I gave him my number later. I left him my cell number and headed home. Sitting at home, I was thinking about the experience at the Cadillac dealership and wondering, can it really be that bad at any other dealership? So, I did a search and found the identical Cadillac Lyriq Sport 2 AWD Celestial Metallic at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership and much farther away at Larson Cadillac of Fife. Off to Bellevue I went. Arriving at the Bellevue Cadillac dealership, I was promptly greeted and professionally questioned on the auto I was interested in. The young man was always polite and more than happy to help me. This dealership is one of the newly built from the ground up dealerships that truly echo's Luxury and what I would expect from a luxury dealership. Due to the knowledge of the salesperson like the other dealership, it started off positive, went out to check and see if the auto their website stated they had on hand was actually there. It was, Identical to the one at Brotherton Cadillac NW in Shoreline Washington. At this point, I gave him the same info I had given the other person to see what the pricing would be. Ten minutes later he returned with a printed sheet of paper, that was better than handwritten. Had a set sale price that was a couple thousand off the MSRP, had a rebate of $1,000 showing a reduced price, document fee, licensing and a theft engraving that he said they do on all autos sold there so nothing I could do about not wanting it. The total at the end showed a lease money factor, term, mileage and residual with a base payment of $1,042 dollars. with no money down.  Now two things I noticed, one was that the IRA rebate was not showing anywhere on the paperwork and the second item was that at least their price was over $200 less than the other dealership. I inquired about the $7,500 rebate and he said he did not know and would go ask. Upon returning he said it was factored into the residual value of the Lyriq when I traded it back in. I pointed out that the rebate does not go into a value of the vehicle but is paid to the dealership and so comes off the price of the auto. Things continued to go downhill from here as I was told by him that I did not understand how leasing worked. His sales manager stopped by, and I pointed this out, same response, I do not understand how leasing works. I informed them that I would need to present this to my wife and discuss it with her. They attempted the pressure response of get her on the phone, we can explain it and you can drive home in your new EV. They were not happy with me and would not let me have the paperwork. When they stepped out to talk, I snapped a quick picture of the printed paperwork. Two Cadillac dealerships, two different lease prices on the identically spec / priced Lyriq Sport 2 and no honest showing of where the rebate would end up at.  Heading home this made me wonder about Cadillac and their EV focus which we have since learned in the news has changed to having ICE and EV through 2030 and beyond. At home, I explained my day of EV shopping to the wife, she was disappointed that Cadillac was not forthcoming with their pricing. She liked the looks of the Lyriq as much as the looks of the Kia EV9. At this point the phone rang, and it was the sales rep for Kia. He informed me that yes, the doors could be tinted and that his sales manager if we were willing to move forward with the deal would throw in the front window tinting. We setup an appointment for Saturday morning to go and test drive the EV9 with the wife to ensure she would be happy driving it. For full details on our EV9 Purchase read this story: Now at this point, I figured I would relax for the evening, but I got another phone call from a sales rep at Larson Cadillac who informed me that the Lyriq I was interested was already sold at their dealership, but he could make me another deal on a like existing Lyriq, different color. I informed him that my wife liked the 800V Lyriq in the Celestial Metallic. The man on the other end of the phone said he could see if they could do a trade to get what we were interested in, but he wanted me to understand that the Lyriq was not a true 800V EV. I was surprised by his comment and asked him why it was not a true 800V EV. I learned and have verified that the only EV GM makes that truly can handle 350 kW fast charging is the Hummers, the Lyriq has an 800V electrical system, but the battery packs are first generation and as such only rated at 400V meaning they have a top charging speed of 150 kW. GM is planning to roll out 800V battery packs starting with the Chevrolet and GMC full size pickups. All other EVs will continue to use the 400V battery packs for now. At this point, I thanked the man for his time and would think on it and get back to him. As a person wanting to be current, this takes me to the Kia EV9 only. I did not say anything to my wife about the tech and hoped she would be happy with how it drove. Luckily that was a success the next day. I have spent half my life on the sales side and in training new sales folks there is a pretty basic 5 step process in sales: 1) Greet the customer inquiring what brought them in today 2) Qualify the person on what they want 3) Trial close to see if they are ready 4) Clarify questions and overcome concerns 5) Close the Sale. To accomplish this basic 5 steps, you first have to fully train the individual in what they are selling. Here Cadillac clearly is not or possibly the dealerships are not wanting to ensure everyone know how to sell an EV. Recap of this whole shopping experience is that Kia is nailing it with a professional sales experience, knowledgeable people on their products and a sales / lease process that is clear hiding nothing from allowing you to commit to buying or leasing a new auto. 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      Permanent Car Spotters

      By ccap41 · Posted

      I stumbled upon a small meetup this weekend. There's a new custom/restoration shop about two blocks from my home and I was walking to a Casey's to grab a cake donut for my wife (hahaha) and this is right next to the Casey's.  This grey Chevelle was perfect, absolutely perfect. The plate is the name of the shop, Xtreme (restoration, bodywork, modification). I'm sure this is their show piece, and what a piece of work/art it is! I believe the van is theirs as well.  Later that day we ran to Aldi and came across the International Scout. it was far from mint condition, but it was "pretty good" but even cooler to see it just out and about. 

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