Opinion: The Family Sedan is now on the Endangered Species List

It is upsetting to be honest. I do love a sedan. And I do love my sedan. That said, as I said in the other thread, I scrape EVERYTHING in mine. It's so bad the front bumper has to be hit with my fist to push the seam in as it meets the headlight housing. I can't enter a single driveway apron without scraping.

And potholes... I'm not sure how the roads are outside of NY but you can't drive 10 feet without nailing a huge pothole. It's disgusting. Lately all I imagine is that 1990s Lexus commercial with the champagne classes stacked up going over a bumpy road failing on the current NY roads.

My parents were recently looking at the Rav4 and were told they'd likely have to wait 2-3 months for one. They weren't impressed with the CRV and felt it felt slightly cheap in terms of material quality, which surprised me.

I like the look of the Equinox, but I don't know about reliability, and it's likely near the end of its cycle as it's been out a while--that said I'm not looking to replace mine immediately. It's nice that I paid mine off quickly and don't have a payment.. especially since my rent went up $235/mo.

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Once the most common silhouette in the American automotive landscape, the 3-box sedan is rapidly becoming a niche market as buyers flock to crossovers. 

 

The coupe scenario is in even worse shape.  Large coupes were once popular and, for those who didn't need 4 doors, they functioned much like sedans in terms of mechanics, features, ride, reliability, etc.

This isn't about pull, but about push.  The consumer is not dictating what the market is putting out.  The manufacturer is deciding, and then a person is funneled to whatever is available.

As for the remaining sedans, the Malibu will be biting the dust.  And so will the Charger.  The loss of the Charger will be especially sad, since it's such a nice substantial car and an excellent value in base form.

The Camry may stick around but its looks need to be cleaned up, modernized, and/or toned down.  I believe the Passat is also gone, based on looking at the VW site.  I had come to like the Passat.  I was fueling my car a few days ago and was talking to the driver of a 5 year old Passat.  He really liked his car and said it has been very reliable.  VW continues to offer geared automatic transmissions, which is a big plus.  He was astonished to learn that the Passat may have come to the end of its journey.

Consumers do want sedans.  The manufacturers are not making them available to the extent to which there is a market for them.  That's how I read it.

Sad for those that like a car, but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

Shame the Kia sports car will not survive.

RIP cars.

2 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

I believe the Passat is also gone, based on looking at the VW site.

Passat production ended in summer 2021.

I liked this article.  Thank you for posting. It is true.  The only way now it seems to get a sedan is to buy used. It is sad that it has been dying a slow and painful death in the United States. They still have  sedans elsewhere especially in China and Europe. Some of the sedans that are dead here are alive in well in China: Ford Taurus, Lincoln Zephyr, Cadillac CT6, Buick LaCrosse and Buick Regal.  I know Volkswagen Passsat recently died too. 

Well, the race towards great crossover sales at the expense of sedans started at least seven years ago.  In a country of aging boomers with arthritic joints, the three-box sedan may well end up extinct by the end of the decade.  The sad times for the sedans are here.  Coupes are already DOA at this point.  Buyers are already paying a premium for crossovers; I do hope that they steer clear of even more expensive BOF SUVs.

14 hours ago, David said:

but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

That doesn't even make a difference with SUVs because they all ride on pretty low profile tires.

14 hours ago, David said:

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

Everything in this class has always been like that, imo. None of them have been or done anything special. 

23 hours ago, David said:

but at the rate states, counties and cities seem to ignore fixing and replacing worn out roads, the future seems to be trucks and SUVs.

What does that have to do with anything?

A pothole will just as easily break a CUV/SUVs suspension and wheels and wheel bearings and ball joints as it does sedans...

And as CCAP stated, most of the family hauling shytty CUVs/SUVs ride on car tires.  Their suspension systems are also sedan related. 

Even if you throw the Jeep Grand Cherokee at me, potholes eat these SUVs up as well.

The fullsized BOF SUVs from GM and Ford?

With all that heft?

Those just CONTRIBUTE to even shyttier roads...

David, honestly, get off that SUV high horse.  

You dont fit in the smaller sedans and that is cool. But just because you only fit it the bigger SUVs, dont knock the sedan just because you dont fit in a sedan.

Yes, people in North America have run away from the sedan. Yes one of the reasons is because the sedan has become small. But CUVs have bamboozled people in thinking that CUVs are bigger than their sedan counterparts. They are not. They are taller. Not bigger.  Taller also means ease of entry. But ease of entry does not mean bigger. 

Also, taller is somehow equated to being safer. Which is false false and more false.  

Higher center of gravity also means more chances of a roll over. We've been down THAT road before, and whether you believe that to be true or not does not make me care all that much. Why?  Because physics guides me.  I dont know what guides you if you dont believe in higher center of gravity CUVs actually have a more percentage of a roll over than a lower to the ground sedan...

You do you.  But dont be talking a smack game about CUVs and SUVs absorbing potholes better than sedans because that narration is pure bull. 

On 5/26/2022 at 8:40 PM, David said:

I do not get the attraction for people to buy the Camry or Accord, they are just lemming mobiles to me.

True. 

But being a lemming automobile like a Camry or an Accord is no different than being a lemming SUV like a Tahoe...  (Suburban has its merits...) 

But a Tahoe?

What is the attraction of a Tahoe?

What makes it so exciting?

Its not fast...  I mean its got a pretty powerful V8 up there, but it does have to lug around all that weight so it doesnt really accelerate with all that much gusto.  A V6 lemming of a Camry is pretty quick of the line.  Its not bad considering that V6 is ancient. But it does have 300 horses on a very very lighter frame. 

The Tahoe handles like a whale.  So does a Camry.    Now do you understand where Im going with the Tahoe bashing?

And unto a another SUV.  ANY SUV that hasnt been tuned by technological wizardry  performance makes like an AMG from Mercedes or M from BMW or a Porsche and Lamborghini SUV...

ANY CUV and SUV is the very definition of the word lemming... 

Now more so than ever.    At least in the 1980s, real SUVs were REAL enthusiast type of vehicles...

You see that K5?

Its covered in mud, right?

Today's Tahoe is covered in Starbucks coffee that the soccer mom spilled on it by being distracted by being on her smart phone Tik Toking a cleavage and a$$ selfie and posting it on Instagram...

18 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

But being a lemming automobile like a Camry or an Accord is no different than being a lemming SUV like a Tahoe...  (Suburban has its merits...) 

But a Tahoe?

What is the attraction of a Tahoe?

What makes it so exciting?

Its not fast... 

It isn't about excitement. Nearly none of the crossovers or SUVs within the spending range we're talking about here are exciting.  Friend of mine just got an X3... is it luxurious? sure. Is it comfortable? absolutely. But every slightly well-to-do 30-something has one or something like it. It's not exciting.

I didn't buy my Avalanche to be exciting either. I bought it for comfort and to be able to haul the bike.  0-60 is measured as "sufficient". It's got air shocks. It wallows around corners (so much so that I've thought about a stiffer sway bar).  BUT... I can put 8-10 hours behind the wheel in it with ease.

I'm not sure what it's like near you, but in my region, the roads and highways are horrible. I'd never want to daily an "exciting" car for that reason.  Heck on the bike I have to constantly scan the road for monster potholes and bob and weave around them. I know where all the frost heaves on the the way to work are so I can raise my ass up before I hit them.

It's really bad here.

There is really another big issue here.

Most of us here have advanced critical thinking skills and a critical eye when it comes to automobiles. (It's almost to an OCD level, if not already there!)

There's a fairly big difference with what can be done stylistically with 3 volumes than with 2 volumes.  It's a little harder to adhere to corporate branding and make SUVs/CUVs that are easier to differentiate from each other.

That said, automotive designers have quite a bit more stylistic leverage with sedans and coupes.  One only needs to think about some of the sedans and coupes that C&Gers love so much.

The Camry, Accord and Altima have global sales too, they will probably be around forever.  I think the small sedans may stick better since there aren't really many SUV's at the $20k price point.  It seems though that car companies just want to build high end models, and they can all go down that road, but someone won't and will get all the entry level market.  

The one thing that might bring sedans, or cars is EV's.  Because the range on these boxy SUVs will be bad, so you might see more sedans, or stuff like the Kia EV6 or even Model Y which are more like tall cars with the bar of soap shape

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It isn't about excitement. Nearly none of the crossovers or SUVs within the spending range we're talking about here are exciting.  Friend of mine just got an X3... is it luxurious? sure. Is it comfortable? absolutely. But every slightly well-to-do 30-something has one or something like it. It's not exciting.

I didn't buy my Avalanche to be exciting either. I bought it for comfort and to be able to haul the bike.  0-60 is measured as "sufficient". It's got air shocks. It wallows around corners (so much so that I've thought about a stiffer sway bar).  BUT... I can put 8-10 hours behind the wheel in it with ease.

I'm not sure what it's like near you, but in my region, the roads and highways are horrible. I'd never want to daily an "exciting" car for that reason.  Heck on the bike I have to constantly scan the road for monster potholes and bob and weave around them. I know where all the frost heaves on the the way to work are so I can raise my ass up before I hit them.

It's really bad here.

Absolutely.

Whatever you said is so right.

But a Camry is quite comfortable as well.   Maybe not for David. Its too small for him.

But what makes a Camry a Lemming (for him) and NOT a Tahoe, Grand Cherokee, GMT 360 Trailblazer (non SS model) as such?

Especially with the amount of sales CUVs and SUVs are getting from North Americans the last decade. Sheeple are following other sheeple and buying CUV/SUVs because these sheeple think CUV/SUVs are safer, more bigger to haul stuff, more comfortable yada yada yada.   All not true when compared to their sedan equivalent counterparts.

A Camry was NEVER an exciting vehicle in its entire existence. What family hauling sedan is?  Was a family hauling sedan ever an exciting vehicle?  

The point is, CUV/SUVs dont do well in potholes either.  They break just like sedans do in potholes.

Point is, a Camry hauls just as much stuff as its CUV counterpart. I believe its the Highlander. The only thing the Highlander does better than the Camry is that hatch. It opens up big and tall as compared to the Camry's trunk. But as far as passengers go, same.  The Highlander makes it easier to for people to get in and out of as compared to the Camry, but the Camry has a waaaaay lower risk of a roll over.  Roll overs are lethal for the passengers inside. 

Potholes were I come from are brutal too. It dont matter if a car has airshocks, the kinds of potholes we have to deal with makes airshocks a moot point. Unless these airshocks are of the intelligent kind where a camera and a sensor see a pothole before the tires hit it and adjust the suspension travel while passing over the pothole.  Point is, to counter what Dave said, people wont buy  a CUV/SUV over a sedan because potholes are brutal.  Potholes are brutal equally for sedans as for CUV/SUVs.

Exciting cars do have stiffer suspensions, and when not equipped by magnetic shocks, do have an uncomfortable ride. 

Problem is, throughout North America's history of the automobile and hauling families, exciting cars have NEVER had a prominent sales advantage over the mundane. That is true for any decade and its true for any type of vehicle, sedan, CUV or otherwise.  Average Joe dad and mom simply dont buy exciting vehicles to haul their families around. In fact, average joe moms and dads buy lemming vehicles because average joe moms and dads are lemmings themselves... 

Dave does own a GMT360 V8 powered rocket SUV.  But he also owns a very comfortable Escalade. The Escalade is not a lemming vehicle and the Trailblazer SS is  not either.  However, the Escalade's cousin, the Tahoe and the SS's brother, the lesser Trailblazer, these are vehicles that are as boring as they can get.  A V6 Camry could actually be funner to drive...   The Tahoe might perform better in potholes, as the Escalade as far as comfort goes, but BOTH Trailblazers will punish its occupants, ESPECIALLY the SS, and both Trailblazer trims WILL break suspension parts if the pothole is not avoided or hit in a specific way especially at a higher speed if the driver is not vigilant.  And a sudden evasive movement and especially the GMT360, non SS, and it WILL roll over... 

This is all Im saying. 

My disdain for CUVs and SUVs goes beyond the realm of excitement...

My disdain for these vehicles also include the false narrative of CUVs that CUVs are more comfortable than sedans, safer, yada yada yada.

The fact that CUVs also restrict and discourage enthusiastic driving by means of higher center of gravity, unnecessary heft and weight and crappy weight distribution also contributes to this.

A Camry may wallow, but you could still toss it around. It will squeal, and complain, but it will do it.  It will have heavy understeer. But it will do it.    A CUV WILL topple over...    Again, not including the performance oriented CUVs that rely on electronic technological wizardry to keep that top heavy $h! box from toppling over. 

8 hours ago, smk4565 said:

I think the small sedans may stick better since there aren't really many SUV's at the $20k price point.  It seems though that car companies just want to build high end models, and they can all go down that road, but someone won't and will get all the entry level market.  

That’s because, after you take away shared components, it costs just as much to engineer and design a Corolla as it does a RAV-4, but the RAV-4 sells for twice as much, so Toyota has to build many more Corollas to make the same profit.

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

That’s because, after you take away shared components, it costs just as much to engineer and design a Corolla as it does a RAV-4, but the RAV-4 sells for twice as much, so Toyota has to build many more Corollas to make the same profit.

Same with GM and Ford, which is why both have essentially ditched the sedans, outside of Lincoln and Cadillac, for CUVs and SUVs.

13 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

Same with GM and Ford, which is why both have essentially ditched the sedans, outside of Lincoln and Cadillac, for CUVs and SUVs.

Of course. It applies to all brands.

The most drastic example I can think of is the Sonic/Trax/Encore. The Sonic sold in the $13k-$22k range. The Trax started at $21k and went up from there. The Encore started around $25k and my loaded top trim one was $34k.

They’re all the same platform and they are identical mechanically +/- AWD. 
 

From an R&D perspective the costs would be nearly identical. The Buick gets nicer leather, bigger wheels, and extra sound deadening, but aside from that, even assembly costs would be nearly identical as well.  GM probably had to sell 6 to 10 Sonics to make the same profit as one highly trimmed Encore.

CUVs and SUVs sell at a higher MSRP than their sedan counterparts because THAT is what the market dictates and hence  why the higher profit margins.

But when sedans all go away, and there is nothing left BUT CUVs and SUVs, and there is a market adjustment in pricing for AFFORDABLE CUVs and SUVs, there WILL be CHEAPER priced CUV offerings. These cheaper CUV offerings will NOW take the place of the Corolla scenario...  

And if sedans DO make a comeback, they will probably command a higher price tag than their CUV counterpart reversing the scenario we have now...

*SIGH*

There is nothing new about all this.   Its automotive business 101.

What I dont understand is (aside from the downsizing of sedans) is how we got a whole phoquing continent to stop buying cars in favor of a lesser, unsafer, shyttier riding, less capable in hauling shyte CUVs...   

Less capable in hauling...

YES!!!

Less capable in hauling.

Aside from the hatchback style opening, the back end does NOT fit MORE cargo. It fits maybe TALLER stuff, but NOT more stuff.

Equinox back end

Seats up...NOT down.  What good does it make it for the seats to be down?  Going on a trip with the family, where will the phoquing kids sit if the seats are down?  

Previous gen Malibu

This gen Malibu

A sedan based station wagon was even BETTER in hauling crap in the back...

And this is true for ALL sedans versus their EQUIVALENT CUV counterparts.

I owned a 2007 Ford Edge and a 2005 Impala SS.   I moved from one house that I owned and sold to a new and current house I own now with these two cars.  I fit more boxes in the Impala, seats down, than with the Edge, with the seats down.  I put the TALLER boxes in the Edge, duh, but I fit more boxes in the Impala.  And the Edge was a wider CUV than most in its class. The Edge was probably shorter than the Impala.  Shorter wheelbase too.  But it was a taller vehicle. It might have even been wider too.  The rear cargo was humongous. Cavernous.  But the Impala actually had a bigger...trunk.   And THAT phenom is actually true across the board with the sedans versus their CUV counterparts. 

But...sedans have become too sporty and that the profile is more coupe like killing the benefits of hauling stuff with a sedan.  But that is an attempt to spruce up the sedan sales. THAT didnt work, duh, as sedans are supposed to haul families, sealing the sedans fate faster to die. 

But I wanna know: 

When in the hell did people get soooooo stupid and bamboozled by this crap narrative that CUVs haul more stuff?

Taller stuff, yes. NOT more stuff...

14 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

CUVs and SUVs sell at a higher MSRP than their sedan counterparts because THAT is what the market dictates and hence  why the higher profit margins.

But when sedans all go away, and there is nothing left BUT CUVs and SUVs, and there is a market adjustment in pricing for AFFORDABLE CUVs and SUVs, there WILL be CHEAPER priced CUV offerings. These cheaper CUV offerings will NOW take the place of the Corolla scenario...  

And if sedans DO make a comeback, they will probably command a higher price tag than their CUV counterpart reversing the scenario we have now...

*SIGH*

There is nothing new about all this.   Its automotive business 101.

What I dont understand is (aside from the downsizing of sedans) is how we got a whole phoquing continent to stop buying cars in favor of a lesser, unsafer, shyttier riding, less capable in hauling shyte CUVs...   

Less capable in hauling...

YES!!!

Less capable in hauling.

Aside from the hatchback style opening, the back end does NOT fit MORE cargo. It fits maybe TALLER stuff, but NOT more stuff.

Equinox back end

 

Seats up...NOT down.  What good does it make it for the seats to be down?  Going on a trip with the family, where will the phoquing kids sit if the seats are down?  

Previous

 

gen Malibu

 

This gen Malibu

 

A sedan based station wagon was even BETTER in hauling crap in the back...

When in the hell did people get soooooo stupid and bamboozled by this crap narrative? 

I wish I had taken pictures of all the times I hauled just a pure ton of crap in my old Magnum for eight years. Now, to be fair, there were times where the height of certain loads were an issue and made the Magnum useless but the other 98% if the time, it could haul plenty of stuff plus seat five (although four more comfortably). At the time of purchase, back in 2008, the dealership was trying to get me into a 2005 Tahoe for not much more money but with gas being outrageous at the time ($4.49 a gallon in Prescott, AZ at the time, deja vu) and me driving 50 miles round trip to work daily, that was not going to be a good plan for me and I am glad I bought the Magnum instead. It did most of what I needed, day in and day out, without killing me at the pump and was also just a cooler looking ride, in my "not so biased" opinion lol. Wagons have taken $h! rap in this country, all the while folks are just driving tall wagons while thumbing their noses at the mere mention of the word "wagon". It's right up there with "van" for most folks these days and that has never made any sense to me. 

Alas, yet another car fad.

I wanna know when in the hell did people get bamboozled in thinking that CUVs are safer?

Light tap from the back sends this CUV rolling over

Sedan loses controll, hits barriers, still upright. Hits crossover pickup truck from Honda, sedan still upright, crossover pick up truck...rolls over...

Slow speed, hits a car....rolls over

4 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

 

Let's not underestimate sedan trunks.

One of my friend's brothers would borrow his parents' full-size Pontiac, stuff a few people in the trunk, and drive up to and through the box office booths at the drive-in.  Just one person.  In a big Pontiac.  And, once this big Pontiac was parked, he opened the trunk and let his friends out. 

It's not too smart to begin with.  But wouldn't it also look weird to nearby parked cars that the trunk of this big car pops open and teenagers start climbing out of it?

On 5/26/2022 at 9:58 PM, Drew Dowdell said:

Passat production ended in summer 2021.

I suspect the Arteon will be gone soon also..I read they only sold 47 or so in the first quarter of 2022 in the US.

Of course, there was also a time when sedans had truly cavernous trunks. My 81 Toronado trunk was considered “personal” (read: small) back when it was new, but I can fit two adult bicycles back there when I take the front tires off and still close it. It would be larger if not for the funky way the spare is mounted. My 85 Continental was double the size and my 83 Caprice was larger still. I moved in and out of my dorm in the Caprice and Continental.

34 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I suspect the Arteon will be gone soon also..I read they only sold 47 or so in the first quarter of 2022 in the US.

Oddly, they just announced a refresh for it and it’s finally getting an appropriate engine with 300hp.

The Arteon has a "high" price point.   They start in the low $40s.  They needed to cover the middle ground between Jetta and Arteon, in the high $20s.

10 hours ago, trinacriabob said:

The Arteon has a "high" price point.   They start in the low $40s.  They needed to cover the middle ground between Jetta and Arteon, in the high $20s.

I guess the 'middle ground' is where the Tiguan fits in.     At this rate, the Accord, Altima and Camry will be the last midsize family sedans available.   

On 5/28/2022 at 9:27 AM, oldshurst442 said:

I wanna know when in the hell did people get bamboozled in thinking that CUVs are safer?

Light tap from the back sends this CUV rolling over

 

Sedan loses controll, hits barriers, still upright. Hits crossover pickup truck from Honda, sedan still upright, crossover pick up truck...rolls over...

 

Slow speed, hits a car....rolls over

 

Yes, High center vehicles that have poor drivers can easily flip as well as cars.

Like @Drew Dowdell stated about why he bought his Avalanche, I bought my Escalade for comfort of road trips and for helping my kids as they moved from home to apartments, then into their own homes and can say that my Escalade ESV and GMC Suburban carry lots of stuff. I have also carried plenty of sheetrock and wood in the Suburban for my home remodel projects, after all 5ft wide by 10ft long interior when all seats are down or removed for the second and third row gives plenty of space. I have also had plenty of space for road trips for luggage and other stuff in the far back.

I admit, not everyone can afford the gas bill that my full size SUVs or my fun SS requires, fueling up the SS yesterday was a $100 bill for Premium of just 17 gallons.

Thank you Olds for making me think about my rides as I know I am a far more aggressive driver than many, but still consider myself to be a aggressive defensive driver and as such, apply the engineering to my auto's in making sure they can handle the way I drive.

As such, my 1994 Suburban has a custom built 402 V8, matching custom jet chip, custom transmission and 425 custom posi-lock rear differential on top of I changed out the suspension from the OEM default to a 1 ton coils in front and leaf springs in back. I also as my picture shows in my album here have 20 low profile tires and have had no problem doing 80 mph on the clover leaf on and off ramps of our freeway system with no body roll. I tend to make sure my SUVs handle the way I would expect a sports car to handle and as such, tend to forget the customization I have done to my rides.

That all takes into the laws of physics that many never think about in how a taller auto would handle aggressive driving.

With that stated, we have to also point out the idiots driving in your gif images who clearly were driving distracted or just plan too stupid to be looking down the road on what all is going on.

Driving is a privilege that seems to have been forgotten in the push for votes by the politicians as today when I ran some errands, it was very clear there are plenty of people that should not be driving on the road.

Back in January of this year there was this story written: Lincoln Now Sells More Product in China Than U.S. - The Truth About Cars

It made me realize that two things could very well happen of which I believe is already true on the CUV front.

1. Chinese building and selling autos in America is real, look at Buick.
2. Cars very well can survive as they are imported into North America from China and other low labor cost countries for select brand names. Lincoln is one as is Cadillac.

Over all, good debate, great points you make and I enjoy the banter. Hope your having a relaxing weekend.