Experimental engine installation

[Jamie]

Here's a photograph of the engine bay for an experimental high performance model of a production car.

Who built it, and what's unusual about the engine?

[NOS2006]

Dude, that's weird. I don't even know what to make of that picture. It looks like a I6 put in there transversely, but the pulleys are on the side of the block, making it seem like the crank would be perpendicular to the engine. That's confusing as hell.

[Jamie]

Believe me, it's simultaneously one of the weirdest and most clever engine installations I've seen in a long time.

Even with details of the engine setup it still took me a while to figure out what they'd done to get it all to work.

[91z4me]

I am pretty sure it is a Corvair with a flat 6, but I think it looks like a roots supercharger on the engine.

[balthazar]

That's no flat six.

Looks like two inline 3-cylinder flatheads, each driving one front wheel. There's individual ignition, exhaust & cooling for each motor. I don't think they're neccessarily connected to each other; it must be that the belt drives are 'right-angled' out to the side in order to fit. What it's in I have no idea- something about the inner fenders says either '40s U.S. or '60s european. I await details of how the transmission(s) are set up...

[Camino LS6]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that it is a rear-engined car from Germany and has an early version of a CVT or CVTs that each send power to one rear wheel. Could be used to provide power to each rear wheel individually in order to "throw" the car into a turn.

Just some first impressions.

[Hudson]

That's no flat six.

Looks like two inline 3-cylinder flatheads, each driving one front wheel. There's individual ignition, exhaust & cooling for each motor. I don't think they're neccessarily connected to each other; it must be that the belt drives are 'right-angled' out to the side in order to fit. What it's in I have no idea- something about the inner fenders says either '40s U.S. or '60s european. I await details of how the transmission(s) are set up...

210286[/snapback]

Oh! That's the Saab 6-cylinder from the mid-1960s!

[balthazar]

Is that right? A mid-'60s flathead?? Huh. Even MoPar dumped theirs after '60.

Those progressive saab engineers; I knew I should've given the 'born from jets' tagline more credit.

[Jamie]

Oh! That's the Saab 6-cylinder from the mid-1960s!

210436[/snapback]

Correct, it's an experimental 6 cylinder SAAB from 1959. The engine is installed in the front of a lightened 1958 SAAB 93.

Now for the tricky part of the question ... "What's unusual about the engine?"

(and BTW, it's not a flathead)

Is that right? A mid-'60s flathead?? Huh. Even MoPar dumped theirs after '60.

Those progressive saab engineers; I knew I should've given the 'born from jets' tagline more credit.

210547[/snapback]

You definitely "should've given the 'born from jets' tagline more credit". On a speed test on an airport runway, this tiny 'born from jets' car did 196 km/hr before they had to back off when it's aircraft influenced aerodynamics caused it to try to leave the ground.

[Drew Dowdell]

Now for the tricky part of the question ... "What's unusual about the engine?"

(and BTW, it's not a flathead)

210559[/snapback]

2-stroke? People are thinking it's a flathead because they don't see anything involving a valve train, but that's really because there is none.

[Jamie]

Yep, it's a 2 stroke ... but that's still not the "unusual feature" of the engine.

Here's a hint. The car uses a strengthened version of the standard SAAB 93 transaxle ... and NOS2006 was very close to having the correct answer.

[ocnblu]

It's very unusual to see a radiator behind the engine. Must have a serious cowl vent situation. That's what made me think it was a rear-engine car, because of airflow concerns... it seems with engine heat blowing back onto the radiator it would be that much harder to engineer an effective cooling system.

Once this is settled, James, could you please post more pictures of this little beast?

Edited October 31, 2006 by ocnblu

[Jamie]

The later models of the replacement SAAB 96 had a lengthened hood and the radiator was relocated to the conventional position in front of the engine.

Have no fear, I'll post more images once this is settled.

But in the mean time, here's what a SAAB 93 looked like:

[ocnblu]

You've gotta be kidding... that's an early Subaru! :AH-HA_wink:

Ha, but yeah, that is a classic SAAB, for sure.

[Jamie]

You've gotta be kidding... that's an early Subaru! :AH-HA_wink:

210631[/snapback]

I'd have given credit for "an early Daihatsu".

SAAB occasionally fitted their prototypes with Daihatsu badging when they needed to do public road testing in Sweden.

[ocnblu]

Nah, that was a lame reference to Subaru's shortlived "retro SAAB" face, as seen on the B9 Tribeca, and in a toned-down form on the Impreza. I understand that with GM's divestiture, Subaru has abandoned that style.

[Camino LS6]

I should have thought of Saab, I remember a bunch of 2-stroke Saabs screaming around the track at a vintage race, it sounded like a chainsaw race.

[the_yellow_dart]

lol @ the idea of a chainsaw race!!

[Jamie]

I should have thought of Saab, I remember a bunch of 2-stroke Saabs screaming around the track at a vintage race, it sounded like a chainsaw race.

210755[/snapback]

Coming soon to a theater near you, The Trollhättan Chainsaw Massacre.

[Camino LS6]

Coming soon to a theater near you, The Trollhättan Chainsaw Massacre. 

210941[/snapback]

:rotflmao:

[FAPTurbo]

Coming soon to a theater near you, The Trollhättan Chainsaw Massacre. 

210941[/snapback]

And there you have it folks... that's where Ikea's meatballs come from...................

[Jamie]

Another photograph of the engine installation.

[aaaantoine]

Does it have something to do with the way the transmission is mounted?

[Drew Dowdell]

It's completely in front of the front wheels, it looks as if it has it's flywheel between the two banks of cylinders,

is it a chain drive?

[Jamie]

Does it have something to do with the way the transmission is mounted?

211426[/snapback]

Yes. The coupling of the engine to the gearbox, and the engine gearbox relationship is the really bizarre part of the setup.

It's completely in front of the front wheels, it looks as if it has it's flywheel between the two banks of cylinders,

is it a chain drive?

211429[/snapback]

It is quite possible that it has a flywheel between the banks of cylinders (though I'm not sure, and it could be an unused feature of the standard SAAB engine block casting), but it's not a chain drive. However, the engine assembly is mounted ahead of the axle line and the gearbox/transaxle is behind the engine.

[Jamie]

The SAAB 93 that it's based on has a 748 cc two-stroke, three cylinder engine mounted north-south and coupled to a transaxle that drives the front wheels.

[Jamie]

Since people seem to have run out of ideas, here are the details on the experimental SAAB engine installation.

The vehicle is known as the SAAB Monster, and can be found in the SAAB Museum in Trollhättan.

For the SAAB Monster, the engineers transversely mounted two SAAB 93 type three cylinder engines in the engine bay. The engines both face the same direction and are joined by a gearbox that is located in the space between the two engines. This gearbox has a right angle output shaft that connects to a beefed up version of a SAAB 93 clutch and transaxle located in the same orientation and location as the transaxle in the stock SAAB 93 models (have a look at the transaxle location in the SAAB 93 image in my previous post). The engine joining gearbox also has an auxiliary output shaft that goes forward to provide drive for the two distributors and an equivalent to a "crank pulley" that provides a "v" belt drive to the rear mounted radiator cooling fan (and I assume a pair of water pumps). This type of engine with an output located in the middle of the engine is technically known as a split inline.

SAAB 93 Wiki entry

SAAB 'Monster' Wiki entry

A few years later, SAAB attempted another dual engine installation using a pair of Ford V4 engines mounted side by side in the engine bay.

[Drew Dowdell]

that thing must understeer like a sonofabitch

[Jamie]

that thing must understeer like a sonofabitch

212546[/snapback]

Yep. Light weight, excess power, serious understeer, and aerodynamics that result in a rear end that gets airborne at speed ... A great combination.