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carman21

Buick & Pontiac

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Okay, before you read this hold your breath. Then, relax and breath easily. This is a radical yet possible idea to rebuild Pontiac and Buick. Remember that these are just ideas and reflect little in fact.

Pontiac and Buick will both see major reform but, Pontiac will be altered significantly. Pontiac will be a youth niche brand in the mold of Scion. Buick will be the second broadest brand behind Chevrolet in the model of Toyota. GMC would target Toyota trucks. Here's how it could go down if this were to happen.

2007 will be the last year for the Buick Rainier, Rendevous, and Terraza and the Pontiac Vibe.

2008 will be the last year for the G6, Grand Prix, and LaCrosse and will be the final year for the front drive Lucerne until it goes on Zeta for 2009. The Torrent prepares to be renewed with an all-new model for 2009.

Now onto new or updated models.

2007 is the first year of production for the Pontiac G5. This car appears to be a good albeit less flashy alternative to the Scion tC. Despite its simple badge-job status, it is a great car and it will do well.

2008 will be a year of change for these brands. Buick will get an all-new compact based on the all-new Toyota Corolla and will be called the Buick Excelle. Buick will get the all-new Enclave crossover the price will start around $31k.

2009 will be a banner year with tremdous changes in this channel.

-Pontiac will get a new Torrent that is based on the Saturn Vue SWB Theta.

-Pontiac will get an all-new updated version of the G5 via a Cobalt update, expect a better differentiation between the Cobalt and the G5.

-The Opel Corsa is imported as the Pontiac G2 3-door & 5-door and will target the Scion xA & the Toyota Yaris hatchback.

Buick will be dramatically different for 2009.

-First, the Lucerne will go on the RWD Zeta platform. The 3.6L V-6 models will take on the Toyota Avalon while the V-8 GS model will take on the Chrysler 300 SRT8.

-The Buick Allure will be based on the same updated Epsilon platform as the Malibu & Aura. The Allure will have be modeled after the Camry and Solara similar to how the 2008 Malibu followed the Sonata.

-The Buick Siginia is a Buick version of the LWB Theta platform and is modeled after the Toyota Highlander.

This is Pontiac in 2009.

G2 3dr/5dr hatchback

1.4L 108hp I-4

SE $12k GT $13k SLE $14k

G5 coupe

2.4L 180hp I-4

SE $16k GT $17k SLE $18k

Vibe wagon

1.8L 146hp I-4

SE $16k GT $17k SLE $18k

Torrent compact crossover

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

SE $20k GT $22k SLE $24k

SE V-6 $24k GT V-6 $26k SLE $28k

This is Buick in 2009.

Excelle sedan

1.8L 146hp I-4

CX $16k CXS $17k CXL $18k

Allure sedan/coupe/convert.

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $20k CXS $22k CXL $24k

CX V-6 $24k CXS V-6 $26k CXL V-6 $28k

Lucerne sedan

3.6L 275hp V-6

6.0L 430hp V-8

CX $28k CXS $32k CXL $36k GS $40k

Signia midsize crossover

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $24k CXS $26k CXL $28kk

CX V-6$28k CXS V-6$30k CXL V-6 $32k

Enclave full-size crossover

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $32k CXS $35k CXL $38k

So, if you can get past the death of the G6,Vibe, Grand Prix, and GTO and these brands could be transformed into a serious challege to Toyota. Chevrolet will still retain its traditional role as GM's volume brand and it will easily outsell PBG. However, the more sophisticated buyers that default to Toyota will only be dragged away by sophisticated Buicks not Chevys.

I see Gen-Xers being attracted to Saturn. I see Pontiac attracting Gen-Yers. I see Buick/GMC attract back boomers to GM. Finally, Chevy and Cadillac/Hummer will both attract a broad spectrum of buyers.

Well, then again I could be totally wrong.

Edited by carman21

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Okay, before you read this hold your breath. Then, relax and breath easily. This is a radical yet possible idea to rebuild Pontiac and Buick. Remember that these are just ideas and reflect little in fact.

Pontiac and Buick will both see major reform but, Pontiac will be altered significantly. Pontiac will be a youth niche brand in the mold of Scion. Buick will be the second broadest brand behind Chevrolet in the model of Toyota. GMC would target Toyota trucks. Here's how it could go down if this were to happen.

2007 will be the last year for the Buick Rainier, Rendevous, and Terraza and the Pontiac Vibe.

2008 will be the last year for the G6, Grand Prix, and LaCrosse and will be the final year for the front drive Lucerne until it goes on Zeta for 2009. The Torrent prepares to be renewed with an all-new model for 2009.

Now onto new or updated models.

2007 is the first year of production for the Pontiac G5. This car appears to be a good albeit less flashy alternative to the Scion tC. Despite its simple badge-job status, it is a great car and it will do well.

2008 will be a year of change for these brands. Buick will get an all-new compact based on the all-new Toyota Corolla and will be called the Buick Excelle. Buick will get the all-new Enclave crossover the price will start around $31k.

2009 will be a banner year with tremdous changes in this channel.

-Pontiac will get a new Torrent that is based on the Saturn Vue SWB Theta.

-Pontiac will get an all-new updated version of the G5 via a Cobalt update, expect a better differentiation between the Cobalt and the G5.

-The Opel Corsa is imported as the Pontiac G2 3-door & 5-door and will target the Scion xA & the Toyota Yaris hatchback.

Buick will be dramatically different for 2009.

-First, the Lucerne will go on the RWD Zeta platform. The 3.6L V-6 models will take on the Toyota Avalon while the V-8 GS model will take on the Chrysler 300 SRT8.

-The Buick Allure will be based on the same updated Epsilon platform as the Malibu & Aura. The Allure will have be modeled after the Camry and Solara similar to how the 2008 Malibu followed the Sonata.

-The Buick Siginia is a Buick version of the LWB Theta platform and is modeled after the Toyota Highlander.

This is Pontiac in 2009.

G2 3dr/5dr hatchback

1.4L 108hp I-4

SE $12k GT $13k SLE $14k

G5 coupe

2.4L 180hp I-4

SE $16k GT $17k SLE $18k

Vibe wagon

1.8L 146hp I-4

SE $16k GT $17k SLE $18k

Torrent compact crossover

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

SE $20k GT $22k SLE $24k

SE V-6 $24k GT V-6 $26k SLE $28k

This is Buick in 2009.

Excelle sedan

1.8L 146hp I-4

CX $16k CXS $17k CXL $18k

Allure sedan/coupe/convert.

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $20k CXS $22k CXL $24k

CX V-6 $24k CXS V-6 $26k CXL V-6 $28k

Lucerne sedan

3.6L 275hp V-6

6.0L 430hp V-8

CX $28k CXS $32k CXL $36k GS $40k

Signia midsize crossover

2.4L 180hp I-4

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $24k CXS $26k CXL $28kk

CX V-6$28k CXS V-6$30k CXL V-6 $32k

Enclave full-size crossover

3.6L 275hp V-6

CX $32k CXS $35k CXL $38k

So, if you can get past the death of the G6,Vibe, Grand Prix, and GTO and these brands could be transformed into a serious challege to Toyota. Chevrolet will still retain its traditional role as GM's volume brand and it will easily outsell PBG. However, the more sophisticated buyers that default to Toyota will only be dragged away by sophisticated Buicks not Chevys.

I see Gen-Xers being attracted to Saturn. I see Pontiac attracting Gen-Yers. I see Buick/GMC attract back boomers to GM. Finally, Chevy and Cadillac/Hummer will both attract a broad spectrum of buyers.

Well, then again I could be totally wrong.

227926[/snapback]

No offence intended, but I hate the idea. You're suggesting moving both brands downmarket, and making them less like the niche players GM is making them. Buick is near-luxury, as evidenced by the new Enclave and to a lesser extent, LaCrosse and Lucerne. Pontiac is sporty, as evidenced by GTO, forthcoming G8, and GM's plans to make it RWD-only.

It's much easier to convert them into near-luxury and cut-price Beemer, respectively, than to make them into some kind of Scion-beater and Honda (?) rival.

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Sorry, but I hate the idea too. A compact, Toyota...Corolla based Buick...I pray to gods no.

Destroy Pontiac once it for all by making it a Scion competitor? Please No.

Edited by Dodgefan

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Buick has a myth that it is a near-luxury brand. Aside from the Park Avenue, there have been no other Buicks that could be considered true luxury cars. The Lucerne is too big to be a direct ES competitor and it lacks a modern powerful V-6. Buick would be better served comparing the Lucerne to the Avalon. Still yet the Avalon has a better V-6 and transmission, more options and has more expensive V-6 models than the Lucerne. The Enclave will have similar problems being compared to a RX, the enclave is a great crossover but, it is way too big to be comparable and it will priced at least $5k less than the smaller RX. The Enclave is just a more efficient Full-size SUV a comparable alternative to the Yukon. The LaCrosse when on epsilon will take on the Camry a heck of a lot better than anything else from Acura or Lexus.

So called Buick fans claim that it is sacrilege for any Buick to offer a 4-cylinder engine and/or a compact car. May be 20 years ago it was stupid to offer the terrible badge job Skyhawk but, today compacts are hot. A Corolla-based Buick would be a totally different car from the Cobalt sedan so Buick’s compact could look far more upscale. Buick’s traditional older buyers are switching to compacts in droves. Have you not been wondering how even before gas prices went up that Corolla sales have doubled to rival the Camry’s. The reason is that young people often prefer compacts over larger cars as their first cars is that they have lower incomes and college debt and seniors need more fuel efficient cars due to fixed incomes. So, a Buick without compacts avoids gaining the young into the Buick fold and loses seniors to other automakers. Tell me how Buick can survive when they refuse to create an entry point for younger costumers and an exit point for seniors before they stop driving.

Buick needs a midsize sedan and coupe with a two engines an I-4 & V-6. Buick has the quality and the ability to sell a great alternative to the Camry. May be Buick doesn’t need the CXS version; I’ll leave that to the G6. The G6 would have models to take on the Camry CE, SE, & SE V-6. The G6 coupe/convert would take on the Solara SE & SE V-6.

Perhaps instead of gutting Pontiac we could produce the G6 as the sporty alternative to the Allure. Pontiac can keep the Vibe but, Buick still keeps the Excelle.

Pontiac’s Car Line-up

G2 5dr wagon

G5 coupe

Vibe wagon

G6 sedan/coupe/convt

Is this better?

Buick’s Car Line-up

Excelle sedan

Allure sedan/coupe/convt

Lucerne sedan

This Buick Line-up seems reasonable enough.

The GTO is not coming back. I know it’s sad to say but, it is not. Thank the Camaro for that one. The Solstice will remain the only RWD Pontiac. A G8 is a sick joke, it will only hurt Buick or force Buick to up market itself into extinction. Pontiac will never go RWD entirely ever in the next decade if it ever does. Pontiac should provide a youth alternative to Mazda & Scion. Honda is more like Toyota.

The Pontiac G2 will take on the Scion XA, Honda Fit, & Nissan Versa.

Looks Like a great Pontiac

The Pontiac G5 will take on the Scion tC, Honda Civic coupe, etc.

The Pontiac Vibe will take on the Toyota Matrix and Mazda 3 5-dr

2008 Toyota Matrix, Looks like a good Vibe.

The Pontiac G6 will take on the Mazda 6, Mitsu Galant /Eclipse, & Toyota Camry/Solara CE/SE/SE V-6

The Buick Excelle takes on the Toyota Corolla, Honda Civic, and Nissan Sentra.

This car can't be turned into a Buick?

2008 Corolla Shot 1

2008 Corolla Shot 2

2008 Corolla Shot 3

2008 Corolla Shot 4

I think the Buick Excelle would be the best compact sedan in its class, bar none.

The Buick Allure takes on the Toyota Camry/Solara, Honda Accord, and Nissan Altima.

The Malibu will make a great basis for a Buick

The Buick Lucerne takes on the Toyota Avalon & Nissan Maxima.

Zeta Anyone?

Well, I hope this cools some heads. This is my more moderate alternative. I’m just promoting debate on the future of these “damaged” brands. Realize that Buick and Pontiac will both sell much better under my plan.

Edited by carman21

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Well, let's just remember just because, we are not bringing back GM of the 1960s doesn't mean that an idea that will save two important brands after one major GM brand died because, it refused t recognize the realities of the modern car market.

If GM does not start building cars and brands for the real world market of the 2000s and get over that the 1960s are dead and buried. As long as GM and GM fans remain obsessed with relics of a long ago age GM will continue to become a relic of a long ago age. There is a reason Toyota has been devastating GM other than Toyota is brainwashing people. I plan continuing my GM loyalty until the ship goes down, if it does. I tell you something if GM doesn't start building cars that are actually competitive with Toyota & Honda. Toyota will become the only choice for more and more Americans. That is more terrifying than building a Buick compact based on a Corolla.

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Unless gasoline goes to $5.00/gallon or the Democrats raise CAFE to 40 mpg, I see no need for 4 cylinder Buicks. Buick is GM's division for people who like traditional American cars. GM offers plenty of other options for economy buyers.

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Without question the worst blueprint I have ever seen for a new Buick/Pontiac lineup. It is a fleet of uninspired mediocrity at best. :nono:

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Guest YellowJacket894

Why don't you just come out and say it: you want Buick and Pontiac gone for good.

Sorry, but after knowing what those divisions have in store, that is a proposition that I support in no way possible.

A Corolla-based Buick? Disgusting. :nono:

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Ahhh! I give up! I'm not even gonna try to continue to defend this wholly foolish argument fro this plan. May this would be good only if GM Killed off Chevy & Saturn, otherwise its just plain stupid. The scary part is that this is a business model that some dumba$$ bean-counter could find attractive.

Do you see how easy this business plan could be used by some stupid GM executive? I surely, pray Lutz keeps a nightmare scenario like this from EVER happening. I really just wanted to see how true GM fans would react to this. I guess my intial estimate was not far off at all.

I mean are you kidding me a Corolla-based Buick, LOL!

Just before you all burn me at the stake, here's what I hope GM does.

Pontiac needs a good compact. The G5 is a decent stop-gag but, Pontiac really needs a compact sedan(a RWD compact seems unlikely for at least 5 years) but, I'm guessing the Cobalt will see an update for 2009. At that time Pontiac should do a better job of making a distinctly Pontiac compact sedan & coupe.

Kill the Vibe! Why help make Toyota save any money on their craptastic Corolla? :pokeowned:

The G6 should continue to do well, I hope it gets an upgrade for 2009 to increase its competitiveness. I hope the next Grand Prix will be on the SWB Zeta. It would serve as a good alternative to the Maxima or TL. Finally, I hope Pontiac gets another GTO on Zeta or at least a Firebird.

Buick needs two great cars. a midsizer and a full-sizer. During the late 1960s heyday of Buick it had a midsize car with a fuel efficient I-6/V-6 and a Full-sizer with a V-8. This I guess would mean a modern midsize Buick would be on the SWB Zeta platform or the Epsilon platform underpinning the Aura and have a I-4?/V-6. A likely pricing model would be a mesh of the Camry and the Passat. V-6 models will target the ES & TL. If on Zeta I'd expect a V-8 "Super" model, this may be why Buick will introduce a V-8 LaCrosse for 2008. Another logical thing may be that the LaCrosse and Grand Prix will be on the same SWB Zeta platform will make Zeta more cost effective as a project. The Lucerne will be great as a LWB Zeta, expect a V-6 and a V-8.

I hope the burn Carman21 at the stake crowd is going to take this for what it is, just a point that to GM that this FAUX-plan is something almost all GM buyers and fans DO NOT WANT!!!

SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK NOW?!

AM I STILL THE INFIDEL? :lol2:

OK, I hope you guys really do forgive me, I really just had to see what could happen, if GM annouced this as their plan.

Does anybody think that the Grand Prix & LaCrosse could both be on the SWB Zeta? After all they both are are platform siblings now?

What do you think about an all-RWD Buick? Aside from the Enclave?

:CG_all:

Edited by carman21

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carman has always had some strange ideas and a way of expressing them that is even harder to swallow. A good deal of effort at least.

I didnt read the whole post or follow up posts. But I will once again bid for a small full luxury sports sedan for Buick. Not that now having owned an epilson would I want one for Buick........unless I designed the layout of driving ergonomics.

One flaw with carmans ideas are that for one saturin stands in the way screwing everything up as it always has.

Buicks have been very much luxury, even in the days of hand crank windows they were still built for comfort. I cant speak for a 76 LeSabre but having owned both a 75 & 76 Delta 88 Royale with hand crank windows, air cond, cruise and dual 8 way power seats that was every bit of a luxury car........fingertip steering, majic carpet suspension, seats that you were unaware of, tilt steering for comfort options, large spacious soft comfort.....you should not make blanket statements when you are unfimiliar. Riviera was a luxury car. Centurian was a luxury car and LeSabre could be optioned quite well (Luxus) (Limited). Then in the 80's and 90's Buicks and Oldsmobiles were pretty much delievered to dealer lots fully loaded and built for comfort....though many here want to deny it.

Pontiac never lacked for comfort and luxury either. The real deal here is Cadillac is positioned where it never was, with the performance cars..... and once again the saturin folly........

any one ever wonder if CTS's supposed "great" sales has to do with Buick, Oldsmobile and Pontiac people that couldnt find anything else ? :scratchchin: kinda like American jobs..........loose a few hundred thousand here and there......gain a few thousand somewhere else............... :stupid:

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I thi8nk your heart might be in the right place but you're misguided.

NUMI Chevrolets and Pontiacs are bad enough but Buicks? HELL NO!!!

Also you're giving too much emphasis to the Scion/hatch/small car

market. Let the japanese make "Japanee cars" it's been said a

million times on this forum: You CAN NOT out-camry the Camry...

even if that was theoretically possible, (GM makinga car that boring

and appliance-like) the press and public will still $hit all over it. Just

leave the crapboxes ot the Japanese, what Buick & Pontiac needs is

to make AMERICAN cars again.

GM's and the (big 2.5's) only chance at succes in the long term is

to make great, no excuses American cars again. The Camaro, 300C,

Charger, Magnum, Zeta Impala and Pontiac (G8 <_< ) Bonneville are

all steps in the right direction!

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Without question the worst blueprint I have ever seen for a new Buick/Pontiac lineup. It is a fleet of uninspired mediocrity at best. :nono:

228533[/snapback]

:withstupid:

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American car companies need to be DIFFERENT from japan et all...... They TRIED to be like the japanese and got their ass whipped. Make something different and appealing and you have a competetor.

I don't want a car with a washing machine dial on it to select the cycle and start.

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I am not sure if any of you heard or seen this, but this site has some concept pics of the upcomming Buicks and Pontiacs. I am not sure if these are real, but according to what they have wrote, it seems believable. I just hope my next car that I am going to get on this December(08 Grand Prix) as my third car won't get killed after 08 model year. I personally think it is a capable car that can do much if GM can update its styling and mechanics. The current car only started in 2004, and to me, it is too early to kill it. I hope the site that I am including the link is telling the truth saying the G8(which I think is downright ugly) is in fact the replacement for Bonneville(which I prefer), and not for the Grand Prix, which I recently seen in the dealer, and fell in love with.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/naias/revitalization/pontiacria/

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I am not sure if any of you heard or seen this, but this site has some concept pics of the upcomming Buicks and Pontiacs. I am not sure if these are real, but according to what they have wrote, it seems believable. I just hope my next car that I am going to get on this December(08 Grand Prix) as my third car won't get killed after 08 model year. I personally think it is a capable car that can do much if GM can update its styling and mechanics. The current car only started in 2004, and to me, it is too early to kill it. I hope the site that I am including the link is telling the truth saying the G8(which I think is downright ugly) is in fact the replacement for Bonneville(which I prefer), and not for the Grand Prix, which I recently seen in the dealer, and fell in love with.

The Grand Prix is history after '08...it's had a 5 year run with the current design. The G8 replaces it and the Bonneville.

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The Grand Prix is history after '08...it's had a 5 year run with the current design. The G8 replaces it and the Bonneville.

Well, I certainly hope not. To me, GM is making another mistake for killing the quality car for a stupid looking Aussie car. I don't care about the engine. The look should also follow. The engine is nothing if the look can't match it. They already killed the firebird which was a stupid mistake, not they are killing Grand Prix? the one they've used in the NASCAR circuit for a looong time? I know I may be the only one, but I personally hate the new G8's look, especially its horrendous interior. Why can't they just update the styling and engine for the Grand Prix, not killing it, bring the new car for 09 while keeping the G8 as planned, and bring the G8 as the replacement for Bonneville. To me, the model that they really should kill is Vibe, not the Grand Prix. Vibe is not really an American car, and I personally hate Toyota. It is just nothing more than a reskinned Toyota using the same Toyota engine and the same Toyota interior. About the only models they should kill is the Vibe and the G5 unless they stop with the rebadged Chevy Cobalt which is a crap, and give it the fresh new look that is sportier like Sunfire was to differentiate with the stupid Chevy sibling. I knew Mr. Luts is a pontiac hater and GM only favors their little baby Chevy's stupid looking cars, but this is too much. They are bringing back the camaro, so they should bring back Firebird as well, not some stupid re-badged crap, but a completely different design even if they are going to use the same engine. If Camaro comes back, so should the Firebird. Camaro without Firebird is ridiculous.

Sorry, if any of you are offended by my remarks above. I just hate Chevys Period, for getting all the un-deserved attention by GM.

Edited by Diehard GrandPrix Fan

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Buick has a myth that it is a near-luxury brand. Aside from the Park Avenue, there have been no other Buicks that could be considered true luxury cars.

As far as it being a "myth," you should really read up on Buick's history. Buick vehicles have rivaled Cadillac several times over the years.

Until the emergence of luxury/near luxury import brands (Acura, Infiniti, & Lexus) in the late-1980s/early-1990s Buick, Oldsmobile, Chrysler, and Mercury were America's near-luxury brands.

Buick is in the process of reestablishing itself as a near/mid-luxury brand where it historically and rightfully belongs. GM's brand hierarchy got out of whack due to poor (or lack of) direction in the 1980's & 1990's, but everything is being corrected now.

As a side note, most of Buick's cars in China are luxury vehicles. China is the precursor for Buick in America.

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Aside from the Electra and Riviera, there were no luxury cars that rivaled Cadillac.

The remaining Buicks were fancy Chevys.

Buick has not been a near luxury brand since at least the 1950s if not the 1930s.

That being said, Buick could move slightly more upscale but, not too much that it challenges Cadillac. This thread is so old that I'm no longer interested in defending it beyond this.

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