Teh Ricer Civic!

Modern Culture

68 posts in this topic

-- This thread will not tolerate flaming of any kind, it is intended to be a "civilized argument" encouraging critical thinking that lends itself to further evolving and refining our world. It focuses mainly on American Culture (the fastest growing culture in history) however foreign cultural views are more than welcome, as everything lends insight.

To kick it off...

Modern American Culture has evolved so rapidly that America is losing its cohesiveness, and is slowly destroying the traditional place of the family.

What is your opinion on this relatively new trend (post WW2)? Is this good or bad? what are its consequences? what does it provide to our society? Remember nothing is bad unless society deems it so http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif Edited by Teh Ricer Civic!
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The 'family' is changing with the times. I am a child of a non-nuclear family. My parents were divorced when I was 6 or so and I have lived with and was raised by my father (unusual) ever since. I am also mixed in race with my father being white with European heritage and my mother being Taiwanese with Chinese Han heritage. According to many adherers of 'ideal family values', I should be despondant, distraught, a constant trouble maker lashing out at society. I wouldn't join a gang, but rather cause rukus on my own, stemming mainly from my identity crisis over my race since I don't know who I am. I should've failed in school and lost my girlfriend because I verbally or sexually abused her because I lack a balancing mother figure in my life. Yet, I'm not. I'm fine. I graduated with honors in high school. I'm a junior in college purusuing a Bachelors in Aeronautical Sciences. I have a pilot's license and a $31,000/yr job as an assistant superintendant for a successful contracting firm. I have a wonderful relationship with my father, my friends, and my lovely girlfriend (almost 1 1/2 years now). And I'm an Administrator on C&G, a true sign of success! I underwent no counseling, no divorce therepy, no psychiatric treatments when I was younger. I simply had a father who cared and loved me and helped me pursue my goals and a good network of peers and role models. I say all that because I'm frankly sick of reading/seeing/hearing all this specious B.S. reasoning about the breakdown of 'traditional' family values and how if you don't have the perfect nuclear family, your family is dysfunctional and you're also dysfunctional. I've actually been told that by school counselors earlier in my life. What a joke! My point in all that rambling is that modern America is changing. Few people live in a two-story townhome with a mother, a father, a sibling, a dog, a white picket fence, and a Camry (okay, maybe the Camry). The odds are the norm today - blended families, single-parent families, multiethnic families, and yes even *gasp* gay families. But you know what I think? Kids growing up in what is described by many as an 'inept, breakdown' society can be just as fucked up or successful as they were in any other time. Perhaps even more successful because they grow up in such a varied environment. People all too often judge a family asthetically. It ignores the basic fact that a family is not what something is supposed to appear to be; its what it is. And as long as its caring, nuturing, understanding, and supportive, its a perfectly fine family to me.
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Well, it's hard to say, really. I could say stuff about my generation and go on for days. But I can't compare it to the 50s, 60s, 70s, or even 80s because most of what I've heard about those times are stereotypes. All I'm certain of is that each generation per decade since the 50s seems to have taken the previous decade's characteristics and intensified them. For example.. 50s was Elvis.. then came the whole harder-edged genre of rock in the 60s.. followed by smoking weed on stage at these concerts in the 70s.. with the 80s came a more sex-induced scene.. with the 90s bringing much more cussing and violence... it's all being intensified. Oh, and one more thing.. Kids are having sex younger and younger these days. And it's a terrible thing.
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Relating to Flybrian... Even with the statistics against you, you managed to come out a good productive member of society huh? Yep, theres always the "exception" to the rule. And Flybrian's story just prooves that a single father/mother can come up with ways to ensure a childs good upbringing, instead of giving up. And, i believe, should be an inspiration of single parents everywhere. In relation to NOS... never thought of it that way, although im primarly getting at splitting of family from an Extended family -> Nuclear family -> both parents filling economic rolls and children in daycare families.
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Hmm... Interesting topic. Not sure exactly what I can contribute. Well... I have an idea that regular "traditional" families have more of a chance to raise dysfunctional children than irregular ones. Anyways, other than California-esque type crap... Modern Culture evolving at the rate it is and what it is... is good, IMO. Edited by blackviper8891
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This thread is just not going to end well. Every one is different. Every family is different. There is no such thing as the "traditional family". The "traditional family" is offen described as the Clevers in T.V. land and is about as realistic.
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People aren't having sex any younger than they always have been. Even in the 1950s if you'd do a little research people would have sex at the same "young" ages they do today. Why wasn't there such an outcry? Because people married younger.

Teh Ricer Civic: If FlyBrian is the exception to the rule, then I know a whole hell of a lot of exceptions. In fact, I don't know one person who really fits the "rule."

NOS: I'm not sure I agree with your assessment of each decade.

The 1960s was a complete counterculture to the uptight and "perfect" 1950s. Hippies, marijuana, "sex, drugs, and rock and roll" really was the defining aspect of this decade.

The 1970s was affected by Vietnam intensely, and a lot of melancholy. In a way it was somewhat of a reaction to the 1960s, with The Brady Bunch being the Leave It To Beaver of its day, but the 1970s still had a lot of sexual liberation what with disco and much of the soul music of that decade. Race relations were starting to improve with The Jeffersons being one of the first television shows to feature an all-black regular cast devoid of many of the typical stereotypes. Feminism was also a dominant theme, with Roe v. Wade.

The 1980s featured a conservative backlash, as women's rights were setback immensely. The pro-family stances of the 1980s were a thin veil of anti-feminism. AIDS was a huge epidemic, and the overall climate was that a wholesome, sex-free lifestyle was best. At the same time, there was a strong subculture that resisted this. Cocaine became epidemic in Los Angeles and other areas. Twisted Sister, among other groups, resisted censorship. The Parental Advisory stickers were born during this decade as a result of Tipper Gore being an utter prude. Commercialization, greed, and materialism were dominant themes as well. Even music began to be commercialized. Look no further than Milli Vanilli, the epitome of superficiality. "Corporate Rock" was born in the latter part of the decade. Rap and Hip Hop were born during this time, and race relations were strained.

The 1990s had many themes as well, though I don't know if we have enough critical distance to really analyze them accurately. The early-mid part of the decade was somewhat of a throwback to the 1970s with the music being more melancholy, a reaction to the over-hyped and over-produced 80s scene. Picture Kurt Cobain in his red Seattle flannel and his guitar. Lillith Fair took off. People started becoming more health concious. With continued economic prosperity, self-help and gurus became popular. Look no further than Martha Stewart. "Lifestyles" became the new fad. Whether or not you could cook, everyone had to have a big designer kitchen with sub-zero refridgerators and Viking ranges. People started embracing "gourmet." Look at the growth of Panera; it's just a sandwich, right? Style became very important as well. Look at the growth of Target, offering ordinary household items in different colors or quirky designs to set themselves apart. Individualism: look at the appeal of Volkswagen or Mitsubishi during the latter part of the decade.

One thing to note: every time in American history that "family values" has been pushed, it has occurred immediately after a major economic recession, whether it be following the Great Depression in the 1930s (Hollywood censorship was very strict during this time), WWII and the start of the Cold War in the 1950s, the late 1970s and early 1980s, or in 2001 with the withering economy and 9/11. People tend to want to cling to what is "familiar" and "safe" and "utopian" (stereotypical 1950s) during times of crisis.

This decade? Who knows...we are still living it. Get back with me no sooner than 7 years.
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Okay... Anyways, other than California-esque type crap... Modern Culture evolving at the rate it is and what it is... is good, IMO.

[post="19973"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


What's that mean?

And could someone please explain to me why there seems to be so much hatred directed toward the fine state of sunny California? I heard this even back in Indiana, and I never understood it then. Since when did California carry such a negative connotation. And what Californian culture is negative, NorCal, SoCal, or both? Please explain I really don't get it. :blink:
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What's that mean?

And could someone please explain to me why there seems to be so much hatred directed toward the fine state of sunny California?  I heard this even back in Indiana, and I never understood it then.  Since when did California carry such a negative connotation.  And what Californian culture is negative, NorCal, SoCal, or both?  Please explain I really don't get it. :blink:

[post="19979"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Croc-its ok- It's a current running gag Vipe has going againist Cali...
he just throws it in there whenever he can... :unsure: :lol:
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This thread is just not going to end well.

Every one is different.
Every family is different.
There is no such thing as the "traditional family".
The "traditional family" is offen described as the Clevers in T.V. land and is about as realistic.

[post="19975"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


As long as there is respect..


The only "traditional" family there needs to be is a happy one
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What exactly is the "ideal" family? Did it ever exist? I had a friend whose mother actually wore a skirt, pearls (they were real!) and heels around the house. She was a licensed pharmacist; he was an engineer at Kodak. They had the perfect house, the perfect life. They raised their kids with love and affection. She stayed home. They went to the country club. They were both active in Church. The spawn? Well, the second youngest used to be my boyfriend. His oldest sister married a Minister and then they ended up divorced (their eldest son we ran into in a gay bar not too long ago) One of the kids did so many drugs growing up that he is on medical welfare. Well, I could go on... I don't want to sound cynical, but the family unit is going to have to change and evolve with the times. If you look what has happened in the past 35 years in the West, birth rates are falling, divorce rates are up. It isn't a pretty picture. Over all, I think it is a good thing. I think in the past too much of it was hushed up. There were too many unhappy marriages that just went unnoticed. Too many miserable people stayed married "for the children," or to keep up appearances. I think a new state of equlibrium will be established one day. As more women climb the ladder in more professions and as all types of families become not just "aceptable" but even normal, things will work out. We have seen so many changes in the past 50 years. Give it more time.
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Teh Ricer Civic: If FlyBrian is the exception to the rule, then I know a whole hell of a lot of exceptions.  In fact, I don't know one person who really fits the "rule."

[post="19978"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]



"rule" = most common statistic.

remember, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

but joking aside, thats what the data shows, depending on socio-economic class etc everything is different, its really amazing to see that no matter how much things change, they more they stay the same (in some regards).

i know many "exceptions" too.

and "traditional" refers to the most common type of family prior to WWII (for the majority of human history actually) - that is the FAMILY (extended family) is the primary group, they do everything together in an extended family (such as working the farm), this structure started wavering as people moved to the cities... but it really fell apart after WW2, creating the "nuclear" family.

i am not saying this is bad its just interesting to see how things change.

It should also be noted that now-days it usually takes 2 parents working to afford and maintain a house than 1 parent could have been able to afford in the 60s when women were only starting to become a vitally needed component of the workforce.

once again, is this bad? not at all, if anything it just shows how little the dollar goes these days, and how unequal things still are between the sexes- females still tend to do all the housework, which... despite all the fancy "time saving" equipment still takes roughly 40 hours a week to do (the same amount of time as in the 60s!), however, statistics also reveal that in upper-middle class families its becomes more common for a husband and wife to split up household duties, and become more equal.

The best part about this (primarly sociology) is that there is always people who go against the odds to become what most people view as a productive member of society. it is THESE people that will hopefully one day lead our nation to an era where we arent so restricted by our culture (In fact, out of tolerances for "normal" behaviour, America is one of the most restrictive!!) and more important the stiffling of critical thinkers.

What exactly is the "ideal" family? Did it ever exist?
probably never exisited, thats why culture evolves to meet current demands, but many think that as far as the family goes, it hasnt been good. the point of this thread is just to see what everyone thinks about our current state of culture.

the beauty of sociology is that it is not concerned with peoples emotions about it, but rather the Pros and Cons of our ways. it has a way of making people see things in a wholly different light, it is based heavily in scientific method and data.- truely a fascinating field. Edited by Teh Ricer Civic!
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I dont know Fly - theres been alot of problems with you :) My story is probably the opposite. Whole family, mom died when I was 12, didnt help but I never felt it was my problem, maybe a few but nothing serious. Dad was an American success story. An all American boy, did Korea, did college, became coach, phys ed teacher, did more college got masters became superintendant of our small town school. We spent much of summer at camp on a lake, small boat, so I water skied, snow skied, went to Florida every other summer to Dads sisters and parents area for two weeks . Lived in same town with my mothers parents and we were all very close. Spent at least a week a year at my mothers brothers hobby farm he was an engineer. Many cousins, they had horses and chores so I got a little of that. I was kind of a surbanite, for that village anyhow. We had like one street that was similar to the suburbs and we lived on it. Other relitves from Ohio came out every summer so there really was alot of Brady Bunch kind of stuff going on. Perhaps this is my problem :P I became the black sheep very young, I hated all the little ninny, ninny games my cousins would play, every thing was always a game, a mind game, lots of picking and teasing, they were all snobby, judgeing of others, always saying stuff I felt was wrong to say about people. I hated school with a passion, none of it made since to me, I couldnt see how it applied to life, it was just a bunch of hum drum boring stuff that didnt stimulate me. I was very athletic as far a wrestling, skiing and anything physical but was poor at team sports becasue I couldnt stand the games. I was not lazy, I was very active just hated the books. I barely graduated only made it becasue I did summer school two summers and concentrated very hard the last month of school and pulled it off by passing Regents, my final averages were all 65's. I passed the few remaining Regents so I was out :P I always loved the land, forest, nature, cars, girls, rock and roll so I got a job and decided to make a go of life by brakeing butt, learning a multitude of skills and eventually ran my own logging business for 20 years. I didnt see the light however and now big business/big operations, over cutting and loss of the American paper industry has put me and my family in steady reverse for 6 years now. I almost pulled it off but things changed and the rug was pulled. We were lookin sweet 7 years ago. So to the question - my normal Brady Bunch extended family had one misfit - me. It almost did'nt make a difference but in the end caught up with me. The rest of my family/cousins are Teachers, Professers, Doctors, Lawyers, Economists, Engineer for John Deere, things like that. :huh: So my good friends, nothing is carved in stone. Vips - stop what you are doing right now, turn the corner, smile, hang out with the others, learn from them even if you dont like it, put up a front at first if you have to, concentrate every second in class in school, you are headed for hell hideing in the corner, sittin on the fence, watching not participating. Believe me if you like or blow it off, but I know your scene, a little mind control will go along way to get out of this period in your life so you can come out - untrapped by that fence your sittin on. B) Into the fire man, just go for it !
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Sorry, Croc, Panera is just a sandwich. An overpriced one at that.

[post="19993"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Why apologize? I agree with you. It is a very good sandwich though ^_^ Edited by Croc
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Why apologize?  I agree with you.  It is a very good sandwich though ^_^

[post="20013"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


Meh. It would be better if they dropped the price.

I don't like Panera because the local Panera is the reason why the local Schlotzky's Deli franchise closed. Schlotzky's was similarly expensive, but holy crap, you got alot of sandwich.
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Croc... dave summed it up pretty nicely. :D Actually, it's hard for me to explain. I'm tired... kinda out of it. So.. Um.. tomorrow I'll attempt it if no one else tries to answer. Has to do with the whole image thing, if you know what I mean. I don't mean to offend when I say anything agaisnt Ca. I just hate it... sorry. Razor... Thanks, I guess... I'm trying, but it isn't getting any easier.
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Schlotzky's used to be good. But then they started cheaping out, using Ranch dressing instead of Mayo, and shrinking the sandwiches. Lots of people stopped going, and they shut down in Indy as well. I'm surprised you don't think Panera sandwiches are large though...they're large enough for me!
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Croc... dave summed it up pretty nicely. :D

Actually, it's hard for me to explain. I'm tired... kinda out of it. So.. Um.. tomorrow I'll attempt it if no one else tries to answer. Has to do with the whole image thing, if you know what I mean. I don't mean to offend when I say anything agaisnt Ca. I just hate it... sorry.

Razor... Thanks, I guess... I'm trying, but it isn't getting any easier.

[post="20019"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


I'm not offended, I just don't understand it. And I don't know which "image" you refer to. I look forward to your explanation. Don't worry you aren't the first to mention this, you're just the first person to whom I'm asking of it.
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Dont want to get way off topic here. From the East and a country boy. Alot of good things have come from CA, Sammy Hagar for example. :) I think the thing about CA is everything is excepted. CA is like the epitomy of American culture, disposable everything, massive populations, massive environmental issues, keep up with the Jones, one entire suburbia everywhere, if your not like us your not cool, that kind of stuff. Its a percieved image tho because Ive never been there, its most likely the Hollywood image maybe. Hard to put a finger on it, I dont dislike Ca and am infact entertained by it but I dont want my world turned into a Cali surbanite culture. Its just not for me. But its comming, all areas are changing and the California thing is closing in. Its called Suburban Sprawl. My way of life will be run over and dumped down the tubes just like everything else that was Americana. Its not a good feeling, at all, uselessness, no longer needed, defunct, decomissioned, extinct. Pretty good job on the decades BTW.
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Dont want to get way off topic here. From the East and a country boy. Alot of good things have come from CA, Sammy Hagar for example. :)

I think the thing about CA is everything is excepted. CA is like the epitomy of American culture, disposable everything, massive populations, massive environmental issues, keep up with the Jones, one entire suburbia everywhere, if your not like us your not cool, that kind of stuff. Its a percieved image tho because Ive never been there, its most likely the Hollywood image maybe. Hard to put a finger on it, I dont dislike Ca and am infact entertained by it but I dont want my world turned into a Cali surbanite culture. Its just not for me. But its comming, all areas are changing and the California thing is closing in. Its called Suburban Sprawl. My way of life will be run over and dumped down the tubes just like everything else that was Americana. Its not a good feeling, at all, uselessness, no longer needed, defunct, decomissioned, extinct.

Pretty good job on the decades BTW.

[post="20040"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


That's so 15 years ago. :P I'd hardly consider modern California, or at least Los Angeles, to be generic suburbia. The Jones have moved elsewhere, places where they can afford a white-picket fence, cul-de-sac, a Camry and a Sienna, white neighbors, and some conservative religious institution.
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Schlotzky's used to be good.  But then they started cheaping out, using Ranch dressing instead of Mayo, and shrinking the sandwiches.  Lots of people stopped going, and they shut down in Indy as well.

I'm surprised you don't think Panera sandwiches are large though...they're large enough for me!

[post="20022"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]


The only good thing about Panera is their wi-fi, IMO. You could kill somebody with their bread... its, um, like a rock.
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never heard of a panera...we've got quiznos though, and they're tasty...we've also got togos and subway... and about CA...well, I live here in SoCal, and frankly, I have been many places out of state and I really don't think it gets any better. Are there a lot of negatives about CA? sure, as there are with everywhere else. But we've got everything here. The weather is perfect, the people are beautiful (though we do have a lot of fuglys too). Great job opportunities. Great cars. Hell, SoCal is custom car capital of the world. Many parts of it are beautiful...America is often considered a melting pot. Well, California is like the melting pot of America itself.
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razoredge: Thanks. I studied late-19th and 20th century America in a very good class last year, Film, Power and American History. We learned about labor movements (yes, unions were the ones giving us weekends, 40 hour work-weeks, and worker's comp/healthcare), the development of movies as part of American culture, the creation and rise of the Hollywood as we know it, and we learned all about the social issues that caused these other movements to happen. What made this class unique, however, was that we learned through books and films of the time period of study; for example, we watched silent films to learn about how life was depicted in the 1910s. We watched Grapes of Wrath for the Depression era, we watched Rebel Without a Cause for the 1950s, some movie about an interracial marriage for the 1960s, a Blaxploitation film for the 1970s, and Working Girl for the 1980s. Then we compared and contrasted the books and movies to get an overall picture of American history. Fascinating. But I digress...

As far as that image of California, you have to realize that California really should be broken into two states: NorCal and SoCal. Each has a very distinct culture. The ultra-liberal, environmentalist, idealistic, etc resides in the North (where they say "hella" all the time), while the Republican, conservative, wealthy, consumer culture, beach culture is primarily in the South. But God is it beautiful...

I know you aren't into Cali, but if there's one thing you should do before you die, drive the Pacific Coast Highway from San Diego to as far north as you wish (at least go to Pacific Palisades). Excepting the industrialized portion of this between Long Beach and Los Angeles, it is the most beautiful drive you will experience. It won't be fast, but the scenery is great.

empowah: I agree. LA is very urban. You gotta drive pretty much out of the county to find anything resembling modern suburbia, and even then it's difficult because everything is so tiny due to high demand.

I do NOT like Panera bagels, and I have not bought just "bread" from them, but I do enjoy the artisan sandwiches and soups. If the bread bowl is any indication of the bread, the exterior is pretty hard, but the interior is great. That's how I prefer my bread, actually...like a French baguette: hard on the outside soft on the inside.
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Nick: in Santa Monica they have a Panera somewhat near to the Promenade, on Wilshire. It looks like an old, converted Denny's. Try it sometime, and get back with us ;)

That's the only location I'm aware of, but go to their site for one that's prolly closer to you:

http://www.panera.com Edited by Croc
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