Mr.Krinkle

GM Fails to Halt Toyota

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April 5 (Bloomberg) -- Two years ago, General Motors Corp. promised dealers it would do whatever it took to reverse falling sales in the American cities that set the industry's trends. The slump has only worsened.

Toyota Motor Corp. outsells GM two-to-one in Los Angeles and by a slightly smaller margin in Miami, according to U.S. data compiled by R.L. Polk & Co. In the New York City metropolitan area, where GM had a 4.5 percentage point lead in market share five years ago, Toyota has surged to a four-point advantage.

Full Story below.

GM Fails to Halt Toyota Sales Gains in U.S. Cities

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Rick Wagoner, in 2005 promised more advertising and other resources to boost sales... Really? I live within the 5th largest TV market (Philadelphia) in the USA. I have yet to see an Outlook/Acadia commercial, yet I've seen the Ford Edge commercial at least 50 times and hundreds of Toyota commercials. Even when I pull up my weather alerts, there's Toyota with a little man knocking on my commputer screen, telling me that I was smart enough to find my weather site, it would be smart of me to look at Toyota's site too.

Where are the commercials Rick?

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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Rick Wagoner, in 2005 promised more advertising and other resources to boost sales... Really I live within the 5th largest TV market (Philadelphia) in the USA. I have yet to see an Outlook/Acadia commercial, yet I've seen the Ford Edge commercial at least 50 times and hundreds of Toyota commercials. Even when I pull up my weather alerts, there's Toyota with a little man knocking on my commputer screen, telling me that I was smart enough to find my weather site, it would be smart of me to look at Toyota's site too.

Where are the commercials Rick?

Sometimes I begin to think it's hopeless. It doesn't matter if you have the best car in EVERY segment if nobody knows about them.

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Sometimes I begin to think it's hopeless. It doesn't matter if you have the best car in EVERY segment if nobody knows about them.

They need to really look at their ad agency - I heard they sacked the one they'd been using for quite a while. It's criminal we're not seeing this great new products being advertised heavily.

(Get back to your school work!)

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I couldn't agree more. The TV ads that always catch my eye are decidely NOT GM's. However, clearly too many models to promote, not enough dollars to go around.

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I couldn't agree more. The TV ads that always catch my eye are decidely NOT GM's. However, clearly too many models to promote, not enough dollars to go around.

Not enough dollars to go around is the key. Cutting models and divisions only leads to less dollars and doesn't solve the problem.
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It would help if GM had effective advertising. Instead of advertising their deal-of-the-week, they should be advertising things like how well jdpa has ranked the Malibu in terms of initial quality & vehicle dependability. The Malibu has placed within the top 3 (if not #1 outright) on both of those for 4 of the last 5 years -- the Accord & Camry didn't even make the top 3. It's effective in conveying your quality improvements and dispelling the myth and the Camry & Accord are the quality leaders in the segment. Of course, to pull off this type of advertising, you need to have competent product - and GM's vast product line always seems to have models that lag their segments in some sort or another. Oh dear, that brings us back to the money again, doesn't it?

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It would help if GM had effective advertising. Instead of advertising their deal-of-the-week, they should be advertising things like how well jdpa has ranked the Malibu in terms of initial quality & vehicle dependability. The Malibu has placed within the top 3 (if not #1 outright) on both of those for 4 of the last 5 years -- the Accord & Camry didn't even make the top 3. It's effective in conveying your quality improvements and dispelling the myth and the Camry & Accord are the quality leaders in the segment. Of course, to pull off this type of advertising, you need to have competent product - and GM's vast product line always seems to have models that lag their segments in some sort or another. Oh dear, that brings us back to the money again, doesn't it?

I agree. I'm so tired of hearing Toyota ads beating on the quality issue. GM needs to stick right back in their face and HARD. They're just sitting back and taking the punches. It's just sad.

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It would help if GM had effective advertising. Instead of advertising their deal-of-the-week, they should be advertising things like how well jdpa has ranked the Malibu in terms of initial quality & vehicle dependability. The Malibu has placed within the top 3 (if not #1 outright) on both of those for 4 of the last 5 years -- the Accord & Camry didn't even make the top 3. It's effective in conveying your quality improvements and dispelling the myth and the Camry & Accord are the quality leaders in the segment. Of course, to pull off this type of advertising, you need to have competent product - and GM's vast product line always seems to have models that lag their segments in some sort or another. Oh dear, that brings us back to the money again, doesn't it?

that won't help unless the product can actually appeal to that target market. the only demo in CA that isn't choosing the imports are choosing Ford Fusion....because of effective marketing coupled with a stylish appealing car. Malibu may have great quality, but it's not the car to choose to budget millions of advertising dollars. Aura gets publicized a lot here....and it seems to be working. But the bottom line is GM has to figure out what it has been doing wrong for so many years that it cannot appeal to the cities.

The big cities are the trendiest, most affluent, and most image-conscious. When looking at GM's lineup, hardly anyhthing they have, except the Escalade and the rest of the trucks have managed to hit the trend when it's going.

In SoCal, Honda and toyota are legends. But when you look at the Civic and Mazda3, for example, or the Camry, for example, it's hard to not see how effectively those cars hit the target markets. So not only are Honda/Toyo credited with building superbly engineered cars...but they're also making DESIRABLE cars! The Cobalt design is bland...it's a solid car with just a couple functionality problems, but the major problem it has is that's not an enticing product. Chevy, GM et al have to come up with seriously enticing cars that will get people to WANT to give them a chance. This needs to happen sooner than later before it becomes too late, and GM is totally irrellevant.

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:withstupid:
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that won't help unless the product can actually appeal to that target market. the only demo in CA that isn't choosing the imports are choosing Ford Fusion....because of effective marketing coupled with a stylish appealing car. Malibu may have great quality, but it's not the car to choose to budget millions of advertising dollars. Aura gets publicized a lot here....and it seems to be working. But the bottom line is GM has to figure out what it has been doing wrong for so many years that it cannot appeal to the cities.

The big cities are the trendiest, most affluent, and most image-conscious. When looking at GM's lineup, hardly anyhthing they have, except the Escalade and the rest of the trucks have managed to hit the trend when it's going.

In SoCal, Honda and toyota are legends. But when you look at the Civic and Mazda3, for example, or the Camry, for example, it's hard to not see how effectively those cars hit the target markets. So not only are Honda/Toyo credited with building superbly engineered cars...but they're also making DESIRABLE cars! The Cobalt design is bland...it's a solid car with just a couple functionality problems, but the major problem it has is that's not an enticing product. Chevy, GM et al have to come up with seriously enticing cars that will get people to WANT to give them a chance. This needs to happen sooner than later before it becomes too late, and GM is totally irrellevant.

I agree with what you're saying but the Cobalt is not a good example. To point this out in the same segment as a Corolla and complain about not being enticing is simply off the mark. The Corolla is one of, if not THE blandest product on the market yet it still sells? Why? Because of "Toyota's reputation for quality" (plus the highway mileage number of 40-41.) As I have stated before, GM needs to do something about their mileage numbers in this segment. Too many people look at that one number and sign on the dotted line. The quality comment is reputation only - not born in fact now vs. most other product in the market but it does talk to the fact Toyota hasn't let anyone down with their quality so it's perceived as a lower risk purchase. This fact is a tremendous challenge to overcome and will take time. Let's hope Detroit actually *has* time.

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I agree with what you're saying but the Cobalt is not a good example. To point this out in the same segment as a Corolla and complain about not being enticing is simply off the mark. The Corolla is one of, if not THE blandest product on the market yet it still sells? Why? Because of "Toyota's reputation for quality" (plus the highway mileage number of 40-41.) As I have stated before, GM needs to do something about their mileage numbers in this segment. Too many people look at that one number and sign on the dotted line. The quality comment is reputation only - not born in fact now vs. most other product in the market but it does talk to the fact Toyota hasn't let anyone down with their quality so it's perceived as a lower risk purchase. This fact is a tremendous challenge to overcome and will take time. Let's hope Detroit actually *has* time.

well, we're pretty much completely in agreement and you proved my point. Toyota does not have to entice, their name simply entices. chevrolet simply cannot claim anywhere near that position, thus it cannot afford to sell a product as bland as corolla, as proven by sales numbers of cobalt versus corolla. corolla as you stated is a great all around car with great gas mileage and is a very competent family car...that's why it sells, so we're in agreement. i completely agree mileage needs to improve at GM, especially in 4 cylinder models, where it matters most.

The quality comment is reputation, but also fact. I have yet to see proof regarding durability of parts...do GM parts and suspensions and engines hold up as well over time? I think this has yet to be proven, from what I've read or seen. Maybe I'm missing something. But this is a major chink in the quality argument for GM. I believe GM makes great quality vehicles, that are very reliable. But are they durable?

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Corolla is not a 'family car.' Maybe a foreign family.

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People need to know about the products in order to buy them. GM is starting to turn around and I am begining to see it, so I hope they can get the big city sales up, way up and I think in time they will.

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Corolla is not a 'family car.' Maybe a foreign family.

can carry 2-3 in back plus luggage. I guess only foreign families qualify under this rule :rolleyes:
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can carry 2-3 uncomfortably in back plus some luggage while dragging ass. I guess only foreign families qualify under this rule Posted Image

Fixed.

I've experienced my fair share of Corolladom and let's be realistic about its place in this country - its a commuter car. A Camry/LaCrosse/Taurus/Accord/etc. is a family car, i.e. one that can be used to carry 4-5 people and a complement of luggage in comfort with adequate and safe power reserve for urban and interstate travel over short and long distances. I feel sorry for those that use a Corolla as a true family car and wish them a real-sized vehicle - regardless of maufacturer - sometime soon.

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well, we're pretty much completely in agreement and you proved my point. Toyota does not have to entice, their name simply entices. chevrolet simply cannot claim anywhere near that position, thus it cannot afford to sell a product as bland as corolla, as proven by sales numbers of cobalt versus corolla. corolla as you stated is a great all around car with great gas mileage and is a very competent family car...that's why it sells, so we're in agreement. i completely agree mileage needs to improve at GM, especially in 4 cylinder models, where it matters most.

The quality comment is reputation, but also fact. I have yet to see proof regarding durability of parts...do GM parts and suspensions and engines hold up as well over time? I think this has yet to be proven, from what I've read or seen. Maybe I'm missing something. But this is a major chink in the quality argument for GM. I believe GM makes great quality vehicles, that are very reliable. But are they durable?

Well now we get into the crux of the issue. Isn't durability quality? I really don't know. I suppose everyone has their opinion of what quality is. I *will* say my '91 S-10 was reliable but I would not say it was top quality since it rusted to hell in a very short time. Did I take care of the body well? Probably not. Would it have lasted longer if I had taken better care of it? Probably.

The old '91 went to the big junk yard in the sky long before it should have been sent, and on the other hand my '97 STS has 130K miles on it and still runs and looks great. I'd hope you'd consider this to be durable. I think it would last another 130k no problem. Personally I think GM should do a commercial spouting off high mileage cars like Toyota. I'm sure they can find plenty. Toyota likes to point to 3 examples in their ads with the implication these small numbers indicate quality and/or set expectation we'd all get these numbers which of course most wouldn't. This is how Toyota skirts the line of dishonesty - and they do it in every ad you see on TV.

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Well now we get into the crux of the issue. Isn't durability quality? I really don't know. I suppose everyone has their opinion of what quality is. I *will* say my '91 S-10 was reliable but I would not say it was top quality since it rusted to hell in a very short time. Did I take care of the body well? Probably not. Would it have lasted longer if I had taken better care of it? Probably.

The old '91 went to the big junk yard in the sky long before it should have been sent, and on the other hand my '97 STS has 130K miles on it and still runs and looks great. I'd hope you'd consider this to be durable. I think it would last another 130k no problem. Personally I think GM should do a commercial spouting off high mileage cars like Toyota. I'm sure they can find plenty. Toyota likes to point to 3 examples in their ads with the implication these small numbers indicate quality and/or set expectation we'd all get these numbers which of course most wouldn't. This is how Toyota skirts the line of dishonesty - and they do it in every ad you see on TV.

Quality can mean a lot of things, so let's leave that term out. I do believe reliable and durable are two seperate issues. Reliability to me implies a car won't break down...it will last longer without having major parts that fail. Durability implies the condition these parts will maintain over time. To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a study that shows GM has equaled Toyota and Honda's superior level of durability. For me, growing up it was never a story of GM being unreliable, just that the way the car held up over time was subpar to Toyota and Honda's. That is the supreme legacy that still holds up those automakers in my mind, and to many consumers, and is one of the reasons resale is so great for those imports. I guess BMW and MB have this same sort of reputation for parts holding up [ not for being reliable though] over time too, but to a lesser degree. It has never been disproven to me, and still remains a solid argument against purchasing anything domestic. That is why the line "American cars are junk" "American cars aren't built the same" "American cars don't hold up" etc etc is so complex to completely honestly and impartially argue, for me, cause I'm an honest and neutral person, unlike 90% of the people on this board.
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Hertz puts Crapolla as a mid-sizer. What is next Crapry as a RWD sedan?
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As C&D put it, GM cars run longer in poor condition than most cars will even run at all.

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Hertz puts Crapolla as a mid-sizer. What is next Crapry as a RWD sedan?

Most rental agencies list cars a size class larger than what the actually are...the Neon is midsize too :rolleyes:

Anyway, the `93-`97 Corlla/Prizm aren't too bad in th back...if you move the seat up one notch from it's farthest back position...I'm 6'1" So I'm not exactly small. That being said it's not match for the roominess of the Intrepid.

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Quality can mean a lot of things, so let's leave that term out. I do believe reliable and durable are two seperate issues. Reliability to me implies a car won't break down...it will last longer without having major parts that fail. Durability implies the condition these parts will maintain over time.

Based on your definitions, wouldn't a car that is durable also be reliable? To me I see these in more simplistic terms. I see reliable as always starting and never stranding me. I see "durable" as meaning it doesn't need to be in the repair shop on a regular basis. Maybe this should be the same definition for reliable. It also brings up the experience of dealing with repair facilities which I have found to be among the most dishoneset.

To the best of my knowledge, I've never seen a study that shows GM has equaled Toyota and Honda's superior level of durability.

I don't think there's even been one focused on durability.

For me, growing up it was never a story of GM being unreliable, just that the way the car held up over time was subpar to Toyota and Honda's. That is the supreme legacy that still holds up those automakers in my mind, and to many consumers, and is one of the reasons resale is so great for those imports. I guess BMW and MB have this same sort of reputation for parts holding up [ not for being reliable though] over time too, but to a lesser degree. It has never been disproven to me, and still remains a solid argument against purchasing anything domestic. That is why the line "American cars are junk" "American cars aren't built the same" "American cars don't hold up" etc etc is so complex to completely honestly and impartially argue, for me, cause I'm an honest and neutral person, unlike 90% of the people on this board.

Quality is a tough thing to really define. Some would differentiate say an Avalon and a Corolla based on quality when we all know the Corolla sells primarily on the quality mantra but the Avalon is the better car. In a way your reference to BMW and MB is interesting because my reaction to those brands is they are durable but not reliable. Not many would argue they are not quality products though. It's interesting you used the word "disproven" as isn't this the crux of the Toyota quality argument? They have the reputation for quality. It's not clear whether they're better than anyone else today but until they seriously drop the ball on quality the reputation remains intact.

To me the dilemma for GM is Toyota is well organized and well-managed. In their product management they have vehicles for every segment without competiting with themselves and they communicate to those segments they're targeting. They're also building aesthetically pleasing vehicles. No one can argue the current Camry isn't a nice looking car. On the other hand GM builds products within the same brand that seem to overlap themselves and of course there's the whole brand issue overall. Simple is always better and being clear on why brands exist is key. For instance after seeing Saab's March numbers I really question why the brand exists.

I'm not sure if you're saying 90% of the people here aren't honest or aren't neutral. Not being neutral here is expected isn't it since it's a GM site?

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Corolla is not a 'family car.' Maybe a foreign family.

hippie/extreme liberal urbanites make corollas family cars. i still laugh on every thanksgiving when i see packed corollas on the beltway. its so obvious these people only use their cars on those 2 days a year when daddy says they won't hurt the environment by consuming gas because they need to see evil grandma in the nursing home. mom dad and 2 kids jammed in the corolla and the driver does not know how to merge with traffic or keep up speed on the roads. good times, good times. its obviously too cold for all 5 or 4 to ride their bikes to grammas on such a brisk day. so much for bikes saving the ecosystem. the city buses must have scared them too......

GM will never be able to take back share until they make some sort of marketing perception breakthrough. CR prints more copies each month than GM can advertise on TV. Its a losing battle. GM needs a 'big idea' on how to cut through customer's perceptions. A good start would be pointing out how

-Toyota doubling capacity of tundras to suck more fuel, while increasing GM's own mpg across the board on trucks

-massive toyota recalls

-tundra terrible front crash ratings and lack of boxed frame. timing belts in the engine (wise for a truck!).

-the whiplash monster has arrived even though its a new design (avalon)

-small junky cars (yaris, check the press reviews)

-massive incentives and fleet sales toyo is the new fleet king

-why no 100k warranties toyota?

-toyota is not a US company

-toyota is part of japan which prefers to manipulate currency and other tactics in unfair economic warfare

-toyota would love to cut wages and benefits so its workers make as much as burger king and probably will

-toyota ASSEMBLES cars here but still sources majority from outside US and doesn't employ near the people as US companies do

Strangely enough, 'big city dwellers' need to think they are atop the curve and better in their decision making will get the best of them. In most segments where Toyota has a big seller, there is a better or equally capable entry that deserves to sell more. With all the fine cars out there, Toyota really doesn't deserve to sell like they do, because they are so one dimensional. But stubborn and correct people like city dwellers never have the capacity to adjust their thinking on the fly.

I would be curious to know of how people say Japanese cars hold up better than US cars have actually owned a Japanese car beyond 50k miles. to watch it rust sooner. to watch the tranny go bad and cost $$$$$$$$. to pay 600 bucks for an alternator. to see the timing belt go.

I've put 235,000 miles on 4 domestic GM or Ford cars that i got new or just barely used. I've never had to fix anything. Worst thing that happened was to replace a battery. My Aztek is at 63,000 and I still have original tires and brakes. No trannies, no engines, no major components. Tbird was 75k and no tires or brakes or anything.

No toyota sludge, no TL tranny blowups.

Help me, I just don't understand why that is so bad.

Edited by regfootball
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hippie/extreme liberal urbanites make corollas family cars. i still laugh on every thanksgiving when i see packed corollas on the beltway. its so obvious these people only use their cars on those 2 days a year when daddy says they won't hurt the environment by consuming gas because they need to see evil grandma in the nursing home. mom dad and 2 kids jammed in the corolla and the driver does not know how to merge with traffic or keep up speed on the roads. good times, good times. its obviously too cold for all 5 or 4 to ride their bikes to grammas on such a brisk day.

GM will never be able to take back share until they make some sort of marketing perception breakthrough. CR prints more copies each month than GM can advertise on TV. Its a losing battle. GM needs a 'big idea' on how to cut through costomer's perceptions. A good start would be

-Toyota doubling capacity of tundras to suck more fuel, while increasing GM's own mpg across the board on trucks

-massive toyota recalls

-tundra terrible front crash ratings and lack of boxed frame. timing belts in the engine (wise for a truck!).

-the whiplash monster has arrived even though its a new design (avalon)

-small junky cars (yaris, check the press reviews)

-massive incentives and fleet sales toyo is the new fleet king

-why no 100k warranties toyota?

Strangely enough, 'big city dwellers' need to think they are atop the curve and better in their decision making will get the best of them. In most segments where Toyota has a big seller, there is a better or equally capable entry that deserves to sell more. With all the fine cars out there, Toyota really doesn't deserve to sell like they do, because they are so one dimensional. But stubbron and correct people like city dwellers never have the capacity to adjust their thinking on the fly.

Massive recalls? Toyota already HAS massive recalls. Nobody noticed.

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Fixed.

I've experienced my fair share of Corolladom and let's be realistic about its place in this country - its a commuter car. A Camry/LaCrosse/Taurus/Accord/etc. is a family car, i.e. one that can be used to carry 4-5 people and a complement of luggage in comfort with adequate and safe power reserve for urban and interstate travel over short and long distances. I feel sorry for those that use a Corolla as a true family car and wish them a real-sized vehicle - regardless of maufacturer - sometime soon.

WILL YOU MARRY ME? A MAN WITH COMMON SENSE AND WISDOM!

are you secretly from the midwest? those are midwest family values, man.

Edited by regfootball
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