The Canary in the Mineshaft.

[evok]

http://www.autoextremist.com/page2.shtml#Rant

I do not agree with him much but this time he nails it.


by Peter M. DeLorenzo


The Canary in the Mineshaft.

Detroit. The news of Delphi's bankruptcy filing may be just another piece of business news to those who don't live around these parts, or for those who don't have a vested interest in the U.S. auto industry, but the sad fact of the matter is that this development is just the tip of the iceberg in a fundamental shift that not only threatens to decimate the U.S. auto industry, it's one that will ultimately affect this nation's economy - no matter where you live or what you do.

The Delphi bankruptcy is the latest major crack in the pressure cooker that the U.S. auto industry has become over the last two decades - only this one is definitely the tipping point into a dimension that industry insiders have been dreading. Lower cost competition from around the world has changed the auto manufacturing landscape completely - and Detroit has been operating under a model that has been obsolete for years. Strapped with a crushing wage and benefits structure negotiated in an environment fueled by an optimism that in retrospect had absolutely no right to exist, the American car companies and the United Auto Workers union are now facing a future that revolves around a harsh reality that comes down to this one simple but all-encompassing statement: change or die.

[David]

Sad but True, The UAW needs to wake up and realize that the rest of us in the US have been paying a fair share for our benefits and do not have the nice promised pension, etc. Reality is no one is really promised that not my 401K or IRA. Why the gov feels the need to bail out the union funds AKA United Airlines and what now looks like Northwest and Delta after it let the companies under pay their obligation is beyond me other than special interest Greed. The Steel companies thought they would be around for ever and Bethleham Steel is Gone. Reality is if you do not change to changing conditions then you will die. The socialist system the UAW has operated under for so long is out of date. The Unions did good things in the early years, but the last 30-40 years they have really not done much for the people that pay them a chunk of their hard earned income. Each and every person already has the rights the unions preach they get for the workers promised to them. If you do not like the pay, benefits etc. and do not want to negociate a better package on your own then find another job or learn to live with it. UAW like so many of the unions always wants a socialist answer of give me everything and not give anything back. They fight the companies rather than work to build a better product, better company. Again the US Unions ignored chances over the last 25 years for sure to build stronger companies that would keep their workers jobs. At this point, we are going to see major changes in the US auto landscape. I for one will miss some things and enjoy the new changes. A Global economy will always have fast currents that move and require a company to move with it. The best thing FORD and GM can do is to move to get new models out that gain profits and then put those profits into paying down financial obligations. The Executive mgmt and stock holders will reap HUGH benefits if they just wait a while rather than wanting instant gratification. Get their obligations paid and then they will be a terror force for the asian and European companies to deal with. Sad also is that the European Unions have this headache coming to them also. Germany needs a major wake up call. Edited October 12, 2005 by dfelt

[Ultra Magnus]

I refuse to blame the unions for the entire debacle that is GM but they do have a significant part in it. GM became stagnant with their designs and in the thinking that they would be on top forever. By not reacting to customer designs wants then you cant compete in the market. Now with that said, the UAW needs to realize it would be infinitely cheaper to build everything in some low wage country and import it. They have to make concessions in order to keep GM, and thus their jobs, alive. I wish I could get some of the benefits they do. One way or another there will be resolution to this situation. By the way things are shaping up, that result will not be a good one.

[SimonDavid]

This guy has hit the nail on the head. If Delphi isn't viable hen GM isnt viable either - Delphi is just GM lite, making the same products with the same cost structure that ultimately go to the same end customers The only real difference is that GM sells to the general public, who will panic and stop buying the minute GM is put into chapter 11. Hence, as I said in another thread, I think Kerkorian will come in with a low ball takeover offer at the last minute and then take it on himself to bash down the UAW almost as much as chapter 11 would do.

[vetteman]

I don't understand why everyone is saying that it's not just the union, GM is to blame too. What about Ford? What about Dodge (before Daimler bailed their butts out)? Isn't it strange how the two biggest American automakers (GM and Ford) still sell MORE cars and trucks than Toyota in the U.S., yet they're both failing financially and Toyota is thriving. No one is saying that the union is completely to blame for this, but it is absolutely absurd to think that someone bolting on bumpers with an air wrench is being paid $90,000 to $100,000 a year. I guarantee that if you offered ANY UAW worker the option of riding out this market uncertainty in his current job at his current pay and benefits, or told him he could take a different job in any other non-automotive manufacturing plant with guaranteed job security, EVERY one would choose to keep his current job. They HAVE to know that the money they make and benefits they get are not a reflection of any other real world job. It's about time that these workers deal with the reality that the rest of us have had to for a long time, that things cost more and, just because of that, our employers don't automatically give us a raise. I'm not anti-autoworker. I understand the devastation it would cause if all of the autoworkers were unemployed. But the autoworkers also need to have a reality check and realize the devastation their current path could cause in the whole American automotive industry.

[Clownzilla]

I don't understand why everyone is saying that it's not just the union, GM is to blame too. What about Ford? What about Dodge (before Daimler bailed their butts out)? Isn't it strange how the two biggest American automakers (GM and Ford) still sell MORE cars and trucks than Toyota in the U.S., yet they're both failing financially and Toyota is thriving. No one is saying that the union is completely to blame for this, but it is absolutely absurd to think that someone bolting on bumpers with an air wrench is being paid $90,000 to $100,000 a year.

I guarantee that if you offered ANY UAW worker the option of riding out this market uncertainty in his current job at his current pay and benefits, or told him he could take a different job in any other non-automotive manufacturing plant with guaranteed job security, EVERY one would choose to keep his current job. They HAVE to know that the money they make and benefits they get are not a reflection of any other real world job. It's about time that these workers deal with the reality that the rest of us have had to for a long time, that things cost more and, just because of that, our employers don't automatically give us a raise.

I'm not anti-autoworker. I understand the devastation it would cause if all of the autoworkers were unemployed. But the autoworkers also need to have a reality check and realize the devastation their current path could cause in the whole American automotive industry.

[post="27657"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Although GM has made some design flaws, many of those have to do with their cost structure. I'm sure GM doesn't want an Equinox & a Torrent, they want an Equinox & a high proformance Pontiac SUV (like a low cost Porsche Cheyane). They have to rebadge because of a high cost structure. Where does that high cost structure come from. Hmm.......................... the answer starts with the letter U.

[razoredge]

Pull your heads out of your ass's boys. The industry isnt going to survive your beloved "global economy". Like I said before if we gave GM our children for free labor it would'nt change a thing. Your all too narrow minded and drivin by anger about something that may or may not have come down the shaft at you. You want to act like pension funds were not made, you want to act like workers didnt save while they indeed did. It was a pension fund, GM did not maintain it. The workers tried hard to get GM to keep employment up, jobs open, factorys working, yet the pocket lining decision makers you all are proping up decided to pay them full pay and not keep the jobs in house. While at the same time our government opened the doors wide open to products from near slave labor countries. So now we are up to a firm $90,000- $100,000 per year for line workers, what are you going to be up to next week ? $120,000-$140,000 Do you think the economies of the areas these people live in are drivin by their wages ? Are property tax's, school tax's, real estate, rent costs reflected by the standard of living in the area ? So then what happens when you chop someones wage by over 50% which is what has been proposed ? No sweat right ? Then to top it all off you wanna act like if they will only suffer through, tax/morgage forclosures, reposessions, no retirement plan, I would suspect probably homeless because I know rent cant be made at the wages proposed, with all that sacrifice you wanna act like it can save America from your global plan. Now the impact of this global economy is just upon us, and you dont want to get down to the real issues and cause/effect at hand, so shut your mouths and deal with how ugly it really is. Hell, I wouldnt cave either if the only answers to a much larger problem that anyone could come up with was throwing me into poverty.

[Clownzilla]

Pull your heads out of your ass's boys. The industry isnt going to survive your beloved "global economy". Like I said before if we gave GM our children for free labor it would'nt change a thing. Your all too narrow minded and drivin by anger about something that may or may not have come down the shaft at you. You want to act like pension funds were not made, you want to act like workers didnt save while they indeed did. It was a pension fund, GM did not maintain it. The workers tried hard to get GM to keep employment up, jobs open, factorys working, yet the pocket lining decision makers you all are proping up decided to pay them full pay and not keep the jobs in house. While at the same time our government opened the doors wide open to products from near slave labor countries.

So now we are up to a firm $90,000- $100,000 per year for line workers, what are you going to be up to next week ? $120,000-$140,000

Do you think the economies of the areas these people live in are drivin by their wages ? Are property tax's, school tax's, real estate, rent costs reflected by the standard of living in the area ? So then what happens when you chop someones wage by over 50% which is what has been proposed ? No sweat right ?

Then to top it all off you wanna act like if they will only suffer through, tax/morgage forclosures, reposessions, no retirement plan, I would suspect probably homeless because I know rent cant be made at the wages proposed, with all that sacrifice you wanna act like it can save America from your global plan.

Now the impact of this global economy is just upon us, and you dont want to get down to the real issues and cause/effect at hand,  so shut your mouths and deal with how ugly it really is.

Hell, I wouldnt cave either if the only answers to a much larger problem that anyone could come up with was throwing me into poverty.

[post="27687"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Welcome to world-wide competition. Live by the rules, or die by the rules! Your choice! I feel sorry for NO union worker.

[razoredge]

You couldnt survive outside of your little protection. Where are these "rules", passing out rule books now are you ? :lol: Better pull it out its cutting of the circulation to your brain.

[traderchpl]

The wage/benefit cuts that will have to happen to make US manufacturing profitable again will be staggering. Even at that point, basic vehicle assembly like the Asian brands do in the South might still be possible. But, parts suppliers will never again be able to make it if they have plants here. But for all of us who are clamoring for the UAW to bend over should realize this: it will not be long (as in, decades) before nearly all industries/businesses will be forced to do the same thing. If/when you have children, make sure they go to Med School or Law School, open up landscaping businesses, or become government employees. Provided there will still be people able to pay for their services, they might be OK. I'm not saying the sky is falling. That said, the ship is already taking on water, and the ONLY thing that will stop it (in MY opinion) is if some major patriotic revival occurs in the US (in which people purchase goods and services based on conscience). And I don't see that happening: For example, I know alot of good people, who even have kids, and who refuse to purchase (or even test drive) a "domestic" nameplate auto even though they know what they are doing to their children's future. I mean they are educated, so they KNOW it, but they just don't care. As far as the problems GM is facing above and beyond those of the rest of American industry, the ONLY people to blame are the ones who (incompetently and maliciously) ran the company into the ground the past 40 years. And I'm not saying that because I am pro-union (because I'm not pro-union).

[regfootball]

Pull your heads out of your ass's boys. The industry isnt going to survive your beloved "global economy". Like I said before if we gave GM our children for free labor it would'nt change a thing. Your all too narrow minded and drivin by anger about something that may or may not have come down the shaft at you. You want to act like pension funds were not made, you want to act like workers didnt save while they indeed did. It was a pension fund, GM did not maintain it. The workers tried hard to get GM to keep employment up, jobs open, factorys working, yet the pocket lining decision makers you all are proping up decided to pay them full pay and not keep the jobs in house. While at the same time our government opened the doors wide open to products from near slave labor countries.

So now we are up to a firm $90,000- $100,000 per year for line workers, what are you going to be up to next week ? $120,000-$140,000

Do you think the economies of the areas these people live in are drivin by their wages ? Are property tax's, school tax's, real estate, rent costs reflected by the standard of living in the area ? So then what happens when you chop someones wage by over 50% which is what has been proposed ? No sweat right ?

Then to top it all off you wanna act like if they will only suffer through, tax/morgage forclosures, reposessions, no retirement plan, I would suspect probably homeless because I know rent cant be made at the wages proposed, with all that sacrifice you wanna act like it can save America from your global plan.

Now the impact of this global economy is just upon us, and you dont want to get down to the real issues and cause/effect at hand,  so shut your mouths and deal with how ugly it really is.

Hell, I wouldnt cave either if the only answers to a much larger problem that anyone could come up with was throwing me into poverty.

[post="27687"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

yes there are all those outside forces, but still, sooner or later, either the workers accept compensation cuts to keep their jobs or all the jobs go bye bye. The external factors will not be fixed anytime soon. It comes down to, do you want the job or not. Its a cute idea to stand up for a matter of principle, but the numbers laugh at principles and will make the decision. Fix what you can now that is under your control. property tax's, school tax's, real estate, rent costs are influenced by so many other things there is no possible way to recitify them to allow GM to continue to prop up an arbitrary (not market set) compensation level.

As for the global economy, there is no way to stop it, it can be tempered. But reality is we cannot sustain ourselves with only our own resources and knowledge. Isolationism would be our quick and nasty downfall on so many fronts. Edited October 12, 2005 by regfootball

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Hell, I wouldnt cave either if the only answers to a much larger problem that anyone could come up with was throwing me into poverty.

That's an excellent statement that pleads the UAWs case perfectly...

Times have changed, this is a NATIONAL issue and reality for America workers sucks. And it won't get any better any time soon, if ever.

[bowtie_dude]

If the auto industry can't survive a global economy then it doesn't deserve to live.

[razoredge]

If the auto industry can't survive a global economy then it doesn't deserve to live.

[post="27709"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

but yet another suffering from lack of oxygen

[Clownzilla]

If the auto industry can't survive a global economy then it doesn't deserve to live.

[post="27709"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

You are EXACTLY right! The UAW does not understand that this is a world economy, and the rules are the rules of the world, not the USA alone. The world rules state "If you can't survive in the world with Japan, China, Germany, etc. making things better and/or cheaper, you die! Like stated before in this thread, there are too many people in this country that are not loyal to their contries' industry. I buy American wherever I can, but
I beleive that I'm in the minority. A patriotic duty to buy American is what can save GM in the current state they are in, since that won't happen, the UAW needs its benefits and wages cut drasticaly, or we will need to see "Made in Bejeing" on the GM vehicles we buy. It's the UAW's choice to work with GM, or DIE!!!!

[bowtie_dude]

but yet another suffering from lack of oxygen

[post="27718"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because Heaven forbid I get the best products at the best price. :rolleyes: Read a book lately? Socialism is SO last century!

[SingleStylish]

How much are member dues to the UAW? How much money does it take to staff an organization that controls staff? If the UAW disappeared as an organization and line workers accepted benefits and pay bases just like the white colar workers this discussion would me moot. The better question is this: When will US citizens quit drawing lines and distinctions and start living together? Too many try to make EVERYTHING these days black and white... just like gay rights... abortion... free speech... "right" to privacy... Nothing in life is this way. If more understood that then you would create the situations like these. Fact is this, corporations and workers (also read GM and UAW) have all been guilty of distancing themselves from each other. If the workers were extremely understanding and exuctives cared more about quality of life than shareholder return (see Southwest Airlines), you would see companies that could function. Companies and workers create these messes when one is not rewarded or given concessions when things go well or go wrong. Here's to the end of name calling... SERIOUSLY!!! STOP!

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

If the auto industry can't survive a global economy then it doesn't deserve to live.

[post="27709"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Okay, so pretty much ALL American industry should die???

Because, obviously it isn't just the auto industry that's struggling. I hope everyone has fun when this happens (All our industry dies) being poor and working at a shi**y 'service' job making fat cat executives in 2nd world countries happy.

I don't know why Americans are so blinded by this "global economy, America must suffer, but it'll all work out" :bs:

America will suffer and it WILL NOT work out unless something is done.

I hope we do hit rock bottom just to teach the naive a lesson.

[vetteman]

The reality that the UAW better face sooner than later is that is it MUCH, MUCH cheaper for GM & Ford to manufacture vehicles in Canada, Australia, Mexico, China, etc, than it is in the US. It would have been unheard of 20 years ago for GM to make a vehicle outside of the US to sell within the US. Now, BECAUSE of the unions, they HAVE TO make their vehicles outside of the US to be anywhere near profitable. If the unions don't change their ways, they'll watch GM & Ford slowly move all of their new plants to countries where they don't have to deal with them. Do you really think that Toyota, Honda, or Hyundai would be opening the number of plants in the US if they had to deal with the UAW and pay the wages that those workers make? I'm sure that it wouldn't happen.

[Drew Dowdell]

Because Heaven forbid I get the best products at the best price.  :rolleyes:  Read a book lately?  Socialism is SO last century!

[post="27723"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

If GM goes under complete. The rest of the automobile companies out there won't be able to pick up the slack. There will be tons of people out of work around the globe.

All the GM suppliers
All the GM dealers
All the GM factories

Know how many workers that is? I don't, but I bet it's huge.

[bowtie_dude]

Okay, so pretty much ALL American industry should die???

Because, obviously it isn't just the auto industry that's struggling. I hope everyone has fun when this happens (All our industry dies) being poor and working at a shi**y 'service' job making fat cat executives in 2nd world countries happy.

I don't know why Americans are so blinded by this "global economy, America must suffer, but it'll all work out" :bs:

America will suffer and it WILL NOT work out unless something is done.

I hope we do hit rock bottom just to teach the naive a lesson.

[post="27739"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Because thats obviously the only course America will take, yes? :rolleyes:

[OB_ohio]

Razoredge is the only one in this discussion who doesn’t have tunnel vision. The unions are still a wage-stabilizing factor in the US economy. Some say, “Well look at the transplants. They are non-union and pay competitive wages. There is no doubt they would continue to pay competitive wages if the UAW wages where halved. The wages they paid would be competitive with those halved wages. Salaried workers wouldn’t fare much better. Why would GM pay a salaried first line supervisor $75-100K a year (including overtime) is those who report to them are only making $20K? They wouldn’t. And if GM isn’t paying high salaries, why would Ford, DCX, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc? Answer: they wouldn’t either. There would likely be a downward pressure on wages across the board, starting with OEMs, moving to Tier 1 suppliers, then Tier 2, and so forth. Soon, the accounting firm you just hired into pays you $10 an hour. Why not, where else are you going to go? It’s market economics just like you guys are arguing for. Unions are not socialist. They are operating on the labor market. Fortunately, they have a monopoly on a chunk of the market and can demand higher prices. If they weren’t there, there would be no positive wage pressure. First of all, Vetteman is way off, but he sure does know how to propagate a myth. A direct labor line worker doesn’t make $90-100K a year, even factoring in their solid benefit packages. (I worked in a GM assembly plant as a maintenance supervisor (non-union) for years and know what they make). A starting employee makes less than $15 an hour, while a soon to retire one maybe makes $28. That’s $30K to $56K a year. Add overtime (you try being on your feet on concrete floors for 12 hours a day working- it’s no treat) to keep up with demand (if there is any) and those might be up to $40K-$60K. That’s a fine salary coming out of high school. A skilled tradesman who’s been around for 20 years might make $100K working 7-12s, but does he have a life? And he’s be training for years through apprenticeships, etc. Who do people think are the customers for the businesses they work for? There is not a vast, faceless purchasing class that keeps the economy going. It is your neighbor who has disposable income to buy a boat because he works in a food manufacturing plant. In turn, the janitor at the boat plant can take his wife out to eat at the restaurant that your brother works at during the summer. The restaurant can buy food from the food manufacturer. It’s a cycle that only ends when A) all our disposable income is sent overseas buying foreign goods, or B) we have no disposable income due to our “global” salaries which allow us to eek out a living. Why do people assume that by slowly eliminating the middleclass that “America” will be more competitive and prosperous. Manufacturing touches every aspect of the US economy. Instead of bitching about how good other guys have it, why don’t more people demand improved wages and benefits? Why are a lot of people resigned to hand over the profits to the corporations (and their majority un-middleclass stockholders), only to wait by the table for scraps to fall? People who think that corporations are going to look after them are foolish and in for a surprise.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Fortunately, they have a monopoly on a chunk of the market and can demand higher prices.  If they weren’t there, there would be no positive wage pressure.

[post="27774"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

All while GM has a negative pricing structure, meaning GM loses more and more each year. Then GM collapses and you wont have to worry about wages, because there wont be any jobs.

[vetteman]

A direct labor line worker doesn’t make $90-100K a year, even factoring in their solid benefit packages.

Maybe I exaggerated the line workers pay a bit, but you neglected to mention what value that 'solid benefit package' might have. How much do you think that FULL health insurance coverage for the employee and his family (not just while you work there, but until you die), a substantial retirement pension, and a JOB BANK that allows you to get 90% of your pay while you sit at home. If you take just health insurance into consideration, let's say it costs $1000/month for coverage for employee/family, that seems to be $12000 a year. On an average 2000 hour year, that converts to $6 an hour for just health insurance. Seems to me that the 'solid benefit package' is a little more than an unmentioned benefit.

A starting employee makes less than $15 an hour, while a soon to retire one maybe makes $28. That’s $30K to $56K a year. Add overtime (you try being on your feet on concrete floors for 12 hours a day working- it’s no treat) to keep up with demand (if there is any) and those might be up to $40K-$60K. That’s a fine salary coming out of high school. A skilled tradesman who’s been around for 20 years might make $100K working 7-12s, but does he have a life? And he’s be training for years through apprenticeships, etc.

My FATHER has worked in a food manufacturing plant as a line supervisor for 25+ years, walking everyday on that same concrete floor you speak of. He worked those same 12 hour days and missed alot of my games, etc, so I agree it's no life. But today, after 25+ years on his job, he makes $55k a year. He doesn't get full health coverage, although the company pays a large percentage of his insurance. His retirement is in the form of a company 401k in which he contributes a percentage of his weekly pay and the company adds a couple of percent match. He doesn't complain or begrudge those who make more than he does, as he has only a high school degree, in fact he feels fortunate to have worked for a company who has given him a stable job and income.

I'm not saying that union workers don't work hard. I'm not saying to fire them all, and hire replacements at half the cost. I'm simply saying that auto workers have NO concept of the real labor market that exists outside of the auto industry and the protection of the UAW.

[rkmdogs]

I have listened to all the "finger-pointers" on this thread til I'm blue in the face, but you have all missed the elephant in the refrigerator! I'm talking about our Federal government, and the laws that have been passed that reward companies that go offshore, and penalize companies that stay here. Futhermore, these foreign manufacturers that choose to come here to make their products only do it because we give them the welcome mat and concessions that will lay on the backs of our grand-kids. And nobody has even mentioned the elephants cousin, NAFTA and now CAFTA, which were blessed and endorsed by the politicians that you didn't elect, because you can't be bothered by "voting"! Global economy is B/S! It onlt exists because of greed and ignoring the fact that FAIR trade and free trade are not the same! We are still considered those dumb Americans, around the world. AND, our planet savers choose to ignore the reality of TODAY, and constantly wish for, "tomorrow" This whole dilemma requires envolvment, not sideline quarterbacks, who just fingerpoint and say, "go in there George and win the game." Except that George isn't an American anymore! He's Latin, or Japanese, or Korean, or some other ethnicity who couldn't care less about Americans, except for the size of their wallet----- and Washington keeps digging into it, to appease them so that "they will like us!" That is truly a dream that is turning into a nightmare!!!!

[CARBIZ]

Guys, all this is water under the bridge. Japan Inc. is here. Free Trade is here. Either America learns to compete on the world stage, or pull up and go home - and if that happened, well, 1929 would look like a picnic. World commerce is too intertwined to undo at this juncture; however, offshoring all industrial production will kill this country, too. Somehow, these legacy costs will have to go away. GM is in shrinking market share and is still paying for more people off the line than on! Toyota and Honda don't have this problem. We can argue about whose fault it is, but union workers will be standing next to the white collar guys if GM goes chapter 11, of that we can be sure. Really, short term shareholder greed is the root cause of this mess. When a board is more afraid of losing their jobs than doing what is right for the company. The auto business is probably the worst place to be for short term thinking! Wall Street is the real problem here, but again - it is too late to worry about that. We have to move forward. The UAW has to face reality. If they want to exact revenge and demand Wagoner go, would that help things? Could someone better be enticed if the ship is going down? If GMAC is sold off, would that help things? One big mess. I only hope that somebody at corporate saw this coming and that they are a couple steps ahead of Delphi.

[rkmdogs]

Guys, all this is water under the bridge.
Japan Inc.  is here.  Free Trade is here.  Either America learns to compete on the world stage, or pull up and go home - and if that happened, well, 1929 would look like a picnic.

Hey Carbiz, we still have the option of putting on the brakes via Congress!

  World commerce is too intertwined to undo at this juncture; however, offshoring all industrial production will kill this country, too.

Correct, but you guys belly up to the trough for American bucks, too!

Somehow, these legacy costs will have to go away.  GM is in shrinking market share and is still paying for more people off the line than on!  Toyota and Honda don't have this problem.

And they also get tax credits, or don't pay any!

  We can argue about whose fault it is, but union workers will be standing next to the white collar guys if GM goes chapter 11, of that we can be sure.
  Really, short term shareholder greed is the root cause of this mess.

When was the last time you went to a board meeting and demanded somebody's job?

When a board is more afraid of losing their jobs than doing what is right for the company.    The auto business is probably the worst place to be for short term thinking!  Wall Street is the real problem here, but again - it is too late to worry about that.
We have to move forward.  The UAW has to face reality.  If they want to exact revenge and demand Wagoner go, would that help things?  Could someone better be enticed if the ship is going down?  If GMAC is sold off, would that help things?
  One big mess.  I only hope that somebody at corporate saw this coming and that they are a couple steps ahead of Delphi.

[post="27834"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The Titanic thought it was fail-safe too!

[Sixty8panther]

Depressing for sure... :mellow: No other single company in the world woudl have as big of an (negative) impact if it went under... not one.

[rkmdogs]

All of you sooth-sayers need to go back and read Ayn Rands' book, "Atlas Shrugged", if you can still find a copy! What she proposed as fiction is now coming into reality! The average person apparently does not understand the concept of independence thru manufacturability. If you have to beg, borrow, trade or ask for any item you NEED, not just desire, then you are not free or independent. You cannot then interreact with other people on an equal basis. When we shipped our manufacture abilty off-shore, we lost our independence. :bowdown:

[regfootball]

All of you sooth-sayers need to go back and read Ayn Rands'
book, "Atlas Shrugged", if you can still find a copy!

What she proposed as fiction is now coming into reality!

The average person apparently does not understand the concept of
independence thru manufacturability. If you have to beg, borrow, trade or ask for any item you NEED, not just desire, then you are not
free or independent. You cannot then interreact with other people on
an equal basis.
When we shipped our manufacture abilty off-shore, we lost our independence.  :bowdown:

[post="27864"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

it's the walmart loving mentality of our folks that has perpretrated the cheap at all costs culture. tell walmart to stop selling chinese shit then.

[mrfunji]

The problem is the UAW workers have been living off their overtime pay. When I got my mortage a few months back the bank asked me my base salary and then how much overtime - and could have adjusted the mortage amount based on the overtime, which is absurd. All these people who are getting loans based off overtime are crazy and that is why so many will hit financial instability when concessions come. Because UAW workers had such a sweet deal for so long, every one took advantage of it. You can sit back and finger point all you want - GM, UAW, Lending Institutions, etc. The reality is something needs to happen, and the companies that change will survive. Those that don't will not. Darwinism applies itself in many places.

[TKR]

Don't talk to me about fair trade. Farming subsidies?? New Zealand now has bugger all manufacturing because global companies (not all American) have been manufacturing in cheap places for a long time and a small country cannot compete. Nike anyone? Consumers demand cheaper products so companies respond as long as governments let them. Welcome to the 21st century. As far as GM is concerned, what is wrong with the Opel (GM) Vectra being sold in different markets whilst remaining essentially the same except for specs / badging? If Toyota can do it with Camry / Avalon / Corolla then so can GM. Totally redesigning a car for different markets is why GM is loosing money. From what I have been reading lately US tastes are not as different from European tastes as every designer seems to believe. If it costs $80m to design 1 car and GM does it twice for different markets but Toyota does it once but spends $100m instead to make the car reliable and have quality interiors who wins? I have been a Holden / GM fan since I can remember and now sell the product so I really want to see GM not only survive but to be the best (not only in volume). Really looking forward to next year - VE, S3X etc. Edited October 13, 2005 by TKR

[CARBIZ]

TKR, I couldn't agree more. I look at what Opel and Vauxhall gets and ask myself: why the hell don't we have those products here? Does Detroit think everyone wants a gas guzzling SUV? We all laughed at the Prius a couple years back, now Detroit is scrambling to become relevant again. Frankly, I think Oshawa would be better positioned to attack Toyota and Honda is Oshawa was aligned with Europe, rather than Detroit!

[regfootball]

Don't talk to me about fair trade. Farming subsidies??

[post="28105"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

haha, I'm glad someone else sees the highway robbery going on in that industry. Farmers are the most government incentivized propped up giveaways in this country.

and true, the tastes of Americans would love to see more global type cars. Detroit has been naive to think that everyone wants an AMURCHAN flavored car. Edited October 13, 2005 by regfootball

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

[quote]Because thats obviously the only course America will take, yes? [/quote]

Yes.

Don't you honestly think that if they (By they I mean Uncle Sam) were going to do something about it that they would have by now? That they would have when it actually MEANT something and would've actually helped?
I'm glad that you can be that happy-go-lucky; I'm preparing for the worst, because that's always what happens, especially now and ESPECIALLY pertaining to GM

[quote]I'm talking about our Federal government... NAFTA and now CAFTA,[/quote]

I agree and they are the FOCAL point of my blame.

[quote]which were blessed and endorsed by the politicians that you didn't elect, because you can't be bothered by "voting"![/quote]

I didn't vote last election because it doesn't matter... The people never elect anyone in the first place, it's all ran by the Electorals and the pacts and committees that pull their strings. Obviously the popular vote doesn't matter or Al Gore would've been seeking re-election last year (Not that I like Al that much either)

[quote]We are still considered those dumb Americans, around the world....and Washington
keeps digging into it, to appease them so that "they will like us!"[/quote]

So true!

[quote]If you have to beg, borrow, trade or ask for any item you NEED, not just desire, then you are not
free or independent. You cannot then interreact with other people on
an equal basis.
When we shipped our manufacture abilty off-shore, we lost our independence. [/quote]

EXCELLENT POST!!! :metal:

[quote]As far as GM is concerned, what is wrong with the Opel (GM) Vectra being sold in different markets whilst remaining essentially the same except for specs / badging?[/quote]

The UAW will not allow it! They almost flipped out over 20,000 GTOs being imported and sold here per year. They most certainly would hit the roof if 100-200,000 Vectras hit the shores.

[quote]If GM goes under complete. The rest of the automobile companies out there won't be able to pick up the slack. There will be tons of people out of work around the globe.

All the GM suppliers
All the GM dealers
All the GM factories

Know how many workers that is? I don't, but I bet it's huge.[/quote]

Sure... BUT HEY, this is AMERICA... Who cares; RIGHT?

As long as [insert scripted response] "I can buy the best product at the cheapest price I don't care where it's made" [/insert scripted response] "It could be made in Cuba for all I care, because ultimately pledging alligence and money to enemies is more patriotic than buying American so long as I get the best fundamental product. As long as I fulfill MY needs and as long as I'm okay, then to hell with the other guy, my country, and the jobs in it."

AS LONG AS I'M HAPPY AND I BELIEVE WHAT I'M TOLD; NOTHING ELSE MATTERS

WARNING: Sarcasm abounds throughout the last part of this post.

[bowtie_dude]

Yes.
Don't you honestly think that if they (By they I mean Uncle Sam) were going to do something about it that they would have by now-that they would have when it actually MEANT something and would've actually helped?
WARNING: Sarcasm abounds throughout this post.

[post="28296"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

The government shouldn't have to give GM or any company a loan just so they can stay competitive. The only help GM needs and should get from the government is pressure to the Japanese government to practice free trade.

[bowtie_dude]

haha, I'm glad someone else sees the highway robbery going on in that industry.  Farmers are the most government incentivized propped up giveaways in this country.

and true, the tastes of Americans would love to see more global type cars.  Detroit has been naive to think that everyone wants an AMURCHAN flavored car.

[post="28286"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

A lot of people here think the same thing.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

The government shouldn't have to give GM or any company a loan just so they can stay competitive.  The only help GM needs and should get from the government is pressure to the Japanese government to practice free trade.

[post="28302"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'm not asking for a handout to GM.

I'm asking them to get off of their asses (As if) and FIX the national healthcare and pension problems.

This is bigger than GM and is bigger than the automotive industry itself.

[bowtie_dude]

I'm not asking for a handout to GM.

I'm asking them to get off of their asses (As if) and FIX the national healthcare and pension problems.

This is bigger than GM and is bigger than the automotive industry itself.

[post="28306"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Then we do agree on one thing. Though I'm not entirely sure we agree on what the solution is since mine doesn't involve government provided healthcare.

[Snate]

eh I said after the results of the election that this country was far too concerned about religion and morality and not nearly enough about the health of the country. As for the UAW...sorry but most unions are overpayed...I said it once and I'll say it again..unions should be more focused on job security than pay increases right now.

[TKR]

QUOTE
As far as GM is concerned, what is wrong with the Opel (GM) Vectra being sold in different markets whilst remaining essentially the same except for specs / badging?

The UAW will not allow it! They almost flipped out over 20,000 GTOs being imported and sold here per year. They most certainly would hit the roof if 100-200,000 Vectras hit the shores.

So the UAW would rather see GM go bust instead? Worst case scenario - if GM closed the doors (very unlikely I know) then what chance is there that the employees will continue to get paid? Or continue to get health benefits? Maybe they could get jobs with Toyota or Nissan. Maybe the UAW is in bed with Toyota? (ok - just joking) <_< Edited October 13, 2005 by TKR

[CaddyXLR-V]

QUOTE

So the UAW would rather see GM go bust instead?

[post="28353"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Yes, they would. Just look up some of the post here. The union is going to stike at Delphi, because they would rather fight and get nothing, than concede and keep the company alive.
I hope Delphi pulls through, and sheds the union. Edited October 13, 2005 by CaddyXLR-V

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

Then we do agree on one thing.  Though I'm not entirely sure we agree on what the solution is since mine doesn't involve government provided healthcare.

[post="28311"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I'll be perfectly honest... I'm not sure how to fix it.

From a financial standpoint government sponsored healthcare would be a great solution but everything that I read about nations with government provided healthcare is negative. But then again, I haven't had any first hand experience with that either and I don't trust the media.

[PontiacTechNJ]

I'll be perfectly honest... I'm not sure how to fix it.

From a financial standpoint government sponsored healthcare would be a great solution but everything that I read about nations with government provided healthcare is negative. But then again, I haven't had any first hand experience with that either and I don't trust the media.

[post="28435"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Who's finanacial standpoint , certainly not MINE . 53% of all healthcare in this country ( US) is paid by the government , GOVERNMENT IS THE PROBLEM . Your Socialist views towards healthcare are misguided , taxpayers get ripped off enough in this country , time to scale back all of these "entitlements " we are going bankrupt . Edited October 13, 2005 by PontiacTechNJ

[bowtie_dude]

I'll be perfectly honest... I'm not sure how to fix it.

From a financial standpoint government sponsored healthcare would be a great solution but everything that I read about nations with government provided healthcare is negative. But then again, I haven't had any first hand experience with that either and I don't trust the media.

[post="28435"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Government sponsored anything is never great. You, of all people, should know that.

[CaddyXLR-V]

Government sponsored anything is never great.  You, of all people, should know that.

[post="28456"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

I agree, just look at USPS compared to UPS or Fedex, and you can see the differences. I like getting whats shipped to me in one piece, so I'll use Fedex and UPS when I have a choice.

[Lance Truthhammer]

While I understand the complaints of many in this forum about the UAW asking for too much, something about the way it is said bothers me. Something about the way these detractors often rant about how the UAW needs to conform to the demands of the “Global Economy” or “DIE” strikes me as too simplistic. Something about a person saying “the numbers will decide” sounds alienated and out of touch to me. In these debates the common tendency is toward finger-pointing, creating artificial enemies, and holding tight to an abstract theory to prove others wrong. This lends itself to too many answers and too few questions. We tend to forget that we are talking about real people with meaningful human lives and true consequences for the vitality of larger human communities. When we speak of wage reductions/benefit cuts the theoretical solution is far easier than the results. Real lives are impacted. People speak of the UAW as a faceless, heartless, mindless organization when in reality the people it is composed of are no different than you or me. They have dreams, hopes, and aspirations that their children may live in a world with less violence, less disease, more opportunities, and more hope than the world they grew up in. And they make serious choices, rightly or wrongly, that lend themselves, in their eyes, to these ends. The reality is far too complex to assign labels to. Countless faces, hearts, and minds make up the UAW – not numbers. Reality does not accept one-size fits all theories of economics – look no further than free market experiments in Russia, Africa, and much of Eastern Europe, or the state-led development failures in much of post-colonial Africa, the Soviet Union among others. Reality demands more complexity, more trial and error than many experts are willing to afford it. We do know that economies have done well if they have mixed both. I do not, for one, pretend to know what the correct path to follow. I do realize though, that the path we are on does not appear to have any easy solutions, and that, right now, things don’t look so hot for American manufacturers. I do know, for my very conscience tells me so, that we cannot let numbers guide us. Numbers have no feelings; they are unnatural. Numbers are abstract; they are unsympathetic. Numbers are oversimplifying and cold and dishonest. Humanity has feelings; it is governed by Moral and natural law. Humans have practicality; they can show sympathy. Humans are complex and capable of warmth and truth. I have a feeling that if we look at the human side of the Global “Free-Market” economy, we will see guiding principles more meaningful than any “Dependency Theory” or “Comparative Advantage Theory.” We need to reconnect with our brothers and sisters, and learn to walk in their shoes. We need to understand that we are more connected than we think we are, that individualism has its great strengths and its great weaknesses, and that just because a GDP increases somewhere does not mean people there are better off. I know, in my heart, that if my neighbor loses a job to a foreigner who will receive unfair wages, nobody is better off even if I can buy a cheaper car. I know that if my neighbor cannot afford needed medical treatment, I am that much less healthy. I know that if my neighbor has to retire to a life of abject poverty due to the lack of a pension and Social Security, the days of my old age are that much darker. We are connected in our destiny, more than we realize – that is, until we turn our attention to the human subject. I see the treatment of workers by manufacturers in China, and I know that something about it is out of touch with the core principles of humanity. The concept of justice is tangible in this world. Where there is a lack of respect, a lack of freedom, and a lack of hope there is a corresponding degradation of the larger human community. There is injustice. I cannot help but be hurt when I read the finger-pointing, hear the name calling, and watch the bland acceptance of some far away injustice. How falsely secure some feel. How encapsulated some can be into their imagined “I got here on my own, no thanks to nobody” histories. When someone says the UAW will be viable or it will die, I cannot help but look at what it is up against. How much do we demand they concede? Can we accept wage slavery over here if the market demands it? Should we accept wage slavery anywhere if the market demands it? Does the market have children? Does it have dreams? I don’t know the answers to any of these questions, I don’t mean them rhetorically. I am as new to this as anyone in this world. Globalization is real and it is as foreign to me as it is to anyone. Nobody has the answers. We only have trial and error, for better or worse. But, if I may, I would like to suggest, as a guiding principle, that the only proper way forward is one that originates from the heart, not a calculator. Even if it appears we are losing now, can standing up for what is right really be losing? Are not the only causes worth fighting for the lost causes? I don’t know. But, I am drawn to the famous words written by Dr. King years ago from within a Birmingham jail cell. “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” My conscience tells me it is true. E.S. Mail Edited October 13, 2005 by Lance Truthhammer

[Snate]

I agree, just look at USPS compared to UPS or Fedex, and you can see the differences. I like getting whats shipped to me in one piece, so I'll use Fedex and UPS when I have a choice.

[post="28490"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Too bad USPS isn't government sponsored....the only thing the government does is set up a board of directors who basically set the price of stamps. Since USPS is the only one that handles regular mail.....yea...you get why government is needed.

[sciguy_0504]

My business professor was talking about a book she read called "The Earth Is Flat" (or something along those lines) and how it really challenged her way of thinking about global trade and how Americans do business. According to this book (and her), we have, for too long, stopped producing a large number of children with a genuine interest in the maths and sciences and it's going to come back and bite us in the ass. We've been #1 for decades because we've constantly improved things either we or others have invented in order to fit our continually higher standards of living. By using our once-top notch education system we churned out scientist after scientist during WWII and the Cold War who then went off to invent or reinvent some awesome things. Foreigners started coming to the U.S. to be educated and then went back to their home countries to carry out what they've learned. That's why China, India and Co. are rapidly catching up to us and the U.S. is almost stagnant. Let's face it, manufacturing jobs are not going to come back to the U.S. anytime soon and probably will not until the rest of the world (meaning all 3rd world countries) is on par with us when it comes to standard of living, when manufacturing costs are equal. So you need to ask yourself a question: should we do what I think we should (see last sentence) or wait for the world to catch up so we can have a level playing field? We really do need to reinvent ourselves, our education system and our economy quickly.

[rkmdogs]

I don’t know the answers to any of these questions, I don’t mean them rhetorically.  I am as new to this as anyone in this world. 
E.S. Mail

[post="28496"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Mr./Ms Mail.....

A very elegant solilique, but TRUTH still stands tall and just saying so does not
turn black to white or vice-versa.
Trying to turn reality to grey is a futile exercise that defies the TRUTH.
Nature is the teacher of these truths. Animals do not feel guilt for their inate
habits, only man does!

We Americans seem to want quick, simplistic answers lately. I suggest that all
you participants go back and re-read the teachings of some of our founding
fathers. They were forged in a time of enduring hardships, and their TRUTHS
still apply to the nature of man today!
Our system of life and governance is unique in the history of the world.
It has been the most successful system of civilized community life in the history of the world.
Too many people today want to say, in this time of exploding technology it no
longer applies. THAT could not be further from the truth, than to say that black
is white---- just because I say so!
Respect for each other and decency values are the marks on our report card,
and currently, our gradepoint in these lessons leaves a lot to be desired. I
think that the lessons of hurricane Katrina in New Orleans could not make this
clearer!
Go back and re-read the Declaration of Independence, and why this country
was created. Try to find that in any third-world country!
Washington, George that is, said some powerful things about dealing with
people and other governments.......... we need to heed that advice now!