longtooth

Desperate Times

41 posts in this topic

Clearly, he has no idea what he is talking about. Britain has a thriving car industry...employs thousands of people! Vauxhall is a British company, not American. :rolleyes:

Couldn't have written the article better myself. Japan seems to have no troubles spending millions for 'Toyota's' Synergy drive system, so why shouldn't Washington pitch in for Ford and GM to come up with a fuel cell?

notgonnahappen.com

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I wanted to post this article too and see what everybody's take was on it. Actually, I think old Jerry was having a bad day. I think he's dead on for the most part, but I don't think we're going to see the complete and utter death of the domestic auto manufacturers in three years. Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM. It seems to me that GM and Ford are at least really trying to do what they need to do - and we all know that both of them are going to be coming out with a lot of new, fuel efficient cars that should at the very least help them have some cash flow for the next few years. One of the things that really doesn't get pointed out in a positive light from a lot of the mainstream analysts is how much GM and Ford have started or will start utilizing their European operations more and more over here in NA. That's going to help out a lot, because they're actually doing pretty well in Europe (and methinks it has something to do with the fact that their cars are good over there).

One thing that will indeed happen is the continued loss of market share - that's something that will probably be very sobering to a lot of GM and Ford fans. But, I think the cars will be good, and they'll sell enough to stay alive - but I think their presence will be a lot smaller.

I dunno, my guess is as good as any one else on this board, but I think Jerry is doing a little bit of exaggeration on this one.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wow!

That's a first, I agree with the old coot.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I wanted to post this article too and see what everybody's take was on it. Actually, I think old Jerry was having a bad day. I think he's dead on for the most part, but I don't think we're going to see the complete and utter death of the domestic auto manufacturers in three years. Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM. It seems to me that GM and Ford are at least really trying to do what they need to do - and we all know that both of them are going to be coming out with a lot of new, fuel efficient cars that should at the very least help them have some cash flow for the next few years. One of the things that really doesn't get pointed out in a positive light from a lot of the mainstream analysts is how much GM and Ford have started or will start utilizing their European operations more and more over here in NA. That's going to help out a lot, because they're actually doing pretty well in Europe (and methinks it has something to do with the fact that their cars are good over there).

One thing that will indeed happen is the continued loss of market share - that's something that will probably be very sobering to a lot of GM and Ford fans. But, I think the cars will be good, and they'll sell enough to stay alive - but I think their presence will be a lot smaller.

I dunno, my guess is as good as any one else on this board, but I think Jerry is doing a little bit of exaggeration on this one.

For 'effect'?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
For 'effect'?

I dunno, perhaps. Maybe I'm trying to be more optimistic.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Clearly, he has no idea what he is talking about. Britain has a thriving car industry...employs thousands of people! Vauxhall is a British company, not American. :rolleyes:

Flint wrote, "But we would be like Britain, which has no British-owned auto companies.". Vauxhall is owned by GM, isn't it?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flint wrote, "But we would be like Britain, which has no British-owned auto companies.". Vauxhall is owned by GM, isn't it?

Hence, my 'rolling eyes' icon. Vauxhall and Opel ARE owned by GM and are, therefore, now American companies, but a certain somebody on this Board insists that they are not. :AH-HA_wink:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

To be fair, tobacco's done it's best in controlling population growth. Especially Marlboro Lights: The standard issue cigarette of teen-aged girls.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Flint is right FOGM is right.

it doesn't excuse the poor management of Detroit's 'best' but still, they have had to deal with issues the Japanese haven't. The Germans get by on the 'we'll pay way too much for a 3 series' factor.

It's most disturbing that now 54% of so called Amercans won't even look at a domestic brand, despite they put out some really good stuff these days.

And Japan has put out some real stinkers the last few years, notably Toyota.

54%. won't even look.

The only way you'll get supposed citizens in this country to even consider US cars is to move the automakers out of Detroit and to some hip and trendy spot like LA, Seattle, New York or whatever, it's just so uncool for cool people to be somewhere like detroit, must not be enough mocha there.....shut down all the factories and reopen new ones in non union environments or overseas.......buy off all the press like toyota does and start sending huge dollars to the politicians.

At least GM is trying. They threw up their hands at making 'north american' products anymore. The new Cobalt next year will be Asian, so that should satisfy the humpers. The next Aura will be German, so that will satisfy the humpers.

The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

Edited by regfootball
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We're america... Everybody's bitch.

I predict that eventually we will either have a very small domestic auto industry or none at all. And I predict that MOST americans are itching for this to happen anyway. Everybody hates Detroit for one reason or another, we've been conditioned to since birth and nothing will change that.

Just like we killed textiles, just like we killed tobacco, just like we killed silicon, just like we killed steel, we will kill the automobile industry.

:yes:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

Quote of the year!

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Couldn't have written the article better myself. Japan seems to have no troubles spending millions for 'Toyota's' Synergy drive system, so why shouldn't Washington pitch in for Ford and GM to come up with a fuel cell?

The U.S. government contributed to a well funded consortium of American manufacturers, Government agencies, and Universities until 2000-2001.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

jan 2001 was when everything started sucking and ruined a lot of our country. jan 2009 cannot come soon enough. 8 years of dark hell everyone wants to forget.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Whose fault is this? In no small part, Detroit's executives. Yes, Asian car companies cheated. They kept us out of their countries and kept their currencies weak. Yes, our government changed the rules so foreign brands could sell in domestic dealer showrooms, making it cheap for them to attack this market. Yes, our unions helped by ignoring the destruction they were causing until it was almost too late. State governments helped by giving foreign carmakers huge tax breaks when they build plants. Then there was bad luck, or whatever it is that has pushed gasoline prices to $4 a gallon."

plenty of fault to go around.

fret not, they wont be alone

8704_2.JPG

HudsonRed.JPG

packard_grill_443_sedan_limo_27.jpg

spaceball.gif

Lapel112.jpg

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Flint is right FOGM is right.

it doesn't excuse the poor management of Detroit's 'best' but still, they have had to deal with issues the Japanese haven't. The Germans get by on the 'we'll pay way too much for a 3 series' factor.

It's most disturbing that now 54% of so called Amercans won't even look at a domestic brand, despite they put out some really good stuff these days.

And Japan has put out some real stinkers the last few years, notably Toyota.

54%. won't even look.

The only way you'll get supposed citizens in this country to even consider US cars is to move the automakers out of Detroit and to some hip and trendy spot like LA, Seattle, New York or whatever, it's just so uncool for cool people to be somewhere like detroit, must not be enough mocha there.....shut down all the factories and reopen new ones in non union environments or overseas.......buy off all the press like toyota does and start sending huge dollars to the politicians.

At least GM is trying. They threw up their hands at making 'north american' products anymore. The new Cobalt next year will be Asian, so that should satisfy the humpers. The next Aura will be German, so that will satisfy the humpers.

The higher paid people in this country that fund the car markets don't care if our businesses are owned here, as long as they can live the self first overpaid lifestyle that goes with it for themselves, they don't care who ultimately controls the purse as long as they can suck off the hind tit.

It took years for the major Japanese automakers to earn the reputation they have today. Likewise it will take years for domestic automakers to regain the trust and interest of this supposed 54%, as there will always be a lag between perception and reality. Eventually buyers will take note of Toyota's declining quality, growing recalls, fleet sales, and incentives, and the recent strides made by GM and Ford.

Build better, cooler vehicles and consumers will come irrespective of HQ location - but it won't be immediate. To enthusiasts, the Sunfire and Windstar seem far, far away, but to the infrequent observer, that was just five years ago.

Edited by empowah
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

Edited by regfootball
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

The Domestics could well begin any turnaround (or continue to build on that which has already begun) if they simply remain faithful to the basics of quality and great design. Just my groggy Sunday-morning-waiting-for-the-coffee analysis. Let's finish the job.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The big question is how do the Big 3 get people back in their showrooms? The product is there for the most part, it's just getting people to realize it. I've worked with a few people over the last couple of years (2 men in their 50s stick out the most) that swear they will never buy another domestic automobile ever again - and their kids (a little younger than me) drive foreign too. It's tough to shake that bad reputation - and it's not like these 2 guys I'm thinking of are idiots either - they're educated dudes that keep up with current events and for the most part are pretty well read. But when it comes to cars (and they aren't "enthusiasts" like us), it doesn't matter what evidence you show them or tell them about (recent quality surveys, telling them to just look at the cars themselves), they'll hear nothing of it.

We on this board are emotional about cars, for a variety of different reasons we've all found ourselves attached to boards like this because there's something running through our veins that makes us sensitive to anything and everything that has to do with the automotive world. We're brand loyal (for the most part) and we're hyper-aware of this to the point that it drives us mad. But guys like my co-worker, he couldn't give a frog's fat rear end whether or not an icon like Buick goes away (he drove tons of Buicks apparently back in the day) - even if they're much improved. In his eyes, he associates the last few Buicks he had like that crappy lawnmower you had once that happened to snap belts on you all the time- so you swore that you'd never go back to it -or if you had a GE dishwasher and it flooded your kitchen, maybe you'd avoid GE dishwashers - same with him, his 2000 Regal apparently broke down a lot - so, as he puts it "I'm through with GM". And I believe him, he's definitely through with GM. He now drives a Mazda.

But, if GM were smart, and I have no doubt they have at least a couple of smart people floating around somewhere within the cubicles of their corporate headquarters - they'd get the word out, in an intelligent way that doesn't necessarily insult people, that lets them know that any thoughts they had of GM being junk needs to be thrown out the window. Clearly they aren't doing an effective job of getting this message across at all. I hardly see any of their newer cars on the road at all around here. It's amazing to me how that even with a car like the Malibu, which is a far nicer looking car than the new Camry and even the new Accord (which I like), still doesn't really sell that well in the big scheme of things.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The big question is how do the Big 3 get people back in their showrooms? The product is there for the most part, it's just getting people to realize it. I've worked with a few people over the last couple of years (2 men in their 50s stick out the most) that swear they will never buy another domestic automobile ever again - and their kids (a little younger than me) drive foreign too. It's tough to shake that bad reputation - and it's not like these 2 guys I'm thinking of are idiots either - they're educated dudes that keep up with current events and for the most part are pretty well read. But when it comes to cars (and they aren't "enthusiasts" like us), it doesn't matter what evidence you show them or tell them about (recent quality surveys, telling them to just look at the cars themselves), they'll hear nothing of it.

That is a good question...and how about all the people out there that have never owned a domestic, and their only experience with them is rental cars at the airport? I know many 20- and 30-somethings that never owned a domestic...they are happy with their Nissans, Hondas, Acuras, BMWs, Toyotas, Audis, VWs, etc...why would they switch? It's an uphill battle for the Detroit 3, certainly...

Edited by moltar
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well, Chrysler might be owned by a foreign company, but not Ford or GM.

Correction - the plants and employees of Chrysler will be owned by a foreign company.

And wouldn't it be ironic if Renault, who Chrysler squeezed out of their company once (via AMC), came back along with Nissan to take them over entirely?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
well, detroits cars are damn good today but the fact that so many people think they still build crap pisses me off.

japan's cars are not really much better if at all yet the press and public opinion is that japan inc is gold and us stuff is feces on the sidewalk on a hot day. there is not hardly that much difference in most price classes.

My 60-year-old father, a long-time import buyer (most recently Toyota for my mom and Honda for him), was amazed at the quality of the Malibu when we saw it at the Denver Auto Show recently. As he said, "I'd be proud to own this car. I'm glad GM finally gets it." He also really liked the Buick Lucerne (he was surprised that it offered a V8 engine), but is amazed at the amount of energy expended on the marketing of full-size trucks and SUVs.

Keep in mind that my dad generally views cars from a design/practicality standpoint. For instance, despite all of its other fine features, he immediately discounted the Ford Five Hundred for having a "crappy trunk" (specifically, with exposed hinges and poor finishing). He was also very impressed with the new Challenger and the Mustang Bullitt ("that's what these cars need to look like" - he never liked the last-gen Camaro, as it was too futuristic for his tastes), and has finally been vindicated by the HHR Panel in his wish for someone to build an economical panel truck (though he still wishes it came with 4WD of some kind). I suspect he'll be even more impressed when Ford finally brings over the Transit Connect.

He has also grown quite appreciative of my sister's Kia Sedona (perhaps the best cargo space value on the American market), is only half-convinced about my own Mazda 626 (since he hates its low stance compared to Mom's Camry), loved his old Subaru Justy and Suzuki Swift purchases, and thinks the Toyota FJ Cruiser is an overpriced plaything that doesn't justify its poor fuel economy or compromised design. And don't get him started about people who use pickup trucks as family sedans. The current Toyota Tundra, to him, is a bad mistake that Toyota never should have made - too big, too lacking in quality, and too much of everything he didn't like about American pickups.

Finally, he sees no reason why EVERY car shouldn't have a hybrid system. He wishes his own Element came with one, and still laments that Honda won't put their system on more vehicles that need it. He might have seriously considered the Saturn Vue Hybrid at one point, but it has never had enough usable cargo space for him.

What does all this tell us? That intelligent design, practical engineering, and competitive products can win over even the jaded import buyer. If the American makers keep that in mind, and continue working toward great products rather than easy profits, a turnaround IS possible.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor