Cadillac is moving down market...

[Sal Collaziano]

The V8 RWD SRX (which didn't sell well simply because it was odd looking) was replaced by a FWD V6 Equinox. The V8 RWD STS is going away - and NOTHING is replacing it (The XTS is not a replacement for the STS). The V8 DTS is being replaced by a V6 that rides on the same platform as a Chevy Impala and Buick LaCrosse.. Who cares if the V6 has slightly more horsepower than the Northstar? It's lacks in torque.. And the Northstar in the DTS was weak for the segment it competed in anyway. So the V6 may be just as good as the V8 in the old DTS. Wow. Great news. It's still too weak for a full-size luxury sedan.

A new CTS will replace the old CTS and will probably be a little bit bigger to compete more closely with cars like the 5, E, GS and M.. All these cars will offer V8s. The 550i (plus the 535i inline 6), the E550, the GS570 (coming next year) and the M56.. I don't even want to get into the Jaguar XF and 429 horsepower Hyundai Genesis coming next year). So technically, the STS is being replaced by a V6 CTS.

Cadillac is abandoning the V8 market in the mid-size and full-size segment.

I think the ATS is a great idea - but it's still a move down market. Not that it's a bad thing, however.. Cadillac needs a good 3-Series competitor.

What do people here generally think about Cadillac moving down market?

[smk4565]

You are spot on. I also don't know why they think they have to make the CTS bigger, it is already slightly larger than an E-class or Lexus GS. Cadillac is stuck with the corporate V6, and coming CAFE regulations. GM is a truck heavy company, they need cars to offset that, so Cadillac gets the short end of the stick on the CAFE front and in development dollars.

I don't know if it is fear or incompetence, but Cadillac seems unwilling to price a car at $50,000 or more. They have had two in their history, the Alante and XLR, both were busts. The STS-V was another high priced car that failed, as the STS in general has, and that is only a $46,000 car to start. I believe that Cadillac's plan is to make the CTS the mid-rang car at $40-50,000, the ATS at $30-40,000 and the XTS at the $46-55,000 slot currently held by the DTS.

My wonder is if Cadillac continues on the current path, they should be able to outperform Lincoln and Acura for the next 5-10 years, but come 2020, how much competition will Hyundai be bringing to the $30-45,000 range? 10 years ago Hyundai was an afterthought of the $20-30k range, now the Sonata is the #3 selling car in the segment. I do believe that Hyundai in 10 years time will be a solid player in the $30-45k segment, that could spell trouble for Lincoln and Acura that are just running out badge jobs of Fusions and Accords.

[Sal Collaziano]

The problem with the current CTS is it's interior volume. It may be big on the outside, but it's small on the inside. It's in between the 3-Series and 5-Series on the inside. The new CTS it supposed to level that playing field.

You're right about GM being a truck heavy company. It's unfortunate that Cadillac must suffer as a result of that..

Cadillac has trouble pricing vehicle with the competition because they cut too many corners. Even the new CTS interior - while I find it to be the most attractive in it's class, it's the cheapest.

I have a feeling Lincoln is going to be very competitive in the coming years. Acura is an afterthought to me. I doubt we'll be seeing anything significant from them. Hyundai is another story.....

[CSpec]

GM is a truck heavy company, they need cars to offset that, so Cadillac gets the short end of the stick on the CAFE front and in development dollars.

Ahhh, very insightful observation. CAFE was an incredibly stupid idea 35 years ago, but it just keeps getting more and more stupid with each president.

Also, the STS was never very good, so that's not a big loss.

[Sal Collaziano]

The scary part about the STS is how it's being replaced by a car that's even less powerful. How's that for moving backwards?

Ahhh, very insightful observation. CAFE was an incredibly stupid idea 35 years ago, but it just keeps getting more and more stupid with each president.

Also, the STS was never very good, so that's not a big loss.

[hyperv6]

The fact is Cadillac is repostioning their line up. We only see part of the picture at this point.

The ATS is coming and to give it room the CTS will grow a litte but not to STS size. The XTC sedan is ccoming and it will be STS to a little larger but with different mission than the CTS.

The larger RWD flag ship is also coming and will fill in with a larger car. Some are saying it could also be a coupe like a Bently GT. Not sure on that just something I read.

Cadillac needs to build from the ground up. You can just build a $100,000 Caddy and expect everyone to fall all over it and put that kind of money out when they have not even surpassed the competition with their lower cars. BMW was really built on the 3 series and once people found them good they moved to more expensive models as time went on.

Power will drop in many cars. Even the Euro luxury cars are moving to smaller engines in many cars and Hybrid systems. We will see much the same with Cadillac.

Till Cadillac gets the ATS and CTS to the point they are the class leaders not as good or nearly as good they still have work to do. If they can't get these right then who would want to shell out more for a almost as good car for a similar price.

As it is the SRX moving down has worked as sales have improved. The next step is to make it best in class.

[smk4565]

The fact is Cadillac is repostioning their line up. We only see part of the picture at this point.

The ATS is coming and to give it room the CTS will grow a litte but not to STS size. The XTC sedan is ccoming and it will be STS to a little larger but with different mission than the CTS.

The larger RWD flag ship is also coming and will fill in with a larger car.

Power will drop in many cars. Even the Euro luxury cars are moving to smaller engines in many cars and Hybrid systems. We will see much the same with Cadillac.

Till Cadillac gets the ATS and CTS to the point they are the class leaders not as good or nearly as good they still have work to do.

Cadillac has been re-positioning it's lineup for 8 years though. ATS is coming, new CTS is coming, a flagship is coming, competitive product is coming... Mercedes did all that 30 years ago. Why hasn't Cadillac already done it, why is it always "wait til next year"

Power isn't going away, just at GM it is. The S-class is replacing the 385 hp V8 with a 420 hp V8 with 500 lb-ft. This will be the new standard fare Mercedes V8. Yes, BMW and Mercedes make diesels and hybrids, but they are just compliments to their powerful gas engines. Cadillac doesn't have a diesel, and has one hybrid that gets 20 mpg.

I don't know that the ATS and CTS will ever get to the head of the class, that is the problem Cadillac has. By going down market as they have on some recent products, or cutting corners, they are constantly behind. I believe Cadillac is about 20 years behind Mercedes right now, and Mercedes is not standing still, so how does Cadillac catch them?

[Drew Dowdell]

The V8 RWD SRX (which didn't sell well simply because it was odd looking) was replaced by a FWD V6 Equinox. The V8 RWD STS is going away - and NOTHING is replacing it (The XTS is not a replacement for the STS). The V8 DTS is being replaced by a V6 that rides on the same platform as a Chevy Impala and Buick LaCrosse.. Who cares if the V6 has slightly more horsepower than the Northstar? It's lacks in torque.. And the Northstar in the DTS was weak for the segment it competed in anyway. So the V6 may be just as good as the V8 in the old DTS. Wow. Great news. It's still too weak for a full-size luxury sedan.

A new CTS will replace the old CTS and will probably be a little bit bigger to compete more closely with cars like the 5, E, GS and M.. All these cars will offer V8s. The 550i (plus the 535i inline 6), the E550, the GS570 (coming next year) and the M56.. I don't even want to get into the Jaguar XF and 429 horsepower Hyundai Genesis coming next year). So technically, the STS is being replaced by a V6 CTS.

Cadillac is abandoning the V8 market in the mid-size and full-size segment.

How come you and SMK can't see the Cadillac with V8 power? I can.

And at $62,165 for 556 hp compared to the E550i's $59k and 400hp, it will easily blow the BMW into the weeds. NONE of the other sedans you mention offer CTS-V power for that money.

Add on top of that... if your basis that Cadillac is moving down market since they aren't offering a V8 in their soft lux car, well, MB and Audi are ahead of Cadillac on that. Both are preparing to bring out 4-cylinder versions of their big daddy cars.

[smk4565]

How come you and SMK can't see the Cadillac with V8 power? I can.

And at $62,165 for 556 hp compared to the E550i's $59k and 400hp, it will easily blow the BMW into the weeds. NONE of the other sedans you mention offer CTS-V power for that money.

Add on top of that... if your basis that Cadillac is moving down market since they aren't offering a V8 in their soft lux car, well, MB and Audi are ahead of Cadillac on that. Both are preparing to bring out 4-cylinder versions of their big daddy cars.

Putting a big engine in a car doesn't necessarily make it better than the competition. Is the Dodge Charger better than a LaCrosse, CTS 3.6, G37, A4, or even a Maxima just because it has a big engine? The CTS-V in a straight line can beat a Mercedes or BMW, but in 10 years, the CTS will be full of squeaks and rattles, the leather will be worn out and cracked, interior trim pieces will be loose, etc. It just isn't as well made as a German car.

[Robert Hall]

How come you and SMK can't see the Cadillac with V8 power? I can.

And at $62,165 for 556 hp compared to the E550i's $59k and 400hp, it will easily blow the BMW into the weeds. NONE of the other sedans you mention offer CTS-V power for that money.

Add on top of that... if your basis that Cadillac is moving down market since they aren't offering a V8 in their soft lux car, well, MB and Audi are ahead of Cadillac on that. Both are preparing to bring out 4-cylinder versions of their big daddy cars.

The CTS-v is more of an M5 competitor, though, not a 550i competitor.

The CTS-v has a performance oriented interior in gray w/ vile carbon fiber and the aggro body work--they should offer a regular V8 model w/ the normal fascias and interior in luxury car trim (w/ wood, etc) to be comparable.

BMW has the 550i and M5; Mercedes the E550 and AMG E63. Different styles, different tuning.

Edited November 14, 2010 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Drew Dowdell]

Putting a big engine in a car doesn't necessarily make it better than the competition. Is the Dodge Charger better than a LaCrosse, CTS 3.6, G37, A4, or even a Maxima just because it has a big engine? The CTS-V in a straight line can beat a Mercedes or BMW, but in 10 years, the CTS will be full of squeaks and rattles, the leather will be worn out and cracked, interior trim pieces will be loose, etc. It just isn't as well made as a German car.

It took a 21 year old in an M3 to beat an 80 year old in a CTS-V around a track. Don't tell me the CTS-V is only a straight line car.

And the rest is Bull crap. None of the models introduced since Lutz came in are 10 years old yet for you to even know that. My CTS was as solid as the day I bought it when I turned it in 4 years later. I'm sure the trim pieces, cup holders, buttons, and switches falling off my ex's Passat were of the highest German quality.

The very idea that BMWs or Jaguars don't age is ludicrous.

[smk4565]

This car will tell you that performance isn't about doing one thing well, it is about doing everything well.

Edited November 14, 2010 by smk4565

[Drew Dowdell]

The CTS-v is more of an M5 competitor, though, not a 550i competitor.

The CTS-v has a performance oriented interior in gray w/ vile carbon fiber and the aggro body work--they should offer a regular V8 model w/ the normal fascias and interior in luxury car trim (w/ wood, etc) to be comparable.

BMW has the 550i and M5; Mercedes the E550 and AMG E63. Different styles, different tuning.

I disagree that the CTS-V doesn't count just because of the color of the interior trim bits.

An AMG63 or M5 is going to run you another 20-30 grand over a CTS-V.

What you're really saying is that Cadillac should offer a CTS-57 which is just an LS1 in a loaded CTS body.

This car will tell you that performance isn't about doing one thing well, it is about doing everything well.

except looking good.....

Had BMW ever made an M7.... you would have been able to make your point.

[smk4565]

Cadillac seems to be chasing Infiniti to a degree. Infiniti has a near the top of the class G37, and the M37/M56 is often considered one of thet op cars in the class, Car and Driver picked it twice over all the Germans. So Infiniti already has what Cadillac is trying to get with the 2014 ATS and CTS, yet where is Infiniti compared to Mercedes-Benz? Infiniti has half the recognition, brand power, and status as Mercedes does. Building and entry and mid-level car isn't enough if you really want to challenge the big guys.

I actually think Cadillac should give up on going after Mercedes and BMW and turn their focus on Lincoln, Acura, and Volvo. All three are weak, and if Cadillac can get a strong hold in that segment, they should survive in 10 years when Hyundai busts in there with their own luxury brand and puts all those weak brands under. What happened to Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury, Plymouth, and Saturn during the "rise of Sonata" can easily happen to Volvo, Lincoln and Acura in 10 years.

[Drew Dowdell]

Why do you guys always look at what Cadillac has on the table today as proof of failure due to some future import? SMK, you were famous for telling everyone how Cadillac was soooo sucky on the CTS because of how much it weighs... and "just you wait, the new 5-series will be here and be even lighter".... then once the day came... Tada! The 5-series is actually heavier than the CTS in certain trims! Sal mentions two future imports as proof of Cadillac's failure while failing to acknowledge that a new top line RWD Cadillac Sedan is coming in 2013 as a 2014 model.

If you guys can count future vehicles (that you speculate wildly on) as proof the imports win, than I can use the 2014 Cadillac whatever as proof you're wrong.

The only point that Sal might have is on the SRX. But the interior of that vehicle is a move up market over it's predecessor and it's only second in sales in it's class

[regfootball]

people seem to forget, cadillac's business model is based on many dealers, all who depend on a certain amount of volume, units, and a customer base that is not used to AMG class pricing. And for all the dip$h!s that seem to not get that the luxury class price levels are being redefined due to the recession. there is a lot of opportunity in the non stratospheric price points, because the ultra rich are looking for stealth luxury cars to not be gaudy about their wealth in, and in general people don't buy cars with their HELOC money anymore either.

The bubble will burst on overpriced cars also. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar will beat each other up for fewer and fewer buyers.

A lot of the ultra rich will actually buy more expensive cars to feed their egos even more, but Cadillac can't get any of those people in the next 5 years anyways.

Truth be told the jury is still out on whether both Buick and Cadillac will survive. Cadillac needs to hang on to some of the expectations of their past buyers, and that is not pricing in the level of the S class. A CTSV at 60 and change is quite a car and is a decent enough flagship .....for now. Cadillacs ultimate judgement day is coming soon, perhaps 2014, 2015......the ATS will be here, the CTS should be new, we'll see if the XTS is a flop and the 'flagship' Caddy should be almost on arrival. We'll find out if the SRX survives. In addition to that, we'll see where GM's commitment level is for other new models.

[smk4565]

people seem to forget, cadillac's business model is based on many dealers, all who depend on a certain amount of volume, units, and a customer base that is not used to AMG class pricing. And for all the dip$h!s that seem to not get that the luxury class price levels are being redefined due to the recession. there is a lot of opportunity in the non stratospheric price points, because the ultra rich are looking for stealth luxury cars to not be gaudy about their wealth in, and in general people don't buy cars with their HELOC money anymore either.

The bubble will burst on overpriced cars also. BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar will beat each other up for fewer and fewer buyers.

Well HELOC rates are very low right now, and you get the tax write off, so that is a good way to buy a car. But that is beside the point, Mercedes sales have seen a strong increase this year, the S-class is up 29% this year. So the economy isn't hurting people that can afford a $100,000 car. E-class is up over 50%.

I don't think Mercedes or BMW are overpriced. They are priced similar to the competition as they were 10 or 20 years ago. They are built to last, and have a loyal following. But I do agree with you that Cadillac can not get Mercedes level pricing. So Cadillac has to go down to Lincoln and Acura level, they can win there. They can't win against the Germans without significant investment from GM.

[Drew Dowdell]

HELOC rates are so low because no one can meet the qualifications for them anymore.

GM just surpassed Toyota in quarterly profit on a revenue of $34.1 billion, ...... you think GM's not going to be gearing up for a fight with that?

[smk4565]

Anyone else notice that the 5-series gets 32 mpg with a six cylinder? Can Cadillac make a 32 mpg V6 ATS and CTS, and if so, how long til we see it? Hyundai will have an 8-speed next year, and is working on a 10-speed transmission. I just wonder if Cadillac is really going to push the envelope, and come out with brand new 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines, 8-speed transmissions standard across the board, etc. Or will the 2013 ATS arrive with the same engine/tranny you got in an 08 CTS.

[FAPTurbo]

Lexus got to the 8-Speed base first, and everybody totally cared, dumped their BMW's and bought LS 460's.

[smk4565]

HELOC rates are so low because no one can meet the qualifications for them anymore.

GM just surpassed Toyota in quarterly profit on a revenue of $34.1 billion, ...... you think GM's not going to be gearing up for a fight with that?

I wonder how sustainable GM's profit is though. They had $60 billion in government money to play with over the past year, and got a free pass on a lot of bad past decisions. I am curious to see once they are stockholder owned again, and driven by quarterly profit, and managed the way the old GM was, will the success continue.

Sidebar, it would be funny if Toyota bought up a ton of GM stock, I know the Chinese want to buy a lot of it.

[Drew Dowdell]

Anyone else notice that the 5-series gets 32 mpg with a turbocharged six cylinder? Can Cadillac make a 32 mpg V6 ATS and CTS, and if so, how long til we see it? Hyundai will have an 8-speed next year, and is working on a 10-speed transmission. I just wonder if Cadillac is really going to push the envelope, and come out with brand new 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines, 8-speed transmissions standard across the board, etc. Or will the 2013 ATS arrive with the same engine/tranny you got in an 08 CTS.

And 240hp. If Cadillac put that in the ATS you'd be the first to rake them over the coals for being so low powered. BTW, the LeSabre, 88, and Bonneville could hit 33mpg highway back in 1993 on a 4-speed.

[smk4565]

And 240hp. If Cadillac put that in the ATS you'd be the first to rake them over the coals for being so low powered. BTW, the LeSabre, 88, and Bonneville could hit 33mpg highway back in 1993 on a 4-speed.

Not EPA rated, and I don't believe what people claim to get in a perfect scenario on a flat highway. Personally, I average 17 mpg in my Aurora, so gas mileage is of no concern to me. But I know many shoppers are fools, and rank gas mileage and safety at the top of their list.

I think 240 hp is fine for a base ATS, an A4 and 328i has less than that. If the ATS is 240 hp and 22/32 mpg, I think that would be quite appealing to a lot of consumers that don't care about speed, but want a solid handling car with good mileage. I wouldn't buy that model, I think 240 hp is weak, so I'd want at least 300 hp.

[Drew Dowdell]

I've done 33mpg in a '94 Bonneville from NJ to Pittsburgh and back. Not exactly flat. It was my mother's car prior to her current Aurora. The old fish-eye Sable was capable of the same. Did that trip myself also.

[smk4565]

The question is, does Cadillac keep moving down market, and aim for Lincoln and Acura? Or do they go all in, spend billions upon billions and go after the Germans? Because they can't half-ass it if they go up-market, they have to go all in.

[Drew Dowdell]

Actually, I think the Germans will start coming down market to Cadillac at the same time Cadillac resumes moving up.

4-cylinder XTS-TDI anyone?.... it will go up against the 4-cylinder S-class and A8.

However, what if Cadillac's target is no longer the Germans, but most of Lexus?

[balthazar]

Sal Collaziano ~ >>"I think the ATS is a great idea - but it's still a move down market."<<

What was the 1-Series ??? What about the upcoming FWD sub-1-series BMW; are those moves upmarket ???

Audi has the big Q7, but after BMW's X5, there's no 'MX5', but an X3 and talk of yet another, cheaper SUV. Are those moves upmarket ???

Years back there was an 8-series- been dead for decades- where's the replacement ??

Flagship M-1 exotic died after '81 - where's the replacement ??

You KNOW the BMW minivan is right around the corner despite what they protest; they HAVE to follow MB's r-wagon...

They gripe and moan incessantly about 'no 3-series competitor', then when one comes, it's 'it's a down market move- how do you feel about that? {here's a Kleenex.}'

The hypocrisy is something else.

Edited November 14, 2010 by balthazar

[Sal Collaziano]

When all is said and done, who the hell cares about the CTS-V? Does anybody buy it? No. How many CTS-Vs does Cadillac sell? It just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Cadillac needs a V8 that sells like a GS460, a 550i, an XF, a E550, an M56 and so on and so on and so on... The CTS-V is a hard core enthusiast car that you see very far and few between on the road. I can see tons of the aforementioned V8 vehicles before and after I see a new CTS-V. Cadillac needs a mid-size and a full-size luxury sedan with a V8 - just like everybody else. Or they're going to follow down the same stupid road as Acura.

In regards to the other brands who are making 4s and 6s for their vehicles - that's a GREAT idea. Those versions simply compliment the V8s. Cadillac doesn't offer the V8s anymore. They're abandoning that part of the market. You're okay with that?

Where does a current CTS owner go as he moves up in the world and wants a better vehicle? A FWD V6 XTS? No. Same question for the STS owner. Where does HE go? XTS? No. How about the DTS owner? He goes from a V8 FWD vehicle down to a V6 FWD vehicle that sits on the same platform as a Chevy Malibu.. Wow, that sounds exciting. What a move up.

Mercedes and BMW can sell their full-size luxury sedans with hamsters powering the thing - I don't care - as long as they still offer V8s for those who want them. I'm going to be in the market for another car soon - and I want to go back to full-size luxury. What does Cadillac have for me? NOTHING. So they're losing business from people like me AND people who already own Cadillacs who want to move up to something better. Not good...

How come you and SMK can't see the Cadillac with V8 power? I can.

And at $62,165 for 556 hp compared to the E550i's $59k and 400hp, it will easily blow the BMW into the weeds. NONE of the other sedans you mention offer CTS-V power for that money.

Add on top of that... if your basis that Cadillac is moving down market since they aren't offering a V8 in their soft lux car, well, MB and Audi are ahead of Cadillac on that. Both are preparing to bring out 4-cylinder versions of their big daddy cars.

[Sal Collaziano]

Your ex's Passat was made in Mexico. My wife used to be a service writer for Volkswagen and the ones made in Germany held together beautifully. The ones made in Mexico were horrific and very problematic.

I have plenty of CTS-V owners at my Cadillac Owners community who have no trouble AT ALL admitting the M5 is a far better built car than the CTS-V. The CTS-V is an amazing car but it lacks the fit and finish of the M5. Just about ALL the CTS-V owners consider the M5 a pretty big upgrade...

It took a 21 year old in an M3 to beat an 80 year old in a CTS-V around a track. Don't tell me the CTS-V is only a straight line car.

And the rest is Bull crap. None of the models introduced since Lutz came in are 10 years old yet for you to even know that. My CTS was as solid as the day I bought it when I turned it in 4 years later. I'm sure the trim pieces, cup holders, buttons, and switches falling off my ex's Passat were of the highest German quality.

The very idea that BMWs or Jaguars don't age is ludicrous.

[Sal Collaziano]

Actually, I think the Germans will start coming down market to Cadillac at the same time Cadillac resumes moving up.

4-cylinder XTS-TDI anyone?.... it will go up against the 4-cylinder S-class and A8.

However, what if Cadillac's target is no longer the Germans, but most of Lexus?

I think Cadillac lost a lot of customers to Lexus. These days, Lexus builds a better Cadillac than Cadillac does. I think Cadillac worried too much what BMW was doing. They tried building a BMW and failed. Cadillac is not BMW. I think Mercedes would even fail at trying to be BMW. And Mercedes is another brand that I feel builds a car closer to Cadillac than Cadillac does. Lexus and Mercedes are more about luxury than sport. BMW is more about sport than luxury - but if you look at the new 7-Series, they're getting quite luxurious.. I would have no problem with Cadillac's target being Lexus other than that's what GM is trying to make Buick.

Chevy should be economy/sport

Buick should be affordable luxury

Cadillac should be luxury/performance

Sal Collaziano ~ >>"I think the ATS is a great idea - but it's still a move down market."<<

What was the 1-Series ??? What about the upcoming FWD sub-1-series BMW; are those moves upmarket ???

Audi has the big Q7, but after BMW's X5, there's no 'MX5', but an X3 and talk of yet another, cheaper SUV. Are those moves upmarket ???

Years back there was an 8-series- been dead for decades- where's the replacement ??

Flagship M-1 exotic died after '81 - where's the replacement ??

You KNOW the BMW minivan is right around the corner despite what they protest; they HAVE to follow MB's r-wagon...

They gripe and moan incessantly about 'no 3-series competitor', then when one comes, it's 'it's a down market move- how do you feel about that? {here's a Kleenex.}'

The hypocrisy is something else.

Cadillac is moving down market because they're not catering to the market on top. BMW can make a 0-Series for all I care - that won't change anything in my eyes other than simply adding a bunch of customers they didn't have before. It's not like they stopped selling V8 5-Series and 7-Series cars. Cadillac is gaining an ATS - which is great - but they're missing products on top. Mercedes can cater to lower markets all they want - as long as they're still paying attention to the market on top. That's not moving down market. That's simply adding to your portfolio. If Mercedes stopped selling the S-Class in America and started selling something beneath the C-Class, than I'd consider that a move down-market.

Cadillac gains an ATS. Down market but positive

Cadillac loses a V8 STS. Down market. Even when the CTS replaces it, it still won't have a V8. Again, down market.

Cadillac replaces a V8 DTS with a V6 car on a Chevy Impala platform. Down market

Cadillac replaces a V8 RWD SRX with a V6 FWD SRX on a Chevy Equinox platform. Down market.

Is it really difficult to see where Cadillac is going? Down market... Even prices are going down. Is Chevy or Buick the value brand at GM? Or is it Cadillac? As prices get lower, Cadillacs become more common - but is that in Cadillac's best interest? How desirable will Cadillac be as a brand when anyone can afford one? Driving a Cadillac used to MEAN something. What does it mean now? Does it mean you "made it"? No, that's Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar and soon, Hyundai...

[smk4565]

When all is said and done, who the hell cares about the CTS-V? Does anybody buy it? No. How many CTS-Vs does Cadillac sell? It just doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Cadillac needs a V8 that sells like a GS460, a 550i, an XF, a E550, an M56 and so on and so on and so on... The CTS-V is a hard core enthusiast car that you see very far and few between on the road. I can see tons of the aforementioned V8 vehicles before and after I see a new CTS-V. Cadillac needs a mid-size and a full-size luxury sedan with a V8 - just like everybody else. Or they're going to follow down the same stupid road as Acura.

In regards to the other brands who are making 4s and 6s for their vehicles - that's a GREAT idea. Those versions simply compliment the V8s. Cadillac doesn't offer the V8s anymore. They're abandoning that part of the market. You're okay with that?

Where does a current CTS owner go as he moves up in the world and wants a better vehicle? A FWD V6 XTS? No. Same question for the STS owner. Where does HE go? XTS? No. How about the DTS owner? He goes from a V8 FWD vehicle down to a V6 FWD vehicle that sits on the same platform as a Chevy Malibu.. Wow, that sounds exciting. What a move up.

Mercedes and BMW can sell their full-size luxury sedans with hamsters powering the thing - I don't care - as long as they still offer V8s for those who want them.

I agree with you on all that. And Mercedes could probably sell an S-class with no engine at all and still get $80,000 for it.

[Drew Dowdell]

I think Cadillac lost a lot of customers to Lexus. These days, Lexus builds a better Cadillac than Cadillac does. I think Cadillac worried too much what BMW was doing. They tried building a BMW and failed. Cadillac is not BMW. I think Mercedes would even fail at trying to be BMW. And Mercedes is another brand that I feel builds a car closer to Cadillac than Cadillac does. Lexus and Mercedes are more about luxury than sport. BMW is more about sport than luxury - but if you look at the new 7-Series, they're getting quite luxurious.. I would have no problem with Cadillac's target being Lexus other than that's what GM is trying to make Buick.

Chevy should be economy/sport

Buick should be affordable luxury

Cadillac should be luxury/performance

Cadillac is moving down market because they're not catering to the market on top. BMW can make a 0-Series for all I care - that won't change anything in my eyes other than simply adding a bunch of customers they didn't have before. It's not like they stopped selling V8 5-Series and 7-Series cars. Cadillac is gaining an ATS - which is great - but they're missing products on top. Mercedes can cater to lower markets all they want - as long as they're still paying attention to the market on top. That's not moving down market. That's simply adding to your portfolio. If Mercedes stopped selling the S-Class in America and started selling something beneath the C-Class, than I'd consider that a move down-market.

Cadillac gains an ATS. Down market but positive

Cadillac loses a V8 STS. Down market. Even when the CTS replaces it, it still won't have a V8. Again, down market.

Cadillac replaces a V8 DTS with a V6 car on a Chevy Impala platform. Down market

Cadillac replaces a V8 RWD SRX with a V6 FWD SRX on a Chevy Equinox platform. Down market.

Is it really difficult to see where Cadillac is going? Down market... Even prices are going down. Is Chevy or Buick the value brand at GM? Or is it Cadillac? As prices get lower, Cadillacs become more common - but is that in Cadillac's best interest? How desirable will Cadillac be as a brand when anyone can afford one? Driving a Cadillac used to MEAN something. What does it mean now? Does it mean you "made it"? No, that's Lexus, Infiniti, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Jaguar and soon, Hyundai...

And again, Cadillac has already stated there will be another sedan coming out in 2013 above the XTS that is rear wheel drive.

Furthermore, the XTS isn't a V6. It's a V6 Hybrid, same as the S400. Your complaint about the V6 lacking torque compared to a V8 is made up for by the electric drive.

Unless Hyundai comes out with a new luxury brand, buying a Hyundai will STILL mean you bought cheapest in the market to get the good warranty. Hyundai will still be pumping out Elantras by the thousands, so don't try to say that someone sitting in their S-Class will be impressed when you pull up in your Hyundai.

[smk4565]

I agree with Sal, that Lexus builds a better Cadillac than Cadillac, and Cadillac's lineup is looking more like Lexus, minus the LS460 and supercar. It seems that GM wants to make Chevy/Cadillac look like Toyota/Lexus. But what worked for Toyota in the 90s and 2000s, may not work for GM in the 2010s.

[Sal Collaziano]

I think you and I want the same thing - so that's cool.. Unfortunately, Cadillac has only stated that they understand there's a "need" for a full-size RWD luxury sedan. It's not on the books yet. There are no definite plans to make this vehicle. Some top executives want it - some don't..

As of now, the XTS (which some executives have already stated they do not like) is launching with the 3.6 liter direct injected V6. The same V6 currently available in the CTS.

Hyundai's launching their "Genesis" brand in France first. They will VERY likely have the brand here in America for the second generation of the Equus.

An S550 owner will not be impressed by an Equus. Neither will any of the other top-tier luxury brand buyers. However, they will be intrigued in the same way they were about the Lexus LS in 1989.

Hyundai isn't planning on selling a lot of Equus sedans. They've stated the vehicle exists to give people something to strive for and bring people into dealerships for their other products. Cadillac would be wise to do the same.

Some other facts... Cadillac is considered to be a "near" luxury brand by GM executives. The XTS has been called a "near" full-size sedan by Cadillac executives... The ATS is not planned to receive the 3.0 liter twin turbo engine.

And again, Cadillac has already stated there will be another sedan coming out in 2013 above the XTS that is rear wheel drive.

Furthermore, the XTS isn't a V6. It's a V6 Hybrid, same as the S400. Your complaint about the V6 lacking torque compared to a V8 is made up for by the electric drive.

Unless Hyundai comes out with a new luxury brand, buying a Hyundai will STILL mean you bought cheapest in the market to get the good warranty. Hyundai will still be pumping out Elantras by the thousands, so don't try to say that someone sitting in their S-Class will be impressed when you pull up in your Hyundai.

[balthazar]

While Sal makes some (angry) discussion points WRT Cadillac, here's my issue with just about ANY heavy-handed coal-raking of Cadillac : the always-shifting grounds of comparison... which to my mind dips into hypocrisy.

One of the chief examples here is the reference to a Cadillac's given sales. This is unlikely to stem from either research into, nor remembrance of, a time when Cadillac sold more in the U.S. than any other luxury make up thru today (late '70s, circa 375K units).... but is more likely to be the association that Cadillac, as part of General Motors, simply MUST! slather the market with volume, and that volume is the prime measure of 'success'. Cadillac, as a 'brand' of a business, must be profitable- that is the goal. Whether the marque makes -say- $500M on 75K sales or 250K sales is immaterial from a business standpoint. Yet Cadillac is continually held up against random volume numbers.

Case in point: >>"who the hell cares about the CTS-V? Does anybody buy it? No. "<< Of course people buy it: 'no one' means zero sales.

The CTS-V performs the exact same role for Cadillac the V-12 s-class does; 'no one' buys that one either, but it's 'necessary' for image-pumping. Bashers OK with a 4-pot S-class immediately point to the V-12 S-class, yet NEVER is the volume of that car mentioned. It's all about the image.... EXCEPT when it comes to Cadillac- where the CTS-V is a 'failure' because it doesn't sell in X-quantity, the CTS SportWagon is a 'failure' because it doesn't sell in X-quantity..... YYEETT the current SRX is a 'failure' because it doesn't have RWD (AWD doesn't factor here) & a V8. #2 sales in the segment is suddenly completely irrelevant- the vehicle is still a 'failure'.... because it doesn't fit the 'hardware agenda' of an internet poster. CTS-V is the flip of that formula and = 'failure'. That hypocrisy undermines the commenter immediately.

BMW 7-series (starts @ $82K) rides on the same platform as the 5-series (starts @ $45K)- yet no one bats an eye. 82% price tag premium, but because the same brand badge is on it, it's 'OK' and NEVER mentioned. Proposed ESPII XTS rides a modified platform under an ESP LaCrosse, and it's all Kleenexs and hand-wringing. Hypocrisy, IMO.

As a die-hard traditionalist WRT the industry, I am in a strict minority that values the image of a V-8 powered Cadillac. Since 1914, baby!

However, in a consumer pool where 75% of BMW 1-series owners BELIEVE they just bought a FWD BMW (which begs the answer to how many think the 3-series is FWD- HAS to be at least 30% by extrapolation) and 'no one' does their own maintenance (never mind repair work)- only a freakishly-small micro-minority know or care how many cylinders are underhood, as long as the relative power is there. I guarantee you, if a V-6 Car X outperformed a V-8 Car Y and NO BRAND NAMES were mentioned, most posters would dump on the V-8 car for having to 'rely' on extra cylinders to do the same job. I've read exactly that countless times over the years.

Any meaningful analysis is going to have to use the same terms/criteria and avoid breezy unsubstantiated subjectives, or nothing useful will ever come out of the discussion.

[Drew Dowdell]

Bathazar just vents everything I've been try to say, yet so more clearly!

[balthazar]

^ Thank you sir! The volume thing is especially glaring... at least to me.

You can discuss the tangibles (motors, drive wheels, etc) but when you hopelessly intertwine them with the intangibles (image, consumer perception, etc) and try and make 1 a direct cause/effect of the other, your argument falls apart.

[regfootball]

Cadillac CTS v6 perfectly fine in comparison to the popular Infiniti G37.

Most BMW 3's and C-Class only have 6 cylinder.

I have actually seen 3 live CTSv's in the wild now. They are the sex on wheels.

CTSv will still beat the Germans on the track.

Cadillac v6 outperforms the northstar v8. why miss it? CAFE won't let you have a v8 anyways.

THese days there are not a whole bunch of folks who get hung up on the v8 in mainstream lux models.

[Sal Collaziano]

Well, I know who agrees with me and who doesn't.. There's nothing wrong with opposing points of view. And I don't expect to change anyone's mind... I hope Cadillac makes something right for me when I'm ready for my next car - which is probably a year away. I'd love a full-size RWD Cadillac with a smooth, quiet and powerful V8. That's what I want more than anything. If it doesn't exist when I'm ready to buy, I'll buy from somewhere else...

[balthazar]

If all you are personally interested in from Cadillac is a "full-size RWD Cadillac with a smooth, quiet and powerful V8", what was all the rest about the CTS & ATS & SRX about, if not to convince others somehow ?? None of those are full-size.

[FUTURE_OF_GM]

It's pretty easy to see what's going on.

1) CTS is finally becoming a true 5 series competitor, as it should've been all along, (Instead of trying to be 5 series sized and compete with a 3 series)

2) ATS will come in as the 3 series competitor (complete with V8 power in the V-Series version)

3) XTS will serve traditional Cadillac buyers and be the weirdo model (Much like the ES is the 'demanded' weirdo model at Lexus)

4) The Zeta based car will come in and compete directly with the 7-series above the CTS. (coupe and sedan maybe?)

5) And there is also rumor of an even more pricey Zeta (and by Zeta I mean the new large global RWD architecture) based car to compete with RR et al.

I think that would be a very good line up if GM would just execute and shut the hell up already.

The SRX is a no brainer... GM is using one 'silver bullet' to go after as much volume as possible in the luxury ute market. To shut up SRX traditionalists, GM brought in the CTS Wagon (probably AGAINST better judgement given wagon sales)

SWB Escalade will debut on C-3XX (No word yet on Escalade ESV. EXT is as dead as yesterdays sports scores) and continue to sell on it's own merit.

My only question is: Now that Escalade will continue on BOF, how will GM adress the large unibody luxury ute movement? Should Cadillac have yet another (Lambda) model to slot in between SRX and Escalade?

[ZL-1]

If all you are personally interested in from Cadillac is a "full-size RWD Cadillac with a smooth, quiet and powerful V8", what was all the rest about the CTS & ATS & SRX about, if not to convince others somehow ?? None of those are full-size.

It is about consistency in the lineup.

[Sal Collaziano]

If all you are personally interested in from Cadillac is a "full-size RWD Cadillac with a smooth, quiet and powerful V8", what was all the rest about the CTS & ATS & SRX about, if not to convince others somehow ?? None of those are full-size.

Cadillac is my favorite brand. They currently provide no adequate full size luxury option and offer no upgrade path for current owners. I'm concerned...

[regfootball]

they'll probably fix that, its just taking them FOREVER!!!!

isn't the ES Lexus' biggest seller?

Edited November 14, 2010 by regfootball

[balthazar]

^ "Concern" is just not the way it read, and it's not the way it reads on other boards, either... but maybe that's just me.

mercedes has a slow-selling s-class you might like, it's almost 'full-size", starts at circa $90K and will cost you more in depreciation than just about any car you can buy (specifically- the S65 would cost you $150K in 3 years- S550 must be on a similar sliding scale).

I also firmly believe the 'upgrade path' theory WRT a brand's lineup is urban myth. Is the 3-series ABA 30, the 5-series 50 and the 7-series 70 ?? I doubt it.

[smk4565]

Well, I know who agrees with me and who doesn't.. There's nothing wrong with opposing points of view. And I don't expect to change anyone's mind... I hope Cadillac makes something right for me when I'm ready for my next car - which is probably a year away. I'd love a full-size RWD Cadillac with a smooth, quiet and powerful V8. That's what I want more than anything. If it doesn't exist when I'm ready to buy, I'll buy from somewhere else...

Genesis gets a 429 hp V8 and 8-speed next year, and it is rated at 18/26 mpg. And that car is more quiet than any Cadillac or Buick.

[Robert Hall]

Genesis gets a 429 hp V8 and 8-speed next year, and it is rated at 18/26 mpg. And that car is more quiet than any Cadillac or Buick.

Still just a Hyundai, though.

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac is my favorite brand. They currently provide no adequate full size luxury option and offer no upgrade path for current owners. I'm concerned...

Telling Molly McMansion her new SRX is a FAIL because you don't approve of the drivetrain layout (something she'll have no idea what you are talking about since hers is AWD anyway) is a way of showing concern for Cadillac?

The SRX is selling well with new customers that over 50% came from another brand.....

like it for what it is... a profit center for Cadillac.

[Drew Dowdell]

Genesis gets a 429 hp V8 and 8-speed next year, and it is rated at 18/26 mpg. And that car is more quiet than any Cadillac or Buick.

And I can still get a flat panel television with that same brand on it....

I wonder if Hyundai will start to include their high end bidet technology in their cars...... say if I'm driving along and I need a bit of a freshening "down there"

Hyundai Bidet Catalog

[Robert Hall]

That bidet sounds nice...I like the features..I've read elsewhere Hyundai is working on a 10-speed automatic for MY 2016.