Cadillac Vehicles & Engine Lineup (Circa 2015)

[smk4565]

Agreed on being profitable in all markets. Cadillac may never be a big seller in Europe, but 1,000 cars a year isn't going to cut it, at that level they are probably losing money. Cadillac outside of the USA is sort of what Saab is in the USA, and that isn't going to work. I think they need to get to where 50% of their sales are from outside the USA and get to 350-400k annual global sales volume. But everything has to be right, if they make a good ATS, then blow the flagship totally, they lose credibility. Any negatives in their product line or marketing is going to drag down or cancel out their positives.

[hyperv6]

Agreed on being profitable in all markets. Cadillac may never be a big seller in Europe, but 1,000 cars a year isn't going to cut it, at that level they are probably losing money. Cadillac outside of the USA is sort of what Saab is in the USA, and that isn't going to work. I think they need to get to where 50% of their sales are from outside the USA and get to 350-400k annual global sales volume. But everything has to be right, if they make a good ATS, then blow the flagship totally, they lose credibility. Any negatives in their product line or marketing is going to drag down or cancel out their positives.

First off if they return to Europe it will not be with the intent on 1,000 units. The ATS is going to be a key player here as it is more of the kind of car Europe likes, Smaller. But in turn it is not going to be Europes leader in car sales.

As for getting it right. I think GM has proven of late they have been getting out many good solid cars. A couple were home runs and other were vast improvments and up to market standards. Note many of these cars are things that were started before and finished after the Chapter 11. The cars like the ATS I expect will be to a new level. Even then not all are going to be home runs but all will help advance GM intot he future.

There will always be negitives. GM could build the best car man has ever seen and someone will be there to pound it for some reason.

The Flagship car will come. The Omega platform as some call it now I think will reflect the best efforts now that they have money to do it right. No more trying to graft a sun roof odd a older model to save money. No more odd rules to take styling away that would have never made prodution 20 years ago because of sight lines.

I think GM deregulated internally will respond much a the buisness community does when restrictive and costly rules are pulled back. Nothing hold product back more than the lack of money and restrictive coperate rules. Even with Lutz gone I think the things he put in place are still going to move things forward for GM.

While the Omega may have some Zeta in it I expect the changes will be to the point only those in the know like us here will ever pick up on the carry over parts. I don't know alot about this car yet but I get the feeling this car will suprise many of us.

[dwightlooi]

I don't think Cadillac's priority should be to flesh out a big line up that matches the competition or to return to Europe. There isn't enough money or resources to do either of that overnight or in a couple of years. The priority should be to be successful and profitable in every model that they launch. This means focusing on the ATS and focusing on the key markets they have profitability and penetration in -- North America and China. Once you have a solid footing and a solid revenue profit stream there will be the funds and resources to grow -- but not before.

[smk4565]

I don't think Cadillac's priority should be to flesh out a big line up that matches the competition or to return to Europe. There isn't enough money or resources to do either of that overnight or in a couple of years. The priority should be to be successful and profitable in every model that they launch. This means focusing on the ATS and focusing on the key markets they have profitability and penetration in -- North America and China. Once you have a solid footing and a solid revenue profit stream there will be the funds and resources to grow -- but not before.

They don't need a big line up, 3 car lines (with sedans, coupes, wagons, convertible mixed in) and 2 SUV lines all done well is what they need. But they have to have eery model be a home run, so that they can sell them anywhere in the world with minor tweaking for each market. The Germans already have a huge lead in China also. Cadillac sells like 20-30,000 cars a year there, Audi sells 200,000. Cadillac hardly has solid footing in the USA, they are 4th in sales, but Audi, Acura, Lincoln and Infiniti aren't too far behind them. Although 2 of those brands I don't see catching up any time soon. In foreign markets Cadillac has no footing, they need to get in to the emerging places before those countries become super loyal to German brands too.

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac hardly has solid footing in the USA, they are 4th in sales, but Audi, Acura, Lincoln and Infiniti aren't too far behind them. Although 2 of those brands I don't see catching up any time soon. In foreign markets Cadillac has no footing, they need to get in to the emerging places before those countries become super loyal to German brands too.

Audi has been on a tear lately..I'd expect them to be in the top 4 in the US in the next few years...

[Drew Dowdell]

Cadillac hardly has solid footing in the USA, they are 4th in sales, but Audi, Acura, Lincoln and Infiniti aren't too far behind them. Although 2 of those brands I don't see catching up any time soon. In foreign markets Cadillac has no footing, they need to get in to the emerging places before those countries become super loyal to German brands too.

Audi has been on a tear lately..I'd expect them to be in the top 4 in the US in the next few years...

uh, not with those sales rates....

[Robert Hall]

Cadillac hardly has solid footing in the USA, they are 4th in sales, but Audi, Acura, Lincoln and Infiniti aren't too far behind them. Although 2 of those brands I don't see catching up any time soon. In foreign markets Cadillac has no footing, they need to get in to the emerging places before those countries become super loyal to German brands too.

Audi has been on a tear lately..I'd expect them to be in the top 4 in the US in the next few years...

uh, not with those sales rates....

I was under the impression their sales had been rising in the US...

[balthazar]

Much like lexus, audi exists on the back of a few models- the leading ones with any appreciable volume are the a4 (about 35K/yr) and the q5 (about 21K/yr). a5 sells about 14K per year, but "no one" buys the rest of the lineup. #4 is the a6, a pretty 'hot' segment, but audi only moves about 7K/yr there. Isn't there an 'A1' coming?- maybe audi can trade on it's image and whore out their rep for some quick volume for a few years.

[dwightlooi]

Existing on the backs of a few models is not necessarily a bad thing. It sure as hell is better than a dozen and a half models 3/4ths of which don't sell.

[hyperv6]

Cadillac just need to get a few models started like the ATS and the next couple models and make them cars with a global appeal.

Once these cars are out follow thw same path as they have with the Cruze and other models and slowly intro them tuned to each market. In the US market it is not as much a challange. In China it is becoming a growing challange there with the many choices they now have. In Europe the key is to just be profitable and get a solid distribution system in place. Sell in the areas that had strong sales move out from there.

Nearly every new Chevy model is now going Global either under the Chevy name or Holden. Near every new Buick Buick is now going global either under Buick or Opel name. There is no reason to not expect the same with most new Cadillac models. It will go just as the other a model or two and then grow it with each new model.

[balthazar]

Existing on the backs of a few models is not necessarily a bad thing. It sure as hell is better than a dozen and a half models 3/4ths of which don't sell.

I agree, but it points to the real world weight of having models in each & every segment in order to 'compete', when in so many instances --mercedees, BMW, audi (to a lesser extent), for EX-- your statement is the exact scenario.

I personally like having unique, niche models, breaks up the monotony, but many believe every model has to be a volume tour de force.

[Potluck]

Who cares what the europeans think, they'll never buy anything American anyway. The only way they buy Fords is if they are designed and built there.

Focus on China and what China wants, that's where the money will be made.

[smk4565]

Who cares what the europeans think, they'll never buy anything American anyway. The only way they buy Fords is if they are designed and built there.

Focus on China and what China wants, that's where the money will be made.

#1 selling luxury brand in China is Audi (140,000 cars first 6 months of 2011), followed by BMW then Mercedes. Lexus sold 49,000 cars in China in 2010 and 410,000 worldwide. Lexus had half their global volume from the USA last year, because Lexus (like Cadillac) is designed for the North American market. This causes them to struggle in Europe and China (like Cadillac).

Cadillac has sold 14,000 cars in China so far in 2011; Audi is outselling them by 10 to 1 margin. What the Chinese want seems to be similar to what the Europeans want. Volvo even outsells Cadillac in China by 3-2 margin. Cadillac needs diesels, smaller cars (ATS is the start) and a complete top to bottom line up without big gaps or weaknesses or stop gaps.

[Drew Dowdell]

You mean the mostly FWD Audi lineup is selling better than the mostly RWD BMW and Mercedes lineup in China? Shocking.

[Robert Hall]

You mean the mostly FWD Audi lineup is selling better than the mostly RWD BMW and Mercedes lineup in China? Shocking.

I wonder what % of Audi sales in China are AWD...they are mostly AWD in NA..

[Drew Dowdell]

You mean the mostly FWD Audi lineup is selling better than the mostly RWD BMW and Mercedes lineup in China? Shocking.

I wonder what % of Audi sales in China are AWD...they are mostly AWD in NA..

Unless the Chinese are mostly buying loaded models, with the exception of the A8L, all of the Audi sedans come in FWD for the first few trim levels.

[smk4565]

Cheaper and FWD outsells expensive and RWD. In China the A6 (base) is priced the same as a Mercedes C200.

FWD may get them volume, but RWD cars can bring more profit. And I think also as the mainstream front wheel drive cars get better and better, RWD gives a way for a luxury brand to differentiate itself. 10 years ago Cadillacs had 275-300 hp (near the limit for FWD) and Camry/Accord/Lumina type cars had 190ish with the optional V6. But now family sedans have 270 hp and are getting more and more equipment. Rear drive and suspension are ways to set a luxury car apart and get people to spend the extra money.

I however would be okay with 1 FWD Cadillac for a smaller than ATS car. It could be a hatchback or a Mini/A3/B-class competitor. To attract younger and urban area buyers, Cadillac needs such a car, primarily on the international market.

[Potluck]

China wants long wheel base everything. Their desires are certainly not the same as the europeans. The Chinese somehow managed to convince BMW to take the 5-series based on a cut down 7 and lengthen it back to 7 length while keeping the 5 name. Really, an A4L?

[hyperv6]

Who cares what the europeans think, they'll never buy anything American anyway. The only way they buy Fords is if they are designed and built there.

Focus on China and what China wants, that's where the money will be made.

While American may not sell big in some countries other they are very popular. My company sells a lot of part in areas of Europe and the Middle East that you would be suprised how well they love our cars. We have areas where people will send up shipping containers and will have us fill them full just in performance parts alone for American cars.

England. Germany and France may be more nationalisitc but many of the other countries are a little more open to cars built here. Even England is not as nationalistic as they used to be since they really have few true British cars anymore.

If GM builds future Cadillacs with a global vision they will do ok even in lower volumes to start. GM has to give them what they want not just cobble something that they might want.

While the CTS is close GM has never really offered a luxury sports sedan that fits the global idea. The ATS I feel will be the first and the next CTS will be the next. I expect the XTS as a short lived car and only sold here as it has no reason to go anywhere but maybe China and the US markets. I think it is just a finished up project by previous admin. The people in charge today would have never approved it. JUst call it a gut feeling as it just seems out of place with the thinking of the other cars they are working on.

[dwightlooi]

While the CTS is close GM has never really offered a luxury sports sedan that fits the global idea. The ATS I feel will be the first and the next CTS will be the next. I expect the XTS as a short lived car and only sold here as it has no reason to go anywhere but maybe China and the US markets. I think it is just a finished up project by previous admin. The people in charge today would have never approved it. JUst call it a gut feeling as it just seems out of place with the thinking of the other cars they are working on.

All the right bits are in place for the ATS. Power train wise, GM will have a more than competitive 2.0T engine, 3.6 DI V6, DI Smallblock V8 and, if you really want, a 170~190hp 2.0 turbodiesel for our European friends to tap. Platform wise it'll be something smaller and light than the 3900 lbs Zeta. How much lighter might be subjected to debate, but even if its on the porky side at 3600 lbs it won't be a deal killer.

It all comes down to the execution now... and as far as that goes the jury is still out.

[hyperv6]

While the CTS is close GM has never really offered a luxury sports sedan that fits the global idea. The ATS I feel will be the first and the next CTS will be the next. I expect the XTS as a short lived car and only sold here as it has no reason to go anywhere but maybe China and the US markets. I think it is just a finished up project by previous admin. The people in charge today would have never approved it. JUst call it a gut feeling as it just seems out of place with the thinking of the other cars they are working on.

All the right bits are in place for the ATS. Power train wise, GM will have a more than competitive 2.0T engine, 3.6 DI V6, DI Smallblock V8 and, if you really want, a 170~190hp 2.0 turbodiesel for our European friends to tap. Platform wise it'll be something smaller and light than the 3900 lbs Zeta. How much lighter might be subjected to debate, but even if its on the porky side at 3600 lbs it won't be a deal killer.

It all comes down to the execution now... and as far as that goes the jury is still out.

Yes the ATS look like the first real effort that would address the Global market.

If and when they go back to Europe they will need s diesel and I am sure one will find it's way in. The engines you are juggling here are good fodder but I suspect we have yet to see what engine GM will really have. I get the feeling many of the engines you have mapped out may not even be in play and will be updated or replaced with other plants.

The Eco is evolving now, The HV V6 will also see changes. The V8 pushrod is getting some major changes that GM has not even fully outlines and only hinted at.

I also suspect we will see a small DOHC V8 to fill market needs in global markets. You can play with numbers all you like but most buyers expect these engines. Even with the Pushrod engine they really need to market the advantages and give the Cadillac their own tunes and trim. I would love to see the engines dressed in Aluminum covers and even billet parts with stainless trim. At the very least powder coated vs the plastic covers. The owner of a Cadillac should be proud to open the hood, trunk and interior to show of his car and its quality. It was details like this that made it a standard others were judged by.

Even my Fiero came powder coated red covers and intake with Stainless 12 point fasteners. Cadillac should get no less.

[dwightlooi]

While the CTS is close GM has never really offered a luxury sports sedan that fits the global idea. The ATS I feel will be the first and the next CTS will be the next. I expect the XTS as a short lived car and only sold here as it has no reason to go anywhere but maybe China and the US markets. I think it is just a finished up project by previous admin. The people in charge today would have never approved it. JUst call it a gut feeling as it just seems out of place with the thinking of the other cars they are working on.

All the right bits are in place for the ATS. Power train wise, GM will have a more than competitive 2.0T engine, 3.6 DI V6, DI Smallblock V8 and, if you really want, a 170~190hp 2.0 turbodiesel for our European friends to tap. Platform wise it'll be something smaller and light than the 3900 lbs Zeta. How much lighter might be subjected to debate, but even if its on the porky side at 3600 lbs it won't be a deal killer.

It all comes down to the execution now... and as far as that goes the jury is still out.

Yes the ATS look like the first real effort that would address the Global market.

If and when they go back to Europe they will need s diesel and I am sure one will find it's way in. The engines you are juggling here are good fodder but I suspect we have yet to see what engine GM will really have. I get the feeling many of the engines you have mapped out may not even be in play and will be updated or replaced with other plants.

The Eco is evolving now, The HV V6 will also see changes. The V8 pushrod is getting some major changes that GM has not even fully outlines and only hinted at.

I also suspect we will see a small DOHC V8 to fill market needs in global markets. You can play with numbers all you like but most buyers expect these engines. Even with the Pushrod engine they really need to market the advantages and give the Cadillac their own tunes and trim. I would love to see the engines dressed in Aluminum covers and even billet parts with stainless trim. At the very least powder coated vs the plastic covers. The owner of a Cadillac should be proud to open the hood, trunk and interior to show of his car and its quality. It was details like this that made it a standard others were judged by.

Even my Fiero came powder coated red covers and intake with Stainless 12 point fasteners. Cadillac should get no less.

Actually, I do not expect much changes to the 2.0T and the 3.6 V6 between now and the ATS's launch as a 2014 model in 2013. The 2.0T just went through a major revision from the LNF to the LHU. The 3.6 just got revised this year to the LFX.

[hyperv6]

While the CTS is close GM has never really offered a luxury sports sedan that fits the global idea. The ATS I feel will be the first and the next CTS will be the next. I expect the XTS as a short lived car and only sold here as it has no reason to go anywhere but maybe China and the US markets. I think it is just a finished up project by previous admin. The people in charge today would have never approved it. JUst call it a gut feeling as it just seems out of place with the thinking of the other cars they are working on.

All the right bits are in place for the ATS. Power train wise, GM will have a more than competitive 2.0T engine, 3.6 DI V6, DI Smallblock V8 and, if you really want, a 170~190hp 2.0 turbodiesel for our European friends to tap. Platform wise it'll be something smaller and light than the 3900 lbs Zeta. How much lighter might be subjected to debate, but even if its on the porky side at 3600 lbs it won't be a deal killer.

It all comes down to the execution now... and as far as that goes the jury is still out.

Yes the ATS look like the first real effort that would address the Global market.

If and when they go back to Europe they will need s diesel and I am sure one will find it's way in. The engines you are juggling here are good fodder but I suspect we have yet to see what engine GM will really have. I get the feeling many of the engines you have mapped out may not even be in play and will be updated or replaced with other plants.

The Eco is evolving now, The HV V6 will also see changes. The V8 pushrod is getting some major changes that GM has not even fully outlines and only hinted at.

I also suspect we will see a small DOHC V8 to fill market needs in global markets. You can play with numbers all you like but most buyers expect these engines. Even with the Pushrod engine they really need to market the advantages and give the Cadillac their own tunes and trim. I would love to see the engines dressed in Aluminum covers and even billet parts with stainless trim. At the very least powder coated vs the plastic covers. The owner of a Cadillac should be proud to open the hood, trunk and interior to show of his car and its quality. It was details like this that made it a standard others were judged by.

Even my Fiero came powder coated red covers and intake with Stainless 12 point fasteners. Cadillac should get no less.

Actually, I do not expect much changes to the 2.0T and the 3.6 V6 between now and the ATS's launch as a 2014 model in 2013. The 2.0T just went through a major revision from the LNF to the LHU. The 3.6 just got revised this year to the LFX.

You may be right. But engines are one area GM seems to be willing to make greater changed and offer more tunes than any other between markets. Just look how much the Ecotec has changed and varied over the years. I think GM is far from done with the engines.

I see them tayloring these engine per model line and market with wider changed. I also see more moves to make them lighter like the new V6.

[dwightlooi]

You may be right. But engines are one area GM seems to be willing to make greater changed and offer more tunes than any other between markets. Just look how much the Ecotec has changed and varied over the years. I think GM is far from done with the engines.

I see them tayloring these engine per model line and market with wider changed. I also see more moves to make them lighter like the new V6.

I don't think there is any major architectural changes coming in the next 5 years for GM's Direct Injected DOHC I4 and V6 engines. We may get different tunes of the current lineup -- different tunes that are either intentional or incidental to the installation of these engine into various new models -- but that's about it. I don't see new bore centers, changing the bore x stroke dimensions, switching from DOHC to SOHC, adding a new VVL valvetrain or making HCCI a reality.

The recent changes to the 4-cylinder -- LNF to LHU -- for instance is really a manufacturability change. GM went from a lost foam casting to a sand casting for the block. The changes to the V6 -- LLT to LFX -- while it improves performance by about 15~19 hp and supposedly enhances NVH, the main reason for the changes is also manufacturability. GM went from a conventional head with an exhaust header to an integrated exhaust collector which then eliminate the need for an exhaust header altogether.

[Drew Dowdell]

Isn't the 2.5 a very significant change in design despite just a small change in displacement?

[dado]

I also suspect we will see a small DOHC V8 to fill market needs in global markets. You can play with numbers all you like but most buyers expect these engines. Even with the Pushrod engine they really need to market the advantages and give the Cadillac their own tunes and trim. I would love to see the engines dressed in Aluminum covers and even billet parts with stainless trim. At the very least powder coated vs the plastic covers. The owner of a Cadillac should be proud to open the hood, trunk and interior to show of his car and its quality. It was details like this that made it a standard others were judged by.

Even my Fiero came powder coated red covers and intake with Stainless 12 point fasteners. Cadillac should get no less.

I would love to see new DOHC v8 (gasoline in case diesel 4.5 l v8 is still on the table) but i doubt GM will offer DOHC v8 anytime soon. Maybe in 5-6 years if they decided to build Cadillac flagship on omega platform but i doubt even then.

[dwightlooi]

Isn't the 2.5 a very significant change in design despite just a small change in displacement?

Not really, it's still a 96mm bore center Ecotec block with DOHC, hydraulic VVT, roller followers, hydraulic lash adjusters and Direct injection. The biggest change comes from an increase in stroke from 98mm to 101mm. This affords it 190hp and 180 lb-ft, an increase of 8 hp and 8 lb-ft over the current Direct Injection 2.4 (LAF).

[dwightlooi]

I would love to see new DOHC v8 (gasoline in case diesel 4.5 l v8 is still on the table) but i doubt GM will offer DOHC v8 anytime soon. Maybe in 5-6 years if they decided to build Cadillac flagship on omega platform but i doubt even then.

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this.

I believe that GM needs a stellar 3.0~3.6 liter class DOHC V6 and DOHC I4. For the V8 realm, however, pushrod engines provide more power, more torque and lower fuel consumption at a lower cost for any given external dimension or engine weight. This makes it technically the superior design choice. A Pushrod arrangement also makes the cars it powers more differentiated, more uniquely American, in a market place crowded with DOHC V8s.

The downside is that it will sport a larger displacement, and that does not endear it to various racing class rules or displacement tax brackets. This downside is not, however, particularly relevant for a V8 engine given that buyers who elect to buy a V8 model probably does not care about the displacement tax as much as the performance of the vehicle. Otherwise, they can and would have picked the V6 variant of the car instead.

[dado]

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this.

I believe that GM needs a stellar 3.0~3.6 liter class DOHC V6 and DOHC I4. For the V8 realm, however, pushrod engines provide more power, more torque and lower fuel consumption at a lower cost for any given external dimension or engine weight. This makes it technically the superior design choice. A Pushrod arrangement also makes the cars it powers more differentiated, more uniquely American, in a market place crowded with DOHC V8s.

The downside is that it will sport a larger displacement, and that does not endear it to various racing class rules or displacement tax brackets. This downside is not, however, particularly relevant for a V8 engine given that buyers who elect to buy a V8 model probably does not care about the displacement tax as much as the performance of the vehicle. Otherwise, they can and would have picked the V6 variant of the car instead.

I don't mean that GM should drop CIB design. It would be excellent engine for Corvette, Camaro, pickup trucks etc. If we look only from techical viewpoint it would be good for Cadillac too.

You said people who buys v8 cars don't care about displacement tax etc. I agree. But i know for certain they also don't care about engine size (dimensions of the engine), weight of the engine, or cost of the engine. Most of the buyers thinks the more complicated the engine is the better it is. And DOHC is more "complicated" engine than CIB (in my line of work the simpler the better but that is me).

Now what do you think-how many people know how much LS7 weight? Or what outside dimension of that engines are. Hell here people still think Corvette with that kind of engine consume at least 30 liters of gasoline per 100 km. Yesterday i had a car talk with guy from a work (he is engineer too). He started talking about american big displacement, low hp bla bla...usual stuff. Now i showed him LS7 engine (he didn't believe some stuff i told him) on the internet...and you know what. He still thinks 4.0 l v8 from BMW is better. Why... because is has DOHc which every journalist thinks it is must for an uber engine, it has high Hp/l ratio and it can spin to over 8000 rpm. Now i didn't have time to ask him (or the will cause i saw he refuses to understand some stuff even if i had evidences) what he thinks about 6.3 l v8 from AMG.

People wants DOHC engines here in Europe (and i see in USA too). Now is it for a right reasons ..i don't know.

[hyperv6]

Most of GM's engines are going to see weight loss as a prime change. Also we will see improvments in drive quality with more refine, power and more MPG. Sizes will continue to shrink no matter how some here disagree the trend is market wide. Few cars will offer a V8 and many pickups will soon be seen with Turbo V6 engines. I expect many turbo's to be available on most V6 and 4 cylinder engines. They will become very common on just regular non performance applications.

As for the DOHC V8 I expect to see one at some point. Do they have to have one? On paper no but in the world of marketing and public opinion if they want to compete on a global scale with REW sports sedans, coupes and sports cars they will need one in some markets.

DOHC is like the guy who said they did not need to put a better interior in the Vette as he was fine with it. It was pointed out while he was fine with it many others were not. As he was told the goal is to sell not just to Vette fans but to try to win over converts from other brands. You have to give them what they want not just what they need. I too am a believer in keeping both engines let the people choose and sell more cars. That's what it's all abou isn't it?

Globalization of GM will effect the Vette as I suspect the new car will be much more smaller appearing and may lose a litte in size by the C8. Size matters in many markets. They don't have to sell the Vette in Europe but they should as like ever other market they can fit it in too. Chevy just set a record of first half sales this year with their global presents. All these countries ad up to a lot of cars and this first half they sold more than they ever have in a half year in 100 years. Not if they can turn these sales into profits. Hmmm!

Now Volume is fine for Chevy and Buick but for Cadillac it should be quality and profit at much more exclusive volumes outside the ATS. The ATS needs to be the car to sell the world that the more expensive Cadillacs are worth the price. People will take a chance on a $40K car but not a $80K car.

Edited July 20, 2011 by hyperv6

[dwightlooi]

Most of GM's engines are going to see weight loss as a prime change. Also we will see improvments in drive quality with more refine, power and more MPG. Sizes will continue to shrink no matter how some here disagree the trend is market wide. Few cars will offer a V8 and many pickups will soon be seen with Turbo V6 engines. I expect many turbo's to be available on most V6 and 4 cylinder engines. They will become very common on just regular non performance applications.

As for the DOHC V8 I expect to see one at some point. Do they have to have one? On paper no but in the world of marketing and public opinion if they want to compete on a global scale with REW sports sedans, coupes and sports cars they will need one in some markets.

DOHC is like the guy who said they did not need to put a better interior in the Vette as he was fine with it. It was pointed out while he was fine with it many others were not. As he was told the goal is to sell not just to Vette fans but to try to win over converts from other brands. You have to give them what they want not just what they need. I too am a believer in keeping both engines let the people choose and sell more cars. That's what it's all abou isn't it?

Globalization of GM will effect the Vette as I suspect the new car will be much more smaller appearing and may lose a litte in size by the C8. Size matters in many markets. They don't have to sell the Vette in Europe but they should as like ever other market they can fit it in too. Chevy just set a record of first half sales this year with their global presents. All these countries ad up to a lot of cars and this first half they sold more than they ever have in a half year in 100 years. Not if they can turn these sales into profits. Hmmm!

Now Volume is fine for Chevy and Buick but for Cadillac it should be quality and profit at much more exclusive volumes outside the ATS. The ATS needs to be the car to sell the world that the more expensive Cadillacs are worth the price. People will take a chance on a $40K car but not a $80K car.

Well, following flawed popular opinion in defiance of the technical facts and merit is not a good strategy. A good example is the 1.4T in the Cruze. Losing a third of the displacement and adding a turbocharger resulted in an engine that is both expensive and worse in fuel economy than competing 1.8 and 2.0 liter NA engines in the same or slightly superior power class.

Wanting DOHC for the sake of the alphabet soup is more like saying you want the BMW grade interior but not an even better interior, because it is a grade BMW interior and people expect it.

I don't think most consumers care about DOHC at all. They do care about performance, refinement and fuel economy. Show that you can do all that better than the competition and your choice of valvetrain layout won't matter. In fact, do that and sustain that for a generation or two and you'll have gear heads demanding, compact, lightweight and efficient pushrod engines.

Edited July 21, 2011 by dwightlooi

[smk4565]

I still believe pushrod engines are too loud, the Cadillac flagship is going to need an interior sound level of about 60 dBA at 70 mph. GM's most quiet car now is around 67 dBA, and their pushrod V8 cars are over 70 dBA.

The 2012 Impala is another example, they switch to DOHC and they gain 91 horsepower and fuel economy goes up 1 mpg. The only reason GM still has a pushrod V8 instead of a DOHC V8 is because they don't have the money to make an all new engine.

CO2 emitted is another consideration for overseas markets. For example a CTS-V gives off 13.3 tons of CO2 per year vs 11.0 tons for an S63 AMG. Even a V12 BMW 7-series has a smaller carbon footprint than the CTS-V. Which makes me think a V12 Cadillac sedan should be possible, because the the Escalade's fuel economy and carbon dioxide emissions are on par with the V12 sedans, as is the CTS-V.

[Drew Dowdell]

I still believe pushrod engines are too loud, the Cadillac flagship is going to need an interior sound level of about 60 dBA at 70 mph. GM's most quiet car now is around 67 dBA, and their pushrod V8 cars are over 70 dBA.

And you are still incorrect.

Pushrod or DOHC has NOTHING to do with the loudness. GM's pushrod V8s are too loud? It's the CTS-V, Camaro SS and Corvette for crying... uhm... out loud! The market for those cars DEMANDS them to be loud.

The LT-1 in the Fleetwood is quiet as a whisper. Same with the hemi in the non-SRT 300C. The DOHC V8 that is so quiet in the Lexus LS460 is also the loud DOHC V8 used in the IS-LNF whatever....

GM has been making V8s so quiet they can sneak up behind you since the late 40s....and they were ALL pushrods.

[Drew Dowdell]

I still believe pushrod engines are too loud, the Cadillac flagship is going to need an interior sound level of about 60 dBA at 70 mph. GM's most quiet car now is around 67 dBA, and their pushrod V8 cars are over 70 dBA.

The 2012 Impala is another example, they switch to DOHC and they gain 91 horsepower and fuel economy goes up 1 mpg. The only reason GM still has a pushrod V8 instead of a DOHC V8 is because they don't have the money to make an all new engine.

Uh, actually they lost 3 HP switching from a pushrod V8 with more torque to a DOHC V6 with less.

The fuel economy gain is entirely from the 4-speed to 6-speed switch. The 3.9 and 3.4 with a 6-speed would do even better.

[balthazar]

I still believe pushrod engines are too loud, the Cadillac flagship is going to need an interior sound level of about 60 dBA at 70 mph. GM's most quiet car now is around 67 dBA, and their pushrod V8 cars are over 70 dBA.

C&D test of the '11 BMW 528 returned 71 db at "true 70", 68 at '70 cruise' w/ DOHC.

"60" is a lofty goal- automakers are only going to achieve that with more & more sound deadening (= more weight).

[Lamar]

C&D test of the '11 BMW 528 returned 71 db at "true 70", 68 at '70 cruise' w/ DOHC.

"60" is a lofty goal- automakers are only going to achieve that with more & more sound deadening (= more weight).

Closest I've seen is Bentley Mulsanne (60.1 dB... and pushrod!).

'11 Chrysler 300 V6 is 61.5 dB, but like you said, the sound deadening (for that matter, in the Mulsanne too) is the cause, not the valvetrain.

Wait... a Chrysler is that much quieter than a BMW?

[hyperv6]

Most of GM's engines are going to see weight loss as a prime change. Also we will see improvments in drive quality with more refine, power and more MPG. Sizes will continue to shrink no matter how some here disagree the trend is market wide. Few cars will offer a V8 and many pickups will soon be seen with Turbo V6 engines. I expect many turbo's to be available on most V6 and 4 cylinder engines. They will become very common on just regular non performance applications.

As for the DOHC V8 I expect to see one at some point. Do they have to have one? On paper no but in the world of marketing and public opinion if they want to compete on a global scale with REW sports sedans, coupes and sports cars they will need one in some markets.

DOHC is like the guy who said they did not need to put a better interior in the Vette as he was fine with it. It was pointed out while he was fine with it many others were not. As he was told the goal is to sell not just to Vette fans but to try to win over converts from other brands. You have to give them what they want not just what they need. I too am a believer in keeping both engines let the people choose and sell more cars. That's what it's all abou isn't it?

Globalization of GM will effect the Vette as I suspect the new car will be much more smaller appearing and may lose a litte in size by the C8. Size matters in many markets. They don't have to sell the Vette in Europe but they should as like ever other market they can fit it in too. Chevy just set a record of first half sales this year with their global presents. All these countries ad up to a lot of cars and this first half they sold more than they ever have in a half year in 100 years. Not if they can turn these sales into profits. Hmmm!

Now Volume is fine for Chevy and Buick but for Cadillac it should be quality and profit at much more exclusive volumes outside the ATS. The ATS needs to be the car to sell the world that the more expensive Cadillacs are worth the price. People will take a chance on a $40K car but not a $80K car.

Well, following flawed popular opinion in defiance of the technical facts and merit is not a good strategy. A good example is the 1.4T in the Cruze. Losing a third of the displacement and adding a turbocharger resulted in an engine that is both expensive and worse in fuel economy than competing 1.8 and 2.0 liter NA engines in the same or slightly superior power class.

Wanting DOHC for the sake of the alphabet soup is more like saying you want the BMW grade interior but not an even better interior, because it is a grade BMW interior and people expect it.

I don't think most consumers care about DOHC at all. They do care about performance, refinement and fuel economy. Show that you can do all that better than the competition and your choice of valvetrain layout won't matter. In fact, do that and sustain that for a generation or two and you'll have gear heads demanding, compact, lightweight and efficient pushrod engines.

Flaw popular opinion of the public is also known as giving the customer what he wants. The public does not have to be product smart but a company has to give them what they want or expect. You think in many ways like old GM. You may be right in your numbers but if people want something else you will lose the sale every time.

I think you really underestimate the public.

FYI: I work with the gearheads everyday for the last 17 years. The market is not all pushrods anymore and is less and less everyday. I have seen it change first hand.

Without any kind of marketing or vast brainwashing GM will be the last pushrods standing soon and they will pay the price for it in the marketing aspet of it. Hell they treat them like a damn seceret as it is. Just look at the latest Z06 ads. I fear the next pushrod V8 will be the last. If will have a good run but I do not see it moving to a next Gen. Marketing for it does not exist and there is less and less demand for it.

DOHC is like the FWD has more traction debate. We all here know it is not true as simple physic point this out. But the marketing of FWD in the 80's sold it to the public and it is ingrained in them to the point many fear RWD as they think they can not get around in the snow. Yet we did fine for nearly 80 years without it.

The general public is not car savy and believe what they are told true or not. Today most know little about DOHC but they have been taught it is better for performance, refinement and fuel economy and since nearly all MFG and all engine today have it, it has to be good.

Sorry marketing wins 90% of the minds and hearts of the unwashed car buying public no matter what numbers you post.

To bring back the pushrod would take a great maketing campain and it would be an uphill battle the entire way unless other MFG join in.

People need pushrods but they want DOHC. It is that simple they don't have to understand it they just believe the last 30 years of marketing that they have been hit with about it.

Even with many failed cam belts etc you thing some would think different after bending every valve in some engines.

[SAmadei]

GM has been making V8s so quiet they can sneak up behind you since the late 40s....and they were ALL pushrods.

Agreed. In fact the only engines I drive that are noisy as hell... The Sunfire (2.4 Twin Cam) and Corolla... both OHC. And both sound worse than diesels.

[hyperv6]

Most enigines today are around the same noise levels. The real issues effecting noise are insulation in the car and the intake on the car. Most have little to nothing to do with the valve placment either way. Smoothness is all in the tuning and how the crank is layed out and is the internal balancing system.

Most noise today on most modern engines are the high pressure pump for DI.

I just love the guye with Cadillac SUV's that by a K&N intake system then complain about the intake noise. They have no clue the intake noise supression is the restirction that K&N takes out to increase air flow. On the other hand the Camaro and Mustang guys love the intake sound increase.

[smk4565]

I still believe pushrod engines are too loud, the Cadillac flagship is going to need an interior sound level of about 60 dBA at 70 mph. GM's most quiet car now is around 67 dBA, and their pushrod V8 cars are over 70 dBA.

C&D test of the '11 BMW 528 returned 71 db at "true 70", 68 at '70 cruise' w/ DOHC.

"60" is a lofty goal- automakers are only going to achieve that with more & more sound deadening (= more weight).

The 3-series I've seen at 66-68 dBA, but the big Cadillac needs to benchmark the most quiet cars. The Hyundai Genesis and Lexus LS460 are at 63 dBA, and the Rolls Royce Phantom is 59 at cruise. But if the Genesis can get 63 dBA, a $100,000 Cadillac should be 60-62.

[balthazar]

B-but "no one" buys the genesis or LS, BMW sells 98.7 millions cars and are the bestest... and they are at 70-71 db with the mid-sized 5-series.

Clearly, the sales charts show that buyers in this segment (that is: lexus, BMW, merse) like a bit more noise in their cabins...

BTW: C&D CTS 3.6 sedan: 68 at '70 cruise'. 745 is only 65 at 70 cruise- why isn't it at 60 for the price it is... or better yet: 47 ??

[dwightlooi]

Flaw popular opinion of the public is also known as giving the customer what he wants. The public does not have to be product smart but a company has to give them what they want or expect. You think in many ways like old GM. You may be right in your numbers but if people want something else you will lose the sale every time.

I think you really underestimate the public.

FYI: I work with the gearheads everyday for the last 17 years. The market is not all pushrods anymore and is less and less everyday. I have seen it change first hand.

Without any kind of marketing or vast brainwashing GM will be the last pushrods standing soon and they will pay the price for it in the marketing aspet of it. Hell they treat them like a damn seceret as it is. Just look at the latest Z06 ads. I fear the next pushrod V8 will be the last. If will have a good run but I do not see it moving to a next Gen. Marketing for it does not exist and there is less and less demand for it.

DOHC is like the FWD has more traction debate. We all here know it is not true as simple physic point this out. But the marketing of FWD in the 80's sold it to the public and it is ingrained in them to the point many fear RWD as they think they can not get around in the snow. Yet we did fine for nearly 80 years without it.

The general public is not car savy and believe what they are told true or not. Today most know little about DOHC but they have been taught it is better for performance, refinement and fuel economy and since nearly all MFG and all engine today have it, it has to be good.

Sorry marketing wins 90% of the minds and hearts of the unwashed car buying public no matter what numbers you post.

To bring back the pushrod would take a great maketing campain and it would be an uphill battle the entire way unless other MFG join in.

People need pushrods but they want DOHC. It is that simple they don't have to understand it they just believe the last 30 years of marketing that they have been hit with about it.

Even with many failed cam belts etc you thing some would think different after bending every valve in some engines.

Actually, there is a big difference between the FWD-RWD debate and the IBC-DOHC debate. FWD is absolutely, positively, lighter and more efficient. You throw away the drive shaft and rear axle saving about 50~100 lbs in mass. You decrease drive train loss from about 15% to about 10% by eliminating the friction from all the eliminated components. The debate has been about whether the way FWD changes the handling of the vehicle is worth the benefits.

DOHC is not lighter, smaller or more efficient than Pushrods. It creates a bulkier, heavier engine with higher frictional losses. What it does is allow for more horsepower at higher RPMs in an engine of a given displacement. Apart from that, it is an inferior design for a Vee-type engine. Inferior because heavier, larger, higher fuel consumption and less power is inferior. An example is...

• BMW S65 4.0 DOHC V8 -- 202 kg engine weight -- 414 hp / 295 lb-ft @ 14/20 mpg -- 3700 lbs M3 w/6-speed manual
  
• GM LS3 6.2 Pushrod V8 -- 183 kg engine weight -- 426 hp / 420 lb-ft @ 16/24 mpg -- 3860 lbs Camaro SS w/6-speed manual
  

You don't have to try to sell pushrods. All you have to do is sell on the superiority of the vehicle and the valvetrain becomes irrelevant. If you have an ATS-V that has 470hp, 440 lb-ft and 25mpg highway. You won't have to "try" to convince anyone that the Pushrod engine is superior. And, these are extremely conservative numbers -- they assumes that the new Gen V Small block with Direct Injection, VVT and AFM will be no more than 7.8% more powerful and 4% better in fuel economy than the current LS3 V8.

Global Warming and carbon footprint being important is complete and utter rubbish. But, let's say you care about that... 25mpg is 25mpg. 25mpg = lower "Carbon Footprint" than 23 mpg, period. Carbon footprint is not dependent on the displacement of the engine or its valvetrain configuration. It is dependent only on the amount of gasoline you need to burn to go a given distance.

[hyperv6]

I can tell you never had any real marketing in school or did any through work. You take to much for granted. The public as a whole are stupid. They believe only what you want them to believe and that is where marketing comes in. If you polish a turd enough and and market it right you can sell it to 75% of the people out there. While I agree with most but not all of you engineering ideas the fact is you still have to sell it as today few products sell themselves.

The bottom line is you can post all the numbers you like and be right on most of them but the public precieves things much different than you and some other here. This line of though is part of what got GM in trouble. They gave people what they determind to be what they needed and people went elsewhere to buy what they wanted or thoght they needed.

Numbers mean little to the public but good marketing sells the product and technology.

Now see you example of FWD vs RWD is given at face value and is accurate. But people do not care about saving weight and adding space to a small car and the MFG understood this. So they marketed the cars as getting better traction in snow and sporty handling. You and I know these are false claims. While they were marketed with claims all the weight was over the front wheels [which is true till you step on the gas] the old rule of for ever action there is a equal and opposite reaction. In other words the weight transfers to the rear when you step on the gas.

Now marketing has convinced many today they can no go into the world of snow without FWD and refuse to buy a RWD for fear of being stranded.

If GM wants to change the image of the old pushrod they need to market it or get out of it. They are trying to hide it now and it wins few converts while everyone else is singing a different tune.

As for the gear heads. I just had a guy today that has waited for 4 cams for his Shelby. $14000 worth of cams and he still has not gotten them yet after 2 months. He has no regrette as I asked him if he missed his old 5.0. His reply was no as he see's his new engine as much more advanced and modern. This is what I see more and more of. I am ok with it as my company just makes more money sellig more cam parts than ever.

As for the Global warming deal no need to bring it up to me as we are on the same team here.

[Drew Dowdell]

hyper - No one today knows what DOHC is because it hasn't been actively marketed in 15 years.

[Lamar]

Thing is, Hyper, GM's not hiding anything about the LS engines.

There just aren't many cars right now in which they can use it. Camaro, Corvette, CTS-V... call me crazy, but I don't think they could or would stuff an LS3 into a LaCrosse. (Now if they revived the LS4... )

You can say that they're not winning many converts, but as I mentioned, the only LS engines in cars right now are in semi-niche to exotic vehicles. There's no appreciable volume to be expected there.

[Robert Hall]

Thing is, Hyper, GM's not hiding anything about the LS engines.

There just aren't many cars right now in which they can use it. Camaro, Corvette, CTS-V... call me crazy, but I don't think they could or would stuff an LS3 into a LaCrosse. (Now if they revived the LS4... )

You can say that they're not winning many converts, but as I mentioned, the only LS engines in cars right now are in semi-niche to exotic vehicles. There's no appreciable volume to be expected there.

It's the trucks and SUVs where they have the LS volume...

[Lamar]

Thing is, Hyper, GM's not hiding anything about the LS engines.

There just aren't many cars right now in which they can use it. Camaro, Corvette, CTS-V... call me crazy, but I don't think they could or would stuff an LS3 into a LaCrosse. (Now if they revived the LS4... )

You can say that they're not winning many converts, but as I mentioned, the only LS engines in cars right now are in semi-niche to exotic vehicles. There's no appreciable volume to be expected there.

It's the trucks and SUVs where they have the LS volume...

Well, yeah. But as far as the engines in trucks, all that matters is capability. Valvetrain doesn't matter. The same should hold true for the passenger cars an LS can be found in, be it niche (currently) or volume (future most likely). And I agree with Dwight on this. Let the performance speak for itself, which is what car buyers look at anyway.

Sorta like how the masses probably don't care whether their computer has a Pentium or a Celeron, as long as they can update their Facebook without the little hourglass thingy spinning for a long time.

[dwightlooi]

I can tell you never had any real marketing in school or did any through work. You take to much for granted. The public as a whole are stupid. They believe only what you want them to believe and that is where marketing comes in. If you polish a turd enough and and market it right you can sell it to 75% of the people out there. While I agree with most but not all of you engineering ideas the fact is you still have to sell it as today few products sell themselves.

The bottom line is you can post all the numbers you like and be right on most of them but the public precieves things much different than you and some other here. This line of though is part of what got GM in trouble. They gave people what they determind to be what they needed and people went elsewhere to buy what they wanted or thoght they needed.

Numbers mean little to the public but good marketing sells the product and technology.

Now see you example of FWD vs RWD is given at face value and is accurate. But people do not care about saving weight and adding space to a small car and the MFG understood this. So they marketed the cars as getting better traction in snow and sporty handling. You and I know these are false claims. While they were marketed with claims all the weight was over the front wheels [which is true till you step on the gas] the old rule of for ever action there is a equal and opposite reaction. In other words the weight transfers to the rear when you step on the gas.

Now marketing has convinced many today they can no go into the world of snow without FWD and refuse to buy a RWD for fear of being stranded.

If GM wants to change the image of the old pushrod they need to market it or get out of it. They are trying to hide it now and it wins few converts while everyone else is singing a different tune.

As for the gear heads. I just had a guy today that has waited for 4 cams for his Shelby. $14000 worth of cams and he still has not gotten them yet after 2 months. He has no regrette as I asked him if he missed his old 5.0. His reply was no as he see's his new engine as much more advanced and modern. This is what I see more and more of. I am ok with it as my company just makes more money sellig more cam parts than ever.

As for the Global warming deal no need to bring it up to me as we are on the same team here.

Here is the problem with your argument...

I'll wager that 95% or more of the general public do not know what DOHC is. Of the remaining 5%, some of them will be smart enough to know technical merit when they see it, some won't. But whatever the split is within that 5% it is irrelevant from a sales and marketing standpoint.

In the end the car will sell based on looks, interior quality, refinement, performance, fuel economy and value. It wouldn't sell on the alphabet soup on the engine cover or the lack thereof.

Edited July 22, 2011 by dwightlooi

[smk4565]

DOHC is not lighter, smaller or more efficient than Pushrods. It creates a bulkier, heavier engine with higher frictional losses. What it does is allow for more horsepower at higher RPMs in an engine of a given displacement. Apart from that, it is an inferior design for a Vee-type engine. Inferior because heavier, larger, higher fuel consumption and less power is inferior. An example is...

Isn't an LS3 (and LS2) V8 about 450 lbs? The new 5.5 liter AMG engine (non turbo for SLK) weighs 412 lbs and makes 415 hp, pretty close to the 400-424 the LS3 makes. So it isn't any lighter or more powerful. And the AMG M157 bi-turbo V8 is 450 lbs. Same weight as the LS3, far more power. The LSA is 467 lbs, so heavier, less torque, less fuel economy than the AMG M157.

The McLaren 3.8 V8 makes 592 hp and weighs 439 lbs. Again lighter than the LS-series engines and more powerful than all but the LS9, which is a near 500 lb engine. The more power from less engine weight is a flawed argument.

I still don't understand how a pushrod V8 is better than a DOHC V8, but a pushrod 4, 6, or 12 cylinder is not better than a DOHC. And if pushrods were so superior, why don't any of the wealthy car companies that can have any engine they want invest in one? Only the 2 bankrupt car companies still make them, plus Bentley who is using an engine from the 1960s out of some traditionalist appeal to their old school buyers.

[balthazar]

As dwight posted above, the LS3 is 183 kg, or 403 lbs, so it IS lighter than the 5.5 mercedees. And it makes 11 more hp, so it IS more powerful. So it's NOT a "flawed argument".

More to the point, why doesn't the merse engine make way MORE power than the LS3??