I knew it! :angry:

[ocnblu]

http://jalopnik.com/the-feds-killed-pontiac-bob-lutz-says-1452735716?utm_campaign=socialflow_jalopnik_facebook&utm_source=jalopnik_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

[David]

Interesting, While I think Pontiac had plenty of potential, it was probably best to shrink GM down to have more focus on the brands they do have now.

[FAPTurbo]

This is the best news I've read all week!

BRB FAPPING!

[Robert Hall]

Bankruptcy requires hard choices regardless of what bank/funding sources are involved. Such it is. Pontiac, Saturn and HUMMER were NA only brands w/ limited volume.

[ocnblu]

This is the best news I've read all week!

BRB FAPPING!

Why is Giuseppe drilling Pinocchio in the ass in your avatar?

[Intrepidation]

OMFG T3H GOV'MENT!!~? WHO WIL B RIBBED 4 HIS N HER PLEASURE NOA?!@1 CWESIRFTAOSORFGDFKNB

[ocnblu]

You do know cladding had been banished before all this murder and mayhem, right?

[David]

OMFG T3H GOV'MENT!!~? WHO WIL B RIBBED 4 HIS N HER PLEASURE NOA?!@1 CWESIRFTAOSORFGDFKNB

I thought in todays day of technology that we could spell clear and concise sentences. This makes no sense or you were drunk when you tried to type your response.

[aurora97]

Once the Gov't unloads the last of their shares of GM, wouldn't that give the opportunity to bring Pontiac back?

[Drew Dowdell]

Banks get to set the terms of the loans. If GM didn't like it, they could have gone elsewhere or just folded completely.

[FAPTurbo]

If there was such a real demand for Pontiac from these so-called 'enthusiasts,' then what's stopping GM from badging a Chevy as a Pontiac?

Or are these the same people who said they'd buy an RWD Pontiac, only to not buy the G8, leave it sitting in the lots and force to GM take a loss on it?

[Intrepidation]

But the Feds said "yeah, let's just, how much money have you made on pontiac in the last 10 years?" and the answer was "nothing."

And that's why is was killed.

[Drew Dowdell]

now... I do think that GM has the strength again to bring back Pontiac as a true sports car brand.... but the moment they announce an Epsilon platform car, forget it, fold it, go home.

[David]

Pontiac could be a Niche player as a special RWD Limited Production Car for GMC/Buick Dealerships. That would allow them to build a special 10-15K collectors car and make profit on it as long as it was done right.

Limited Production Run of a GTO Goat with the Vertical dual Headlights, opening and closing covers like the one on the 65 Buick Riviera in Road House. Awesome movie. Awesome car he drove.

[Z-06]

Pontiac - Poor People's Porsche.

[Intrepidation]

Pontiac - Poor People's Porsche.

[Robert Hall]

Pontiac - Poor People's Porsche.

BMW, at least that was what the GTO and G8 aspired to be. Which were the best cars the brand had had in a looooong time, after years of ugly tarted up FWD models and the hideous plasticky 4th gen Firebird.

Edited October 28, 2013 by Cubical-aka-Moltar

[Z-06]

Pontiac - Poor People's Porsche.

What is your point?

[ocnblu]

There can be no point attached to that. It is ridiculous.

[FAPTurbo]

I think he's pointing out that Avis is still lamenting the loss of its best supplier.

[Intrepidation]

I'm sure bringing up the death of Pontiac Hertz its loyal fans. I mean GM had built quite an Enterprise with the brand. However, with the National Economy tanking and the company being forced to balance its Budget, sacrifices had to me made, especially on brands that didn't make any money. But hey, we'll always remember the Alamo and maybe you'll find a leftover at Avis to relive the glory days of EXCITMENT!!!!!!

[ocnblu]

One word: Dodge. Dodge, for Chrissakes...

[Z-06]

I think he's pointing out that Avis is still lamenting the loss of its best supplier.

So how is his point different than the point Ocnblu makes, since both of them look into the past?

One beats the subject about a dead lion in one era and other one about a lion that became a dead donkey in a different era. The fact is both are dead and neither points are constructive.

now... I do think that GM has the strength again to bring back Pontiac as a true sports car brand.... but the moment they announce an Epsilon platform car, forget it, fold it, go home.

To be clear, that is what I was responding to. Not to what was, but to what can be. I do not have a lion or a donkey in the Big Pontiac Show to be emotional about it. Past - good or bad cannot be changed, but future is always a possibility and can be controlled.

[Justin Bimmer]

Anything they were going to do with Pontiac they can do with Buick. Buick has muscle cars and performance in its history too.

[ocnblu]

Wildcat

Gran Sport

GSX

T-Type

Grand National

GNX

All worthy, they deserve reverence. I think most of us would love to see a performance revival at Buick. But they were all different flavors from what Pontiac stood for when they were pure, and what Mr. Lutz wanted to return them to. He was well on his way.

[David]

Why could Buick not have a Performance Option on their form and have Pontiac Versions of select auto's?

I feel GMC should have a Hummer Option for ultimate off road 4x4 also.

[SAmadei]

The question of rental cars always come up and I don't see what rentals are so bad. GM is hardly the only company who's cars are rented... yet nobody is complaining about other makes. OTOH, GM is building quasi-junk cars SPECIFICALLY as rentals (Captiva, Impala Limited (rumored until 2016))... so to someone renting cars, it seems that GM is still running 10 years behind. IMHO, GM should be getting their BEST into rentals to change people's minds.

Next, IF Pontiac was to come back, you know damn well that a G3 would not be forthcoming. The G3 and G5 were both due to the BPG dealership structuring wanting to go toe to toe with Chevy. Now that GM dealers have been realigned better, this should not be an issue. (Either that or stand alone Buick-GMC dealers are losing wads of sales for GM).

IMHO, If GM brought back a limited Pontiac with the Firebird, Grand Prix/Bonneville and the G8 ST, I'd be very happy. It would even nicer to see the Solstice reborn.

But I know it ain't happening. And I will continue to not buy from GM.

[David]

Bummer you will not buy from GM, you are missing out on some amazing auto's.

[ocnblu]

There are a lot of people who agree with him. I have family members who feel the same.

[FAPTurbo]

I guess Pontiac appeals to masochists. Why else would someone be attached to a brand that hated its own fans so much?

[SAmadei]

Bummer you will not buy from GM, you are missing out on some amazing auto's.

What? A Camaro I find uncomfortable? A CTS-V wagon or coupe that is as much as a Tesla? F... that, I'll just get a BMW or a Tesla. The fugly Chevy SS? The never-going-to-happen-because-the-Ute-dies-in-2016 El Camino? Sorry, I really don't find what GM is currently selling to be very appealing.

I put up with GM's BS for decades because I actually LIKE most of the Pontiacs they created (Not the G3, T1000, G5 or the Daewoo LeMans). I put up with the awful ergonomics of the 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds because I felt they look a 100x better than the Camaro. And I can show up at the Pontiac shows with the Firebirds, supercharged Grand Prixs, GTO or G8 and while there is a little harassment, there is still some kinship and some respect... because they understood that for every Trans Am or GTO, that GM had to sell 10 FWD appliances... unlike showing up with 'brand C'.

Eh, sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting here anymore.

[ocnblu]

Hey man, keep posting here, please. And there are some good Pontiac groups on Facebook, with great photo posts to look forward to.

[David]

Bummer you will not buy from GM, you are missing out on some amazing auto's.

What? A Camaro I find uncomfortable? A CTS-V wagon or coupe that is as much as a Tesla? F... that, I'll just get a BMW or a Tesla. The fugly Chevy SS? The never-going-to-happen-because-the-Ute-dies-in-2016 El Camino? Sorry, I really don't find what GM is currently selling to be very appealing.

I put up with GM's BS for decades because I actually LIKE most of the Pontiacs they created (Not the G3, T1000, G5 or the Daewoo LeMans). I put up with the awful ergonomics of the 3rd and 4th gen Firebirds because I felt they look a 100x better than the Camaro. And I can show up at the Pontiac shows with the Firebirds, supercharged Grand Prixs, GTO or G8 and while there is a little harassment, there is still some kinship and some respect... because they understood that for every Trans Am or GTO, that GM had to sell 10 FWD appliances... unlike showing up with 'brand C'.

Eh, sometimes I don't even know why I bother posting here anymore.

You post to strike up just this type of conversation and debate. Without everyone's voice whether you agree with it or not we cannot make change happen. Lemmings give up and accept their place in life. The Eagles will attack each other at times but accept living with each other to make change! You are a young eagle, do not give up and you will find that one auto that strikes your fancy and passion for what you love.

Fact is that while we all might come from different backgrounds and countries, what makes us human and strive for a better world is the ability to accept each other and those differences and defend why you believe in what you care about. At the end of the day, I would still sit down, offer you beer, wine, woman and song and relax taking in the beauty of our planet and the diversity of what makes it all so amazing.

I am looking at a picture on my wall of an Orange 68 Pontiac GTO Convertible and wish they could do a car like this as a limited run for the GMC/Buick family. The 08 Trailblazer AWD SS that I bought strikes me the same way. Limited production compared to the mass produced trailblazers that I do not like. Hang in there and I believe you will find that passion. Some times we do get down but never give up!

[SAmadei]

You post to strike up just this type of conversation and debate. Without everyone's voice whether you agree with it or not we cannot make change happen. Lemmings give up and accept their place in life. The Eagles will attack each other at times but accept living with each other to make change! You are a young eagle, do not give up and you will find that one auto that strikes your fancy and passion for what you love.

Oh, definitely not a lemming, as I have resisted the mainstream for decades (e.g., buying new because newer is immediately better)... but in the end, I'm actually not all that interested in convincing others to change. Knock Ponchos all you want... it drives my cost of collecting them down. Hardly young, though.

[balthazar]

daimler has made billions off of rentals / fleet sales; it's the hallmark of a great company!

[hyperv6]

The reality is GM did not have the money, Time and Man Power to fix Pontiac. Just look now at the fact we are 5 years in and we are just now getting Cadillac going, the second gen of new Chevy products and just hinting at Buick revamp.

I own Pontiacs and I love Pontiacs but even I can not give a logical reason to not kill them and even bring them back at this point.

If Pontiac had more than one viable car I would have said different but they only had 2 real performance cars and one was at the end of it's life with sales low enough not to keep it viable with the loss of the Sky too.

I do not like the government but I can not blame them for this. It was something that would have happened one way or the other. I love Lutz but he has made mistakes like not making Hummer a GMC from the start. That by the way was his claim on a mistake. Saving Pontiac just was not a good move.

[Drew Dowdell]

Sadly... I agree.

Could Pontiac have been saved? Maybe... but the cost of failure could have meant the failure of all of GM. Saab should have been folded into Opel and the Chevy decision to pull out of Europe should have been made at BK day.

[balthazar]

There is a difference in saving Pontiac as it was and re-molding it into something evolved & more focused. No one is advocating a continuance of the G3, regardless of how the haters will scream that.

There is just as much room for a niche, few-model 'Pontiac' line as any other limited-production, niche-market offering, IMO, if done with the degree of focus we've all seen from GM in recent years.
Some discuss this looking at Pontiac as a division of old; that ship has sailed. But it's not the only ship in the port.

[FAPTurbo]

Pontiac had no marketable brand cachet to sell 'evolved or focused' cars successfully.

When people think Pontiac, they think Hertz or Gramma's Grand Am.

[SAmadei]

Pontiac had no marketable brand cachet to sell 'evolved or focused' cars successfully.

When people think Pontiac, they think Hertz or Gramma's Grand Am.

Oddly, the millennials I worked with had a very good opinion of Pontiac. They liked the last of the Trans Ams... had friends with GTOs and at the time would have liked to buy a G8... but were not able to because it was on the market such a short time. Others like the Solstice. They also liked the Dodge offerings. They also thought Chevy was a different company from Pontiac and would rather buy a Honda/Toyota than a Chevy.

That said... look at the debacle going on with the Chevy SS, and how GM "doesn't know how to handle it"... they've blown its design, its pricing, its options and now its launch. Its going to fail as a Chevy, and would have been a great start for a niche Pontiac division.

Edited February 17, 2014 by SAmadei

[ocnblu]

Once again, Booyah speaks to the wrong people. Maybe he should take a bigger sample.

[balthazar]

Pontiac had no marketable brand cachet to sell 'evolved or focused' cars successfully.

When people think Pontiac, they think Hertz or Gramma's Grand Am.

"Brand Cache'" is made, not given.

The same thing was said about Pontiac circa 1953. Thankfully, those with vision prevailed.

YOU think of Hertz; thusly you speak for yourself. I never think/thought of Pontiac that way.

I guess my misspent youth was wasted not hanging out in the rental car lot at the airport.

[FAPTurbo]

[ocnblu]

Does yer mom know you took that off her refrigerator? After all the time you spent drawring it fer her?

I thought Pontiac was BIG in Canada. I mean, you got the Firefly before there was a first-ever G3. You got a Pursuit coupe AND sedan before we got a G5. I just don't understand your disdainful attitude.

[balthazar]

'No cache, no focus'

[Intrepidation]

I thought Pontiac was BIG in Canada. I mean, you got the Firefly before there was a first-ever G3. You got a Pursuit coupe AND sedan before we got a G5. I just don't understand your disdainful attitude.

I believe you answered your own question.

[ocnblu]

Duh. It is an attempt to shut Booyah down by answering HIS question. He refuses to reveal any understanding of what we're talking about, so... maybe if I throw a little mouse stuffed with catnip in his general direction, he will go play for a while.

[FAPTurbo]

He refuses to reveal any understanding of what we're talking about

I don't understand masochism or nostalgia. I also don't understand why a brand that brought us the Aztek, G3 and G6 GXP can still have fans.

Pontiac lived on a reputation that it never even had since the 80's. Pontiac still manages to 'live' because people somehow buy the idea that GM would've actually made it a 'performance brand' had it continued post BK. Time and time again, we've seen that GM had no intention of making the brand anything more than Chevrolet's with red gauges, something they even stopped caring about with the G5.

Lutz is full of himself. He's merely stoking a reliable fire because he knows that 'car guys' will listen to him and buy his books if he keeps saying what they want to hear.

Edited February 20, 2014 by FAPTurbo

[Drew Dowdell]

G8, Solstice, Firebird, Fiero, Grand Prix GTP/Comp-G, even Bonneville GXP... all perfectly good examples of performance oriented cars.

[balthazar]

^ + GTO.
GTO, G8 and Fiero were unique product; not 'Chevys with red gauges'. To a lesser degree, the others mentioned were certainly differentiated enough to stand alone, IMO.

People who for some inexplicable reason are angry at the brand will gravitate right to the G3 / Aztek.

Those who can value the cars listed above will focus on those instead, and that's how the 'chips fall' WRT opinion, apparently.

I'm sure there are BMW haters that will harp on the 318i, the FWD pods a-comin, the debacle of the Bangle Butt and the decades of horrendously cheap interiors and dismiss that entire brand, too.
I don't find this mindset legitimate in either case.