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Mercedez Benz News Mercedes-AMG to Launch 53 Line Next Year

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Just now, ccap41 said:

I think going inline is a huge part of the equation that's getting left out. NVH should all drop with this engine over every V6. If they have a smoother engine I'd assume they could use less sound deadening to reduce weight in their vehicles as well.  

True, going inline is a huge plus.  It has my interest for that alone. I think it is great that MB is moving back in that direction.

Most of my posting is in response to SMK getting kool-aid spittle all over the place about how wonderful the performance of this new engine is going to be. 

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I love the idea of modern straight 6... would love to see Jeep get a modern one also (kind of miss the old leaky 4.0).   The old Mercedes 3.0 6 was pretty smooth (used to drive my sister's '91 300CE).

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With so many V8's dying or being limited to much lower production vehicles I'll be surprised if almost all don't switch to inline 6's because then they will have a modular inline 3/4/6 cylinder situations to work with all while using the same base block and bore. 

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5 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

With so many V8's dying or being limited to much lower production vehicles I'll be surprised if almost all don't switch to inline 6's because then they will have a modular inline 3/4/6 cylinder situations to work with all while using the same base block and bore. 

That is a prediction that quite a few analysts have made.  It doesn't work as well in FWD applications, but for RWD and trucks, it could be the next big thing.  If there was any time for GM to bring back the I6/I5/I4 Atlas engines, now is the time.  They had great torque delivery for the day.  They would be great turbocharged.

 

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7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

It's going to have to make more than that since everyone else already does. Volvo is putting that kind of horsepower out with a 4-cylinder. 

The GM 3.6 twin-turbo already has substantially more power. It has cylinder deactivation. Adding eAssist would be trivial if it was even needed.

This new 6 isn't going to be Benz's standard engine though... they'll still be putting out 4-cylinders in the price range where you can get 6es from other companies. This non-performance 6 from Benz will probably be priced like a V-Sport from Cadillac. 

The 4 cylinder is getting a bump too, rumor is 299 hp, it will be more than competitive among the C-class and GLC competition, and enough for a base E-class for the seniors that don't care about HP.  The new 6 will be the base engine for a GLS and S-class or SL class.  The new six is rumored for 430ish hp that is plenty for mid-level E-class or base level S-class.  

And price of a Mercedes doesn't matter, they are priced higher than every competitor and outsell them all.

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3 hours ago, ccap41 said:

With so many V8's dying or being limited to much lower production vehicles I'll be surprised if almost all don't switch to inline 6's because then they will have a modular inline 3/4/6 cylinder situations to work with all while using the same base block and bore. 

That makes a lot of sense, but a lot have problems packaging an inline six on a front wheel drive car, I seem to remember the early Volvo S80s using a 2.9 liter inline six on a front driver, but other than that I can't think of any.  And most car companies just want to have an engine they can use in front and rear drive.  So the big guys like Ford, Toyota and GM won't go there.  

But there is no reason to make everything front drive either, you could build the Malibu or Camry on a rear drive platform and offer all wheel drive, but also that segment of car is dumping V6s anyway, so if you only need a six for a full size car or truck or SUV then it makes sense to go inline. 

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5 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Hmmmm interesting.. I'm assuming the eAssist turbo system will help reduce lag and improve efficiency? 

While the numbers alone aren't insanely impressive the engines themselves sure do sound it. 

"

The M256's two turbochargers aren't twins. One of them is an "electric auxiliary compressor" (eZV, a German acronym), which can spool up to 70,000 RPM in just 300 milliseconds.This helps negate the lag of the larger, exhaust-driven turbo. Mercedes is so confident in this twin-turbo setup, it claims that the engine has no turbo lag whatsoever. We look forward to finding out for ourselves.

Further bringing this straight-six into the future, is the M256's 48-volt electric system. TBased around a crank-mounted electric generator, the system can provide an 18-horsepower boost, regenerate energy from braking, and power the water pump and A/C compressor. Mercedes was even able to eliminate the starter motor and belt-driven alternator, replacing them with a single starter/alternator unit to save weight and eliminate complexity. 

...

A straight-six, by contrast, doesn't require any complex hardware for smooth operation, since all the cylinders are in a line. With this layout, there's no side-to-side vibrations, and at any given moment, half of the pistons are traveling up and half are traveling down, canceling out any up-down vibrations."

You realize that everything in that list has been done? 

"Crank mounted electric motor" = Honda Integrated Motor Assist

Belt driven alternator / starter = GM eAssist

Electric driven water pump = every GM Ecotec from the second generation on... Plus I'm sure others

Electric driven A/C = any second generation full hybrid

Inline 6 = @balthazar what year was that?

The only thing innovative is the electric turbo.

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Inline 6s are pre-1920, likely pre-1910. Any 6 from this far back was inline, most 8 cylinders were inline also.

Again I state; if inline 6s are going to be the new/old thing, I want to see some inline 8s.
- - - - -
MB going to an I6 is only "huge news" if it 's addressing decades of harsh, vibrating Mercedes V6s. If that's factual- why did Daimler wait however many years/decades to replace the V6? If it's NOT factual, increasing smoothness is a 'solution' to a non-problem.

Which is why I believe the likely motivation has been mentioned here; a move to save money by following the old GM example of sharing parts within different engine cylinder counts, IE: the Series 71 engines.

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14 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You realize that everything in that list has been done? 

"Crank mounted electric motor" = Honda Integrated Motor Assist

Belt driven alternator / starter = GM eAssist

Electric driven water pump = every GM Ecotec from the second generation on... Plus I'm sure others

Electric driven A/C = any second generation full hybrid

Inline 6 = @balthazar what year was that?

The only thing innovative is the electric turbo.

So where is the example of them all thrown together? Mercedes? 

13 hours ago, balthazar said:

Again I state; if inline 6s are going to be the new/old thing, I want to see some inline 8s.

I just want to hear an I8. I bet they sound pretty cool. 

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I don't think they're necessarily replacing harsh V6's but if they have a smoother engine that can be used more and modular, why not? Also, if it's smoother and quieter they won't need as much sound deadening in the vehicle saving on weight. Whole package idea, not just one or two things. 

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1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

So where is the example of them all thrown together? Mercedes? 

Not all of them need to be together, and one or two of those things missing does not mean a competitor isn't as good.  Having a belt driven alternator AND a crank mounted electric motor seems like an excess to me. Honda IMA didn't have an alternator, the crank mounted motor recharged the 12-volt battery.  Both the Honda IMA and GM eAssist used their electric motors as starters, but also had conventional starters as backup. Electric driven water pumps are a common thing these days... having it is like bragging that you have direct injection in your car.  All modern hybrids have electric A/C.  I can't see jumping up and down with excitement over a new MB engine that has tech from a 2008 Malibu. 

In some cases, other manufacturers will achieve a similar result with different methods. 

1. The RX hybrid's electric motors are only connected to the rear wheels and operate completely independently from the gasoline motor.  Does that make the RX less advanced than this eAssist Benz?  I wouldn't say so.

2. GM puts their electric assist only as a belt alternator-starter in the Silverado eAssist. It contributes 13 hp versus Mercedes' 18hp, but otherwise achieves the same effect.  The CT6 has two 100hp motors in the transmission. 

3. Volvo uses a supercharger and turbocharger in tandem on their hybrid.  This means the boost is instant much like what MB is going for with the electric turbo. 

Aside from the electric turbo, various combinations of these technologies can be found on any number of electrified vehicles.  Off the top of my head: Honda, Toyota, GM, FCA, BMW, Nissan, Ford, Kia, and Hyundai all have them. 

Is any one combination superior? Well, vote with your dollars... but there is nothing about the MB that is revolutionary. 

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So far Mercedes and the 2019 Audi A8 which isn't on sale are the only 48 volt cars, that is what makes them special, and years from now everyone will have it.  That is the revolutionary part, they are the first ones and will lead the pack.

A lot of Drew's comparisons are to hybrid cars, the Mercedes inline six isn't made to be a hybrid competitor, it is made to be a turbo V6 competitor, and in that regard is mops the floor with the competitors V6s and even the M3's inline six.

Mercedes is making an 805 hp plug in hybrid V8 GT sedan if the CLS53 isn't enough powerrrrrrrr.   That is somewhere Cadillac, Volvo, Lexus or BMW won't go.

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Somebody sounds sour that Mercedes manages to integrate all of those things from other companies into one. Yeah, they're not the first. Okay. But they're the first to integrate all of those technologies into one engine and I don't see how, in any way, that can be seen in a negative light. 

Using a supercharger to eliminate lag HAS to take more energy than an electronic turbo. The belt is spinning something whether it is engaged or not. 

I also don't recall saying it was revolutionary but simply asked what other vehicle has combined those technologies into one engine and with your list of what other vehicles use, no. Nobody else has combined them all. yet. 

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6 hours ago, ccap41 said:

I don't think they're necessarily replacing harsh V6's but if they have a smoother engine that can be used more and modular, why not? Also, if it's smoother and quieter they won't need as much sound deadening in the vehicle saving on weight. Whole package idea, not just one or two things. 

Another reality question : were consumers complaining about the roughness of MB V6s? Anywhere? If the answer is 'no', then is the 'increased smoothness' even going to be noticable? Is it worth publicizing to try and gain sales?

Or is it worth publicizing to deflect attention away from a move to economies of scale?

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18 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

So far Mercedes and the 2019 Audi A8 which isn't on sale are the only 48 volt cars, that is what makes them special,

:banghead:

NO. THEY. ARE. NOT.  They aren't even the first!

48 volt is not some magical number that is super special. ALL of the mild hybrids that have EVER been built are some large increment over 12 volts.  The original GM BAS was 32 volts, the current one is 115 volts. Honda IMA is 114 volts.   

There are Impalas on the road today with a higher voltage system than what Benz is offering on this. 

8 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Somebody sounds sour that Mercedes manages to integrate all of those things from other companies into one. Yeah, they're not the first. Okay. But they're the first to integrate all of those technologies into one engine and I don't see how, in any way, that can be seen in a negative light. 

Using a supercharger to eliminate lag HAS to take more energy than an electronic turbo. The belt is spinning something whether it is engaged or not. 

I also don't recall saying it was revolutionary but simply asked what other vehicle has combined those technologies into one engine and with your list of what other vehicles use, no. Nobody else has combined them all. yet. 

You didn't say they were revolutionary, but SMK seems to think they are.  And no I don't think that the combination of technologies is a negative... you're reading me entirely wrong.  I'm saying that this combination of technologies is nothing special.  This particular combination, again not including the electric turbo which is interesting, isn't particularly special.  No I'm not butt-hurt over the combination... I actually think having the BAS and the crank motor adds too much complexity... there really is no need for both unless there is some technical issue that Mercedes can't engineer around that Honda and GM managed to 10+ years ago.

Yes you are correct about a supercharger taking power to spin.  But again, Volvo is producing the same power figures out of a 4-cylinder in a vehicle released 2 years ago. I'd expect more from a newer Mercedes. This is about expectations.

Yes some of the comparisons I'm making are full hybrids... because by the time you've added a crank mounted motor, a belt alternator-starter, an electric turbo, batteries to run it all, plus the programing to make it work properly, why not just go with a full hybrid anyway? What possible cost savings are you getting by not going full-hybrid?  At least with a full hybrid, you could also run in EV mode part of the time. 

So, to set the record straight. 

The Audi and Benz are NOT the first higher voltage cars out there. 

I am NOT negative about this engine.

I simply expected more than 2 year old Volvo or 6 year old Cadillac specs from something with this much tech thrown at it. 

4 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Another reality question : were consumers complaining about the roughness of MB V6s? Anywhere? If the answer is 'no', then is the 'increased smoothness' even going to be noticable? Is it worth publicizing to try and gain sales?

Or is it worth publicizing to deflect attention away from a move to economies of scale?

It takes a lot of work to smooth out a rough engine. If Buick is using expensive active engine mounts and noise cancelation (they are), then I'm sure Mercedes is too.  If they no longer need to spend as much time / money / effort / weight to smooth and silence the engine, they can divert that effort elsewhere. 

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46 minutes ago, balthazar said:

Another reality question : were consumers complaining about the roughness of MB V6s? Anywhere? If the answer is 'no', then is the 'increased smoothness' even going to be noticable? Is it worth publicizing to try and gain sales?

Or is it worth publicizing to deflect attention away from a move to economies of scale?

I already gave you one realistic reason why lower NVH would benefit any vehicle, especially a luxury automaker. 

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I don't think smoothness and noise are irrevocably linked. Vibration is, but unless things outside then engine are loose- it's not going to be quieter, especially if we're only talking about a few seismic percentage points difference. IOW; I think just as much sound  (road, exhaust, solenoid, fan, etc) deadening is going to be utilized.

If the V6 was really rough, I could see more noise issues being present.

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1 hour ago, balthazar said:

Another reality question : were consumers complaining about the roughness of MB V6s? Anywhere? If the answer is 'no', then is the 'increased smoothness' even going to be noticable? Is it worth publicizing to try and gain sales?

Or is it worth publicizing to deflect attention away from a move to economies of scale?

It 100% helps with economies of scale because they build so many inline 4’s.  But they are also trading a 329-396 hp turbo V6 to a guesstimated 369-430 hp inline six that will be smoother and has better gas mileage. 

This is the the Best or Nothing at work, they don’t wait around to let something go stale or say our V6 is “good enough.”  The E43 and C43 often win comparisons but they can still make them better.  And that is why Mercedes is Mercedes and Cadillac and Lexus are not.  

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I don't know why they dropped the inline six, probably because at the time V8s were more common and they did a V8 and V6 share of some sort, for a while Mercedes had a 90 degree V6 I think, before changing to the 60 degree.  And they made some bad decisions in the late 90s.  But it makes sense now to go back to it.

And Mercedes has plug in hybrids and an updated system on the way, EV's on the way, etc.  The 48 volt I-6 is a replacement for the current gas V6s as a way to get more fuel economy and even more power, which is a win-win.

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4 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Somebody sounds sour that Mercedes manages to integrate all of those things from other companies into one. Yeah, they're not the first. Okay. But they're the first to integrate all of those technologies into one engine and I don't see how, in any way, that can be seen in a negative light. 

Using a supercharger to eliminate lag HAS to take more energy than an electronic turbo. The belt is spinning something whether it is engaged or not. 

I also don't recall saying it was revolutionary but simply asked what other vehicle has combined those technologies into one engine and with your list of what other vehicles use, no. Nobody else has combined them all. yet. 

Superior Electric Superchargers are still better than electric turbos as they never have lag period.

In regards to incorporating them all, it would seem MB seems to have not been able to figure out a sellable EV auto and as such to meet the European new emissions they are throwing everything into a pot to hope it actually makes the soup taste better not asking if too much is a bad thing.

This also just sounds like slight of hand that MB is using marketing gimmick solutions to reinvent an old pig that is still the same solution just different lipstick.

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It 100% helps with economies of scale because they build so many inline 4’s.  But they are also trading a 329-396 hp turbo V6 to a guesstimated 369-430 hp inline six that will be smoother and has better gas mileage. 

This is the the Best or Nothing at work, they don’t wait around to let something go stale or say our V6 is “good enough.”  The E43 and C43 often win comparisons but they can still make them better.  And that is why Mercedes is Mercedes and Cadillac and Lexus are not.  

So flip flopping on Inline 6, drop it for V6, now drop it for Inline 6 and no real gains over their past engines. 

Nothing but a Shell Game of Marketing messages to imply it is better when it is not and they are late to the game from Voltage of the electric system to use of electrical engine components, to trying to say really old is better than old so we are now new with an old engine design and an old electrical system compared to the competition.

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We don’t know any specs of this engine or the E53 and CLS53 but we do know horsepower, torque and gas mileage will be better than what is in the C43 and E43 now.  That is why I am excited, the E43 (which has won comparison tests) will have had 2 model years and they will replace with something better.   The CT6 twin turbo V6 came out at the same time as the E43, we the CT6 get an all new engine next year?  Will the 540i?  Is the Lexus GS even going to be in production next year?

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6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

We don’t know any specs of this engine or the E53 and CLS53 but we do know horsepower, torque and gas mileage will be better than what is in the C43 and E43 now.  That is why I am excited, the E43 (which has won comparison tests) will have had 2 model years and they will replace with something better.   The CT6 twin turbo V6 came out at the same time as the E43, we the CT6 get an all new engine next year?  Will the 540i?  Is the Lexus GS even going to be in production next year?

Or reality, due to MB own emission issues, they were forced to make a radical change so early on a 2yr old engine to meet European emission laws.

From a business sense, this makes no sense to kill off an engine that is only 2yrs old just because. There is more to this story than just because.

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7 hours ago, dfelt said:

Or reality, due to MB own emission issues, they were forced to make a radical change so early on a 2yr old engine to meet European emission laws.

From a business sense, this makes no sense to kill off an engine that is only 2yrs old just because. There is more to this story than just because.

Well that bi-tubo V6 goes back to 2014 model year in 329 hp guise, the E43 396 hp version came out for 2016.  The business case is that it is cheaper to make I-6 engines because they make hundreds of thousands of I-4 engines and 75% of the parts are the same, so they can buy in bulk and build on the same line, etc.  Economies of scale are better.  

And sure they have to meet emission laws, but that is good, they have an engine that emits less C02, uses less gas and makes more power.  Road & Track from the Euro-market S-class with this engine, it made 435 hp 0-60 in 4.7 seconds and they said it can shut the engine off during coasting not just stop lights, and the start stop is unnoticeable, zero shake or vibration.   They were very impressed by it.  

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On 12/16/2017 at 12:05 PM, smk4565 said:

Well that bi-tubo V6 goes back to 2014 model year in 329 hp guise, the E43 396 hp version came out for 2016.  The business case is that it is cheaper to make I-6 engines because they make hundreds of thousands of I-4 engines and 75% of the parts are the same, so they can buy in bulk and build on the same line, etc.  Economies of scale are better.  

And sure they have to meet emission laws, but that is good, they have an engine that emits less C02, uses less gas and makes more power.  Road & Track from the Euro-market S-class with this engine, it made 435 hp 0-60 in 4.7 seconds and they said it can shut the engine off during coasting not just stop lights, and the start stop is unnoticeable, zero shake or vibration.   They were very impressed by it.  

Yet like flip flopping fish you state this is world best with HP and Torque and now you say we do not know anything. So which is it, world best which seems not to be, marketing BS to just confuse the lemmings buying their products or honestly just pushing the agenda of MB makes best of everything?

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On 12/15/2017 at 6:40 PM, dfelt said:

Superior Electric Superchargers are still better than electric turbos as they never have lag period.

In regards to incorporating them all, it would seem MB seems to have not been able to figure out a sellable EV auto and as such to meet the European new emissions they are throwing everything into a pot to hope it actually makes the soup taste better not asking if too much is a bad thing.

This also just sounds like slight of hand that MB is using marketing gimmick solutions to reinvent an old pig that is still the same solution just different lipstick.

 

Isn't the whole electric turbocharger there to get rid of lag completely? 

Incorporating all of those has nothing to do with selling an EV. Not sure if you're just trying to plug EVs into everything but that has nothing to do with this vehicle. 

Do you just not like Inline 6's? Because it isn't the same solution as there hasn't been one engine with all of the technology wrapped into one package. Yes, as Drew has said none of it is brand new stuff but it is new to incorporate it into one engine. 

23 minutes ago, dfelt said:

Yet like flip flopping fish you state this is world best with HP and Torque and now you say we do not know anything. So which is it, world best which seems not to be, marketing BS to just confuse the lemmings buying their products or honestly just pushing the agenda of MB makes best of everything?

Where did he say "worlds best" in referencing this engine? 

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