Corvette C8 Z06 1st official tease

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, Robert Hall said:

Time to block you, no value in seeing your pointless posts anymore.

Same. Not worth it when it comes to broken record "debates".

[Robert Hall]

I'm looking forward to future road test results and comparison tests..sounds like it's a beast.   

[G. David Felt]

Hybrid is undergoing testing in Germany, kicking Germans with a world beating Hybrid C8

 

[G. David Felt]

@surreal1272 @Robert Hall Yes @smk4565 goes off the rails on his punch drunk love of Mercedes, but then others do it for other brands and he seems to be a lost soul on F1 racing when his beloved mistress cannot even deliver their fabled AMG One F1 street legal auto and are falling behind in the Hybrid/EV race based on delays and especially current financial reporting that shows the German brands have LOST market share due to the global chip shortage. 

Loosing market share in China to the Chinese Pirate auto companies hurts and we will see where it ends up. 

Occasionally @smk4565 makes some decent posts and we are in a Democracy where all can freely speak their mind. Yes his multi-page posts goes off the rails when we should be discussing the topic of the thread.

So WHAT DO YOU @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @smk4565 @ccap41 @balthazar @oldshurst442, I so wish I had an @channel or @thread notification of the video showing the C8 Hybrid corvettes?

Have to say it should be wicked Fast but a bit quiet for those that are wanting a throaty V8 Snarl.

 

 

[Robert Hall]

The hybrid Corvette does sound interesting...going to be interesting to see where it fits in the lineup and how it's marketed...above the base, below the Z06? ...and I assume there  is room for ZR1 at the top eventually...

[G. David Felt]

22 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

The hybrid Corvette does sound interesting...going to be interesting to see where it fits in the lineup and how it's marketed...above the base, below the Z06? ...and I assume there  is room for ZR1 at the top eventually...

Could it be the new Entry level Corvette as GM moves to EV's?

Pricing will for sure be interesting on this compared to an NA C8.

[Robert Hall]

16 minutes ago, David said:

Could it be the new Entry level Corvette as GM moves to EV's?

Pricing will for sure be interesting on this compared to an NA C8.

 

16 minutes ago, David said:

Could it be the new Entry level Corvette as GM moves to EV's?

Pricing will for sure be interesting on this compared to an NA C8.

Could be.  I could also see an extreme hybrid range topper model as Porsche and Ferrari have done before.  

[smk4565]

6 hours ago, David said:

@surreal1272 @Robert Hall Yes @smk4565 goes off the rails on his punch drunk love of Mercedes, but then others do it for other brands and he seems to be a lost soul on F1 racing when his beloved mistress cannot even deliver their fabled AMG One F1 street legal auto and are falling behind in the Hybrid/EV race based on delays and especially current financial reporting that shows the German brands have LOST market share due to the global chip shortage. 

Loosing market share in China to the Chinese Pirate auto companies hurts and we will see where it ends up. 

Occasionally @smk4565 makes some decent posts and we are in a Democracy where all can freely speak their mind. Yes his multi-page posts goes off the rails when we should be discussing the topic of the thread.

So WHAT DO YOU @surreal1272 @Robert Hall @smk4565 @ccap41 @balthazar @oldshurst442, I so wish I had an @channel or @thread notification of the video showing the C8 Hybrid corvettes?

Have to say it should be wicked Fast but a bit quiet for those that are wanting a throaty V8 Snarl.

 

 

Mercedes-AMG has the E-performance hybrid that works like an F1 car, it’s already on GT63S, it will be on the C63, S-class and SL next year and GT coupe the year after when the new model arrives.  That’s 5 hybrids by the time the E-ray is on sale or roughly at the same time depending when all this stuff hits dealers.

I think performance hybrid is a great idea though, will be interesting to see how they package it on the Corvette. Whether it be EV front axle and gas on the rear axle or EV integrated into the drivetrain.

5 hours ago, David said:

Could it be the new Entry level Corvette as GM moves to EV's?

Pricing will for sure be interesting on this compared to an NA C8.

Hybrid won’t be the entry level, but there could be multiple hybrids.  You could put a hybrid system on the 6.2 V8, the 5.5 V8, on a turbo V6 or V8.  You could potentially make all Corvettes hybrids and still have 3-4 power levels.

[G. David Felt]

Here is something we will NEVER see out of German Brands in an actual auto or even as a crate option. 10.3 Liters of Naturally Aspirated Big Block Power with no Turbo's or anything special running on Pump Gas.

@balthazar Should put this in his 59 car!

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gm-crate-engine-zz632-1000-horsepower/

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19432060.html

They are taking pre-orders now, $29,499.00

PRODUCT DETAILS

---

Chevrolet’s Biggest, Baddest Big-Block Ever!

• Tall-deck Sportsman Bowtie block with an all-forged roller assembly

• Hydraulic roller camshaft and all-new, high-flow spread-port cylinder heads derived from Pro Stock racing technology

• Crank-trigger ignition system with coil-near-plug ignition coils mounted on a unique valley plate

• EFI induction system for precise fuel control and stunning output with pump gas

• Kit includes pre-programmed, self-learning control system

• Due to crate fitment, the throttle body is shipped uninstalled and must be installed by the engine installer

• Requires starter, EFI-compatible high-pressure fuel pump and air cleaner compatible with 4500-series (Dominator) mounting flange

• Cylinder head exhaust port design requires custom exhaust system

• Requires internally balanced flywheel for manual transmission applications

• Not intended for marine applications

 

TECH SPECS

Part Number: 19432060

Engine Type: Chevy Tall-Deck Big-Block V-8

Displacement (cu in): 632

Bore x Stroke (in / mm): 4.600 x 4.750

Block (P/N 19366599): Cast iron Bowtie with 4-bolt main caps – tall deck

Crankshaft (P/N 19366600): Forged 4340 steel

Connecting Rods (P/N 19432392): Forged steel H-beam

Pistons (P/N 19366601): Forged aluminum 2618 alloy

Intake Manifold (P/N 19366614): Aluminum high-rise single-plane

Throttle Body (P/N 19366624): 4500-style

Fuel Injectors (P/N 19432057): 86-lb/hr

Camshaft Type (P/N 19432531): Billet steel hydraulic roller

Valve Lift (in): 0.780 intake / 0.782 exhaust

Camshaft Duration (@ 0.050 in): 270º intake / 285º exhaust

Cylinder Heads (P/N 19431810): Aluminum spread-port; 70cc chambers – RS-X design

Valve Size (in): 2.450 intake / 1.800 exhaust, titanium (5/16-in stem OD)

Ignition Type: 58X crank-triggered, coil-near-plug

Compression Ratio: 12.0:1 (nominal)

Rocker Arms (P/N 19431272): Forged aluminum; roller-style

Rocker Arm Ratio: 1.8:1 (shaft-mount)

Water Pump (P/N 14058915): Aluminum

Oil Pan (P/N 19366604): Steel 8-quart

Recommended Fuel: Premium pump (93 octane or higher)

Maximum Recommended RPM: 7,000 rpm

Balanced: Internal

[balthazar]

^ I already posted this.

But I don't put other brand engines in cars, so; no.

[oldshurst442]

The next C8 to come out will be the E-Ray Hybrid.  Speculation is sometime in 2023.  The Z06 is gonna go on sale sometime in 2022. 

The Grand Sport was supposed to be the next one to be released, but that trim was replaced by a Hybrid Model. The E-Ray. 

The Grand Sport was supposed to use the 6.2 LT1 but with the Z06 body and aero. No word if it was going to be naturally aspirated or supercharged.  Let me stress this part:  The E-Ray replaces it 

What is the E-Ray?

It will be AWD. Two electric motors will be powering the front wheels while the LT1 naturally aspirated 6.2 will be powering the rear wheels.  It is believed that together as a unit, the electric motors assisting  the internal combustion engine to have produce 600 HP and 500 and then some ft/lbs of torque. And of course a battery pack. No word on what KW/H battery it will be. That is still a top secret. 

No word on what the exterior body will look like.   Will it have the Z51 body or will it have the Z06 body or will it even have the Z07 package?!   THAT will be the other surprise.

One COULD say that the E-Ray is slotted 1 small step above the Z06, but one has to remember that the Z06 is the one that is going to be the most track focused.    That also does NOT mean that the E-Ray won't be the fastest around the Nürburgring.  

There is a lot of engineering in the LT6.  If one took the time to read up on it, one wouldnt be casually dismissing it and what that engine means inside the Z06.

*Cough*  SMK  *Cough*

 

And bare in mind, that the Z06, even with the Z07 package, is NOT a comprised daily driver.  

It has leather, it has A/C. It has retained the trunk AND frunk where one COULD take the Z06/Z07 across the country from the Atlantic to the Pacific, from the Mexico border to the Canadian border, from Washington State to the Florida Keys, from Maine to California zig zagging across the counbtry in comfort while drag racing it and tracking it, then shipping it to Europe, do THAT continent in comfort and stopping at the 'Ring and back home. 

BECAUSE it HAS a trunk and a frunk, and THE latest magnetic ride control. 

And the lap times AT the 'Ring are said to be BELOW 7 seconds...

Again...the Corvette C8 Z06 is NOT a compromised DAILY DRIVER and it WILL have 'Ring times BELOW 7 seconds...   

Its a pig of a car said to be 3400lbs.   The internet is discussing if that is dry weight or with all its liquids.

IIt wont be that bad if it was 3400lbs net weight.  But the thing is, the Z06/Z07 IS a no compromise daily driver MASS produced track beast.  It WONT be a garage queen. And it AINT a boutique, limited produced, illegal for the street, race machine costing hundreds of thousands of dollars.   The Z06 is said to be BELOW 100 000 dollars.  

THAT is incredible engineering!!!!

And if THAT does not impress you, the miracle of flight wont either...so there is nothing to argue about with a naysayer...

 

 

Edited October 28, 2021 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

They could do an E-ray with the LT1 V8, a Stingray hybrid if you will.  And then also take the LT6 engine with turbos and add the hybrid system for the ZR1.  Who says there is only going to be 1 hybrid, if I were them I'd be thinking 2-3 hybrid powertrains, especially if you can adapt one of those to another vehicle that isn't the Corvette like an Escalade or pick up.

[oldshurst442]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-chevrolet-corvette-z06-lt6-v8-flat-plane-crankshaft-tech/

 

Not only is the 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06's LT6 engine the largest flat-plane crankshaft V-8 in the world, it's also the world's most powerful naturally aspirated production V-8, leapfrogging the 622-hp 6.2-liter M159 engine that powered the Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG Black Series from 2013-2014 and producing 670 hp at 8,400 rpm. How did Chevy more than manage to find "a replacement for [745 cubic centimeters' worth of] displacement" relative to that mighty Benz? With better breathing and by spinning the engine a lot faster—horsepower is, after all, just torque times rpm divided by 5,252. Also note that at 460 lb-ft this is not the world's torquiest V-8 (the Benz above made 468). Here are five ways Chevy accomplished this.

 

[oldshurst442]

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022-chevrolet-corvette-c8-z06-zora-zr1-eray-rumors/

2023 Chevrolet Corvette ZR1

Yes, there's going to be a Corvette ZR1. Chevy will mutate the Z06 into the ZR1 by plumbing two turbochargers into the aforementioned 5.5-liter flat-plane V-8. Horsepower will be in the 825 to 850 range. McLaren's already figured out how to squeeze 804 hp from its 4.0-liter twin-turbo, flat-plane V-8 in the Elva. The engine masters at Chevy should have no problem extracting a bit more power than the kids in Woking with an extra liter and a half of displacement to play with. Torque should be ungodly.

Beyond that, we know nothing more about the future ZR1. Price should start in the $120K neighborhood, similar to the C7 ZR1.

2023 Chevrolet Corvette PHEV

There will be a Corvette hybrid—well, two actually, but let's concentrate on this one. Probably called E-Ray, expect the hybrid C8 to be an AWD plug-in hybrid (PHEV) with two motors on the front axle and possibly a third motor pancaked between the dual-clutch transmission and engine. Kiss the frunk goodbye, as that space will be used for the front traction motors and batteries.

What will the engine be? Our source didn't have any new info for us on this one, other than to confirm that it's coming. But our educated bet is that the PHEV will rock the Z06's 5.5-liter NA V-8. Why? The LT1 in the base C8 is a fine old pushrod workhorse, but by the time this PHEV hits dealers, it'll be old. Very old. An engine that's a decade newer will have better engine management software, and we're thinking that would better complement (and future-proof) a modern C8 hybrid. Like, quicker computers and stuff—I'm not a scientician.

But maybe not. We've heard other rumors that the LT1 will stick around, in detuned form. Hey, it's a known quantity, right? It's less likely, but maybe Chevy will go all BMW i8 and stick a V-6 or even an inline-four behind the driver? We just don't know. Yet.

But as you'll read in a bit, there's good reason to think the hybrid will use the Z06's V-8. As for power, I figure the hybrid will slot in between the Z06 and the ZR1. A total system output of 775 hp feels about right. $100,000 for such a machine makes sense. Would there be room for a less expensive Corvette hybrid with a non-V-8? Oh yes, especially where it snows.

2024 Chevrolet Corvette Electric

Have you heard? General Motors would like to sell totally emissions-free cars by 2035 and be carbon neutral as a corporation by 2040. You can't achieve those goals with big, fat, gas-burnin' V-8s, can you? Hence, an all-electric Corvette. Could the electric C8 Corvette be called E-Ray? Yes, it could be—but the important part is, we're sure it's coming, and it's safe to assume that the technology in the C8 hybrid will be shared with EV. In other words, you use the same motors for the front wheels and simply power them with a larger battery pack. Price? Probably less than the ZR1, as the C8 EV will use powertrain pieces from other GM electric vehicles. When does it arrive? 2024 is a good guess. All we know for sure is an EV C8 Corvette is imminent.

2025 Chevrolet Corvette Zora

Woo! Meet Chevy's 1,000-plus-horsepower hypercar. We've been writing about the 2025 Corvette Zora for years. No, really—since August 2014. The Zora will use the twin-turbo V-8 from the ZR1 and the hybrid system from the hybrid—E-Ray or whatever it ends up being called. If you figure on 850 hp from the gas engine and 150 hp from the EV components, that gets you right to 1,000 hp. What if each motor produced 150 hp? That would be 1,150 hp. Yes, we're speculating, as Chevy is super tight-lipped about this monster C8.

 

You can start to see the logic behind what the Corvette team is up to. By having the various power units effectively plug and play/mix and match with one another, you get a cost-benefit that keeps prices down across the range. It makes for some very fun math: Z06 engine + front-wheel motors = Corvette hybrid. ZR1 engine + front-wheel motors = Zora. Hence the Zora might start at the relatively cheap price of $150,000. That's what Deep Burble's telling us, at any rate.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-chevrolet-corvette-z06-c8-first-ride-review/

Winning Hearts, Not Just Minds

Throughout the 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06's design and development process, the team responsible for it was keenly aware of the respect the C8 Stingray has received in the wider sports-car community. To build on this respect, the Z06 needs to accelerate quicker and handle better, but it also needs to feel even more special. The Z06 must be a car that inspires buyers to eagerly swap their Lamborghini Huracán or Ferrari F8 for—and not because performance tests like MotorTrend's generate better numbers in it, or because of its value proposition. No, Chevy wants to conquest other brands' loyalists via the fact those customers' hearts and heads simply must have this Corvette with the banshee howl, the Can-Am sucker-car grip, and the cockpit-style cabin lined with soft leather and carbon-fiber trim. And because the Z06 promises to be the more satisfying driver's car.

 

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2023-chevrolet-corvette-z06-lt6-v8-flat-plane-crankshaft-tech/

Bonus: Million-Dollar COVID Exhaust

The Corvette team really hopes you like the exhaust sound because it was expensive. When the pandemic shut things down, spending also stopped. But the computers kept iterating exhaust system designs, resulting in this one with the center-exit. Everyone loved the sound but tearing up the rear fascia design to accommodate the centrally mounted reverse-megaphone exhaust tips cost "millions." Worth it!

[Robert Hall]

On 10/28/2021 at 6:32 PM, David said:

Here is something we will NEVER see out of German Brands in an actual auto or even as a crate option. 10.3 Liters of Naturally Aspirated Big Block Power with no Turbo's or anything special running on Pump Gas.

@balthazar Should put this in his 59 car!

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/gm-crate-engine-zz632-1000-horsepower/

https://www.gmperformancemotor.com/parts/19432060.html

They are taking pre-orders now, $29,499.00

 

That is amazing to see that kind of power out of an NA engine..and so ordinary looking, looks like an old time hot rodder muscle car engine. 

A 1/25th scale version for model cars is already out, may have to get one to put in an AMT '70 Camaro or Chevelle..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393657722118?hash=item5ba7d42506:g:XDkAAOSwfBRhfFRB

Edited October 30, 2021 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

^^^   I wanted to do a laughy emogi, but that might have sent the wrong message.  So I went with an approval emogi! 

I laughed but in a good way.   Model making and modifying go hand in hand with the more experienced model makers.  And definitely that 1/25th scale 632 BELONGS in a 1/25th scale plastic model Camaro/Chevelle/Impala SS. Even a Corvette or Nova.  And the model  could be made to be a restomod.   Very interesting that somebody made a (I assume it to be) 3D printed version of it! 

On a side note.  Im very excited about the future of home versions of 3D printers and cant wait when this technology becomes the norm in our society.  People in the know say that a 3D printer will be as common as a toaster and microwave oven in a household in the next decade.   

 

 

[oldshurst442]

I just viewed a video where a Chevy engineer confirmed that the DRY weight of the Z06/Z07 package C8 is the lightest at 3450 LBS.   Add all the liquids and the weight goes up by another couple of hundred pounds.

That tells me 2 things about the Corvette C8 and what Chevy wanted to do with it. (This is my personal opinion)

1. Chevy wanted to keep the daily driven qualities intact with the C8 all the way through.  Chevy wanted to go slightly upscale in feel with the interior with the C8. Chevy didnt want to lend itself to  ANY possible feedback stating that the C8 feels cheap in ANY way even if a said model was going to be a stripped model on purpose for racing and track purposes.   Weight reduction regarding thinner materials in glass using plexiglass or lexan glass or seats being bare bones or radio and A/C delete and stuff like that to make a pure bred race car was never an option they wanted to explore.  Introducing an all carbon fiber and exotic material chassis was never on option (for a Z06) as that would just explode the MSRP price point.  
2. That leaves a very very interesting option going forward though.  Either for the Zora or for a special special model down the road either as a very very limited C8 or a last model goodbye send off model before the C9 is introduced.   To have a massive weight reduction model offered.  

 

But alas, some people WILL harp on the fact that the Z07 will be 3600/3700 lbs.

But sadly, many naysayers will gloss over the superb engineering that went into the LT6 engine and the superb chassis that is the C8 and the Z06 version of it. 

 

Winning Hearts, Not Just Minds

Throughout the 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06's design and development process, the team responsible for it was keenly aware of the respect the C8 Stingray has received in the wider sports-car community. To build on this respect, the Z06 needs to accelerate quicker and handle better, but it also needs to feel even more special. The Z06 must be a car that inspires buyers to eagerly swap their Lamborghini Huracán or Ferrari F8 for—and not because performance tests like MotorTrend's generate better numbers in it, or because of its value proposition. No, Chevy wants to conquest other brands' loyalists via the fact those customers' hearts and heads simply must have this Corvette with the banshee howl, the Can-Am sucker-car grip, and the cockpit-style cabin lined with soft leather and carbon-fiber trim. And because the Z06 promises to be the more satisfying driver's car.

[Robert Hall]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

^^^   I wanted to do a laughy emogi, but that might have sent the wrong message.  So I went with an approval emogi! 

I laughed but in a good way.   Model making and modifying go hand in hand with the more experienced model makers.  And definitely that 1/25th scale 632 BELONGS in a 1/25th scale plastic model Camaro/Chevelle/Impala SS. Even a Corvette or Nova.  And the model  could be made to be a restomod.   Very interesting that somebody made a (I assume it to be) 3D printed version of it! 

On a side note.  Im very excited about the future of home versions of 3D printers and cant wait when this technology becomes the norm in our society.  People in the know say that a 3D printer will be as common as a toaster and microwave oven in a household in the next decade.   

 

 

Yeah, I’ll find something appropos in my stash to do as a BBC restomod.  Maybe something offbeat like a ‘72 Impala. 

[Robert Hall]

I tried using the visualizer on the Corvette site to go through the color choices for the Z06, but it wasn’t working.  It does sound like it will get a lot of color choices inside and out like the regular Corvette.  I like that the Corvette has a lot of interior color choices, instead of just dour despair gray or black like so many performance cars.  

Edit:  tried the visualizer again on Chrome, and it worked.  Spec'ed one out the way I'd want it--Z06 convertible in Caffeine, w/ the bronze wheels, with Natural dipped tan interior, 'stealth interior trim' (non-carbon fiber, which works for me, as I find carbon fiber gross).  

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by Robert Hall

[ccap41]

On 10/30/2021 at 10:23 AM, Robert Hall said:

That is amazing to see that kind of power out of an NA engine..and so ordinary looking, looks like an old time hot rodder muscle car engine. 

A 1/25th scale version for model cars is already out, may have to get one to put in an AMT '70 Camaro or Chevelle..

https://www.ebay.com/itm/393657722118?hash=item5ba7d42506:g:XDkAAOSwfBRhfFRB

That freakin rocks! I should buy one and drop it in my C5Z model. 

[G. David Felt]

Lovely looking

 

 

[balthazar]

On 10/30/2021 at 11:23 AM, Robert Hall said:

That is amazing to see that kind of power out of an NA engine..and so ordinary looking, looks like an old time hot rodder muscle car engine

My brother’s Pontiac motor puts down 1170 HP- all naturally-aspirated. I have to ask him again what the displacement is, might be in the low 600s CI.

[oldshurst442]

A possible 70th anniversary model Z06?   

With 2 new colours to commemorate 70 years of Corvette?

 

[oldshurst442]

 

[oldshurst442]

 

[oldshurst442]

 

[oldshurst442]

 

[oldshurst442]

Ford never took the GT to the Nurburgring.  I wonder what times the Carbon Series would do on that track?

 

Ford GT MKIV with 800HP as a final send-off would probably be a fast lapper.  

 

I keep on saying it, I want Corvette to have SEVERAL trims to SPECIALIZE and COMPETE with ALL supercars.  The latest C8 Z06 is a road car.  Its a track beast but it retains TOO much daily driving weight to it and is TOO much of a road going car. The Z06 NEEDS a road legal, but less forgiving daily driver version to be able to beat cars like the Ford GT, or Ferrari 458 Pista and Porsche 911 GT3 RS.   

[ccap41]

On 12/24/2022 at 9:56 AM, oldshurst442 said:

 

I actually just watched this on my way to work today. I thoroughly enjoyed it.

[smk4565]

On 12/24/2022 at 11:06 AM, oldshurst442 said:

Ford never took the GT to the Nurburgring.  I wonder what times the Carbon Series would do on that track?

 

Ford GT MKIV with 800HP as a final send-off would probably be a fast lapper.  

 

I keep on saying it, I want Corvette to have SEVERAL trims to SPECIALIZE and COMPETE with ALL supercars.  The latest C8 Z06 is a road car.  Its a track beast but it retains TOO much daily driving weight to it and is TOO much of a road going car. The Z06 NEEDS a road legal, but less forgiving daily driver version to be able to beat cars like the Ford GT, or Ferrari 458 Pista and Porsche 911 GT3 RS.   

Or GM could just make a sports car above the Corvette to be more on par with the Ferrari SF90 and McLaren Senna both of which can smoke the 911 GT3 RS or 488 Pista all day long.   The 911 GT3 RS 0-60 time is 50% slower than the Ferrari SF90, the top speed is nearly 30 mph less.  Big gap between the hyper cars and the super cars.

[surreal1272]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Or GM could just make a sports car above the Corvette

Or you could just stop beating this particular dead horse.

 

BTW, that Ferrari wastes most of that near 1000HP with that paltry 590 foot-lbs and for MORE than double the money of said 911. 

 

And why in the hell would GM waste R&D dollars on another ICE sports car that YOU want to be above the Vette (when it is clearly NOT needed) when they are going all EV? At that point, that little Italian trash will be as irrelevant as the horse and buggy. Just stop this stupid crusade of yours already. It's just old, dumb, repetitive, and just beyond any further explanation at this point. 

 

[oldshurst442]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Or GM could just make a sports car above the Corvette

Why would they do that?

THE Corvette could be THAT hyper car.  The many versions of it that Im proposing.   What you are proposing is a death knell to EITHER the Corvette OR GM's next level hypercar that will NOT be called Corvette.  

Talk about waste of resources.  The resources (money and time) of engineering such a hyper car remain the same whether a new hyper car adorns a Corvette badge or not, but the 70 years of Corvette branding goes to shyte by doing this.  Creating a new name, new marketing, new sales angles for both the new hyper car NOT named Corvette and THE Corvette itself could be better put to use on other projects since Corvette has a 70 year built-in name recognition as THE sports car FROM GM.  Better still, the Corvtette is WORLD known as AMERICA's sports car...   

If resources (time and money) are going to be spent on hyper cars, and new marketing and sales angles are to be established for a new hyper car, might as well use that 70 year history of Corvette, but SPIN off Corvette on being its OWN brand and creating a hyper car FOR the NEW Corvette brand.  Then to secure bread and butter sales, create a fast as phoque SUV for the new Corvette brand.  

The Corvette logo 

 and JAKE with Corvette Racing

 

have plenty of brand recognition to pull of a Corvette brand with Corvettes in the GT realm, track realm, hyper car realm and in the fast as phoque  SUV realm.   

Mercedes SL has gone down the route you are proposing.  

The SL was a race car and a GT car only to become a very expensive Ford Thunderbird.

 

The modern Mercedes exotic/hyper cars only last a couple of years of production only selling a couple of thousand.  That works for Mercedes as Mercedes NEVER worked hard enough to put ANY brand recognition on a long production run sports car like a Ferrari Dino/ 308/328/348/F355/360/F430/458/488/F8/SF90

 

The SF90 you are talking about...

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Ferrari SF90 and McLaren Senna both of which can smoke the 911 GT3 RS or 488 Pista all day long

has its lineage IN the 488 Pista you dumb aZZ...   

Its a continuation of... 

Its a succesor to Dino/ 308/328/348/F355/360/F430/458/488/F8

Ferrari has many itenerations of those models each being a tad different from each other specializing in different areas of sports driving.  Different weight savings, different suspensions and suspension tunings and the like for track work or for grand turismo driving.  

Porsche does the same thing for the 911.  The 911 has different eras too. But with Porsche, Porsche has kept the 911 name but chose different chassis designation numbers to differentiate the new successors.  Same for Corvette with C1 and C2 and C4 and C8 but with Chevrolet, only one model does double duty for GT and race track versions.  When a track version comes along, Corvette keeps the GT part of the car IN the track car.  

But...Porsche and Ferrari ALSO produce a LINEAGE of hypercars.  

Porsche started out its first hypercar in the mid-80s based on the 911. Added turbo and AWD which then became a 911 turbo staple.  But the 959 was born which became the Carrera GT.

959/Carerra GT/918  

 

Ferrari though, has a LONG history of mid-engined hypercars and V12 front engined GT cars...  Road cars to sell to finance racing.   succesors upon succesors upon succesors.

Lamborghini ALSO falls in to this category.

Funny you mention McLaren because McLaren ALSO has been following IN the footsteps of Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini.

McLaren has branched out from the F1 in the 1990s and kept lineages and create succesors year after year after year after decade after decade. 

Mercedes is the ONLY one to stop lineages to create new names.  

Only the SL has continued on but the SL today is just a fancy, expensive personal coupe Thunderbird convertible... 

that is NOT what I want Corvette to become...  NOT a Mercedes competitor but an ALL Ferrari/Porsche competitor.  A Ford GT competitor.   Nothing from Mercedes because Mercedes hypercars just become garage queens.  

[ccap41]

The only thing I may do with the Corvette that would be "above" the current one is make one that doesn't accommodate golf clubs in the rear. They could probably utilize 95% of the current vehicle but make it a tad smaller, better proportions, and it would be lighter. I think that little adjustment may make it a tad more dialed in because it definitely wouldn't be considered a GT car, it would ONLY be a sports car.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the current car because it's one bad-a car but I think this would allow them to turn the wick up to 11 on every driving aspect of the car. 

Just a random idea... 

[smk4565]

4 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

Or you could just stop beating this particular dead horse.

 

BTW, that Ferrari wastes most of that near 1000HP with that paltry 590 foot-lbs and for MORE than double the money of said 911. 

 

And why in the hell would GM waste R&D dollars on another ICE sports car that YOU want to be above the Vette (when it is clearly NOT needed) when they are going all EV? At that point, that little Italian trash will be as irrelevant as the horse and buggy. Just stop this stupid crusade of yours already. It's just old, dumb, repetitive, and just beyond any further explanation at this point. 

 

I’ve been saying for years that Cadillac should have a super car above the Corvette, and it makes sense.  
 

And I didn’t say it has to be ICE, it can be electric.  Cadillac could do an EV sports car with carbon fiber body and 1,000+ hp.  Cadillac should be the pinnacle of American engineering, not playing 2nd fiddle to Chevrolet or Watching Tesla become the premier American car company right under their noses.

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

Why would they do that?

THE Corvette could be THAT hyper car.  The many versions of it that Im proposing.   What you are proposing is a death knell to EITHER the Corvette OR GM's next level hypercar that will NOT be called Corvette.  

Talk about waste of resources.  The resources (money and time) of engineering such a hyper car remain the same whether a new hyper car adorns a Corvette badge or not, but the 70 years of Corvette branding goes to shyte by doing this.  Creating a new name, new marketing, new sales angles for both the new hyper car NOT named Corvette and THE Corvette itself could be better put to use on other projects since Corvette has a 70 year built-in name recognition as THE sports car FROM GM.  Better still, the Corvtette is WORLD known as AMERICA's sports car...   

If resources (time and money) are going to be spent on hyper cars, and new marketing and sales angles are to be established for a new hyper car, might as well use that 70 year history of Corvette, but SPIN off Corvette on being its OWN brand and creating a hyper car FOR the NEW Corvette brand.  Then to secure bread and butter sales, create a fast as phoque SUV for the new Corvette brand.  

The Corvette logo 

 and JAKE with Corvette Racing

 

have plenty of brand recognition to pull of a Corvette brand with Corvettes in the GT realm, track realm, hyper car realm and in the fast as phoque  SUV realm.   

Mercedes SL has gone down the route you are proposing.  

The SL was a race car and a GT car only to become a very expensive Ford Thunderbird.

 

The modern Mercedes exotic/hyper cars only last a couple of years of production only selling a couple of thousand.  That works for Mercedes as Mercedes NEVER worked hard enough to put ANY brand recognition on a long production run sports car like a Ferrari Dino/ 308/328/348/F355/360/F430/458/488/F8/SF90

 

The SF90 you are talking about...

has its lineage IN the 488 Pista you dumb aZZ...   

Its a continuation of... 

Its a succesor to Dino/ 308/328/348/F355/360/F430/458/488/F8

Ferrari has many itenerations of those models each being a tad different from each other specializing in different areas of sports driving.  Different weight savings, different suspensions and suspension tunings and the like for track work or for grand turismo driving.  

Porsche does the same thing for the 911.  The 911 has different eras too. But with Porsche, Porsche has kept the 911 name but chose different chassis designation numbers to differentiate the new successors.  Same for Corvette with C1 and C2 and C4 and C8 but with Chevrolet, only one model does double duty for GT and race track versions.  When a track version comes along, Corvette keeps the GT part of the car IN the track car.  

But...Porsche and Ferrari ALSO produce a LINEAGE of hypercars.  

Porsche started out its first hypercar in the mid-80s based on the 911. Added turbo and AWD which then became a 911 turbo staple.  But the 959 was born which became the Carrera GT.

959/Carerra GT/918  

 

Ferrari though, has a LONG history of mid-engined hypercars and V12 front engined GT cars...  Road cars to sell to finance racing.   succesors upon succesors upon succesors.

Lamborghini ALSO falls in to this category.

Funny you mention McLaren because McLaren ALSO has been following IN the footsteps of Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini.

McLaren has branched out from the F1 in the 1990s and kept lineages and create succesors year after year after year after decade after decade. 

Mercedes is the ONLY one to stop lineages to create new names.  

Only the SL has continued on but the SL today is just a fancy, expensive personal coupe Thunderbird convertible... 

that is NOT what I want Corvette to become...  NOT a Mercedes competitor but an ALL Ferrari/Porsche competitor.  A Ford GT competitor.   Nothing from Mercedes because Mercedes hypercars just become garage queens.  

The Corvette isn’t a hyper car, hyper cars are pushing a million dollars and collectible.  You don’t want the Corvette to be a hyper car as that would ruin what it is.  
 

The problem is GM sees the Corvette Zora/ZR1 as the finish line when they should be looking at that as the starting point.  A Cadillac hyper car in base trim could be positioned above the Corvette Zora.  And they could do an AMG One style track monster or a Bugatti Chiron 275 mph exotic, I don’t car which but they should do something that put Cadillac on the map.

 And even the Celestiq is $200,000 less than the Maybach 62 was 15 years ago, but I think only Rolls-Royce can sell a $500,000 sedan or SUV as Mercedes and Bentley haven’t been able to do it, I doubt anyone else can.

[oldshurst442]

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

The only thing I may do with the Corvette that would be "above" the current one is make one that doesn't accommodate golf clubs in the rear. They could probably utilize 95% of the current vehicle but make it a tad smaller, better proportions, and it would be lighter. I think that little adjustment may make it a tad more dialed in because it definitely wouldn't be considered a GT car, it would ONLY be a sports car.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the current car because it's one bad-a car but I think this would allow them to turn the wick up to 11 on every driving aspect of the car. 

Just a random idea... 

 

THAT exactly is what I want too.

What I eluded to when I said this:

On 12/24/2022 at 11:06 AM, oldshurst442 said:

I keep on saying it, I want Corvette to have SEVERAL trims to SPECIALIZE and COMPETE with ALL supercars.  The latest C8 Z06 is a road car.  Its a track beast but it retains TOO much daily driving weight to it and is TOO much of a road going car. The Z06 NEEDS a road legal, but less forgiving daily driver version to be able to beat cars like the Ford GT, or Ferrari 458 Pista and Porsche 911 GT3 RS.   

 

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The Corvette isn’t a hyper car, hyper cars are pushing a million dollars and collectible.  You don’t want the Corvette to be a hyper car as that would ruin what it is.  

yes. exactly. 

57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The problem is GM sees the Corvette Zora/ZR1 as the finish line

Yes. it is the finish line...but...

What @ccap41 said

2 hours ago, ccap41 said:

make one that doesn't accommodate golf clubs in the rear. They could probably utilize 95% of the current vehicle but make it a tad smaller, better proportions, and it would be lighter. I think that little adjustment may make it a tad more dialed in because it definitely wouldn't be considered a GT car, it would ONLY be a sports car.

 And with that kind of Corvette, the price does NOT have to be hypercar priced , but Corvette priced and compete with LaFerraris and Porsche 918s and Ford GTs and be EXACTLY like those cars...

[ccap41]

1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

THAT exactly is what I want too.

What I eluded to when I said this:

 

yes. exactly. 

Yes. it is the finish line...but...

What @ccap41 said

 And with that kind of Corvette, the price does NOT have to be hypercar priced , but Corvette priced and compete with LaFerraris and Porsche 918s and Ford GTs and be EXACTLY like those cars...

Yeah, I'm not picturing a 250-500k car here. I'm picturing something that starts at probably 100k, weighs maybe 300, 400lbs less. It will be a much cleaner body. The aero will be more built in instead of tacked on, like a 911 GT3 or most McLarens. 

[surreal1272]

A lot of wishes and fishes here but the dream of seeing another performance model above the Vette is just that, a dream IMO. We will just skip the fact that GMs possible ace up the sleeve here is a ZR1 that could be 90% of what I see being asked for here (like weight reduction). As stands now though, any performance model above the Vette will still be called a Vette, in one form or another.  

[ccap41]

Oh definitely. What I "asked" for was just a pipedream. I do not expect anything like that to ever come out. I was just thinking aloud. 

[surreal1272]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

Oh definitely. What I "asked" for was just a pipedream. I do not expect anything like that to ever come out. I was just thinking aloud. 

Which I totally get but that didn’t stop someone else here from trying to use your hypothetical as validation for his continued phantom issue where the Vette is concerned. 

[smk4565]

1 hour ago, surreal1272 said:

A lot of wishes and fishes here but the dream of seeing another performance model above the Vette is just that, a dream IMO. We will just skip the fact that GMs possible ace up the sleeve here is a ZR1 that could be 90% of what I see being asked for here (like weight reduction). As stands now though, any performance model above the Vette will still be called a Vette, in one form or another.  

It is and it would be more of an engineering exercise really, probably would not make any money to build a hyper car.  And the Corvette beats any other American or Asian sports car in performance already so not like any of GM’s key rivals are doing it.

All the hyper cars or from Europe, it would be nice for America to build one, but probably not going to happen.

[oldshurst442]

7 hours ago, ccap41 said:

Yeah, I'm not picturing a 250-500k car here. I'm picturing something that starts at probably 100k, weighs maybe 300, 400lbs less. It will be a much cleaner body. The aero will be more built in instead of tacked on, like a 911 GT3 or most McLarens. 

A Corvette VARIANT like what we are saying and wanting, doesn and t even NEED to start as low as 100K.  it could even start at 150 000 and with all kinds of boutique personalizations through the Celestiq program type of deal where GM whould have already set-up the network, a Corvette variant of hypercar magnitude could even end at 200 000. Even kiss and be just shy of 250 000.   

A carbon fibre platform OF the C8 aluminum platform to save THAT much MORE weight....THAT kind of thing does NOT need to be mass produced and only a handfull could be produced.    

In fact, Corvette HAS done something like THAT in the recent past when aluminum frames were a common thing for supercars but carbon fibre frames were still prohibitive and only the most expesive supercars were using that.  Lets not forget that the Ferrari F40 was carbon fibre...anyway...    The C6 Stingray was a STEEL frame but when Chevrolet  introduced the Z06, the Z06 went aluminum.  GM had the frame built by a third party manufacturer.   The ZR1 C6 used  aluminum frame as well.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/corvette-chassis-dave-hills-superior-evolutionary-c6/#:~:text=The Z06 frame is 50,Corvette Bowling Green assembly plant.  

Quote

The Z06 frame is 50 percent stronger in torsional and bending stiffness. The Metalsa Metal Fabricator, in Hopkinsville, Kentucky, manufactured the aluminum frames, and then shipped them to the Corvette Bowling Green assembly plant. 

 

When the C7 arrived, all C7 variants went aluminum.   So Chevrolet has done what Im proposing before.   And by shorting the body just a tad to eliminate the golf bag trunk in the back, and the built-in aero that comes with that, then Corvette goes hypercar with a Corvette type price tag.  Sure, it wont be a Corvette that costs 60 000, but its a Corvette hypercar that only costs 150 000 or so...

 

 

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, surreal1272 said:

A lot of wishes and fishes here but the dream of seeing another performance model above the Vette is just that, a dream IMO. We will just skip the fact that GMs possible ace up the sleeve here is a ZR1 that could be 90% of what I see being asked for here (like weight reduction). As stands now though, any performance model above the Vette will still be called a Vette, in one form or another.  

Weight savings will probably BE in the cards for the ZR1.  More power etc...  But...the damned thing will have a trunk in the back to fit those damned golf bags and a frunk in the front to carry anything else a Corvette owner would want to carry and thus, the ZR1 will be a GT car again.   NOT a bad thing. A VERY VERY good thing.   But like you said, 90% of what @ccap41 and I are saying will be.  We want 100% of what we are saying.  A Corvette that is just NOT a GT car.  A Corvette variant to forego a freakin trunk and frunk so it could be less livable, to be NOT a GT car, and to be a MORE visceral speed machine.  To actually compete with the  less comfy variants of the very same Porsche and Ferrari  GT cars that Porsche and Ferrari have made into PURE track machines   that Corvettes competes with as a GT, but now, Corvette ALSO has a very very UNCOMFORTABLE track variant too...   And a hypercar with NO radio, NO heated and cool seats, no frunk and trunk.  And another hypercar variant WITH a radio and heated and cooled seats and the hypercar that is a shytty daily driver because its a machine, it would cost MORE to buy with LESS equipment because THAT is EXACTLY what Porsche does.  And Porsche succeeds with!!!    THAT is what I want from Corvette!!!  

But you and I know, that will never happen.  

I dont think the Corvette brand thing is going to happen as well.  

But...even Corvette staying the course the way it has been doing for the last 70 years, its still good enough for me!!!  its a helluva machine this C8.  

Im happy to let the hot rodders do what I want Chevrolet to do with the Corvette.  To me, its the same thing!!!

[oldshurst442]

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

It is and it would be more of an engineering exercise

Its a harder engineering exercise to engineer a sports car like the Corvette and a trim like the Z06 to a price point, to mass produce and to sell at a relative affrodable price than it is to engineer a hypercar when the budget of such a thing is sky's the limit.  As much resources as the company in question has to throw at it.

General Motors has a BIGGER budget than Ferrari does.   Chevrolet in turn has a BIGGER budget than Ferrari has. 

Problem is...GM has Cadillac and Buick to think about and their models.  

It be great for Chevroler though, if it could use ALL that monies to spend JUST engineering the Corvette.   Unfortunately for the Corvette, the Corvette needs to share ITS engineering/marketing budget with the OTHER Chevrolet models.

To pitch Corvette unto another brand is just switching the budget dilemna around unto the other brand.  It makes no difference to the Corvette budget who's brand the Corvette will be sold as.  If General Motors allocates a certain amount for the next generation Corvette, it will be the same amount ANYWHERE in the GM family regardless of what brand the Corvette gets sold under...

But...GM/Chevrolet engineers, as you know, do a fantastic job in creating what the Corvette has AWAYS been. Especially vis-a-vis its competition from other makes from other countries.   

Ive said this before.  Id like to see what kind of sports car the other manufactures could do with the same engineering and budgetary constraints the Corvette has to be mass produced, to be sold at the same price levels as the Corvette and to see how they will fare in the quality department, the technology department and the constistancy of performance that the Corvette does model after model, year after year, generation after generation.

We could see.  Porsche has tried that formula SEVERAL times. It has FAILED several times. The 914.  The 944. The 964.  The 928.  

Porsche did succeed with the Boxter/Cayman.  Both it terms of quality, price and performance.  Its mass produced and on price, its the SAME as a Corvette.  Problem is, the Corvette performance wise is more of a 911 competitor.  In  other words, the Corvette kicks the Cayman's ass.  The 911, will sometimes beat the Corvette, but sometimes will lose to a Corvette...  But the Cayman will ALWAYS lose to the Corvette but they cost the same to buy... 

Ferrari just does NOT do Corvette price points.  Thety dont have to.  But Id like to see what kind of car ferrari could produce with the Corvette's contraints.  Not so easy...

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

And the Corvette beats any other American or Asian sports car in performance already so not like any of GM’s key rivals are doing it.

And this is what I was getting at...

But...there is one American car that the Corvette has NOT beaten.  (Not a Tesla)

Not yet at least.  Not until the ZR1 comes out.  

The Ford GT

This one...

 

But...  The Ford GT is a half a million dollar affair.  The ZR1 will be a 120 000 dollar affair.  

5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

All the hyper cars or from Europe, it would be nice for America to build one, but probably not going to happen.

Not ALL hypercars are from Europe...

The Ford GT is a hypercar.   

It was a race car that a handful were built for the road to allow it to race.

Then 40 years later it was built as a ROAD car and it was NEVER raced, but it was built to LOOK like the original race car. 

Then 15-20 years later, Ford built a race car again

Only to use that race car as a road car effectively making that race car turned road car into a hypercar.

 

But there are others... 

 

But...the Corvette hot rodders turn the Corvette INTO a hypercar when they hot rod it.

This particular lady twin turboed her Z06 C8...    Mind you, the Z06 is really NOT a drag car, I hope she didnt phoque with the Z06's suspension track capabilites...   Hopin' she aint phoquin' her LT6 engine either by doing this, but...hot rodders ALWAYS turn their Corvettes into European hypercar killers.  And a hot rodded Corvette will ALWAYS remain a CORVETTE...   It dont matter if its factory or hot rodded, a Corvette is a Corvette.   Part of the 70 year legendary history...  

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by oldshurst442

[smk4565]

45 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Its a harder engineering exercise to engineer a sports car like the Corvette and a trim like the Z06 to a price point, to mass produce and to sell at a relative affrodable price than it is to engineer a hypercar when the budget of such a thing is sky's the limit.  As much resources as the company in question has to throw at it.

General Motors has a BIGGER budget than Ferrari does.   Chevrolet in turn has a BIGGER budget than Ferrari has. 

Problem is...GM has Cadillac and Buick to think about and their models.  

It be great for Chevroler though, if it could use ALL that monies to spend JUST engineering the Corvette.   Unfortunately for the Corvette, the Corvette needs to share ITS engineering/marketing budget with the OTHER Chevrolet models.

To pitch Corvette unto another brand is just switching the budget dilemna around unto the other brand.  It makes no difference to the Corvette budget who's brand the Corvette will be sold as.  If General Motors allocates a certain amount for the next generation Corvette, it will be the same amount ANYWHERE in the GM family regardless of what brand the Corvette gets sold under...

But...GM/Chevrolet engineers, as you know, do a fantastic job in creating what the Corvette has AWAYS been. Especially vis-a-vis its competition from other makes from other countries.   

Ive said this before.  Id like to see what kind of sports car the other manufactures could do with the same engineering and budgetary constraints the Corvette has to be mass produced, to be sold at the same price levels as the Corvette and to see how they will fare in the quality department, the technology department and the constistancy of performance that the Corvette does model after model, year after year, generation after generation.

We could see.  Porsche has tried that formula SEVERAL times. It has FAILED several times. The 914.  The 944. The 964.  The 928.  

Porsche did succeed with the Boxter/Cayman.  Both it terms of quality, price and performance.  Its mass produced and on price, its the SAME as a Corvette.  Problem is, the Corvette performance wise is more of a 911 competitor.  In  other words, the Corvette kicks the Cayman's ass.  The 911, will sometimes beat the Corvette, but sometimes will lose to a Corvette...  But the Cayman will ALWAYS lose to the Corvette but they cost the same to buy... 

Ferrari just does NOT do Corvette price points.  Thety dont have to.  But Id like to see what kind of car ferrari could produce with the Corvette's contraints.  Not so easy...

And this is what I was getting at...

But...there is one American car that the Corvette has NOT beaten.  (Not a Tesla)

Not yet at least.  Not until the ZR1 comes out.  

The Ford GT

This one...

 

But...  The Ford GT is a half a million dollar affair.  The ZR1 will be a 120 000 dollar affair.  

Not ALL hypercars are from Europe...

The Ford GT is a hypercar.   

It was a race car that a handful were built for the road to allow it to race.

Then 40 years later it was built as a ROAD car and it was NEVER raced, but it was built to LOOK like the original race car. 

Then 15-20 years later, Ford built a race car again

Only to use that race car as a road car effectively making that race car turned road car into a hypercar.

 

But there are others... 

 

But...the Corvette hot rodders turn the Corvette INTO a hypercar when they hot rod it.

This particular lady twin turboed her Z06 C8...    Mind you, the Z06 is really NOT a drag car, I hope she didnt phoque with the Z06's suspension track capabilites...   Hopin' she aint phoquin' her LT6 engine either by doing this, but...hot rodders ALWAYS turn their Corvettes into European hypercar killers.  And a hot rodded Corvette will ALWAYS remain a CORVETTE...   It dont matter if its factory or hot rodded, a Corvette is a Corvette.   Part of the 70 year legendary history...  

 

Yes the Corvette is engineered to hit a price point, so that have that covered, but what if there were no price point? 

What if you could take Cadillac Celestiq interior and make a 2 seat coupe out of carbon fiber and put 4 EV motors in it for 1600 hp for example.  Mercedes is working on a 480 hp electric motor that weighs half their current ev motor and they can put 1 at each wheel vs 1 on each axle. So 1,920 hp is possible with the same weight of an EQS dual motor set up.  Cadillac could build that, might cost a million dollars but who cares, you do it just to push the envelope of what's possible.

Bugatti reportedly lost $6 million per car on the Veyron, but Volkswagen still built it knowing they'd lose money just to push the engineering boundaries.  Now they made money on the Chiron.  Just like VW probably lost money on the Phaeton but that work paved the way for the A8, Continental GT and Flying Spur which made money.  GM could make a hyper car that is really pushing 2030s tech and performance that loses money, but puts Cadillac back on the map and that trickles down to other cars 10 years from now.

Correct on the Boxter/Cayman/718 being Corvette price, but not having the same performance, but the Porsche has better build quality than a Cadillac or anything at GM, and better resale value than anything at GM.  Some of that money for the Porsche is going to luxury and build quality, and badge, Porsche vs Chevrolet.   So it depends on what you want, if you just want and at VIR the C8 Z51 runs a 2:49 the 718 GT4 runs a 2:50.3 they aren't that far apart.

I will give the newer Ford GT hyper car status since the price is high and they are more rare than the 2005 version and the GT hits 216 mph.  But using VIR times as a guide the 2017 Ford GT did a 2:43 the 2018 AMG GT R did a 2:43.4 and that isn't a Black Series or Pro.   The McLaren 600LT Spider, 911 GT3, 911 GT3 RS and 911 Turbo S all beat it in the following years.  The Ford GT set the lap record for Car and Driver Lightning lap in 2017, but 10 cars have since passed it, so it had the hyper car performance 5 years ago,  which still makes it a hyper car for its time just like the Ferrari Enzo was 20 years ago.  But I think Ford is done making the GT now anyway.

[oldshurst442]

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but what if there were no price point? 

There will always BE a price point regarding the Corvette.  Corvette is model within the Chevrolet brand within the GM corporate umbrella.  Corvette will ALWAYS be fighting for engineering dollars because its a model amongst the hundreds of models within GM. 

THAT is why Corvette is engineered to a price point. Its business model was defined this way when GM decided to greenlight this project 70 years ago.  THAT is why Corvette sometimes uses Chevrolet Malibu steering wheels...  Looking at the C6 Corvette with the same year Malibu of that time.  But there are plenty of other examples across 70 years to make my point. 

The Corvette's platform is NOT shared with ANY other GM umbrella vehicle to amortize the engineering costs.  But Chevrolet engineers dont skimp on that part.  They dont skimp on the engine engineering either. But at least the engine is amortized through being offered in many other ways to other Chevrolet/GM vehicles and licensed to be used in other race cars across the planet, in kit cars, in crate engines offered by Chevrolet, in the boating industry etc.   

Corvette/Chevrolet engineers cleverly used other methods to make the car handle such as those reverse composite leaf springs that Corvette used from the C4-C7.   It was a cheaper way to do it, it was a great way and a succesful one at that to achieve what Chevrolet needed to achieve but Euro badge snobs shat on that engineering effort...     (This is the kind of things I want to see Ferrari, Porsche, Mercedes and all others try to achieve  when I say what kind of cars these other car makers could produce when making a world class sports car to an engineering price point...) 

Engineering an AMG-ONE with sky's the limit budget and tacking on a million dollar price tag to the machine after its built is a relative easy thing to do.  McLaren done exactly THAT with the F1 in the 1990s.  But they didnt sell too many.   Lexus done THAT with the LFA but didnt sell their 500 units. To this DAY, the LFA has 2-3 models still unsold.   

The Corvette project learned THAT lesson as well in 1953.  They learned that lesson with the C2. The C3 and C4. The C5. The C6 AND the C8.  Corvette was nearly canceled AFTER the C1. AFTER the C3.  AFTER the C4. AFTER the C6.  THAT is why Chevrolet and Corvette have adopted this business model FOR the Corvette.  Its a unique niche that Corvette holds. That Corvette has perfected through 70 years of continuously being sold with the minor execption of missing 1 year. 1983.   Half a year technically.  1 model year more precisely. 

This is why it does NOT matter what brand Corvette is sold under. This dilemna will always exist for Corvette UNLESS Corvette becomes its own brand and sells bread and butter SUVs that are bespoke to Corvette but could help finance some of the engineering costs to share and help with corporate GM.   Kinda like how Porsche is doing it with VAG.  Porsche is part of VAG, but kinda is not. But Porsche solely building 911s, even if 911s became boutique cars and rather expensive but cleverly got owners to fork over MORE money to buy the various variants, the 911 alone was not enough to sustain Porsche. And THAT problem for Porsche existed in the 1970s.  It wasnt until Porsche went with an SUV in the late 1990s/early 2000s that Porsche became sustainable all by itself.   Dont forget, the 911 ALSO shared parts with VAG.    Lamborghini, which is part of VAG, shares parts with Audi...   But its only Corvette that gets shat on because it shares parts with other Chevrolets.  The deal is that Corvette is a freakin' Chevrolet to begin with...

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

What if you could take Cadillac Celestiq interior and make a 2 seat coupe out of carbon fiber and put 4 EV motors in it for 1600 hp for example.

THAT wouyld be a...CORVETTE. 

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 Cadillac could build that, might cost a million dollars but who cares, you do it just to push the envelope of what's possible.

Cadillac could do OTHER things.  Cadillac does not need a sports car.  

Cadillac, Corvette and Oldsmobile were the engineering branches for General Motors. Now that Oldsmobile is no longer around and the brands do not hold as much independancy as they once did, Cadillac AND Corvette showcase what GM could do.  

YOU have to understand that. Its time for you to put what you say aside.   Mercedes is NOT what Cadillac is.  Cadillac is NOT what Mercedes is.

Mercedes is more akin to General Motors in 2023, since the 1970s actually.  Mercedes was Cadillac and Cadillac Mercedes BEFORE WW2.  Cadillac was under the GM umbrella but was independant from GM and other GM brands.  Mercedes and Cadillac were both the ultimate luxury brands in the same realm as Rolls Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Duesenberg and Packard.  During the depression and economic crisis of 1929 and just before the war, some of those brands went away.  After the war, 'twas only Cadillac that truly was the ultimate in luxury.  Rolls, Bentley and Mercedes had to start all over.  

This is where Mercedes became General Motors.  Mercedes went DOWNMARKET.  Mercedes now no longer boutiqued their cars but offered plebiean mass produced econo boxes.   

Cadillac lost its independance from GM when GM decided that ALL GM brands no longer function as independant car brands. When none of the GM engineer their own engines etc.... THAT happened in the 1970s.   

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but the Porsche has better build quality than a Cadillac or anything at GM

 

No they dont.  THAT would be YOUR Euro badge snobbery.  Porsche had HORRID build quality ALL THE WAY until the 2000s.  WORSE than Chevrolet even.   But when Porsche REALLY went high end, this is when Porsche started to engineer quality into their cars. Like I said, THAT heppened in the 2000s.   

Now that Cadillac is FINALLY serious in going high end, for real, their cars too, have great build quality. 

The C8 also reflects this.  

9 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 But using VIR times

nothing concrete there...

The Ford GT is a race car.   Since Ford never took the road version to test it, we shall never know how fast it really is on ANY race track.

BUT...the Ford GT DID win at 24 HRs at Lemans in its class in 2016 over Porsche, Ferrari, Aston Martin, BMW AND Corvette. 

But that is just noise.  ANY track times is just noise. 
Success of a race car/road car sold to the public is not just credibility on how fast it is, but if its succesful in the court of public opinion AND in the market place.  And the Ford GT hits on all those.

The AMG-ONE is NOT a race car.  But...we know its fast. Mercedes tested it on the Nurburgring and shattered the record.  And since Mercedes has a very very long and storied racing history, the AMG-One does not NEED to be a race car to have race cred.  Marketing takes care of that.  Engineering says its Formula One engineered and marketing takes care of the rest.  The AMG-One gets slapped with a 2.72 million dollar price tag and Mercedes sells every single unit.   THAT is a succesful car. 

Lexus with the LFA tries to do the same a decade earlier but fails on MOST of those criteria.  McLaren too with the F1. The F1 actuallu GOES racing and wins Lemans in its class. But is a failure in the market place...  

On a business side of things, there are many ways to engineer a sports car.   If a succesful formula is found by a manufacturer, then it was a great engineering and business venture.   And THAT is how we should view things.

NOT this what you are saying here.  THAT is complete and utter bullshyte what you are saying down below.

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Bugatti reportedly lost $6 million per car on the Veyron, but Volkswagen still built it knowing they'd lose money just to push the engineering boundaries.  Now they made money on the Chiron.  Just like VW probably lost money on the Phaeton but that work paved the way for the A8, Continental GT and Flying Spur which made money.  GM could make a hyper car that is really pushing 2030s tech and performance that loses money, but puts Cadillac back on the map and that trickles down to other cars 10 years from now.

 

The Veyron was an engineering success in that the car was a great performer, but it nearly cost VW its reputation in that engineering such a car and losing money on every car sold lead to VW to cheat in their diesels.  They cheated and got caught and got fined and lost millions more.   NOT a good thing.  A properly engineered car, and a succesful one IN the market place where the car brings IN money for the company and does not BLEED it to death to make crappy decisions later on ELEVATES the company. 

The Veyron made VW make questionable decisions. From the VW Phaeton, to dieselgate to the back and forth struggles of who is to be head of VAG, Porsche or VW.    In-fighting is NOT a good look either...   But Eurosnobbery just looks past that!!!  Right, SMK???!!!

The Chiron finally makes money becsause the platform is 20 years old and Buggatti finally got to sell enough Veyrons/Chirons to finally pay for the engineering. 20 years LATER...    But...I got to say, the engineering on the Veyron WAS almost 20 years ahead of its time.  So there is that too.    But VAG stuck to it.  Its a German thing to stick to failure. Down with the ship and phoque the rest and maybe we will turn it around before the ship sinks and with the Veyron, the ship didnt sink, luckily.  Americans cut their losses right away...  Imagine of GM had kept the Fiero for a 2nd generation and finally done it right?  GM actually did it for the Corvette and look where the Corvette is now?   They were close to canceling the Corvette in the very beginning... 

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

 But I think Ford is done making the GT now anyway.

Kinda like what Mercedes does with their exotic-hyper cars, non?

The Ford GT will return in 10 years from now.  Just like when the AMG-One production run will end in the next year or two. Mercedes will return to that formula 6-7-8, 10 years later with another pet project.  

In the mean time, Porsche, Ferrari, Corvette, and the new comers in McLaren (if they dont go bankrupt) will continue to refine their SF90s, 911s, C8s and unto the new and next generation to continue the bloodline.  

Porsche and Ferrari will continue on as well with their other offerings...

[oldshurst442]

Shelby Cobra comes and goes.  

Dodge Viper comes and goes.  At least with the Viper, it spawned 3 generations.  (I know Dodge likes to say that the Viper is 5 generations, and technically you could say it is 5 generations but technically you could also say its 3 generations too)  

The Acura NSX comes and goes.  Its helped to be tuned by a race car driver, it goes away after 1 generation and a decade long production run.  When the C3 and C4 had that kind of production run, Euro and Japanese badge snobs shat on that....  The NSX comes back a decade later but is feared to go away again...  

The McLaren F1 comes along. Goes away. The company then does another successor somewhat a decade later.  Expands to 1- 2-3 other models. But the company now as we speak is feared to go bankrupt...    Since 2020.  Serious at the beginning of 2022, securing financing here and there during the course of the year including selling off some classic cars in their museums  but becoming more in danger as then year closes to 2023... 

Audi brings out the R8 15 years ago. Shares many things with Lamborghini and their Gallardo or Huracan or whatever.  Both companies spawn a new entry to be Corvette/Ferrari 458 and successors/Porsche 911 competitors.   The Gallardo succesfully goes unto become the Huracana and the Huracan will live on to another successor.  The R8 gets another generation but there might NOT BE a 3rd gen DESPITE its corporate brother being succesful...

The 911, was ALMOST replaced in the 1970s.  It was NOT a successful sports car in the market place.  It had a cult following IN the 1970s, but it was NOT enough.  The replacement was supposed to be the 928.  It WAS a Corvette formula car.  BECAUSE the 911 had a cult following, Porsche stuck around with it selling BOTH the 911 and the 928 side by side.  The saviour of the 911 WAS the 959 that injected new technologies into the car invigorating new interest into the 911 AWAY from such new entries as an NSX or Viper or F355 and Testarossa and even the McLaren F1.  Porsche also done 911 GT2s in the mid-1990s that carried the torch fromm the 959 link to the 911...    But the company Porsche was in dire need of a bread and butter car.  Long story short, the 928 went away.  A decade later, Porsche tries its hand in yet another Corvette business type of venture in the Boxster/Cayman. It succeeds with that BECAUSE Porsche also does SUVs...   

The Corvette at this time was looong in the tooth with the C4.  The ZR1 was NOT a succesful car.  But it survived somehow.  Even if Corvette went unto a C5, BECAUSE the C4 held unto soooo long, the C5 was in danger of being laughed at out of existance. It held on.  It spwaned a C6. Eurobadge snobs laughed at the C6 as much as they laughed at the C5.  They had no reason to. But they did. Corvette nearly died again but a C7 saw the light...   At THIS point in time, Corvette was no longer at the cusp of being a supercar, the other brands had HYPERCARS...   The C7 was a supercar, but Eurosnobs snubbed it for NOT being a hypercar...   The C8 comes along and the same Eurosnobs try to screw with it but they really cant. The C8 really has no faults to discredit it.  There are no Malibu steering wheels to laugh at. No composite reverse leaf springs to denounce.  its even got a flat plane crank V8 producing the MOST horsepower of ANY NATURALLY ASPIRATED V8 before it.  besting Mercedes, Ferrari, Ford, Chrysler, Audi, BMW and every other V8 manufacturer...     Some Eurosnobs cant fathom that and say its a Ferarri copy cat. Some say that because Corvette went that-a-way, that it means that Corvette faithfull are hypocrites because they have defended GM and Corvette to stay pushrod...  RIGHT, SMK???!!!

Yet a pushrod V8 Corvette is STILL offered and is STILL a beast of a machine ALL for JUST 60 000 dollars.  Hot Rodders make THAT pushrodded Corvette into a hypercar killer anyway...   

The Corvette is a testament, despite on the brink of being canceled SEVERAL times in its existence itself, on how difficult it is to be a sports car and live.  The Corvette is 70 years old.  Will a C9 be available?  I could say with 100% CERTAINTY that a C9 WILL be available to us.  BECAUSE the C8 is a success in the market place today. Right now.  But will a C10 be a thing?  Im not so sure... We are not there yet to know.  Its a fragile niche...

Cadillac to spawn a car above a Corvette will just fail. Because it does not have the cred to have such a car.  

Lexus failed.  Acura failed.

Corvette IS such a car to begin with.  

Nothing else needs to be said.

 

[surreal1272]

12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

but what if there were no price point?

And what if dog dung tasted like a cherry sundae?

 

Again, the only one who seems to care is you. No matter how many times the actual point(s) has been made on one thread, you still wash, rinse, and repeat that same non-sense on yet another thread.

[oldshurst442]

The Ford GT does NOT have to be mass produced year after year, decade after decade  to spawn consecutive gebnerations.  Ford has found THE successful formula for a Ford GT to live on in our hearts and our minds and for the car to be successful financially for FoMoCo and BE a HALO car for the brand of Ford.  The Ford GT is to be revisisted every 8-12 years. To be thrown a very high amount of engineering dollars at it to be engineered as best as FoMoCo could, to be designed as elegant and as beautiful as a Ford GT40 ever was.  It could go racing or it doesnt.  Marketing could take care of that.  IF the engineering underneath the skin is race credible, and FoMoCo doesnt give up racing all together, the cred will abays be there for the Ford GT.  IF the skin visually is as pleasing as the original GT40, marketing and our hearts do the rest.  And THAT is the formula it seems for the Ford GT to be succesful and THAT is ALL what is needed for a Ford GT.

A Ford GT is NOT a Corvette.  It shouldnt follow a Corvette formula.  

The Veyron made VAG lose 6 million dollars per car...  

Mercedes has acknowledged that ITS hypercars also follow a Ford GT type of business model.   And THAT is great for Mercedes to follow.  

The original SL was a race car.  Its road going version was sold as a GT car, but with the racing technology intact in the car intact.  And it had GREAT success. It was and continues to BE a HALO car the original Gullwing for Mercedes.  But Mercedes realized quite quickly that for money to be made, the SL HAD to go a different route. And Mercedes found success THAT way for the SL going forward.  

Mercedes quickly found out that pet projects such as the SLR and SLS and the current AMG-ONE could be and ARE a financial success because their history has cred and marketing takes care of the rest and us as enthusiasts keep that close to our hearts and make those projects a success for Mercedes. Although the SLR failed to sell what Mercedes originally thought it could sell.   And...the SLS's platform was rumoured to have been engineered by Dodge and when the merger between Mercedes and Chryco ended, Mercedes just took the platform away from Dodge and THAT is how Mercedes brought out the SLS...

Some black marks there for Mercedes...   

So for @smk4565 to wax poetic about Cadillac doing a super expensive hypercar above Corvette seems kinda foolish when he ignores the failures of even Mercedes to achieve such a thing.

Cadillac does NOT have ANY racecar cred. Although Cadillac does racing now in 2022...today... THAT means NOTHING as even Toyota 'races' its Camry...

 

The connections I have made should be it.  I have nothing else to say about this matter.  

Lets get back to the Z06 C8...

But one more thing...Veyron made VAG LOSE 6 million per car...  Let that sink in for awhile to see how absurd that is and then just look at FoMoCo and how they handled the same endeavour with two different generations of GT Fords within the same time frame... ESPECIALLY with the CURRENT Ford GT...    

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by oldshurst442

[G. David Felt]

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