Dodge News: Dodge Last Call of the Charger/Challenger 2023 product line revealed!

[David]

Dodge had teaser commercials leading up to all 7 limited production Chargers/Challengers for the final 2023 calendar year. Everyone of these cars are street legal even the all new ultimate, more powerful Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170.

Lets get to the meat and potatoes as they say of the Demon 170 straight from their press release.

• 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 reaches 60 mph in just 1.66 seconds and delivers the highest G-force acceleration of any production car at 2.004 gs
• Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 delivers 1,025 total horsepower at 6,500 rpm and 945 Ib.-ft. of torque at 4,200 rpm on E85 ethanol blend
• Demon 170 produces 900 horsepower and 810 lb.-ft. of torque on E10
• Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170, the seventh and final Dodge “Last Call” special-edition vehicle, is history’s first-ever eight-second factory muscle car
• Challenger SRT Demon 170 runs the quarter-mile in an NHRA-certified 8.91 seconds at 151.17 mph
• Producing full performance at the drag strip results in the Challenger SRT Demon 170 receiving an NHRA violation letter “ban” for running a sub-nine-second quarter-mile without a safety cage and parachute
• Red keys only for the Challenger SRT Demon 170 — horsepower output is determined by the percentage of ethanol detected in the fuel
• Extensive component upgrades/features critical to harnessing the 1,025 horsepower include:
  • Modified 3.0-liter supercharger features a larger snout with 105mm throttle body and 3.02-inch pulley
  • All-new driveline includes HIP (Hot Isostatic Pressing) processed housings, larger 240mm ring and pinion, pressure cast new case and new mountings, rear axle housing is 53% stronger with new geometry rear differential housing and featuring Direct Connection logo, larger rear cover-mount fasteners, increased case depth and more
  • Rear prop shaft 30% stronger than original Demon and stronger half shafts designed with larger inner-connecting spline and revised heat treatment
  • 315/50R17 Mickey Thompson ET Street R drag radials — never offered before on a production car — critical to vehicle performance, deliver extra tractive force
  • Patent-pending TransBrake 2.0 includes torque-shaping capability, a technology used in competitive drag racing with easier driver interaction to dial-in preset torque limits
  • Unique Drag Mode suspension provides maximum forward drive and custom race settings for drag calibrations
  • First-ever factory production car built with staggered drag radial tires and fender flares
  • Revised rear suspension for an increased contact patch
• Primary engine power components are completely upgraded — camshaft is the only significant part untouched
• High-flow fuel rail and injectors are capable of providing 164 gallons of fuel per hour, more than the average U.S. shower head
• Features including optional Lacks Enterprises industry-exclusive two-piece lightweight carbon-fiber wheels help Challenger SRT Demon 170 realize weight savings of 157 pounds in comparison to Challenger SRT Hellcat Redeye Widebody
• Removal of front flares generates a weight savings of 16 pounds
• Air-Grabber hood and Air Catcher headlights maximize air intake flow; Air-Grabber hood bezel laser etched with “Alcohol Injected” logo
• Innovative SRT Power Chiller, a purpose-built production car first for the original Demon, diverts the air conditioning system to cool the supercharger intercooler for optimal air intake temperature
• Drive Modes, including an updated Drag Mode, and performance pages provide customizable settings for transmission, suspension, steering and more
• Challenger SRT Demon 170 will be available in 14 exterior color options and carries a unique reworking of the original Demon badge featuring a 170-neck tattoo and new E85 representative yellow Demon’s eye
• Interior adds a yellow and red serialized Demon instrument panel badge with four interior choices, including standard lightweight cloth with driver seat only, optional full cloth interior, premium Black Nappa leather and Alcantara or Demonic Red Laguna leather
• One-of-a-kind owner content includes a commemorative Demon decanter set with personalized and serialized owner information and an available customized Goodwool car shell
• Challenger SRT Demon 170 personalization options through Direct Connection will include harness bar with coordinating lightweight carbon-fiber rear seat delete inserts
• 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 production will be limited to at most 3,300 units, with 3,000 for the U.S. market and 300 for Canada, and with final total based on production capacity
• Challenger SRT Demon 170 will be available at a manufacturer’s suggested retail price (MSRP) of $96,666 (excluding destination and fees)
• Owners of original 2018 Challenger SRT Demon who secure an allocation will be able to match the same vehicle identification number as their original Demon
• Starting today, enthusiasts can view available dealer allocations for the new Challenger SRT Demon 170 via the Dodge Horsepower Locator tool at DodgeGarage.com, with ordering beginning March 27, 2023
• Dealer orders at MSRP will receive priority scheduling
• Challenger SRT Demon 170 opens latest garage door of Dodge brand’s 24-month Never Lift campaign — more information on “Never Lift” available at DodgeGarage.com

The beast of motivation is the 3L supercharger strapped to the Hemi V8 producing 40% more boost over the Challenger Hellcat Redeye Widebody edition. This is just a small part of the mechanical focus that went into building the 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 including:

• Improved Supercharger: Modified 3.0-liter supercharger upgraded with a larger snout with 105mm throttle body, and 3.02-inch pulley increases boost pressure 40% over the Challenger Hellcat Redeye Widebody
• Fueling Horsepower: Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 achieves full horsepower output through high ethanol fuel blends: horsepower levels are determined by sensing the percentage of ethanol fuel content
• Driveline Upgrades: All-new driveline with 240mm ring gear, 53% stronger differential housing using aerospace-grade metals, rear prop shaft 30% stronger and stronger half shafts
• Massive Drag Radials: 315/50R17 Mickey Thompson ET Street R drag radials — never offered before on a production car — and Mickey Thompson 245/55R18 ET Street front tires deliver extra force on the strip or street
• TransBrake 2.0: Patent-pending TransBrake 2.0 provides torque-shaping capability and easier driver interaction to dial-in preset torque limits
• Unique Drag Mode Suspension: Uniquely tuned valves in adaptive-damping shocks provide maximum weight transfer and custom race settings for drag calibrations
• Staggered Widebody Design: First-ever factory production car built with staggered drag radial tires and fender flares

Production is set at 3,000 for the U.S. market and 300 for the Canadian market. MSRP for the Demon 170 is $96,666 excluding destination and fees. Ordering will begin March 27th, 2023 and will close May 15, 2023.

Each motor comes with a special Demon plate.

A special Demon Plate is on the inside of the car under the airvents and they have their own special key fob.

For the Demon 170 to be able to handle the power, Dodge stated the following:

Engine upgrades implemented in the Demon’s rebirth include:

• 3.0L Supercharger: Modified from the Direct Connection Hellephant C170 crate engine supercharger, a 40% increase is achieved in boost pressure, taking the Demon 170 to 21.3psi compared to 15.3psi for the Challenger SRT Hellcat Redeye Widebody, with 30% more airflow
• Supercharger Pulley: The 3.02-inch pulley delivers 14% more overdrive compared to the Hellcat Redeye Widebody and features an updated 2.68 drive ratio
• Fuel Rail/Injectors: High-flow fuel injectors are capable of providing 164 gallons per hour, more than the average U.S. shower head; fast response ethanol sensor is integrated into the fuel injector rail
• 105mm Diameter Throttle Body: Increased throttle body diameter results in 33% higher air-flow volume than the Hellcat Redeye Widebody or 2018 SRT Demon
• Valvetrain: Nitride-coated intake valves and upgraded valve guides and seat materials assist with ethanol compatibility
• Cylinder Head/Clamp Load: Aerospace-specification high-strength steel studs with steel inserts integrated into aluminum cylinder head contribute to a 38% increase in clamping load
• Main Bearing Caps/Clamp Load: Upgraded head and main cap fasteners for increased clamping load capability allow a 44% increase in clamping load compared to the Redeye, with aerospace-specification high-strength steel bolts and billet steel main caps
• Cylinder Pressure: Cylinder pressure is 32% higher than the Hellcat Redeye Widebody, measuring 2,500psi on E85 fuel
• Main Rod/Bearings: Main and rod bearing materials upgraded to copper-lead for increased load capability
• Connecting Rod: Higher-strength connecting rod and improved pin bushing support increased combustion pressure
• Block Machining: Modified machining for head studs and main bearing cap bolts
• Crank Damper: Viscous damper assists in reducing torsional vibration
• Spark Plugs: New spark plugs with lower heat range for optimal combustion with ethanol fuel

This is one of the most advanced engines ever developed as it can run on almost all grades of gas plus Pure Ethanol. It can also sense the mixture of Ethanol and auto adjusts the HP/Torque properly to run optimized on the fuel in the tank.

The Demon 170 engine is also available as the C170 crate motor.

To get the power to the ground, Dodge had to focus on every part of the driveline system and the engine required that the rear prop shaft had to be 30% stronger in the same packaging with a 53% stronger rear axle housing all made out of Aerospace grade metals.

Driveline details:

New driveline components include:

• Rear Prop Shaft: 30% stronger over the 2018 SRT Demon driveshaft and also boasts increased tube diameter, tube wall thickness and larger CV joints
• 240mm Rear Axle: Includes HIP (Hot Isostatic Pressing) processed housings, the first time used in driveline components to eliminate porosity of castings, larger 240mm ring and pinion, new input flange to accommodate larger CV joint, new geometry housing with Direct Connection logo, larger rear cover-mount fasteners, increased case depth and more result in 53% stronger housing
• 43-spline Rear Half Shafts: Inboard and outboard CV joints designed with larger inner-connecting spline and revised heat treatment; interconnecting shaft is upgraded to a larger diameter shaft with larger joint splines and optimized stiffness for acceleration performance

From the Drag Radials that come with the car with P315/50R17 in the rear to the fronts being 245/55R18 ET. All street legal tires from Mickey Thompson.

Demon 170 includs TransBrake 2.0 where the driver can dial in launch, shift points, shift torque settings and more. It will also include the past features  of Line Lock, Launch Control, and Launch Assist.

The Rims are a two-piece carbon-fiber attached to a forged aluminum center. These rims reduce the overall weight of the car by 157 pounds.

Demon Performance Page on the center display allows Drag Mode, Custom Mode and Street Mode Full images of the customizable interface can be seen here with all the released images of the Demon 170.

A final part of the package for each Demon 170 owner is the following:

Each owner will also receive a commemorative Demon decanter set, serialized to the specific owner and vehicle. The set will include:

• A custom Demon-styled decanter with the owner’s name and VIN engraved on the back
• Demon-badged coasters and whiskey cubes
• Rocks glasses
• Demon 170 supercharger badge cover
• Owner name, build number and VIN plate
• Unique Demon 170 illustration on the inside top of the set cover

 A custom instrument panel badge will be included and ordered by the customer after delivery of their SRT Demon 170, adding even more personalization to the SRT Demon 170 experience.
 
A unique Goodwool breathable mesh car shell will be available for purchase and protects the exterior of the Challenger SRT Demon 170 while mimicking the vehicle’s appearance, down to the 3D SRT and Demon 170 logos on the shell. Finishing Touch Auto Spa will serve as the exclusive distributor of the Goodwool Car Shell for the Demon 170.
 
The Challenger SRT Demon 170 will be delivered with a selection of premium car care products from a trusted source, Jay Leno’s Garage. Working with in-house detailers and through years of testing and formulating blends, Jay Leno’s Garage has developed car-care products that are both affordable and easy to use.
 
Additional personalization options for the Challenger SRT Demon 170 will be available through Direct Connection, the Dodge performance parts brand. Direct Connection parts for the Demon 170 will include:

• Challenger SRT Demon 170 street wheel and tire package, providing the highest level of street driving characteristics versus the vehicle’s standard drag radials
• Harness bar with coordinating lightweight carbon-fiber rear seat delete inserts featuring the Dodge Rhombi logo
• Direct Connection Parachute Mounting System

Similar to the original Demon, owners must sign a waiver acknowledging the unique characteristics of the Demon 170 as a purpose-built, street legal production drag car. As with all new Dodge SRT vehicles, the purchase of a Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 allows owners to take part in a one-day SRT Experience class at Radford Racing School, the official high-performance driving school of Dodge//SRT. Additional information on the Radford Racing School is available at DodgeGarage.com.

The 2023 Dodge Challenger SRT Demon 170 is the seventh and final Dodge "Last Call" special-edition model, commemorating the Dodge Challenger and Dodge Charger, which are coming to an end in their current HEMI-engine-powered forms at the end of 2023. Six Dodge "Last Call" models were previously introduced: the Dodge Challenger Shakedown, Dodge Charger Super Bee, Dodge Challenger and Charger Scat Pack Swinger, Dodge Charger King Daytona and Dodge Challenger Black Ghost. 
 
In addition to the seven “Last Call” special-edition models, Dodge is also celebrating its 2023 model lineup by bringing back three beloved heritage exterior colors, B5 Blue, Plum Crazy purple and Sublime green, plus one popular modern color, Destroyer Grey. 2023 Charger and Challenger R/T models will also feature new “345” fender badging, a callout to the 345-cubic-inch HEMI engine under the hood, and all 2023 Dodge Charger and Challenger models will carry a special commemorative “Last Call” underhood plaque.
 
Dodge also launched a new Horsepower Locator online tool to help Brotherhood of Muscle members make the “Last Call” for the model of their choice. The Dodge Horsepower Locator tool, as well as information on the brand's 24-month Never Lift plan, is available at DodgeGarage.com.  

Check out the other versions here:

Dodge is closing the books on what will be one of their most memorable product lineups.

The only question left is, what version are you?

View full article

[smk4565]

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

[David]

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

Nope, they are closing the factory down for conversion to the EV products they will build there, Plant closure is estimated to be between 30 to 60 days. Employees will be called back in specific shifts to learn the new equipment and test the process for assembly of the EVs they will build there. 

I truly think this is a push to maximize dollars due to the down time for conversion to EV assembly. Every plant that has gone through this change has taken longer than expected and I suspect it will be true for Stellantis as well.

[David]

Official, CEO of Dodge just confirmed the ICE Dodge Performance Cars are dead as of Dec 31st 2023 with the new Dodge Banshee Going into production as well as other variations.

Dodge CEO explains why he's killing the brand's V8 muscle cars (msn.com)

[David]

We'll I have to say that I am actually disappointed in DODGE. I feel they should have not given into the Demon past buyers and go with the Demon 170 name. It is just so underwhelming. I honestly think they could have done better.

[smk4565]

What are they going to sell in 2024?  The Banshee is in concept form, although close to production ready, so maybe they they can get it production ready by January.  But do they have the supply chain worked out to actually build at scale?  
 

And Chrysler will be down to just a minivan since they have nothing in the pipeline except the Airflow which is pretty much vaporware at this point.

[David]

27 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

What are they going to sell in 2024?  The Banshee is in concept form, although close to production ready, so maybe they they can get it production ready by January.  But do they have the supply chain worked out to actually build at scale?  
 

And Chrysler will be down to just a minivan since they have nothing in the pipeline except the Airflow which is pretty much vaporware at this point.

I find it amazing that you assume they have nothing ready to go into production. They are retooling the same plant that builds the ICE Charger/Challengers for new Dodge EV cars. Logically it would be assumed that the working Banshee is able to be moved into production and for all we know they have mules of both an EV Charger and Challenger. Chrysler is also supposed to get next year their first EV, the Airflow that will be their first EV on Sale in 2024.

Chrysler Airflow Graphite

Chrysler Portal Concept that they showed is considered a work in progress for an EV minivan.

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT BANSHEE 

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT

Dodge has going on sale this year the Hornet Hybrid in RT and GT versions.

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

I find it amazing that you assume they have nothing ready to go into production. They are retooling the same plant that builds the ICE Charger/Challengers for new Dodge EV cars. Logically it would be assumed that the working Banshee is able to be moved into production and for all we know they have mules of both an EV Charger and Challenger. Chrysler is also supposed to get next year their first EV, the Airflow that will be their first EV on Sale in 2024.

Chrysler Airflow Graphite

Chrysler Portal Concept that they showed is considered a work in progress for an EV minivan.

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT BANSHEE 

Dodge Charger Daytona SRT

Dodge has going on sale this year the Hornet Hybrid in RT and GT versions.

I know they have the Hornet, Alfa Romeos are pretty sales proof, I doubt the Hornet will be any big seller, but at least it is a product in a big segment.  

I get that they have the Daytona/Banshee EV Charger and Airflow in the works, but if the Charger Daytona is 2-door only, that limits sales right off the bat.  And do they actually have the battery capacity to crank these out?

Cadillac sold like 900 Lyrics last year, Hyundai and Kia only managed about 20k Ioniq 5 and EV6 a piece last year, Mach E was about 39k, and all 3 of those about doubled their 2021 numbers as they ramped production.  Dodge and Chrysler might sell 20k EV's combined next year, along with the Durango that already has $5000 cash back offers since it is old as dirt, the Pacifica is slumping and we'll see with the Hornet.  I don't see a lot of sales volume out of Stellantis, who also is killing the Cherokee.  

Not to mention Stellantis dealers seem to be stocking all the high end trims, and carrying Wranglers and Grand Cherokees with $60k price tags at a time with high interest rates (Fed raised them again today) and what most people think is a slowing economy with inflation hitting everything else.

 The buyer pool for $60-100k vehicles is only so big, and the luxury brands are already there, any legacy OEM that abandons the under $45k price tier is basically handing it over to Tesla when the next-gen car arrives.  Tesla Model Y was the #3 selling vehicle in the USA last month, the next gen car will sell better, take the sales crown from the F150, especially after the Cybertruck wrecks the sales of full size trucks.  

[Robert Hall]

I assume the Charger EV will be a low volume novelty though.   Can't imagine the police fleet volume of Chargers going to the EV version.   Definitely going to be interesting to see what comes out in the next year or so.  

5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

 Tesla Model Y was the #3 selling vehicle in the USA last month, the next gen car will sell better, take the sales crown from the F150, especially after the Cybertruck wrecks the sales of full size trucks.  

I can't imagine the Cybertruck will ever be in high production, let alone 'wrecking' the sales of full size trucks...it's just a novelty..no way that garbage will outsell the F150.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Robert Hall

[smk4565]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I assume the Charger EV will be a low volume novelty though.   Can't imagine the police fleet volume of Chargers going to the EV version.   Definitely going to be interesting to see what comes out in the next year or so.  

I can't imagine the Cybertruck will ever be in high production, let alone 'wrecking' the sales of full size trucks...it's just a novelty..no way that garbage will outsell the F150.

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

The next-gen Tesla that is half the cost to build as a current Model 3/Y will outsell the F150. If the Cybertruck over performs or Tesla cuts price of Model Y again, Model Y might surpass the F150.

I think the Charger EV will be low volume, just like the Airflow will be low volume, the Hornet and all Alfa Romeos are low volume, Pacifica and Durango are sinking volume.  Not sure how any of those brands survives without volume because without big economies of scale, EV's are money losers.

[Robert Hall]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

 

The Cybertruck is one body style only, not remotely competitive with the F150.   You actually think there will be a next generation that competes w/ the F150?   I doubt it...they haven't even made a 2nd generation of the Model S.  Tiny company, poor quality, unable to compete w/ real car companies...claiming they will have a product that will outsell the F150 is just fanboy dreamer BS.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Robert Hall

[David]

@smk4565 You really have a hard time looking at the future and seeing how things are changing and growing. EV sales have continued to increase, oil production is pretty much maxed out around the world and society is moving forward with EVs. You quote low sales numbers for Cadillac, Kia, Hyundai and never even mention how low they are for the Germans. 

With that stated, everyone is ramping up as I have stated before especially about battery cell production.

Others here have repeated the same message that GM has stated about Lyriq. They have ramped slowly to ensure World Class Quality. As such, it was slow in 2023. January alone production was over 8,000 per GM and reported by many media outlets. They say the first quarter production numbers will be big. If they truly average 8,000 per month based on January production, that is 24,000 LYRIQs for Q1. I have not seen anyone else, other than Tesla produce in those numbers.

GM Says Cadillac Lyriq Production Is Finally Ramping Up in a Big Way (thedrive.com)

@Robert Hall Dodge has already been working with many police departments as they all move to the Dodge Durango Pursuit SSV SUV. Police officers have in larger and larger numbers preferred an SUV due to the amount of equipment they wear and carry. You can check it out here:

2023 Dodge Durango Pursuit - Stellantis Fleet & Business Solutions

This is why Ford and GM dropped police cars and focused on trucks and SUVs. The gear police carry just cannot be handled as well as in an SUV or truck.

I agree with you that the Tesla Cybertruck will be a Tesla fan novelty item and I do not see it ever replacing the Fords, GM or Rams.

7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

The next-gen Tesla that is half the cost to build as a current Model 3/Y will outsell the F150. If the Cybertruck over performs or Tesla cuts price of Model Y again, Model Y might surpass the F150.

I think the Charger EV will be low volume, just like the Airflow will be low volume, the Hornet and all Alfa Romeos are low volume, Pacifica and Durango are sinking volume.  Not sure how any of those brands survives without volume because without big economies of scale, EV's are money losers.

Sales chart still shows the current trend and the Tesla Cybertruck 1.5 million reservations is Global according to Musk, which you cannot trust as he does not deliver on anything except delays and only a portion.

Nissan is getting out of the full size truck game, so that is gone. I would be willing to say if they produce and sell their 1 trick pony truck in North America for 200,000 to 250,000 across all of North America, including Canada it still will not be much affect as Robert stated, they do not have all the various configurations that the other trucks have.

In regards to the Low EV sales numbers are you basing this on the poor sales of Mercedes to say everyone else will be just like MB. Terrible sales of EVs?

[David]

None of us can really tell how well any EV will sell. When Mercedes-Benz announced their first EV, a certain person said it would outsell everyone else and yet sales have not been that great. They sit on the lots and are taking much longer to sell compared to other brands.

Ford, Kia, Hyundai have stated ramps in building their EVs as they are selling everything they produce. GM is ramping up production to ensure quality and especially as their battery plants come online.

Right now I really cannot say that EVs will sell big or low, other than they will sell and once we have bigger variety and price points, EVs will sell.

[smk4565]

1 minute ago, Robert Hall said:

The Cybertruck is one body style only, not remotely competitive with the F150.   You actually think there will be a next generation that competes w/ the F150?   I doubt it...they haven't even made a 2nd generation of the Model S.  Tiny company, poor quality, unable to compete w/ real car companies...claiming they will have a product that will outsell the F150 is just dreamer BS.

I think the Cybertruck will be more than competitive with the F150 Lightning that is supply constrained and over priced.

By next-gen car, I mean the $25,000 Tesla coming from the Mexico plant, and later other plants.  That is game over for Corolla, Civic, HR-V, Kicks, Trailblazer, Trax, etc.  Elon's goal is 20 million units per year, the world car market is roughly 80 million units per year and not expected to grow, so legacy OEM is going to lose a lot of market share in the next 10 years.

Ford loses $9,000 per EV sold, Tesla makes $9,500 per car.  Ford has an $18,500 cost issue to overcome, that is a big ask.

[smk4565]

9 minutes ago, David said:

@smk4565 You really have a hard time looking at the future and seeing how things are changing and growing. EV sales have continued to increase, oil production is pretty much maxed out around the world and society is moving forward with EVs. You quote low sales numbers for Cadillac, Kia, Hyundai and never even mention how low they are for the Germans. 

With that stated, everyone is ramping up as I have stated before especially about battery cell production.

Others here have repeated the same message that GM has stated about Lyriq. They have ramped slowly to ensure World Class Quality. As such, it was slow in 2023. January alone production was over 8,000 per GM and reported by many media outlets. They say the first quarter production numbers will be big. If they truly average 8,000 per month based on January production, that is 24,000 LYRIQs for Q1. I have not seen anyone else, other than Tesla produce in those numbers.

GM Says Cadillac Lyriq Production Is Finally Ramping Up in a Big Way (thedrive.com)

@Robert Hall Dodge has already been working with many police departments as they all move to the Dodge Durango Pursuit SSV SUV. Police officers have in larger and larger numbers preferred an SUV due to the amount of equipment they wear and carry. You can check it out here:

2023 Dodge Durango Pursuit - Stellantis Fleet & Business Solutions

This is why Ford and GM dropped police cars and focused on trucks and SUVs. The gear police carry just cannot be handled as well as in an SUV or truck.

I agree with you that the Tesla Cybertruck will be a Tesla fan novelty item and I do not see it ever replacing the Fords, GM or Rams.

iD4 sales suck too.  The Taycan and EQS sell quite well for $100,000+ cars.  What Audi, BMW, Mercedes have to do is get their volume level EV's cranking, and essentially covert the 2 million per year ICE sales they had in 2020 to 2 million EV sales in 2030.  But they already took the hit from Tesla, Tesla isn't making more cars aimed at them, they are making cars aimed at the mainstream car brands.  So the German luxury brands will probably be okay there.

I agree it is about scaling up, and Tesla is the only one running at real scale right now.  I see the challenge of the next 10 years not in who builds the best car, it is in who can scale up and produce EV's at a price masses can afford.  Look at an EV6 or Ionic 5, basically $50,000 cars when Kia/Hyundai customers are used to paying $30,000 for a small crossover. The Ioniq 5 should be $30,000, not $50,000, otherwise it is a low volume car, not a volume seller.  If GM can run 300,000 Equinox EV at $30,000 price point, well done to them, that is the sort of thing it will take to survive.

[David]

Just now, smk4565 said:

I think the Cybertruck will be more than competitive with the F150 Lightning that is supply constrained and over priced.

By next-gen car, I mean the $25,000 Tesla coming from the Mexico plant, and later other plants.  That is game over for Corolla, Civic, HR-V, Kicks, Trailblazer, Trax, etc.  Elon's goal is 20 million units per year, the world car market is roughly 80 million units per year and not expected to grow, so legacy OEM is going to lose a lot of market share in the next 10 years.

Ford loses $9,000 per EV sold, Tesla makes $9,500 per car.  Ford has an $18,500 cost issue to overcome, that is a big ask.

Tesla has NEVER delivered on Price and Musk at Investor day already said their focus will be on the top end Cybertruck, a $100,000 truck, so again limited production.

Tesla has talked about a $35,000 Tesla 3 and never delivered in large quantities only to then just stop it all together. A $25,000 Tesla will not be here for years. They have no production capacity for it, Mexico is 2 years away at least and would still need to be fitted with equipment so realistically 3 years if they really do have any test mules which reality is they do not. Only in 2022 did Tesla finally start building Cybertruck test mules. Production is now slated end of 2023. So maybe 2027 if someone can actually keep Tesla on schedule, realistically 2030 based on Tesla past performance of building, testing and production. They still have the Roadster 2.0 that has had no movement on yet.

GM will beat Tesla to market as will many other Legacy OEMs to a low priced EV before Tesla ever delivers.

Show us the proof on the Ford Loss per EV compared to Tesla? Tesla is a Shell game with overpriced stock based on Fan boys. 

Yes Tesla helped finally move the auto industry along to EVs, but Tesla is not the profit center you think it is.

Many up and down stories, but I will go with this one.

Here's Why Tesla Is So Profitable | The Motley Fool

It is a very positive writeup on Tesla profits, but it also ignores one big problem for Tesla. Products built on a long in the Tooth old platform and as other options come onto the market, Tesla will not be growing like they have. 2023 will be a very bigg difference in the EV market.

Musk has preached the BS line of 20 million units a year for years and it will not happen for Tesla. Too many auto companies, too many options for society and Tesla is reaching a point where their CEO will be a hindering problem rather than a positive one as he continues to open mouth and insert foot as he makes thing Political. That will turn off many. It is already showing up with low mileage Tesla on the used market as people trade them in for other EV options.

[David]

4 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

iD4 sales suck too.  

This is a well know supply issue as the ID.4 for the North American Market was all built in Germany and shipped here. Now that their Tennessee plant is up, Q3 and Q4 were records sales of ID.4 in North America and 2023 is expected to be a banner year for VW in EV sales.

This was from an story dated Oct 2022. As they were starting to build and get things going here in the U.S., VW started to hold off sending ID.4 EVs to the U.S. Q3 was the first actual production of ID.4 EVs built in the U.S. 6,657 were built in Q3 2022. Q4 2022 they sold 9,439 ID.4 EVs.

Volkswagen of America (VWoA) reports total year 2022 sales - Volkswagen US Media Site

US: Volkswagen ID.4 Hit New Sales Record In Q3 2022 (insideevs.com)

[oldshurst442]

6 hours ago, David said:

We'll I have to say that I am actually disappointed in DODGE. I feel they should have not given into the Demon past buyers and go with the Demon 170 name. It is just so underwhelming. I honestly think they could have done better.

I too...am DEEPLY dissapoint in the name.   I understand the 'fun' reasons where the 170 number comes from, its just abnormally boring coming from Dodge.    

1. The name is brain numbing boring

2. The reasons beind the name is even worse.   170 ethanol proof???!!!    The phoque???!!!   At least reason #2 is a tad  more exciting as its the code number for the Hellephant crate engine: C170 

But, its the name they chose and so Dodge will sell every Demon 170 they make and truth be told, it seems like any and EVERY Last Call Charger and Challenger will ALREADY have collector car status and most of them are not even built yet.   

[Robert Hall]

I thought the same about the Demon 170 name. So tame.  The Hellcat image is outrageous, the name should be outrageous.   Something like Demon Tire Mutilator, Demon Defecator ( since it sh*ts all over the competition), Demon Dominator…

 

I read that the silver and black 170 they have been showing to the press has been stolen already. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Robert Hall

[oldshurst442]

The only question left is, what version are you?

 

 

I am THIS version!!! 

 

 

But if Im buying a Challenger for myself...I dont want or need a Last Call version.  Nor a Demon.  A regular Hellcat is what I always wanted and that hasnt changed since 2015.  Ill go with a Red-Eye.  

Regular or widebody.   Uniform body colour all the way through or  black hood.  No stripes. Original hood or twin snorkel.  Prefer the twin snorkel hood though.   In those 3 colours.

 

[David]

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall As I watched the Demon 170 reveal, when they gave the Name, the online crowd was so disappointed. So many pointed to the evil little leprechaun they used to tease this car. 

Many thought it would be named using some of the evil Leprechaun names like "Killian" or "Mordecai". Many thought they would use actual Demon names such as "Succubus" or "Incubi".

End result, I am sure there were Legal concerns about the naming of the auto and they already owned the Demon name, but I still feel this is one of the biggest let downs by a auto company after all the buildup.

[Robert Hall]

I still wouldn't mind having a Challenger..though I don't need a Hellcat..the regular R/T or R/T Scat Pack 392 w/ a manual and maybe the wide body would be fine, as long as it's in F8 green or octane red.

Maybe I'll get a CPO or otherwise clean late model one when I get my property plans sorted (got to have more garage space).  Though I do like the 2015+ Mustang quite a bit also.

 

 

[David]

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall

As I sit here working, I started to laugh as the image in my mind formed of a bible thumping individual arriving at Sunday church in their Demon 170, Swinger, Black Ghost, etc.

One can only imagine what would be going through the heads of the people.

🤣

Be interesting to see the final details over the last year of Camaro and what Ford does with the Mustang.

[oldshurst442]

30 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I read that the silver and black 170 they have been showing to the press has been stolen already. 

LOL

Doesnt surprise me.   As much as I have given shyte to Hyundai and Kia for theft problems stemming from corporate idiot decisions, Stellantis (Dodge) should know better to protect the these cars from theft as these cars have been on the hot list since at least 5 years now.   And they still havent done anything to address to curtail some of the theivery done.  Yes...I understand a thief will always find a way, a back door of sorts, but proof that Dodge has done nothing to curtail this problem as theives steal them straight from the dealership.   Not good! 

5 minutes ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall

As I sit here working, I started to laugh as the image in my mind formed of a bible thumping individual arriving at Sunday church in their Demon 170, Swinger, Black Ghost, etc.

One can only imagine what would be going through the heads of the people.

🤣

Be interesting to see the final details over the last year of Camaro and what Ford does with the Mustang.

Bible thumping Republican?  Of Fox News swillin' morons? 

Nothing will arise.

1. hypocrites 

2. too stupid to see the irony

[David]

11 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

LOL

Doesnt surprise me.   As much as I have given shyte to Hyundai and Kia for theft problems stemming from corporate idiot decisions, Stellantis (Dodge) should know better to protect the these cars from theft as these cars have been on the hot list since at least 5 years now.   And they still havent done anything to address to curtail some of the theivery done.  Yes...I understand a thief will always find a way, a back door of sorts, but proof that Dodge has done nothing to curtail this problem as theives steal them straight from the dealership.   Not good! 

Bible thumping Republican?  Of Fox News swillin' morons? 

Nothing will arise.

1. hypocrites 

2. too stupid to see the irony

Too True, So many Hellcats stolen in less than 60 seconds. Latest robbery of 6 from a dealership that had it happen with the last order of Hellcats they had too. Dealership been hit twice with having them all ripped off.

 

[Robert Hall]

I wonder what the deal w/ all the Hellcat thefts is...do they have a particular vulnerability w/ the ignition or locks?   Or are thieves getting smarter and more clever... 

[oldshurst442]

22 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Somehow I feel like there will be 2024 Charger and Challenger models.  And 2025 even if they are just 6 cylinder.  

You are not entirely wrong though...

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasnt debuted yet.  But it will. 

They will put this engine into something and sell it like soon.  Like in 2024 soon.  

[Robert Hall]

5 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

You are not entirely wrong though...

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasnt debuted yet.  But it will. 

They will put this engine into something and sell it like soon.  Like in 2024 soon.  

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

Edited March 22, 2023 by Robert Hall

[David]

17 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I wonder what the deal w/ all the Hellcat thefts is...do they have a particular vulnerability w/ the ignition or locks?   Or are thieves getting smarter and more clever... 

Based on local news, it would seem they had knowledge of the dealership's security system. Speeds were exceeding 180 mph.

Thieves steal 6 cars from Somerset dealership, 1 arrested | whas11.com

This has been going on for years as this was from 2021. Seems these theives have figured out a black box that allows them to not have the keys and start and steal the cars.

 

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

Will be interesting to see if they do use the inline 6 motor and build at another plant as the core plant that builds all the Chargers/Challengers, all models is closing down for conversion to EVs.

[David]

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @trinacriabob @riviera74

Check out what the Hellcat can do on the German Autobahn.

 

[smk4565]

3 hours ago, David said:

@smk4565 

Sales chart still shows the current trend and the Tesla Cybertruck 1.5 million reservations is Global according to Musk, which you cannot trust as he does not deliver on anything except delays and only a portion.

Nissan is getting out of the full size truck game, so that is gone. I would be willing to say if they produce and sell their 1 trick pony truck in North America for 200,000 to 250,000 across all of North America, including Canada it still will not be much affect as Robert stated, they do not have all the various configurations that the other trucks have.

In regards to the Low EV sales numbers are you basing this on the poor sales of Mercedes to say everyone else will be just like MB. Terrible sales of EVs?

So Cybertruck could take 10-15% of that market, I think that is pretty reasonable.  That still puts the F150 to about 600k units a year, the Model Y could pass that.

Mercedes EV sales aren't poor, the EQS is the only one that was on sale all last year, it is the #2 selling vehicle over $100,000 ICE or EV and it is only #2 because Mercedes makes the #1 seller.  The EQS outsold the Taycan, the 911, even outsold the Cadillac CT4 that is 1/3rd the price.  Mercedes too though needs to ramp up more production and they need the smaller size EVs because the volume lives there, not with a $125,000 sedan.  

And my point is not about low EV sales, it is more about profitability of EV sales, which these low volume producers don't make any money.  And my other point is Tesla hasn't hit the mainstream price yet, once you can get a Tesla for the same price as an ICE Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai/etc and then get a tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, less depreciation, a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.  That is game over for the legacy OEM's.

[oldshurst442]

3 hours ago, Robert Hall said:

I do wonder if the Charger and Challenger will continue.  It hasn’t been clear to me if 2023 is just the end of the Hellcat models or the end of the current Charger and Challenger generation completely.  They are being quiet about that unless I’ve misunderstood. 

I hope they do use it in cars.  I assume Ram will get it for trucks and Jeep will use it elsewhere.  

I have the same thoughts as you do.  Nothing is clear about what actually happens to the Charger and Challenger.  Im also under the impression that only the V8s are gone.  I think the inline 6 will be the last gasoline engine to power Stellantis vehicles in North America until Stellantis in North America goes all EV.   And that includes the Alfa Romeos both SUVs and the Quadrofolio sedan.   

Although I miss the V8s in the Mopar muscle cars already (and they are not gone just yet...), I am curious to see what kind of Challenger (andCharger) that inline 6 will make them into.  Although Id prefer a lighter new platform Challenger (same size though) for the inline 6 to power, I am down with an inline 6 to them.  And I agree with @smk4565.  I dont think they are truly gone just yet.  And like how he says it...as 6 cylinder models.  

[oldshurst442]

1 hour ago, David said:

@oldshurst442 @Robert Hall @ccap41 @surreal1272 @Drew Dowdell @trinacriabob @riviera74

Check out what the Hellcat can do on the German Autobahn.

 

Feels right at home, doesnt it???!!!    Not forgetting its got German ancestry...   Id say the ONLY good thing to come out of that merger is that we eventually got the Challenger, Charger and Chrysler 300 from Mercedes.  Not forgetting the Magnum wagon.      

I often think about what it be like if the 300 got Hellcatted and the Magnum as well!.  

Id rock a Magnum Hellcat with a current gen Charger front end!

Id definetely trade in my TL for a Hellcat 300 and to hell with Quebec gasoline prices.  Id sell a kidney to finance the gas for one. LOL  

[oldshurst442]

 

Id go for the original Hellcat hood.  All black.  Just 6 chromed Hellcat logos.   1 on each side of the front fenders and 4 on the wheels. The center caps. The mags from the original Chalenger Hellcat.  Black mags.   Wide body.  And when I say all balck...I mean all black. Just the Hellcat logos are to be shiny and blingy chrome. That is it.  

Edited March 23, 2023 by oldshurst442

[Robert Hall]

1 minute ago, oldshurst442 said:

 

Id go for the original Hellcat hood.  All black.  Just 6 chromed Hellcat logos.   1 on each side of the front fenders and 4 on the wheels. The center caps.  That is it.  

Those are in the style of the Charger Hellcat.  I’d go for a super subtle Hellcat 300 styled like the 300C SRT back in 2013.    Black or dark gray, low key trim, lots of power.  

[oldshurst442]

2 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Those are in the style of the Charger Hellcat.  I’d go for a super subtle Hellcat 300 styled like the 300C SRT back in 2013.    Black or dark gray, low key trim, lots of power.  

Subtle is a nice way to go.  Especially the way the 300C SRT8 was in 2013.  I agree!!!

With me though, Id like to flash a little bit of the wild side.   

[Robert Hall]

2 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

Subtle is a nice way to go.  Especially the way the 300C SRT8 was in 2013.  I agree!!!

With me though, Id like to flash a little bit of the wild side.   

I get that.  There is a place for everything.   
I saw a pic of a dark green CT5-v recently.  Love the muscle car in a tuxedo sport sedan style.  

[David]

7 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

I get that.  There is a place for everything.   
I saw a pic of a dark green CT5-v recently.  Love the muscle car in a tuxedo sport sedan style.  

Robert you talking about this OEM color that they had on the 2020 CT5-V?

[Robert Hall]

4 minutes ago, David said:

Robert you talking about this OEM color that they had on the 2020 CT5-V?

Yes, love that color.  Haven’t seen one in person yet.  

[David]

4 minutes ago, Robert Hall said:

Yes, love that color.  Haven’t seen one in person yet.  

I have and would love that Metallic Green on an Escalade. It is deep, rich and just beautiful. Great Green color, I am surprised that Cadillac does not offer it on the LYRIQ.

[surreal1272]

10 hours ago, smk4565 said:

So Cybertruck could take 10-15% of that market, I think that is pretty reasonable.  That still puts the F150 to about 600k units a year, the Model Y could pass that.

Mercedes EV sales aren't poor, the EQS is the only one that was on sale all last year, it is the #2 selling vehicle over $100,000 ICE or EV and it is only #2 because Mercedes makes the #1 seller.  The EQS outsold the Taycan, the 911, even outsold the Cadillac CT4 that is 1/3rd the price.  Mercedes too though needs to ramp up more production and they need the smaller size EVs because the volume lives there, not with a $125,000 sedan.  

And my point is not about low EV sales, it is more about profitability of EV sales, which these low volume producers don't make any money.  And my other point is Tesla hasn't hit the mainstream price yet, once you can get a Tesla for the same price as an ICE Chevy/Ford/Toyota/Hyundai/etc and then get a tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, less depreciation, a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.  That is game over for the legacy OEM's.

I see some dipped their whole head into the devils lettuces before they posted this, with the coup de grace being "a Tesla becomes cheaper than owning a Corolla.".

 

BTW, I think I will compare Escalade sales to Sprinter van sales, while we are it. Or how about Ford F-150 sales against Mercedes Benz EQE (in the same vain as your asinine EQS to CT4 sales comparison)? That sounds about right, doesn't it?

 

Just pure fanboy nonsense SMK. Sorry.

Edited March 23, 2023 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

For some reason, I just don't give a sht about this car. EVs, 911 Turbos and such cars have made me care less about insane quarter mile times. Cars that can make insane passes AND do other things are cool but, this doesn't do anything for me. 

For a one-trick pony, I'm sure one could get this performance with a GT500 with slicks, a pulley, and a tune and it can also take corners and stop. Probably damn close with a ZL1, as well. Heck, probably a Hellcat Redeye, too. 

Yeah, yeah yeah, modded VS stock... but this is one very expensive one-trick pony. 

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

1.5 million reservations for Cybertruck, but lets say in reality they sell 200-250,000 per year, that still steals maybe 50k each from Ford, GM and Ram, maybe a few from Toyota and a few new truck buyers.  It still disrupts.

I cannot imagine them selling 200-250k vehicles for more than one year, when it's hot and new. Once the novelty wears off, it just doesn't come off as a truck that can sell a quarter million units a year, consistently. 

Knowing their Model X pricing, starting at $99,990., I can't imagine a truck will be much less. I know Elon claimed 40k or whatnot, but this won't be had for under 100k for awhile. 

There are so many details we don't have on this hypothetical truck yet that it's tough to say anything about it. Ford will have a 2nd gen Lightning by the time this is out and both Ram and GM will have theirs in customers' hands already. So yeah, it may take some sales back but by being so damn late, they'll already have lost hundreds of thousands of sales to the D3. 

[David]

1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

I cannot imagine them selling 200-250k vehicles for more than one year, when it's hot and new. Once the novelty wears off, it just doesn't come off as a truck that can sell a quarter million units a year, consistently. 

Knowing their Model X pricing, starting at $99,990., I can't imagine a truck will be much less. I know Elon claimed 40k or whatnot, but this won't be had for under 100k for awhile. 

There are so many details we don't have on this hypothetical truck yet that it's tough to say anything about it. Ford will have a 2nd gen Lightning by the time this is out and both Ram and GM will have theirs in customers' hands already. So yeah, it may take some sales back but by being so damn late, they'll already have lost hundreds of thousands of sales to the D3. 

Totally agree and as I posted in my response to him above, Musk at the investors day meeting said they would be focusing on the top end Cybertruck first, a truck that is 6 figures. So they will not if ever have a common persons truck like Ford, GM or Ram.

[ccap41]

15 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

Stellantis has this new inline 6...   Brand new.  It hasn't debuted yet.  But it will.

It's in the Grand Wagoneer already, maybe the Wagoneer, as well. 

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2023-jeep-wagoneer-l-hurricane-i-6-first-test-review/

 

[ccap41]

9 minutes ago, David said:

Totally agree and as I posted in my response to him above, Musk at the investors day meeting said they would be focusing on the top end Cybertruck first, a truck that is 6 figures. So they will not if ever have a common persons truck like Ford, GM or Ram.

Exactly, and we all understand why. Most companies do the same thing. 

I don't foresee a 40k Cybertruck ever though. That was announced like 5 years ago and inflation has been insane. I could guess a 50k work truck version may possibly be a thing...but I'm not too confident in that either. This will be a 100k vehicle and they're not selling 200-250,000 $100k of these a year. Nobody has sales like that. Nothing could possibly have demand like that. 

[smk4565]

12 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

I have the same thoughts as you do.  Nothing is clear about what actually happens to the Charger and Challenger.  Im also under the impression that only the V8s are gone.  I think the inline 6 will be the last gasoline engine to power Stellantis vehicles in North America until Stellantis in North America goes all EV.   And that includes the Alfa Romeos both SUVs and the Quadrofolio sedan.   

Although I miss the V8s in the Mopar muscle cars already (and they are not gone just yet...), I am curious to see what kind of Challenger (andCharger) that inline 6 will make them into.  Although Id prefer a lighter new platform Challenger (same size though) for the inline 6 to power, I am down with an inline 6 to them.  And I agree with @smk4565.  I dont think they are truly gone just yet.  And like how he says it...as 6 cylinder models.  

They can sell Pentastar V6, Charger, Challenger, 300 for a couple more years easily.  Well they can easily keep them around, might take cash back deals to actually sell them,  

If they plan to keep the LH cars around a while they could put the inline 6 in, I assume that will take some engineering dollars that they may not want to spend.  But if they want to, they could sell a 500 hp inline 6 SRT Charger and slap some hurricane stickers on it and they could be selling SRT “last call” Challengers in 2027.

[smk4565]

18 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

Exactly, and we all understand why. Most companies do the same thing. 

I don't foresee a 40k Cybertruck ever though. That was announced like 5 years ago and inflation has been insane. I could guess a 50k work truck version may possibly be a thing...but I'm not too confident in that either. This will be a 100k vehicle and they're not selling 200-250,000 $100k of these a year. Nobody has sales like that. Nothing could possibly have demand like that. 

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

[surreal1272]

30 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

"If...if...if"

 

We have been hearing that about the Cybertruck for what...three years now? 

 

And your price point argument ignores a couple of things. First, the Cybertruck will not be even $50K, as it has already been pointed out. Second, while the D3 have pushed their tuck towards higher price points, $80K trucks are not even close to their volume and they start at around $15K LESS then this hypothetical $50K entry price of the Cybertruck. Two words for you regarding the D3 volume movers. "Work" and "truck". Third, the loan rate talk applies to Tesla as well so, how exactly does that help them get to that magical 200K number?

 

This is not even close to a legitimate comparison (in regards to sales volume and price points) and you know that but you have been pushing this "if, if, if" nonsense for so long, regarding the Cybertruck, that it just like Elons claims over the last three years. Just empty words and white noise. 

Edited March 23, 2023 by surreal1272

[ccap41]

25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

It has to be around $50k to start to get the 200,000 volume I think.  That’s the magic number because we see how GM, Ford and Ram pushed truck prices to 60, 70, 80 thousand and now these trucks are stuck on dealer lots.  A $60k loan at 6.5% is about $1100 a month for 6 years.  Then add gas, maintenance, insurance, it is like $1500 a month to drive a new pick up. Not going to be a huge buyer pool if they keep pushing prices and interest rates stay high.  
 

If Tesla is priced like an ICE truck with $7500 tax credit, no gas, limited maintenance, better resale value then there is a big cost savings for the Tesla.

You can't ACTUALLY believe they'll be selling 50k trucks though, right? 

Just the mass/size alone and a stainless steel body will bring their costs well above a Model 3. A Model 3 with AWD starts at 53k. 

I just cannot fathom how this could be priced in the 50k price range. Maybe their complete base model(that likely will only be on sale for a few months, like the 35k Model 3) will be shown for 50k. But, everybody and their brother knows this thing will not be a 50k truck once you add AWD (because it's a truck and I'd wager 90% of orders will be AWD) and a battery to go 300 miles or more. 

"At the event in Los Angeles, Tesla CEO Elon Musk announced that the new Cybertruck will start at $39,900 before incentives, but there will be two more AWD variations that will start at $49,900 and $69,900 respectively." 

That's a quote from who knows how long ago but it was supposed to be on sale in 2021, then 2022. It's 2023. It's supposed to start production this year...but we'll have to see what ACTUALLY happens here.