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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    GM Seeks An Exemption To Exclude Buick Envision from Tariffs

      That 25 percent tariff could really hurt the Envision

    The Buick Envision finds itself in a tough spot. General Motors has been exporting the model to the U.S. since 2016. But with the on-going trade-war between the U.S. and China, it means the Envision could smacked with a 25% percent tariff. That is why GM is asking for exemption on the model.

    In a statement provided to Reuters, GM said that it filed the exemption request on July 30th to the U.S. Trade Representative. In the request, GM makes some sound arguments as to why the Envision should be excluded.

    Price is major factor. If the vehicle is hit with a 25 percent tariff, GM would be forced to pull it from the U.S. unless it wants to a take serious loss on each model.

    Why not build it here? The Envision has been a target of critics of Chinese-made goods, including leaders of UAW. GM explains that the sales volume of the Envision doesn't justify moving it to the U.S. Last year, Buick only sold 41,040 Envisions in the U.S. In China, Buick moved about 210,000 models. In addition, the current Envision is reaching the end of its current lifecycle before the company could make the preparations to build the model here.

    GM also makes the argument that the loss of the Envision would put them in a distinct disadvantage against foreign competitors such as Acura and Volvo.

    You can check out GM's request on regulations.gov website, which is tracking requests for exclusions from the Section 301 tariff.

    If the Envision does get hit with a 25 percent tariff, GM has already taken some steps to relieve some of the pain. Before the higher import tariffs went into affect, GM shipped in a six-month supply of Envisions that would be hit with the much smaller 2.5 percent tariff. This should keep dealers happy in terms of stock and not having to deal with a higher price. 

    Source: ReutersRegulations.gov



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    Thank you GM for thinking ahead and bringing in a supply while this stupidity of Tariffs gets sorted out. 

    Edited by Drew Dowdell
    Removed political comments
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    No, No, No.  If there are 25% tariffs then it should punish GM just as much as it punishes Toyota or Honda.  First off I believe there should be no tariffs on anything, but if there is a 25% tariff then everyone should get screwed.

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    This same company got bailed out by taxpayers, is now rewarded with the Trump tax cuts.

     

    The Envision is pathetic and the competition is light years ahead. I know what you would say to that @dfelt

     

    Tax that thing out of existence I say, it’s a burden on our society and here’s the case where an import tax will ensure that the domestic make isn’t being incentivized to be mediocre cause it’s protected.

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    11 minutes ago, Suaviloquent said:

    This same company got bailed out by taxpayers, is now rewarded with the Trump tax cuts.

     

    The Envision is pathetic and the competition is light years ahead. I know what you would say to that @dfelt

     

    Tax that thing out of existence I say, it’s a burden on our society and here’s the case where an import tax will ensure that the domestic make isn’t being incentivized to be mediocre cause it’s protected.

    WOW, You make me have to question if you have really ever been in an Envision. They are NOT mediocre to the competition. Way better than most.

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    Somebody needs to tell @Suaviloquent that without China, Buick is as dead as Olsdmobile since 2004. 

    While imposing a 25% tariff on Chinese goods is bad policy, China is NOT going to defend America's IP with any consistency.  An open market for any particular good ensures competition actually improves product, as opposed to protectionism which maximizes mediocrity.  Why would China ever change its policies to compete in a global market based of accepted rules rather than pursue the mercantilism that has pulled them from the abject poverty of 40 years ago?  The only mistake GM made is to build the Envision and the Encore in or near their largest market.  No one anticipated the tariff escalation tit-for-tat that has come from this president.

    If you wish to buy a midsize (now compact) crossover NOT made in China, buy an Equinox or a Terrain (made in CANADA), or better still a Cadillac XT5 (Spring Hill, TN).

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    I actually have nothing against Buick, it’s just that the Envision is class average at best. It’s comparable to a Lexus NX. That’s faint praise if any. 

    I’d much rather get an XT5. Not that much more expensive but you just get a much better auto.

    but it truly is nowhere in the league of GLC 300 or RDx or XT5. But yeah you can crow how at 25% off MSRP or 84 month notes it’s a steal. That’s fine. 

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    GM is getting what it deserves.  Build it here, you morons.  The only thing "idiotic" is the idea that a Buick should be built anywhere else but the USA.  Or at least North America... at the VERY LEAST.

    Yes, the Buick Envision is a completely invisible product with no design flair, nothing at all special to distinguish it as a Buick... it is a cheap Chinese knock-off of a "Buick" and I said that from the moment I saw it.

    Also I GUARANTEE you that between its forgettable design and execution, PLUS the fact it is widely known to be an "All-American" Buick made in CHINA are YUGE reasons why it is not selling well.  Duh.

    Edited by ocnblu
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    2 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    GM is getting what it deserves.  Build it here, you morons.  The only thing "idiotic" is the idea that a Buick should be built anywhere else but the USA.  Or at least North America... at the VERY LEAST.

    Yes, the Buick Envision is a completely invisible product with no design flair, nothing at all special to distinguish it as a Buick... it is a cheap Chinese knock-off of a "Buick" and I said that from the moment I saw it.

    Also I GUARANTEE you that between its forgettable design and execution, PLUS the fact it is widely known to be an "All-American" Buick made in CHINA are YUGE reasons why it is not selling well.  Duh.

    That ignores reality. Three out of every four Buicks sold are sold in China. It makes more sense to build all of them there and import them to the US. That's the basic premise of build it where you sell it.

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    2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    That ignores reality. Three out of every four Buicks sold are sold in China. It makes more sense to build all of them there and import them to the US. That's the basic premise of build it where you sell it.

    Well then, Obama's team should have "leveraged" GM to kill Buick and let Pontiac live.

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    4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Also I GUARANTEE you that between its forgettable design and execution, PLUS the fact it is widely known to be an "All-American" Buick made in CHINA are YUGE reasons why it is not selling well.  Duh.

    There is actually a bigger reason. Allow me to pull some quotes from Reuters.

    Quote

    “The previous price point was too high” on the 2018 Envision, said Casey Clark, sales manager at Serra Buick GMC Cadillac in Washington, Michigan, in an interview. “That put off some customers.”

    Quote

    GM had lowered prices by as much as $2,500 on the 2019 models, which it started shipping in late April. That means Buick’s 2,000 U.S. dealers should have lower-priced Envisions to sell well into the fall.

     

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    11 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Well then, Obama's team should have "leveraged" GM to kill Buick and let Pontiac live.

    And right there is the reason you're not CEO.

    Pontiac, at the time, was not global. It offered little to nothing over a Chevy or Toyota. It was entirely GMs fault for letting it get there, but that was still the reality of the situation at the time. There totally should have been a new Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, heck even a new Vibe, Torrent, and a real honest to goodness crossover Montana... But there was no money. 

    Buick had sales both here and in China, Pontiac did not and the sales here just weren't profitable.  

    Trust me, I know how you feel. Olds was the most technically advanced division outside of Cadillac at the time of its demise. But if sales and profitability aren't there, gotta be a businessman and make the tough call. 

     

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    On 8/3/2018 at 6:07 PM, dfelt said:

    WOW, You make me have to question if you have really ever been in an Envision. They are NOT mediocre to the competition. Way better than most.

    The Envision is a good vehicle, the MSRP's are far too ambitious, but just if you judge it as a Buick its pretty good.

    Buick has been kept alive here because of China, and GM benefits from selling mondo vehicles in China.  It's not unrealistic to expect them here to import something from China....

    IF

    they export from the US to China too.....

    Buick doesn't need to sell more than 40,000 Envisions because they shouldn't be playing so much in the compact class anyways with the Terrain in the showroom and the Enclave being what most Buick buyers are really looking for anyways.  Buick should have an Edge competitor, like the Enspire concept to compete with Lexus RX etc.  Buick needs to add models to gain US volume more than it needs to have more than 40,000 Envisions.

    I'm not one for big auto tariffs but overall China benefits a lot more from our trade than we do from theirs.  That's not any kind of endorsement for anyone's trade strategy.  It should be noted that GM is more and more shifting their production of a lot of US sold vehicles to be made across the world.  Gradually and sneakily since the 2009 era they keep moving production to other countries.

    Biggest challenge for the Buick products is to determine global design.  The Envision looks like a 2012 retread (the 2019 updates do clean it up some) and with the Opel deal gone, Buick may have to decide if they are committed to producing any of these white space vehicles in the US the next model cycles...... IMO for example the Regal should be revised to be made on the same line as the Malibu since they are bed buddies.

    What else is kind of interesting, the Envision doesn't seem like it's been here long, and there are not many of them out there.  But already now they have established 4 separate model years of the vehicle here in the states.  Pretty crazy.  That is how the import brands establish a model, sneak it into the market and build the nameplate brand.  So now it is becoming an established nameplate for Buick and building the Envision brand name.  Shoppers now will be more confident buying the nameplate because its been around 'for awhile'.

    Edited by regfootball

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    12 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Well then, Obama's team should have "leveraged" GM to kill Buick and let Pontiac live.

    Then Pontiac would have also been selling 1.4 and 1.5 litre turbo cars too, to bow to the gods of CAFE like Chevy has had to.  Lots of CVT equipped next ever G6's......

    May have been best that Pontiac was let to die rather than the 'first ever G2' crossover....... or more Vibes

    Edited by regfootball
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    12 hours ago, William Maley said:

    There is actually a bigger reason. Allow me to pull some quotes from Reuters.

     

    GM's strategy on everything the last few years and surely for awhile back even now is to pump up the MSRP's to ridiculous levels compared to the competition and incentivize the hell out of them.  Gives the marketing types a reason to keep their jobs, keep changing the incentives twice a month, between regions.  They can sit and look at sales spreadsheets on their office computer screens while they sip their mochas.  "Oh this month we need to move the GMC Sierras!". and then 'all Sierras 22% off MSRP!'  And the other models sit and rot on the lots until they get their turn at special month of incentives.

     

    3 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    And right there is the reason you're not CEO.

    Pontiac, at the time, was not global. It offered little to nothing over a Chevy or Toyota. It was entirely GMs fault for letting it get there, but that was still the reality of the situation at the time. There totally should have been a new Bonneville, Grand Prix, Grand Am, heck even a new Vibe, Torrent, and a real honest to goodness crossover Montana... But there was no money. 

    Buick had sales both here and in China, Pontiac did not and the sales here just weren't profitable.  

    Trust me, I know how you feel. Olds was the most technically advanced division outside of Cadillac at the time of its demise. But if sales and profitability aren't there, gotta be a businessman and make the tough call. 

     

    The way Cadillac is going, it may be the next to go, and then we will be glad that Buick is the last remaining premium GM car brand.....because of how well Buick does in China.

     

    Edited by regfootball
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    20 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    GM's strategy on everything the last few years and surely for awhile back even now is to pump up the MSRP's to ridiculous levels compared to the competition and incentivize the hell out of them.  Gives the marketing types a reason to keep their jobs, keep changing the incentives twice a month, between regions.  They can sit and look at sales spreadsheets on their office computer screens while they sip their mochas.  "Oh this month we need to move the GMC Sierras!". and then 'all Sierras 22% off MSRP!'  And the other models sit and rot on the lots until they get their turn at special month of incentives.

    Pretty wild theory- have a list handy that illustrates that?

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    I personally doubt that Cadillac will actually disappear at all, unless GM itself goes under.  Only exception to that rule would probably be the Corvette.

    As for raising MSRPs and then creating incentives, GM has not backslid to the "move the metal" era that led to BK nine years ago.  I agree that the whole "incentive a month" plan is long-term stupid and that needs to actually end, especially since we have reached peak auto sales in the last two years.  As long as ATPs are up and stay up, profits and cash flow will follow.  Of course, GM will have to trim back production somewhat so that the specter of "move the metal" does not return with a vengeance.

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    19 hours ago, William Maley said:

    There is actually a bigger reason. Allow me to pull some quotes from Reuters.

     

    OK your point is taken.  We will see if this pricing strategy makes the Envision suddenly appear on customer radar despite its hypocritical manufacturing point and its entirely boring design.  They did the same thing with the South Korea made Encore (South Korea being a bit less scary than China).  Did Encore sales discernibly uptick at the moment the prices were dropped, or have they been on a steady uptick that cannot be attributed to a price drop?

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    Pricing on the Envision is still too high.  It's hard to make a good case for it when the Terrain sits in the same lot and has a better base powertrain while feeling roomier.  I'm a Buick guy and I'd still probably pick a Terrain Denali over an Envision due to the pricing of Envision.

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    7 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    OK your point is taken.  We will see if this pricing strategy makes the Envision suddenly appear on customer radar despite its hypocritical manufacturing point and its entirely boring design.  They did the same thing with the South Korea made Encore (South Korea being a bit less scary than China).  Did Encore sales discernibly uptick at the moment the prices were dropped, or have they been on a steady uptick that cannot be attributed to a price drop?

    The last 2-3 years the Encore has been Buick's entry model and often is sold at prices around the 20 grand mark....more optioned at 20-25k.  I don't have numbers for Buick as a whole but the salesguy I talked to recently at a BGMC dealer said the Encore is by far the most popular (Buick) seller at their dealership.  Pricing is the big reason.  What that says to me, Buicks cannot support European level pricing.  So that's why we have 52,000 LaCrosses that they can't even mark down to 40k and move.  So to Balthazar's point go look at just about any Buick dealer website anywhere, the ones that post their prices if they have to mark it off 10 grand off sticker, that's an overpriced sticker.  GM's tendency the last few years is then advertise 15, 18, 20, 22, 30% off MSRP in national and regional ads and on their own websites.  What the hell more proof do you need.  It's ridiculous to say they don't have the incentives they used to.  That's wrong, they have just as many or more.  They haven't blasted the incentives on the Envision as much on the Buicks until about the last 9-12 months or so. Buick has a huge problem with not selling through their model year inventories.  There is always a lot of dealers that have still 2017's that are new.  By this time next year there will still be tons of 2018 new Buicks rotting on lots everywhere.  Why?  TOO HIGH MSRP vs what people willingly pay.  Buick's terrible at leasing too.  2018 Regal comes out of the gate with a 24 month residual of less than 50%.  What does that tell you.  People that analyze the market say the MSRP is too high too!

    So partially the Encore takes some of Envision's sales if the pricing is too close.  When the Encore is cheap, why step up to the Envision if it's 10-15 grand more?  Unless you like horrible dash PLOOD.

    Buick's sales would explode if they created great leasing for all their vehicle lines.  Buick is perhaps among the most lease averse brands out there.  The Encore and Enclave are the only ones that get good lease support, that's why they sell so well.  Admittedly the Enclave is such a good product in such a hot segment that it may not need incentives as much as the rest of Buick.  But the Encores are heavily subsidized.

    Edited by regfootball
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    5 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Pricing on the Envision is still too high.  It's hard to make a good case for it when the Terrain sits in the same lot and has a better base powertrain while feeling roomier.  I'm a Buick guy and I'd still probably pick a Terrain Denali over an Envision due to the pricing of Envision.

    I like the Envision a lot, but the terrible plood on the dash might even be a deal breaker for me on that, even if it were a steal on pricing.

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    So that's why we have 52,000 LaCrosses that they can't even mark down to 40k and move.  So to Balthazar's point go look at just about any Buick dealer website anywhere, the ones that post their prices if they have to mark it off 10 grand off sticker, that's an overpriced sticker.


    I might value anecdotal over hyperbole, tho ultimately I'd prefer empirical.

    My local Buick dealer current has (1) '18 La Crosse. It's sticker is $50,985 and its advertised price is $48,690, a difference of $2295. Guessing that would slot it under "well priced".
    They also show a brand new '17, MSRP: 48,995, advertised price: 45,390, a diff of $3605.

    I mean, I'd LIKE to believe 🙄 Buick has thousands of unsold LaCrosse's sitting there at $10K off sticker, I just am not finding anything close to that with a random cursory glance.

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    this is random with a little time on autotrader and google and not at all uncommon from what i see browsing from time to time

    http://www.everettbgmc.com/VehicleSearchResults?offer=76455410&search=new&year=2017&make=Buick&model=LaCrosse&trim=all&cs:o=76455410

    even without the stupid 'dealer trade discount' that is still fairly typical of what you see if you look around at competitive dealerships

     

     

    Edited by regfootball
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    this was back from 6 months ago when i emailed my mom regarding regals.  you walk into the dealership and not at all shy about it.  Now that Regal body was newly outgoing, but the point is why did they need to move 2017's in the first place.  and its not atypical for this to go on on any Buick at any time depending on how the mocha sippers behind the screen in the Buick marketing department like to selectively stockpile seen and unseen incentives at will.  That particular month they had a slew of Regal Sport tourings all were MSRP 32k and above and they were selling them starting at 18 grand. 

     

    image.png

    still sucks my mom didn't take advantage of this.  Regal Sport Touring with moonroof nice tan leather, 18 grand.

     

    Edited by regfootball

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    Well I'm sold on CUV's for their swiss army knife versatility.  The weird Terrain has really grown on me, even though it's a belly dragger.  I am keenly interested in seeing a Terrain AT4, if the press reports were correct (all GMC models will be available with an AT4 package?)  In the faux rock-crawler CUV world, it would definitely be cooler than a Compass Trailhawk, with the 2.0t or 1.6TD.  I also like the Equinox in certain colors.

    So I want to trade my Jeep in on a 2019 model... of something.  Not sure what yet.  My employer sells GMC, so that might be an advantage, or not.  If it is to be another CUV, I will need a trailer hitch so I can borrow my brother's utility trailer if I have a home project too big for it to handle.

    I do love the new Silverado and the Ram looks good too.  But neither of those would fit in my garage, and that has become important to me.  I am spoiled having a garage.

    So we have the Ranger coming soon, and the Colorado, while a bit stale in looks (saved by the CHEVROLET dealer-installed optional grille for 2019) it's still a good truck.

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    6 hours ago, regfootball said:

    this is random with a little time on autotrader and google and not at all uncommon from what i see browsing from time to time

    http://www.everettbgmc.com/VehicleSearchResults?offer=76455410&search=new&year=2017&make=Buick&model=LaCrosse&trim=all&cs:o=76455410

    Those are 2017's ; leftovers. In another month the '19s will be out.

    Edited by balthazar

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    yeah, they have 2017 leftovers, because they can't sell ridiculously overpriced iron.  

    Edited by regfootball

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    You seem to be glossing over on the fact that '17s are now a MINIMUM of 1-year old cars... going to (semantically) being 2 yrs old in another month. You don't think leftovers are hugely discounted???
    Why aren't '18's prices that low too? Oh yeah- because they're still new models.

    FIRST model I random searched, Beaumont TX, 2017 BMW 3-series, brand new: 331 days at that dealer, 584 days on car gurus. MSRP: $35,845. Sale price : $$25,845 - $10,000 off sticker, because it's "ridiculously overpriced iron".

    Or.... maybe because it's almost '2 years old'.
     

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    Wow. This is bad.  I actively wonder why nobody has gotten those 2017 models out the door yet. 

    I am now seeing ads for 2018 GMC and Cadillac models (mostly cheap financing via GM Financial).  Somebody made a poor decision to overproduce A LOT of CUVs and pickup trucks.  And apparently, it is infecting Buick too.  SAD.

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    13 hours ago, balthazar said:

    You seem to be glossing over on the fact that '17s are now a MINIMUM of 1-year old cars... going to (semantically) being 2 yrs old in another month. You don't think leftovers are hugely discounted???
    Why aren't '18's prices that low too? Oh yeah- because they're still new models.

    FIRST model I random searched, Beaumont TX, 2017 BMW 3-series, brand new: 331 days at that dealer, 584 days on car gurus. MSRP: $35,845. Sale price : $$25,845 - $10,000 off sticker, because it's "ridiculously overpriced iron".

    Or.... maybe because it's almost '2 years old'.
     

    I think that's his whole point. They still have 2017's because they can't move them unless there are huge discounts. Cars sitting on lots for 1-2 years..it bad. 

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    56 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    I think that's his whole point. They still have 2017's because they can't move them unless there are huge discounts. Cars sitting on lots for 1-2 years..it bad. 

    Yet for those that want a deal and do not care about the latest tech in an auto, these are great deals to be had.

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    I simply responded to '52,000 LaCrosses sitting on lots at $10K off sticker- check any dealer site' by checking 'my' Buick dealers, where they had 1 2017 available @ 3600 off. Then I searched for an unsold 2017 3-series and the first one I found was $10K off. Just looked at 'my' mercedes dealer, they have a brand new '17 S550 AWD stickered at $75K- that's got to be around $35-40K off.

    Yes; dealers do not like having last year's models still in inventory. However, it's commonplace for it to happen. Buick cars are not in any more demand than any other brand's cars, so I would not be surprised if a higher number were in Buick's inventory. But anytime someone runs into the room and says '52,000 cars they can't even firesale = ridiculously overpriced', I think it's logical to ask for more details than 'that seems to be what I've seen randomly googling around'.
     

    Edited by balthazar
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    18 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I simply responded to '52,000 LaCrosses sitting on lots at $10K off sticker- check any dealer site' by checking 'my' Buick dealers, where they had 1 2017 available @ 3600 off. Then I searched for an unsold 2017 3-series and the first one I found was $10K off. Just looked at 'my' mercedes dealer, they have a brand new '17 S550 AWD stickered at $75K- that's got to be around $35-40K off.

    Yes; dealers do not like having last year's models still in inventory. However, it's commonplace for it to happen. Buick cars are not in any more demand than any other brand's cars, so I would not be surprised if a higher number were in Buick's inventory. But anytime someone runs into the room and says '52,000 cars they can't even firesale = ridiculously overpriced', I think it's logical to ask for more details than 'that seems to be what I've seen randomly googling around'.
     

    :rofl: You are so right, just checked the local Seattle Mercedes-benz dealership, they had 20 2017 model cars, CUV and vans on their lot with discounts from 10K to 15K off. I think this is a global issue with things slowing down along with crazy MSRP pricing that is now forcing OEMs to have to do steep discounts.

    We are Due to have a realignment of pricing on everything as things have gotten way to crazy priced.

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    40 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    Yet for those that want a deal and do not care about the latest tech in an auto, these are great deals to be had.

    They are fantastic deals to be had! Too bad nothing from Buick even remotely interests me... 

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    Used luxury sedans depreciate so quickly, I regularly see nicely equipped C-Classes for around $24k.  I see just a couple of Envisions for that price, most of the used ones are in the $29k and up range. 

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    1 minute ago, ccap41 said:

    Buick isn't a luxury car 🤣

    Depends. The Lacrosse and Enclave certainly are.  Envision is possibly debatable... but it is certainly priced like one. Base price is only $3k away from the Lexus NX and the moment you select a real engine (2.0T), you're automagically over $42k, which is more than AWD NX, RDX and same price as a MB GLC with a similar powertrain (2.0t + AWD).

     

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    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I think this is a global issue with things slowing down along with crazy MSRP pricing that is now forcing OEMs to have to do steep discounts.

    Through June, US vehicle sales are 8.6 million. Mathematically, that would equate to 17.2 million.
    OEMs (well, maybe Daimler excepted; showing the biggest YTD loss of all brands) should not be feeling any pressure to 'do steep discounts' when the volume is pretty much on par with the last few years. Thru June '18 :
    Ford : down 1.6%
    GM : up 3.4%
    FCA : up 4.1%
    honda : down 1.4%
    nissan : down 3%
    toyoyo : up 4.3%
    VW : up 5.3%
    hyundai : down 2.1%
    Daimler : down 11.3%
    BMW : up 2.7%

    GDP was over 20T in Mar-Apr-May; first time ever.
    Consumer spending in Q@ 2018 rose from 12.7B to 12.8B.
    There's no downturn happening to react to right now.

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    35 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

    Depends. The Lacrosse and Enclave certainly are.  Envision is possibly debatable... but it is certainly priced like one. Base price is only $3k away from the Lexus NX and the moment you select a real engine (2.0T), you're automagically over $42k, which is more than AWD NX, RDX and same price as a MB GLC with a similar powertrain (2.0t + AWD).

     

    I was just cracking a joke because I knew it'd rile you up..lol

    But in all seriousness, there is nothing about Buick that says, "I'm a real luxury brand". 

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    42 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Through June, US vehicle sales are 8.6 million. Mathematically, that would equate to 17.2 million.
    OEMs (well, maybe Daimler excepted; showing the biggest YTD loss of all brands) should not be feeling any pressure to 'do steep discounts' when the volume is pretty much on par with the last few years. Thru June '18 :
    Ford : down 1.6%
    GM : up 3.4%
    FCA : up 4.1%
    honda : down 1.4%
    nissan : down 3%
    toyoyo : up 4.3%
    VW : up 5.3%
    hyundai : down 2.1%
    Daimler : down 11.3%
    BMW : up 2.7%

    GDP was over 20T in Mar-Apr-May; first time ever.
    Consumer spending in Q@ 2018 rose from 12.7B to 12.8B.
    There's no downturn happening to react to right now.

    True and great info, my concern is the rapid growth of consumer debt. Latest data is showing that over the last 3 1/2 years we have seen a spike in consumer debt and I do not think it is reducing but growing. This is going to be an ugly correction again.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/one-sure-fire-prediction-for-2018-americans-will-take-on-even-more-debt-2017-12-18 

    image.png

    image.png

    Great Chart of National Debt to GDF and Major Events.

    https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-by-year-compared-to-gdp-and-major-events-3306287

    This tends to go along with those of us that believe a correction is coming.

     

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    1 hour ago, ccap41 said:

    I was just cracking a joke because I knew it'd rile you up..lol

    But in all seriousness, there is nothing about Buick that says, "I'm a real luxury brand". 

    They're an in-between. Not full luxury, but not a pedestrian brand either. That is actually their traditional spot in the market hierarchy. 

    Buicks were the cars for bankers and doctors who wanted a fine car, but didn't want to be ostentatious by driving a Cadillac or Imperial.  

    I'm fine with Buick maintaining that position and I think their pricing needs to be a bit less ambitious to match that.... And for Eff sake drop that horrible 2.5 liter.

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    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    True and great info, my concern is the rapid growth of consumer debt.

    Your link predicts a ONE percent rise next year.
    Where exactly do you draw the line over which growth becomes "rapid"??

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    Black Edition 2019 Terrain SLE 2.0t AWD with trailering package... (you cannot get a trailering package unless you buy a ridiculous unrelated "convenience" package with a list of unneeded crap) and floor liner package stickers at $35,600.  The black wheels and trim really butch it up.

    Edited by ocnblu

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    11 hours ago, ccap41 said:

    I think that's his whole point. They still have 2017's because they can't move them unless there are huge discounts. Cars sitting on lots for 1-2 years..it bad. 

    I think when i was selling new Suzukis, even those moved off the lot faster than Buicks and their overzealous MSRP's

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    5 minutes ago, regfootball said:

    I think when i was selling new Suzukis, even those moved off the lot faster than Buicks and their overzealous MSRP's

    Suzukis were always cheap.  Buicks are not (and seldom were).

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    10 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I simply responded to '52,000 LaCrosses sitting on lots at $10K off sticker- check any dealer site' by checking 'my' Buick dealers, where they had 1 2017 available @ 3600 off. Then I searched for an unsold 2017 3-series and the first one I found was $10K off. Just looked at 'my' mercedes dealer, they have a brand new '17 S550 AWD stickered at $75K- that's got to be around $35-40K off.

    Yes; dealers do not like having last year's models still in inventory. However, it's commonplace for it to happen. Buick cars are not in any more demand than any other brand's cars, so I would not be surprised if a higher number were in Buick's inventory. But anytime someone runs into the room and says '52,000 cars they can't even firesale = ridiculously overpriced', I think it's logical to ask for more details than 'that seems to be what I've seen randomly googling around'.
     

    Many Buick and Cadillac dealers are not 'best price' dealers and are averse to putting one price prices or any prices at all on their websites.  Its because for every person they haggle for 2 days over lowest price, is some idiot who comes in and pays much more than they should because they were not told about incentives, nor were given discounts.  Those are the stores where product sits, and sits, and sits, until there are two and three year old cars on the lot.  But there are still a bunch of dealers that will sell regularly at those bottom like prices because they are volume stores, but because Buick, Cadillac are not average brands they won't advertise their fire sales.  Regional incentives, national incentives, loan programs, lease programs, all sorts of targeted cash and dealer discretion / discounts... if they want to move the cars they end up using them.  I love a discount like anyone but in the next few months we will even see the inevitable 25 or 30% off MSRP.  And even then the cars maybe don't move.  If that is the case, then the market is saying they are REALLY overpriced, MSRP wise.

     

    4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

    Black Edition 2019 Terrain SLE 2.0t AWD with trailering package... (you cannot get a trailering package unless you buy a ridiculous unrelated "convenience" package with a list of unneeded crap) and floor liner package stickers at $35,600.  The black wheels and trim really butch it up.

    The BLAZER is more your style anyways.  !

    4 minutes ago, riviera74 said:

    Suzukis were always cheap.  Buicks are not (and seldom were).

    we always had several that sat more than a year on the lot and were carryovers, and didn't move until they really broke open the incentive bank.  Incentives are the great equalizer I guess.

    Meanwhile, Honda probably flips its inventories rather quickly.  Are there ever Honda carryovers on their popular models?

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    I suspect that Honda has high dealer inventory turnover because Honda tends to make too few vehicles (given demand) in order to support those MSRPs.  Same with Acura, I suspect.

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    1 hour ago, regfootball said:

    Many Buick and Cadillac dealers are not 'best price' dealers and are averse to putting one price prices or any prices at all on their websites.

    Hence; I used dealer sites that posted both MSRPs and advertised prices.
    Greenbrook has 0 '17 LaCrosses, and 6 '18s. Of the 6, 1 is $3500 off, the others are about $1500.
    Perrine has 1 '18 and it's $2000 off. Their 1 '17 is a service / demo car.
    Straub has 1 '17, it's $4800 off. They have 3 '18s, they're about $900 off MSRP.
    Maxon has 0 '17s, 15 '18s, the biggest discount is about $2500 vs. sticker.
    Freehold has 0 '17s and 0 '18s.
    Flemington only lists 1 2019 LaCrosse.
    Kerbeck has 6 '18s, the biggest discount is about $2500.

    None of the Buick dealer's site's I checked DIDN'T have both prices posted on all cars.
    LaCrosse is in low inventory in NJ, and there's nothing close to $10K off on any of them via my observation. We're still being vague on if we're talking about '17s or '18s, anyway.
    Sorry reg, I just cannot even remotely duplicate your claim.
     

    Quote

    ...in the next few months we will even see the inevitable 25 or 30% off MSRP

    how is that going to be possible when

    Quote

    they won't advertise their fire sales

    ???

    Edited by balthazar

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    Somebody out there compiles a chart outlining "average number of days on lot" per vehicle model.  We've all seen it referenced.

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    8 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    I suspect that Honda has high dealer inventory turnover because Honda tends to make too few vehicles (given demand) in order to support those MSRPs.  Same with Acura, I suspect.

    This is true... Honda intentionally under-produces to avoid a situation with excess inventory.  They brag about having the lowest rental fleet sales in the industry partially for that reason.  I don't think they care about winning the volume war, they aim for per-unit profitability, thus aim to keep margins high, not just the lights on.

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    Latest story on auto's that the American Public do not want. Dated April 17th 2018

    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/04/17/cars-americans-dont-want-to-buy-3/

    #15 Buick Envision Avg days on lot 161.8

    #14 Cadillac ATS Avg days on lot 164.9

    #13 Cadillac XTS Avg days on lot 165

    #12 Buick Cascada Avg days on lot 167.3

    #11 Hyundai Genesis Avg days on lot 169.2

    #10 Cadillac CTS Avg days on lot 172.3

    #9 Buick LaCrosse Avg days on lot 175.9

    #8 Jeep Patroit Avg days on lot 176.0

    #7 Buick Regal Avg days on lot 177.7

    #6 Toyota Yaris Avg days on lot 178.4

    #5 Nissan Quest Avg days on lot 185.1

    #4 Chrysler 200 Avg days on lot 187.4

    #3 Volkswagen CC Avg days on lot 189.4

    #2 Dodge Dart Avg days on lot 207.8

    #1 Buick Verano Avg days on lot 223.6

    Buick was the top slow selling auto line in 2017. This they state is due to Americans having lost their love of sedans and coupes.  Buick Envision is the only CUV on the top 15 list and they believe this is due to inventory issues based on a lack of diverse versions as the bulk of them are fully loaded high priced models that get large discounts at the end of the year.

    Interesting point made is that the Cadillac ATS is the only car to be on the list since 2015 and is a head scratcher as they say it is a superior driving machine compared to BMW. 

    This was compiled based on 2017 data from Kelley Blue Book. They took the average number of days a model sat on the dealer's lot before being sold.

    • Haha 1

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    This is the data as of 2016, I could not find any newer but it shows the average number of days in dealer inventory by segment, make and manufacturer.

    2016-10-dtt.xls

    Would love to get a 2017 version to compare.

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    12 minutes ago, dfelt said:

    This they state is due to Americans having lost their love of sedans and coupes. 

    Oh yeah because Buick was the world's leader in coupe sales just a year or two ago. 

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    Story is a year old, but I have to say has some valid points made.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/04/25/cars-are-sitting-on-the-lot-longer-even-as-dealers-sweeten-the-offers.html

    They talk about how the average MSRP from all auto companies is now based on a 10.5% incentive level in the suggested retail price. This tells me that instead of selling a solid auto at a reasonable price, they are jacking up the price to then tear it down with huge incentive to artificially make one think they are getting a great deal.

    I would rather have them sell a few less auto's at higher ATP than be the volume leader.

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    Searched every Buick dealer in Washington state, found one Verano on the lot, otherwise it would seem the dealers here do a better job of managing inventory than the east coast.

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    Move the metal is what brought GM to BK nine years ago.  Never forget that lesson.  GM generally (and Buick in particular) really needs to cut back on production just so dealers can clear inventory.

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    15 hours ago, Guest Potluck said:

    why should Buick get an exemption but VOLVO or Ford not?

    Because 'Merica.

    But you have a decent point... would this change Ford's idea of building Focus in China. 

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    On 8/4/2018 at 10:26 AM, ocnblu said:

    Well then, Obama's team should have "leveraged" GM to kill Buick and let Pontiac live.

    Uh, no.  The Chinese auto industry is bigger than the American auto industry.  Buick is here because of China and I think GM sold more cars in China than it did in the USA last year.  GM would have gone bankrupt again if Obama took away their Chinese business.

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    2 hours ago, dfelt said:

    Latest story on auto's that the American Public do not want. Dated April 17th 2018

    https://247wallst.com/special-report/2018/04/17/cars-americans-dont-want-to-buy-3/

    #6 Toyota Yaris Avg days on lot 178.4

    #5 Nissan Quest Avg days on lot 185.1

    #4 Chrysler 200 Avg days on lot 187.4

    #3 Volkswagen CC Avg days on lot 189.4

    #2 Dodge Dart Avg days on lot 207.8

    #1 Buick Verano Avg days on lot 223.6

     

    Interesting point made is that the Cadillac ATS is the only car to be on the list since 2015 and is a head scratcher as they say it is a superior driving machine compared to BMW. 

    Wait, Toyota still has the Yaris on sale?  

    That list is littered with Cadillac and Buick’s because they over built and the sales were dismal.  You don’t see any BMW, Audi or Mercedes or Acura or Lexus sedans on that list so it goes beyond “people just don’t buy sedans anymore.”

    The ATS all around isn’t a good enough product to drive demand, plus it doesn’t say BMW on it, so people don’t want it.   Cadillac’s biggest problem is image.  Take away the product and say “I drive a Cadillac” “I drive a BMW” or “I drive a Tesla” and which seems like the most envious statement?  

    For the most part, people don’t want Cadillacs, they buy them because they “got a deal” and can feel some sense of victory in getting $10,000 off sticker.

    Edited by smk4565

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    Yeah, when my Escape got wrecked my rental was a Yaris. It was a big ole POS. 

    Edited by ccap41

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    7 minutes ago, ccap41 said:

    Yeah, when my Escape got wrecked my rental was a Yaris. It was a big ole POS. 

    I think that would have been the old Yaris... you're not wrong about it being a POS, but it's not the better Mazda built one available today. 

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    they sent 6 mos of Envision stock and Envisions stay about 5 1/3 mos on the lot before selling.

    Talk about over production. The car is over produced in China, and I believe now the real reason why the Envision came to U.S. market is because it didn’t sell as well as GM had hoped. 

    The Envisions competitors in China are the same as here.

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    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Uh, no.  The Chinese auto industry is bigger than the American auto industry.  Buick is here because of China and I think GM sold more cars in China than it did in the USA last year.  GM would have gone bankrupt again if Obama took away their Chinese business.

    Duh smk... the plan is to build cool Pontiacs for North America and for export/manufacture to China simply affix them with waterfall grilles, simulated wire wheel covers, ventiport hoods, crushed velour interiors, landau roofs and non-straked taillights for the Chinese.  I do not care one bit if China gets a rebadged "Buick" that could be sold as something more desirable here.

    Edited by ocnblu

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    36 minutes ago, ocnblu said:

    Duh smk... the plan is to build cool Pontiacs for North America and for export/manufacture to China simply affix them with waterfall grilles, simulated wire wheel covers, ventiport hoods, crushed velour interiors, landau roofs and non-straked taillights for the Chinese.  I do not care one bit if China gets a rebadged "Buick" that could be sold as something more desirable here.

    WOW. 1985 called: they want their old GM back.

    • Haha 3

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    23 hours ago, Suaviloquent said:

    they sent 6 mos of Envision stock and Envisions stay about 5 1/3 mos on the lot before selling.

    Talk about over production. The car is over produced in China, and I believe now the real reason why the Envision came to U.S. market is because it didn’t sell as well as GM had hoped. 

    The Envisions competitors in China are the same as here.

    EXCITEMENT!!!!!

     

    image.png

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    On 8/7/2018 at 7:34 PM, riviera74 said:

    WOW. 1985 called: they want their old GM back.

    Ah, subtlety is lost on our boy Riv...

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