Cadillac Begins Its Eighth Reinvention In Two Decades

Lutz is correct, the Dare Greatly is a FAILURE. Cadillac Korea better understands advertising luxury. Just look at their Instagram account. Way better than the US version.

https://www.instagram.com/cadillackorea/

They clearly get how to do this with young people. The US must be done by baby boomers.

US has some great auto pics, but nothing that drives home why Cadillac is better or to even Dare Greatly. Pathetic

https://www.instagram.com/cadillac/

Even Cadillac Canada gets a better youth driven message driven image.

https://www.instagram.com/cadillac_canada/

Cadillac Europe is also like the US, just mostly auto's with no real messaging other than the stupid Dare Greatly at the top. Pathetic

https://www.instagram.com/cadillaceurope/

Cadillac Arabia has some awesome history pics and story.

https://www.instagram.com/cadillacarabia/

Cadillac should just relocate to OMaha or Iowa, and I mean that without meanness.  Heartland you know.  If you're going to court urbanites, do it in the midwestern states at least. 

I think the other bit people don't understand.  A lot of Cadillac's bad rap the last 5-7 years is in a huge way related to the terrible outcomes of the early CUE systems.  By all accounts since 17 and especially on the new product, the touchscreen business is bangup and reliable and so I think that alone will get buyers back into the fold once the good rep comes back.

The V8 returning is huge too.  Caddy's heart and soul is v8 and if this new v8 is boss AND reliable it can be a HUGE difference maker in returning interest to Cadillac.

^ Lutz just damned Cadillac advertising because in a number of instances they 'didn't even show the car until the ad was half over', yet the Cadillac korea instagram site has a huge majority of pic links not showing any product, just anonymous people. Which way do you want it?

“We lost our mojo for a long period of time. This time, it is different and we will show you,"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Yeah right, why will it be different?  Oh please explain Mr. Carlisle.   This brand hasn't had mojo since the 80s and that mojo was mostly with seniors even then.  Since then it has been one mistake after another, "Dare Greatly" was a horrible idea, I said that at the time they launched it.

I don't see the XT4 as their savior because the millennial and Get X-ers that are buying cars don't want a Cadillac, they want a German car if they like performance and they want an Acura or Lexus if they want reliability.  Cadillac's brand image is badly damaged, and I guarantee nobody at GM knows how to fix it, or else they would have done it already.

It's not individual "reinventions". The brand builds American luxury / well-performing (or scorchingly so) vehicles, as it has for most of it's history (not all, of course). These public statements aren't supposed to indicate 'difference'; they are a remnant of Corporate-think where sales were the be all, end all. It's outmoded, and frankly, consumers don't know or care.

One of my 'mandate wishes' for Cadillac has actually happened already; the discontinuance of monthly sales reports.  Hopefully, future sales projections will likewise never be released again. Add to that, there should never again be public declarations of 're-' anything; invention, investment, dedication, etc. 

Cadillac should only speak of what they actually are doing : a evolutionary strive forward to be among the best.

God- I would love to run Cadillac for a few years.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

I don't see the XT4 as their savior because the millennial and Get X-ers that are buying cars don't want a Cadillac, they want a German car if they like performance and they want an Acura or Lexus if they want reliability.

Unless it's a mid-size SUV; then they do want a Cadillac.  Your metric; sales - isn't the XT5 #2 in it's segment?

No model is ever a 'savior' for a brand (well; maybe the cayenne/macan for porsche), but the XT4, especially in light of recent reviews I've seen, should perform very well for Cadillac volume-wise (not that I care about high volume). Were it to also get to #3 or #2 in its segment, that's a very significant statement that people want Cadillacs.

Auto brands, just like brands in any other industry, operate globally.  Cadillac operates in 2 countries and ranks in 6th or 7th place in both of them.  I don't see any path for them to do better than that.  Cadillac doesn't really have a clear focus or brand image, they haven't for decades.

Cadillac was late on crossovers, they'll probably be late on EV's and miss that market when it takes off.   I think GM will keep Cadillac around because they'll always find a way for the Cadillac brand to turn a profit.   But I see no way for them to turn this brand around.

7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

“We lost our mojo for a long period of time. This time, it is different and we will show you,"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Yeah right, why will it be different?  Oh please explain Mr. Carlisle.   This brand hasn't had mojo since the 80s and that mojo was mostly with seniors even then.  Since then it has been one mistake after another, "Dare Greatly" was a horrible idea, I said that at the time they launched it.

I don't see the XT4 as their savior because the millennial and Get X-ers that are buying cars don't want a Cadillac, they want a German car if they like performance and they want an Acura or Lexus if they want reliability.  Cadillac's brand image is badly damaged, and I guarantee nobody at GM knows how to fix it, or else they would have done it already.

Yes and no. Caddy had something going when the CTS rolled out and their SUV was hot. But then they just lost their way yet again, and that was that.

Caddy simply needs to stop comparing it self to other brands, and start just simply carving it’s own image. You’re not going to change the mindset of competing against the best in the world-so it’s time to simply go your own way....

6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

Auto brands, just like brands in any other industry, operate globally.  Cadillac operates in 2 countries and ranks in 6th or 7th place in both of them.  I don't see any path for them to do better than that. 

That's purely sales-focused, not where I want a luxury brand to circle around.

Quote

Cadillac doesn't really have a clear focus or brand image, they haven't for decades.

There's no response to such an inane comment.

Most/All of the new models coming were started under Johann.

Why is everyone feeling the need to court young people?  If we are lucky, young people become older, and as we age we accumulate money if we're careful... enough to treat ourselves to a Cadillac, perhaps.

I totally agree with those that say chasing BMW and Mercedes has been a recipe for failure.  It is Cadillac following, not leading.  Trying to not be Cadillac.  A forfeiture of greatness, a disowning of one's own greatest history.

The V8 CT6 is a glimmer of hope.  I just wish it had a real name... something to remember.  Turbo 4 CT6 is a disastrous idea.  STUPID.

The XT4... I hope it catches on.  Of course being an insignificant bystander, I would make some changes to it.

I think Cadillac should adhere to RWD/AWD chassis only.  I think strong, silent V8 power is sorely missed.

Escalade's staying power should be a clue to Cadillac management of what Cadillac should strive to be across the entire line.  Brash, bold, unashamedly AMERICAN.  BIG AND STRONG.

They did not give Oldsmobile that many chances or this long to turn around. I see the unfairness in that alone.  There are marketing and management issues at "GM". Get to the root of the issues.  It has been a long time watching this turn around. There is a product issue too. They had all those great concepts, and did not pursue yo think about putting them into production.  Too many management changes and and too many directions and false starts.  Although it is see as cheesy now, The "Cadillac Style" era marketing worked and it was memorable. It sold cars.

Much like what has been stated here, Cadillac needs to ignore, stop trying to follow the Germans as Idiot Johan attempted and continue to deliver on what they did great. Yes SOME elements are getting into the product but not enough of what made their concepts so great.

Will say there are some sweet Ideas for Cadillac out there!

listening to the biased bullshit that comes off SMK's keyboard is a  march onward into insanity.

The reality is that Cadillac never needed reinvention.. they just needed products that were revolutionary.  The first CTS was the springboard that promised to launch Cadillac into the new century. CTS.. then the XLR.., the Escalade .. then the SRX.. then the STS.  What destroyed a great deal of promise was the simple fact that Cadillac was in the hands of GM during a time of survival. Seriously.. think about it. 2000-2009 was a dark time. Not just for GM, but the entire American 3. The interesting part is that they had the formula partially correct under Lutz's direction. The Second Gen CTS was a hit. The STS.. now faced with a still similar sized new rival costing less.. even lost me as I went with my first CTS-V after a brief 1 month stint with a horrible quality M5. But here is the kicker.. and timing was everything:

We can skip to 2011. The long promised STS replacement materialized into the XTS.. the XTS was originally supposed to be a replacement for the DTS named XLS.. They mergered the STS and DTS together, and went FWD based due to costs and timing. The SRX, Caddy's sole CUV was selling like hotcakes, especially compared the RWD model. Here's how I think things could have stayed the course

The CTS should have been down-sized to essentially the ATS on Alpha. Hindsight suggests that the car spies should have spied on BMW a lil better and saw that the 3Series was gonna add a lil more space in the rear. A simple "scallop" of the back of the front seats would have shut a bunch up about leg room. That being said.. the CTS should have never lost its position. All variations should have been reintroed for the 3rd gen.. Wagon, Coupe, Sedan, Vert... V for all 4

The STS should have remained. It should have been the current CTS.. again.. more legroom for the bitches who bitch. A WAGON, a Sedan, a Coupe, Vert and a V For all 4 would have sufficed

SRX, along withe the BRX (smaller) should have been as they are.. FWD based. Same size difference as the XT5 and XT4, with a AWD only variant of the Lambdas at the time as an ERX

XLR should have remained.. Gotten  C6 and then C7 bones instead of it being a C5 variant as it was. Furthermore the engines should have been no different than the Vette's. As in a XLR- with LS3, XLR VSport- LS7 and XLR VSeries LS9

Escalade should have been pretty much what it has been with a more powerful 500HP+ engine option to go head on with RRover. 

The XTS (or what was also called XLS and  DT7) should have been introduced on Omega.. essentially what the CT6 is, but add back in that 10% they took out to have it go full on with the S-Class. That includes exactly what is getting ready to happen with the 2019 model year. There should have also been a coupe XTC

The name thing is negligible now.. what's done is done. The XT5 and CT6 names are very well known and I hear people actually knowing what they are upon sight.. even women. The new names will settle in fine if Caddy properly announces them and does so in a way that does not confuse returning customers. I can tell U straight up that people would go in dealerships looking for the "small" Caddy and find that it was no longer called CTS.. it was now a smaller ATS. No warning.. no announcement. The switch to XT5 was done well. The intro of the XT4 is going nice. The thing they need to do at the Auto Show is have an EV and VSport version of both ready to be shown and ready to launch by Spring 2019.

The thing is that my plan isn't even hard to replicate, and truthfully GM has all the parts to do it.. cost effectively.. but alas.. that cost was probably $100 over what some planner budgeted for it so it was scrapped.. instead of just saying "FUCK IT.. charge the customer's $400 more for it."

15 hours ago, smk4565 said:

“We lost our mojo for a long period of time. This time, it is different and we will show you,"

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.  Yeah right, why will it be different?  Oh please explain Mr. Carlisle.   This brand hasn't had mojo since the 80s and that mojo was mostly with seniors even then.  Since then it has been one mistake after another, "Dare Greatly" was a horrible idea, I said that at the time they launched it.

I don't see the XT4 as their savior because the millennial and Get X-ers that are buying cars don't want a Cadillac, they want a German car if they like performance and they want an Acura or Lexus if they want reliability.  Cadillac's brand image is badly damaged, and I guarantee nobody at GM knows how to fix it, or else they would have done it already.

Saw a BMW X4 in a parking lot yesterday.  As more of those creations pop up it just underscores how much the XT4 will help Cadillac.  It gets Caddy's foot in the door to compare with those strange and milquetoast German and Asian luxo SUV's.  So it is, what people want.  Including Millenials.  And Seniors.

4 hours ago, ocnblu said:

Why is everyone feeling the need to court young people?  If we are lucky, young people become older, and as we age we accumulate money if we're careful... enough to treat ourselves to a Cadillac, perhaps.

I totally agree with those that say chasing BMW and Mercedes has been a recipe for failure.  It is Cadillac following, not leading.  Trying to not be Cadillac.  A forfeiture of greatness, a disowning of one's own greatest history.

The V8 CT6 is a glimmer of hope.  I just wish it had a real name... something to remember.  Turbo 4 CT6 is a disastrous idea.  STUPID.

The XT4... I hope it catches on.  Of course being an insignificant bystander, I would make some changes to it.

I think Cadillac should adhere to RWD/AWD chassis only.  I think strong, silent V8 power is sorely missed.

Escalade's staying power should be a clue to Cadillac management of what Cadillac should strive to be across the entire line.  Brash, bold, unashamedly AMERICAN.  BIG AND STRONG.

I don't think the CUV's need a RWD biased chassis, they just need a very good chassis.  The new XT4 chassis is wider and has suspension and ride that is not bargain sedan class by accounts.  Likewise, it has a brand new (smooth by accounts) 2.0 motor with enough movement to get out of its own way.  Not a 15 year old 2.5 and CVT.  As long as Cadillac ditches the 2.0 from the CT6 and doesn't put the 2.5 NA in the newer products I think they are getting the picture.  The XT5 is a geriatric wagon and so next go round they may need to overhaul the ride and handling and such, but they can still keep it on the FWD/AWD platform IMO.  Maybe Caddy would benefit from a CT6 chassis RWD/AWD exclusive sports crossover.

I do think the sedans except for an entry class sedan should use RWD/AWD because they have to demonstrate being the very best.  But the entry class vehicle, which cmon, is for young posuers like those who get a CLA, to make a very excellent FWD/AWD chassis that is outperforming the A3's of the world, its not a bad strategy to just have a few sales of those here in the US.  If you don't make much $$ on those in the US, but can cover those costs globally, its ok IMO to have that model be FWD/AWD.  It just needs a larger back seat than the ATS.

Caddy fans should be thankful for the XT4 and XT5, they make enough of Caddy's volume, or will, to keep the dealer's doors open so they can sell the rest of the lineup.

7 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Most/All of the new models coming were started under Johann.

Which means they probably won’t be any good.

2 hours ago, regfootball said:

The XT5 is a geriatric wagon and so next go round they may need to overhaul the ride and handling and such...

Aaaaaaaaand; there it is.

2 hours ago, regfootball said:

I don't think the CUV's need a RWD biased chassis...

My local dealer has 14 2019 XT5 in inventory and 13 are AWD. FWD/RWD is a non-factor.

I agree with Cmicasa’s product line but Cadiallc didn’t do that then and they aren’t going to do it now.  This brand doesn’t spend money and I have been saying that for a decade.  Even going back to the XLR in 2004, they cut cost all over the place. 

The argument that sedans need to be rwd for better performance, ride and handling, but the crossovers are fine with front drive makes no sense.  If rwd has better ride and handling then you should invest in it on the most popular body style of vehicle.  Cadillac sales could be 80% SUV by 2020, why wouldn’t they want the best platform possible on 80% of their product?

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The argument that sedans need to be rwd for better performance, ride and handling, but the crossovers are fine with front drive makes no sense.

My local BMW dealer has 21 2019 X5's in inventory and 21 are AWD. FWD/RWD is a non-factor. Nearly all SUVs are all AWD.
If RWD was so great in SUVs (because assumedly people were road racing them or something), wouldn't most BMW SUVs be RWD INSTEAD of AWD??

1 hour ago, balthazar said:

My local BMW dealer has 21 2019 X5's in inventory and 21 are AWD. FWD/RWD is a non-factor. Nearly all SUVs are all AWD.
If RWD was so great in SUVs (because assumedly people were road racing them or something), wouldn't most BMW SUVs be RWD INSTEAD of AWD??

Same reason the SRX went FWD: sales.  The original luxury crossover, the first Lexus RX, defined the market in ways that are still palpable today.  Few RWD crossovers sell compared to their FWD competition.

As for the reinvention, it is ALL ABOUT a unique selling point: why Cadillac instead of BMW/MB/Audi/Lexus/Acura?  The new head at Cadillac had better figure out why anyone should buy a Cadillac AND push that.  No need to ape Japan or Germany on anything.

2 hours ago, balthazar said:

My local BMW dealer has 21 2019 X5's in inventory and 21 are AWD. FWD/RWD is a non-factor. Nearly all SUVs are all AWD.
If RWD was so great in SUVs (because assumedly people were road racing them or something), wouldn't most BMW SUVs be RWD INSTEAD of AWD??

They are all AWD, but you need a longitudinal mounted engine with the transmission behind it that can help with weight balance, longer wheelbase, and the ability to send more power to the rear wheels, like 40/60 to the rear for example. 

If chassis does not matter, then the CT4, CT5, CT6 should all be FWD with an AWD setup (make it standard AWD if they want) in order to save money.  They can build the whole line off Cruze and Malibu chassis and save engineering resources.  

6 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

They are all AWD, but you need a longitudinal mounted engine with the transmission behind it that can help with weight balance, longer wheelbase, and the ability to send more power to the rear wheels, like 40/60 to the rear for example. 

If chassis does not matter, then the CT4, CT5, CT6 should all be FWD with an AWD setup (make it standard AWD if they want) in order to save money.  They can build the whole line off Cruze and Malibu chassis and save engineering resources.  

Chassis doesn't matter for a vehicle that is never going to be used with sporting intentions.  The XT5 outsells the X3 easily.  Cadillac doesn't (yet) have an X5 competitor.  The German competition to the XT4 is all transverse FWD (X1 and GLC)... in fact, there isn't a RWD competitor to the XT4 from any brand. 

^^^^^

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Chassis doesn't matter for a vehicle that is never going to be used with sporting intentions.  The XT5 outsells the X3 easily.  Cadillac doesn't (yet) have an X5 competitor.  The German competition to the XT4 is all transverse FWD (X1 and GLC)... in fact, there isn't a RWD competitor to the XT4 from any brand. 

Precisely.  Cadillac is following.  Not leading.

I'm putting on my Mary Barra hat.  @ocnblu, @smk4565, @Cubical-aka-Moltar here is your job:

1. Show me the ROI of using a RWD platform instead of a FWD platform.   There must be higher profits on the XT4 to justify changing my mind. 

The key competition at this price point is the GLC, X1/2, Q3, QX30, Lexus NX or UX and Acura RDX.  Show the advantages to sales figures.

26 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm putting on my Mary Barra hat.  @ocnblu, @smk4565, @Cubical-aka-Moltar here is your job:

1. Show me the ROI of using a RWD platform instead of a FWD platform.   There must be higher profits on the XT4 to justify changing my mind. 

The key competition at this price point is the GLC, X1/2, Q3, QX30, Lexus NX or UX and Acura RDX.  Show the advantages to sales figures.

 

The advantage is in MSRP.  

This is the XT5's dimensions:  190″ L x 75″ W x 66″ H

Range Rover Velar dimensions:  189″ L x 76″ W x 66″ H

And Merc GLE's dimensions:  189″ L x 76″ W x 71″ H

The XT5 starts at $40,595 and maxes at  $70,095.

RR Velar starts at $49,600 and maxes at $94,385.

The GLE starts at $52,200 and maxes at $127,925.

In all 3 builds I added all the options except for dealer accessories like all weather floor mats, wheel locks, engine block heater, etc.  Given those numbers it looks like an easy $10-20,000 price increase by going to rear drive.

We can do this with the XT4 also, which is 181″ L x 77″ W x 64″ H 

Mercedes GLC: 183″ L x 74″ W x 65″ H and Porsche Macan 184″ L x 76″ W x 64″ H

The GLC starts at $40,700 and Car and Driver had and as tested GLC63 at $103,300. 

Porsche Macan starts at $47,800 and I had it up to $127,180 on their configurator and I didn't even check a lot of the boxes.  

Porsche gets $20,000 per vehicle profit, and they don't do it with front drive and a turbo 4.

You continue to fall at reading.

I said price class.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

I'm putting on my Mary Barra hat.  @ocnblu, @smk4565, @Cubical-aka-Moltar here is your job:

1. Show me the ROI of using a RWD platform instead of a FWD platform.   There must be higher profits on the XT4 to justify changing my mind. 

The key competition at this price point is the GLC, X1/2, Q3, QX30, Lexus NX or UX and Acura RDX.  Show the advantages to sales figures.

 

and MKC

28 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

The advantage is in MSRP.  

This is the XT5's dimensions:  190″ L x 75″ W x 66″ H

Range Rover Velar dimensions:  189″ L x 76″ W x 66″ H

And Merc GLE's dimensions:  189″ L x 76″ W x 71″ H

The XT5 starts at $40,595 and maxes at  $70,095.

RR Velar starts at $49,600 and maxes at $94,385.

The GLE starts at $52,200 and maxes at $127,925.

In all 3 builds I added all the options except for dealer accessories like all weather floor mats, wheel locks, engine block heater, etc.  Given those numbers it looks like an easy $10-20,000 price increase by going to rear drive.

We can do this with the XT4 also, which is 181″ L x 77″ W x 64″ H 

Mercedes GLC: 183″ L x 74″ W x 65″ H and Porsche Macan 184″ L x 76″ W x 64″ H

The GLC starts at $40,700 and Car and Driver had and as tested GLC63 at $103,300. 

Porsche Macan starts at $47,800 and I had it up to $127,180 on their configurator and I didn't even check a lot of the boxes.  

Porsche gets $20,000 per vehicle profit, and they don't do it with front drive and a turbo 4.

quite simply no matter what Cadillac does it won't support the priced for say, the top GLC63 or Macan.

its pointless for Cadillac to go that route.  Their CT6 pricing i think is arguable nearing the zone.  But they simply cannot price their volume models high like the Euros.

GLC63 models are so exceedingly rare, I have never even seen one in the wild.  As far as it's concerned, they exist in paper and press fleets only. The vast vast vast majority of GLCs are 4 cylinders and the people leasing them couldn't tell you why which way the engine faces might matter.

59 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

GLC63 models are so exceedingly rare, I have never even seen one in the wild.  As far as it's concerned, they exist in paper and press fleets only. The vast vast vast majority of GLCs are 4 cylinders and the people leasing them couldn't tell you why which way the engine faces might matter.

 

True so why bother with a CT6-V?  The CT6 sells about 1/10th the volume a GLC does, I can't imagine they will sell more than 500-1,000 CT6-V's per year globally.  They might as well put the CT6 on the LaCrosse platform with a base 3.6 V6 and awd and make the 3.6 TT V6 with AWD the V.  Lexus calls the RX 350 with no engine upgrade the F-sport, so a Cadillac can call anything with with 400 hp a V-series.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

You continue to fall at reading.

I said price class.

That is the problem, Cadillac is in the Volvo, Acura price class.  And really Acura has those Honda loyalists to fall back on, Volvo has really improved over recent years and seems to have some mojo back.  Cadillac is stuck in neutral with Lincoln who can't figure out what they want to be.  I see Infiniti falling behind just because their lineup is rather dated, and there is no flagship vehicle of any kind, the Q70 is one of the oldest vehicles on the market, the QX80 might be the only thing older and more dated.

Cadillac knows exactly what it is, which is what it has been most of its existence.
I question brands moving into entire tiers of segments they've never been in before as 'having no direction or identity' far more readily than Cadillac.

I also call 'significant bullshit' on the whole 'following others', as every brand 'follows' what other brands do in countless ways. It's otherwise known as 'competing'.

11 hours ago, smk4565 said:

That is the problem, Cadillac is in the Volvo, Acura price class.  And really Acura has those Honda loyalists to fall back on, Volvo has really improved over recent years and seems to have some mojo back.  Cadillac is stuck in neutral with Lincoln who can't figure out what they want to be.  I see Infiniti falling behind just because their lineup is rather dated, and there is no flagship vehicle of any kind, the Q70 is one of the oldest vehicles on the market, the QX80 might be the only thing older and more dated.

 

That's not the problem.   The luxury in Cadillac is the size you get at a price point. Being "big as a Cadillac" is an actual thing... 

There is a price point at around $32k where the Germans are selling small crossovers. Cadillac is also selling a small crossover that is slightly larger.   If you're leasing one of these things at $399 a month, you're not getting into a GLC much less a GLC63.  So the advantage is to Cadillac for the XT4 being larger than the very cramped GLA. 

Size is the selling point for Cadillac. It has been for most of Cadillac's lifetime. 

14 hours ago, smk4565 said:

True so why bother with a CT6-V?  The CT6 sells about 1/10th the volume a GLC does, I can't imagine they will sell more than 500-1,000 CT6-V's per year globally.  They might as well put the CT6 on the LaCrosse platform with a base 3.6 V6 and awd and make the 3.6 TT V6 with AWD the V.  Lexus calls the RX 350 with no engine upgrade the F-sport, so a Cadillac can call anything with with 400 hp a V-series.

Why bother with AMG then, no need since MB supposedly the best luxury maker in the world should not need AMG to sell any auto as their base is good enough. 

You know, it is too bad that Cadillac does not have an answer for the X7 or GLK class.  The Escalade is really good, but it is a BOF SUV, so that should not count.  I am not sure if a (possible) XT7 should be built on the same platform as a Buick Enclave Avenir, or a longer wheelbase version.  Cadillac will also need a (possible) XT3 that would be the same size as a Buick Encore just to compete against the luxury cute utes out there.

Any other ideas?

4 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

 

Size is the selling point for Cadillac. It has been for most of Cadillac's lifetime. 

And yet the ATS and CTS are often cited for having the most cramped interiors in their class.  And the 2010-2015 SRX you yourself said had interior space like an X3, even though the exterior size was similar to an X5.

34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

And yet the ATS and CTS are often cited for having the most cramped interiors in their class.  And the 2010-2015 SRX you yourself said had interior space like an X3, even though the exterior size was similar to an X5.

Stop blowing BS, They are no different than the same size crap cramped cars BMW and Especially Mercedes-Benz sells. They are based on the competition and deliver on it. 

Cadillac which has always sold bigger for value should have brought the well selling ATS-L and CTS-L from China here as an update to the current and sold it same price with that added leg room. It would have done well.

1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

And yet the ATS and CTS are often cited for having the most cramped interiors in their class.  And the 2010-2015 SRX you yourself said had interior space like an X3, even though the exterior size was similar to an X5.

The ATS has a bigger interior than the CLA.

The CTS has a bigger interior than the C-Class

The CT6 has a bigger interior than the E-class. 

Price matters. 

The ATS and C-Class don't price overlap much until you get to the V-series / AMG level.

The bulk of C-Class sits inside of the CTS territory. 

You are the only one in the world who measures size class by the exterior.... everyone... government, rental car companies, manufacturers class vehicles by interior room. 

You still haven't completed your assignment.  Give me the ROI for a Cadillac in the GLA/X1-2/Q3 price point having a RWD platform.... how much more would Cadillac sell? Base price must remain around $30k-ish. 

1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

Cadillac will also need a (possible) XT3 that would be the same size as a Buick Encore just to compete against the luxury cute utes out there.

Any other ideas?

no no No No NO NO NO NO!!
Encore is offensively small as a Buick and far too small as a Cadillac. Cadillac's volume and position MUST be taken into account as far as product planning goes. There is no need whatsoever for a teeny tiny Cadillac CUV- there's no business case for it. Thinking that Cadillac can be 'fixed' by slotting 48 different vehicles into their showroom just because another brand or two tries to is absolutely the wrong approach.

No CT3, no XT3.

Well... CT3 if it's a BMW Z3 type car... then def

19 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

The ATS has a bigger interior than the CLA.

The CTS has a bigger interior than the C-Class

The CT6 has a bigger interior than the E-class. 

Price matters. 

The ATS and C-Class don't price overlap much until you get to the V-series / AMG level.

The bulk of C-Class sits inside of the CTS territory. 

You are the only one in the world who measures size class by the exterior.... everyone... government, rental car companies, manufacturers class vehicles by interior room. 

 

You still haven't completed your assignment.  Give me the ROI for a Cadillac in the GLA/X1-2/Q3 price point having a RWD platform.... how much more would Cadillac sell? Base price must remain around $30k-ish. 

That is all true as far as your size comparisons go, but when the ATS came out Cadillac said it was an A4/3-Series/C-class competitor.  Now you say the CTS is a C-class competitor.  So the CTS competes with A4 and 3-series now?  The 3 Germans are in the same segment.

And if we are assuming that interior space is important, why does the C-class outsell the CTS by roughly 8 to 1in the USA.  If Americans want a roomy car and the C-class is $50k and a CTS is $50k, why aren’t people buying a CTS?

Cadillac has no vehicle as small as a Q3 or GLA, if they did make an XT3 then I would say it should be front wheel drive because you aren’t going to go over 300 hp on a compact SUV unless you are crazy like AMG is, and if you don’t have high HP you don’t need rear drive.  Also with the low weight of a Q3 sort of vehicle you probably aren’t as concerned with body roll and weight balance like you are with a bigger vehicle.

18 hours ago, balthazar said:

no no No No NO NO NO NO!!
Encore is offensively small as a Buick and far too small as a Cadillac. Cadillac's volume and position MUST be taken into account as far as product planning goes. There is no need whatsoever for a teeny tiny Cadillac CUV- there's no business case for it. Thinking that Cadillac can be 'fixed' by slotting 48 different vehicles into their showroom just because another brand or two tries to is absolutely the wrong approach.

No CT3, no XT3.

I agree because GMC and Buick can do small $30k SUVs.  But that means that Cadillac has to find growth by going up market and that is something they have tried and failed at since the Allante in the 80’s. 

@smk4565 The competition has mostly moved up in price (except the 3-series which has decontented to stay cheaper).

Cars broken into price class first and size class second.  You don't see people comparing a Sonic 5-door to a Bentley coupe just because they're both EPA Sub-Compacts.  An Impala and a CLA can both be had at $30k but size is secondary to price.... people who want space go with the Impala. 

Same with the CLA and ATS.  People who want a smaller sporty sedan in the $30k - $40k range can look at the smaller CLA or the larger ATS.  The C-Class is out of reach and so is the Bentley. 

By that thinking the Toyota Highlander and Cadillac XT4 are competitors.   I get that people shop price, I can see the cross shop between an ATS and CLA, or an ATS and C-class.   The XT4 will probably get shopped against smaller German SUVs or the GLC/X3/Q5, people probably cross shop the Q3 and Q5 when at the Audi dealer.  

What people compare and cross shop doesn't matter as much as how does Cadillac win?  The only Cadillac that wins is the Escalade (XT5 sells pretty well), and there will be a new Q8, new X7 and new GLS to go with the new Navigator, Alfa Romeo is going to build a 3 row SUV, Jeep has Grand Wagoneer coming, etc.   That is getting real crowded really fast and now Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Ferrari are getting into SUVs. 

@ocnblu   Define and show when the FOLLOWING began. By your statement Cadillac could only follow itself. It for all intents.. is the only member (along with Lincoln) of the luxury set invented in the 1900s that still exists. Remember Mercedes was not always a luxury maker.. not in the beginning. The STANDARD.. was Cadillac.. It fell off when buyers started going from luxury to sport luxury in the early 90s.  Did they follow BMW or Benz.. or simply adopt certain ideas within an emerging segment? By that I mean... BMW followed Cadillac into luxury.. no different right now if the Camaro was a Brand.. and it decided to start luxurizing every model. Cause that's all BMW was.. a sports sedan.. the luxury part came in the mid-80s. Same for Audi

Furthermore.. some who have this idea of RWD being the epitome of luxury really have it all wrong. AWD is the real hero of luxury.. and being able to augment that AWD is even more so.. Cadillac's Sport mode and U get a 20/80 front/rear split, Tour gets 40/60, and Snow mode splits it right down the middle. I love that. In fact I wouldn't be surprised one bit if the reason why AWD is standard in almost all iterations of the CT6 is because Cadillac decided to profitably package an upgrade in that cost them little, but offered a justifiable reason to charge more for the product. The silliness of people talking about a 204 inch, 122 WB large luxury car in the same terms as they would a RWD Camaro is ridiculous. The same goes for the HIGH UP vehicles..aka CUVs. Having a weee bit more power in the XT5 and XT4 as an option is 100.. but the chassis for at leats the XT5, as I haven't driven the XT4 yet, is perfect for 100% of the people buying them. 

 AWD is a luxury. Offering AWD all the time is offering a luxury ALL THE TIME. 

For some reason I find, more often than not, on these forums, that many forum goers feel that limitation of choice is the desire of most Luxury buyers. As a luxury buyer I whole-heartedly would like to disagree with that notion. Marketing should certainly steer buyers in the direction of the AWD version for profit reasons, not to mention performance credibility. While the segment does not demand super performance, having a car this large, a large saloon, being capable of great handling is a plus. The CT6, still imo, is offering AWD for marketing purposes, not to mention built in profit. That is the absolute only reason the Audi A8 sells AWD-only here, yet offers a FWD version in Europe. With this car the absence of the weight penalty usually associated with AWD allows Cadillac to sell an AWD model at 95% of the line-up and still be lighter than many of the single drive competitors

and @smk4565  Great engineering to the rescue.. want to talk lackluster engineering? Call me when BMW devises a way to have a start stop system that doesn't make you feel like you're shaking out of the car... their Start/stop system felt like I was having an epileptic seizure. Seriously. Stop Trolling. NOTHING.. and I mean NOTHING brings out Trolls more than Billy Goats, Mad Dog 20/20, and Cadillac

2 hours ago, Drew Dowdell said:

@smk4565 The competition has mostly moved up in price (except the 3-series which has decontented to stay cheaper).

Cars broken into price class first and size class second.  You don't see people comparing a Sonic 5-door to a Bentley coupe just because they're both EPA Sub-Compacts.  An Impala and a CLA can both be had at $30k but size is secondary to price.... people who want space go with the Impala. 

Same with the CLA and ATS.  People who want a smaller sporty sedan in the $30k - $40k range can look at the smaller CLA or the larger ATS.  The C-Class is out of reach and so is the Bentley. 

and .. people who want an actual great car and not a effin POS with a luxury badge sewn on. 

2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

By that thinking the Toyota Highlander and Cadillac XT4 are competitors.   I get that people shop price, I can see the cross shop between an ATS and CLA, or an ATS and C-class.   The XT4 will probably get shopped against smaller German SUVs or the GLC/X3/Q5, people probably cross shop the Q3 and Q5 when at the Audi dealer.  

What people compare and cross shop doesn't matter as much as how does Cadillac win?  The only Cadillac that wins is the Escalade (XT5 sells pretty well), and there will be a new Q8, new X7 and new GLS to go with the new Navigator, Alfa Romeo is going to build a 3 row SUV, Jeep has Grand Wagoneer coming, etc.   That is getting real crowded really fast and now Rolls, Bentley, Lamborghini, and Ferrari are getting into SUVs. 

3

No... exactly wrong.  

There are price classes AND size classes... usually, a vehicle has to be close in both to get consideration.

The GLA and XT4 are the competitors for each other. They compete in price and they're close enough in INTERIOR space that they compete there too..... it's just that the Cadillac wins there that gets you bent out of shape... because the Cadillac is the better car for the price. 

2 hours ago, Cmicasa the Great said:

@ocnblu

 AWD is a luxury. Offering AWD all the time is offering a luxury ALL THE TIME. 
 

Subaru is a luxury brand now?  😁

Although I agree with you in that I think every Cadillac should just be AWD standard and I think every Cadillac should be turbocharged and electrified in some way.

And as a side note, if FCA can drop these Hellcat engines into everything under the sun, why don't they put a Corvette ZR-1 engine into the Escalade and charge $175,000 for it.  I am sure they can find 2,000 people a year to buy it and why not take their money.

1 hour ago, Drew Dowdell said:

No... exactly wrong.  

There are price classes AND size classes... usually, a vehicle has to be close in both to get consideration.

The GLA and XT4 are the competitors for each other. They compete in price and they're close enough in INTERIOR space that they compete there too..... it's just that the Cadillac wins there that gets you bent out of shape... because the Cadillac is the better car for the price. 

The GLA is the same length as a Chevy Sonic and has less cargo room than it.   I don't feel like the XT4 is that small.   GLB vs XT4 I think will be more valid.   And think of it this way, the GLA is the smaller than the Lexus UX, which is smaller than the Lexus NX which is virtually the same size as the XT4.  

The XT4 may very well be better than the GLA or X1 or Q3, but it is also not really in that segment.  And if Lexus thought the NX was competing in that segment they wouldn't have just introduced another SUV below NX.  There are 3 segments working here.

Differences of a couple inches do not a whole new segment make.

It's price first and then a GENERAL size class.

54 minutes ago, Drew Dowdell said:

Differences of a couple inches do not a whole new segment make.

It's price first and then a GENERAL size class.

So is the XT4 a Lexus NX competitor or UX competitor?  The UX is $33,000 and the NX is $36,000 and the UX is larger than a GLA. 

And a BMW X2 is smaller than a BMW X1, yet the X2 is $2,500 more than the X1.   

This small crossover group is carved up so many ways.