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    Cadillac Is Working On A RWD Sedan To Sit Below ATS


    • Cadillac May Have A Wolf Among the Sheep in the Entry-Level Luxury Class

    The entry-level luxury class could be getting a model from Cadillac.

     

    Dave Leone, Cadillac executive chief engineer said in an interview with Road & Track that they are developing a new sedan to sit under ATS.

     

    "We are working on something below ATS," said Leone.

     

    Leone didn't go into further details about the vehicle but did say "one of our strengths in sedans is that we are known for being rear-wheel drive."

     

    Road & Track speculates the new sedan will use the Alpha rear-drive platform. This gives a Cadillac an edge as all of the entry-level luxury sedans are front-wheel drive based. But using Alpha introduces a big problem. As we have noted in our two ATS reviews, the back seat is quite tight for being a compact luxury sedan. Shrinking it down to something smaller could make the back seat useless.

     

    Price is also a concern since are either below or start at the $30,000 mark. However Cadillac could make a case for using Alpha on a $30,000 vehicle since the Chevrolet Camaro - based on Alpha as well - starts at $25,700.

     

    We'll be keeping an eye on this developing story.

     

    Source: Road & Track

     

    Pic Credit: William Maley for Cheers & Gears

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    And with this news, five dollars says the people who say Cadillac is behind Germany for not having a small RWD car will now say Cadillac just can't compete because it uses Chevy underpinnings.

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    And with this news, five dollars says the people who say Cadillac is behind Germany for not having a small RWD car will now say Cadillac just can't compete because it uses Chevy underpinnings.

    I would wager that your wager is spot on. lol

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    So Very true, but then if Cadillac has a RWD sub compact luxury car. Does that not mean MB and BMW are failing due to their FWD appliances in that same category? Wonder how one will move his goal posts to justify that MB is still superior to Cadillac?

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    So Very true, but then if Cadillac has a RWD sub compact luxury car. Does that not mean MB and BMW are failing due to their FWD appliances in that same category? Wonder how one will move his goal posts to justify that MB is still superior to Cadillac?

    No, I think that will be the point where the ship is jumped and now FWD is supperior to RWD.. in smaller cars****. But if there is anything  luxury about it it MUST, I repeat, MUST be RWD ONLY. Or at least "60-70%" of the power must go to the rear. 

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    Rear drive should give Cadillac an advantage in this segment. I'd also venture to guess that if they start this car at $30,000, they can move the ATS up to about $36,000 and drop the 2.5 liter base engine.

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    And with this news, five dollars says the people who say Cadillac is behind Germany for not having a small RWD car will now say Cadillac just can't compete because it uses Chevy underpinnings.

     

     

    Eff 'em. The Chevy underpinnings of today are on par with anything the Germans have.. The Alpha based Camaro, the Zeta based SS, the current Epsilons Impala and Malibu.. even the D2XX (Cruze/Volt) is a force to be reckoned with.

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    Rear drive should give Cadillac an advantage in this segment. I'd also venture to guess that if they start this car at $30,000, they can move the ATS up to about $36,000 and drop the 2.5 liter base engine.

     

     

    I think that my educated prediction from a few weeks back, base don JDN's words, is that this vehicle.. ready for launch late '17, as an '18 model.. will be of similar size internally to the current ATS, while the ATS(CT3) gets a size bump in line with the ATS-L.. price??? How much U wanna bet maximum on the CT3 will be a +$700 bump from the previous year of teh ATS. This sub-ATS will come in at a relative $29,999

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    Rear drive should give Cadillac an advantage in this segment. I'd also venture to guess that if they start this car at $30,000, they can move the ATS up to about $36,000 and drop the 2.5 liter base engine.

     

     

    I think that my educated prediction from a few weeks back, base don JDN's words, is that this vehicle.. ready for launch late '17, as an '18 model.. will be of similar size internally to the current ATS, while the ATS(CT3) gets a size bump in line with the ATS-L.. price??? How much U wanna bet maximum on the CT3 will be a +$700 bump from the previous year of teh ATS. This sub-ATS will come in at a relative $29,999

     

    If waz u iz sayin' iz tru...WTF is Cadillac doing offering cars in this price range?

     

    I read your insight about the 500 000 units for Cadillac versus Balthazar's, and I must admit, I agree with your vision rather than his, however...in a situation like this...Im with Balthazar and in no way in hell do I want Cadillac to attain 500 000 units with cars that are mostly sold in this price range...THIS does NOT make Cadillac top tier luxury. THIS makes Cadillac more like BMW...hell, more like Chevy....(yeah...I dont really care that it will have RWD)

     

    I envision Cadillac to become THE world's most prolific and most luxurious brand in the world.

    I envision Cadillac to be the Standard of the World again. Full of obnoxious entities that piss of the poor. Because, top 1%ers live a life of luxury that the poor are envious of, but are so over the top that that also pisses them off. And THAT is where I want Cadillac to be. However...

     

    I DONT envision Cadillac selling Cadillacs even below in price to the Buick Envision... (yes...Pun very much intended)

     

    Hell...with the Buick Avista shown,and potentially being built Im having a hard time accepting a Cadillac ATS coupe or sedan even being sold at Cadillac...let alone car smaller and less expensive than an ATS. Id rather have Buick sell the Alpha platformed car...

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    Hmmm, I am under 6' and struggle getting into an ATS....so this must be for elves.

    How much do you weigh? It's relevant... As the volume of the car is not just vertical. I'm 6'3..220 lbs... Handsome as EFF.. And I sat in an ATSV and drive it like it was made for me from the start. Was the rear less than my Impala.. Eff yeah.. But if U have to ride in the rear of anything I drive.. Sit back and ride.. Complain? Get the Eff out

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    The utter lunacy of this reported move is that the CLA & ATS are already the same identical size AND there is no 'size gap' between the ATS & CTS…. so for the billion dollar program to (AGAIN) replace the entry level Cadillac sedan with yet another, then elbow all other models above it up in size AGAIN….. I have no words other than stupidstupidstupidstupidstupid.

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    Rear drive should give Cadillac an advantage in this segment. I'd also venture to guess that if they start this car at $30,000, they can move the ATS up to about $36,000 and drop the 2.5 liter base engine.

     

     

    I think that my educated prediction from a few weeks back, base don JDN's words, is that this vehicle.. ready for launch late '17, as an '18 model.. will be of similar size internally to the current ATS, while the ATS(CT3) gets a size bump in line with the ATS-L.. price??? How much U wanna bet maximum on the CT3 will be a +$700 bump from the previous year of teh ATS. This sub-ATS will come in at a relative $29,999

     

    If waz u iz sayin' iz tru...WTF is Cadillac doing offering cars in this price range?

     

    I read your insight about the 500 000 units for Cadillac versus Balthazar's, and I must admit, I agree with your vision rather than his, however...in a situation like this...Im with Balthazar and in no way in hell do I want Cadillac to attain 500 000 units with cars that are mostly sold in this price range...THIS does NOT make Cadillac top tier luxury. THIS makes Cadillac more like BMW...hell, more like Chevy....(yeah...I dont really care that it will have RWD)

     

    I envision Cadillac to become THE world's most prolific and most luxurious brand in the world.

    I envision Cadillac to be the Standard of the World again. Full of obnoxious entities that piss of the poor. Because, top 1%ers live a life of luxury that the poor are envious of, but are so over the top that that also pisses them off. And THAT is where I want Cadillac to be. However...

     

    I DONT envision Cadillac selling Cadillacs even below in price to the Buick Envision... (yes...Pun very much intended)

     

    Hell...with the Buick Avista shown,and potentially being built Im having a hard time accepting a Cadillac ATS coupe or sedan even being sold at Cadillac...let alone car smaller and less expensive than an ATS. Id rather have Buick sell the Alpha platformed car...

     

     

     

     

    I agree. Cadillac should be offering cars no less than $30K.. but then again.. neither should Benz.. or BMW.. but more so Audi . I hate to admit it.. but in terms of pricing Lexus is the one to watch.. the one to emulate. The ES. comes in at $38K :stupid:  The Lacrosse from Buick comes in at $31K. No way a Cadillac or Benz should be stickering under that.. but the Luxury leader, Mercedes, does just that with the CLA... OH.. edit.. the CLA is now coming in at $32K. I would like to change my original post.. the sub-ATS will come in at $30,999. 

     

    But here's the thing... price could be higher by 2018.. as I said.. "A RELATIVE $29,999"  meaning its equivalent 2 years from now. Again.. I don't they need a sub ATS unless its a niche sports car. I personally always though the Saturn Sky should have been a Cadillac instead. It looked the Art and Science part IMO. Benz needs a sub-C_Class due to CAFE and Euro standards.. Cadillac being a part of the corporate umbrella has Buick-Opel-Vaux/Chevy-Holden/GMC to pull that weight. 

     

    CADILLAC is LUXURY ON PAR WITH BMW, BENZ, AND AUDI, just selling with a Jaguar limited line-up and no marketing. No one I kno, wealthy or not, has yet to tell me that they didn't consider Cadillac luxury. Many have told me that Cadillac simply did not have all of the types of vehicles they were looking to buy when they went onto the showroom floor. With every year we see Cadillac pushing forward with new product that will hopefully fix this issue. 

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    The utter lunacy of this reported move is that the CLA & ATS are already the same identical size AND there is no 'size gap' between the ATS & CTS…. so for the billion dollar program to (AGAIN) replace the entry level Cadillac sedan with yet another, then elbow all other models above it up in size AGAIN….. I have no words other than stupidstupidstupidstupidstupid.

     

     

    I agree. This car better be anything, but a normal sedan miniaturized. The only way I would give it a pass is if they plan on doing what I posted above.. make the ATS the CT2, the ATS-L the CT4.. That would shut some mouths up about rear legroom. I already believe the current CTS is going on Omega and staying exterior size-wise, the same, while taking on more generous interior space. 

     

    Side-Bar: I have to give BMW props for the 3Series and 4Series combo. Wonder why 3Series sales are down?? I bet it has to do with the 4Series GC being on sale looking so much better.. so much beefier, so much more modern.. and all they seemingly did was use a throw-away sketch that was going to their shredder and said.. "Let's make this one too..." :thumbsup:

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    So a CT0?   If the ATS sedan becomes the CT2, ATS coupe becomes CT3, and the CTS becomes the CT4... 

     

     

    I think that BMW thru convention of the door. Having the Grand Coupes in the mix pretty much makes the 4 Series and 6 Series Sedans. I wouldn;t be surprised if the Sedan version of both of those cars are out selling the original Coupe versions. The 4Series outselling the 3Series isn't far off.. and it is proof positive about what I've been saying about Variants.. as the 4 Series beat the 3series in December... I bet because it comes as a Sedan, Coupe, and Convertible... not to mention is better looking.

     

    YUP: I was correct: The 6Series GC is Outselling the Coupe 2:1 also another Link : 

     

     

     

     According to BMW, further ammunition for this cars business case lies in the fact that their 6 Series Gran Coupe outsells its coupe and convertible siblings by quite a margin

     

     

     

     

    I expect the CT0 is an attempt by some as being funny. Its not gonna happen. The Line-Up will most likely be:

     

    CT2= This Sub-ATS

    CT3= ATS

    CT4= ATS Coupe with a possible "GC" 

    CT5=CTS

    CT6

    CT7= El Miraj Coupe (Think S-Class Coupe)

    CT8= a Possible Sedan Version (Think S-Class)

    CT9= a possible Pullman competitor

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    I applaud Cadillac for this, and I'm thrilled with the prospect of another small RWD sedan. But I'm having difficulty seeing how this will work. It seems like using the Alpha platform for this wouldn't allow for a car to be appreciably smaller than the ATS. And still be usable, anyway. It may not be a point of contention for many, but the BMW 3 Series is much roomier in the back than the ATS. It truly leaves room for a car to slot below it. With the ATS already being so tight, and starting so low in price, I wonder about the merit of this decision. Perhaps it'll use a new, smaller platform, instead? That would be awesome.

     

    As for the rest in the segment, the CLA is far removed from anything resembling a compact sport sedan, and it remains to be seen whether BMW's foray into this segment will be FWD or RWD. There are conflicting reports at this time, so it's hard to call. If it's a FWD UKL chassis-based car, Cadillac will certainly have an upper-hand here. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

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    Using the latest thin seat design, they should be able to pull off a new Sub Compact ATS with rear seat room, then the ATS becomes the BTS :P

     

    Personally, I would rather they ignore the subcompact car and just have ATS on up. I am more than happy with a CT3 to CT9 product line.

     

    Buick should be covering the Sub-Compact space. Wake up Johan, your f'ing up again.

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    Well...if a CT2 vehicle is in play and "smaller" than an ATS (CT3), then my dream Cadillac is as follows.

     

    CT1 = A Saturn Sky type roadster to do battle with the upcoming new BMW Z5. Obviously on the Alpha platform and obviously heavily engineered from the Camaro...but  the CT1 being a real 2 seater as the Camaro technically has seats in the back.

     

    CT2 = This sub ATS..I want it to be as close to as possible in all specs to the BMW 2 Series and M2. Length, wheelbase and performance.

     

    CT3 = ATS, slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than a current BMW 3 Series.

     

    CT4 = ATS coupe. Slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than what a BMW 4 Series is. Nix the Buick Avista, let this Buick Avista morph into an ATS coupe with a definite "GC" model.

     

    CT5 = CTS

     

    CT6 =  In the very near future, let this CT6 evolve into a BMW 6 Series GC and a  M-B CLS 63 competitor.

     

    CT7 = El Miraj....and call it the El Miraj if Eldorado is deemed to old phogeyish!

     

    CT8 = S Class competitor. And call it whatever...but not effin CT8. 

     

    CT9 = Roll Royce competitor,  M-B Pullman/Maybach... And call it whatever you want, just dont call it CT8. Rolls Royce and Bentley both have actual names in tjis category,...Cadillac should do the same thing here...Call it the Sixteen.  

      

    CT10 = A convertible...like the Ciel...and call it the Ciel. Either a 2 door, but Id rather a 4 door convertible exactly like the Ciel, based on the CT7/CT8/CT9.

     

    An electric/hybrid supercar along the lines of a Mercedes SLS/Gullwing, without the actual Gullwings and call that car the Evoq. Or Provoq.

     

    Escalade remains...in the very essence of what an Escalade is all about with the name intact!

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    Well...if a CT2 vehicle is in play and "smaller" than an ATS (CT3), then my dream Cadillac is as follows.

     

    CT1 = A Saturn Sky type roadster to do battle with the upcoming new BMW Z5. Obviously on the Alpha platform and obviously heavily engineered from the Camaro...but  the CT1 being a real 2 seater as the Camaro technically has seats in the back.

     

    CT2 = This sub ATS..I want it to be as close to as possible in all specs to the BMW 2 Series and M2. Length, wheelbase and performance.

     

    CT3 = ATS, slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than a current BMW 3 Series.

     

    CT4 = ATS coupe. Slightly larger than what it is now, but slightly smaller than what a BMW 4 Series is. Nix the Buick Avista, let this Buick Avista morph into an ATS coupe with a definite "GC" model.

     

    CT5 = CTS

     

    CT6 =  In the very near future, let this CT6 evolve into a BMW 6 Series GC and a  M-B CLS 63 competitor.

     

    CT7 = El Miraj....and call it the El Miraj if Eldorado is deemed to old phogeyish!

     

    CT8 = S Class competitor. And call it whatever...but not effin CT8. 

     

    CT9 = Roll Royce competitor,  M-B Pullman/Maybach... And call it whatever you want, just dont call it CT8. Rolls Royce and Bentley both have actual names in tjis category,...Cadillac should do the same thing here...Call it the Sixteen.  

      

    CT10 = A convertible...like the Ciel...and call it the Ciel. Either a 2 door, but Id rather a 4 door convertible exactly like the Ciel, based on the CT7/CT8/CT9.

     

    An electric/hybrid supercar along the lines of a Mercedes SLS/Gullwing, without the actual Gullwings and call that car the Evoq. Or Provoq.

     

    Escalade remains...in the very essence of what an Escalade is all about with the name intact!

     

     

    I like where you're going with this, but I think there would be too much overlap at the top end. There needs to be a proper S Class competitor, and something above it, but Idk about both of those, an El Miraj, and Ciel. I think one of the latter would have to serve as one of the former.

     

    And while we're at it, let's see a Cien-esque supercar.

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    Well, the El Miraj is a coupe, the Ciel would be a convertible version of the coupe.

     

    Or the Ciel would be a 4 door convertible of the CT8 or CT9 sedans.

     

    But OK...a Cien-esque super car sounds like a product the world has never seen before. Im all for it!

     

    And, looking back at my list and Casa's list, this is why I still think this naming scheme has Cadillac backed into a corner.

     

    CT2...sub ATS car

     

    Where does a coupe version go?  CT1?

     

    OK...I guess Cadillac wont do any kind of roadster, then...what about convertibles? I guess a new letter will be added, like XT for SUVs...

     

    CT3 is ATS

    CT4 is ATS coupe

     

    CT5 is CTS sedan...

    I guess no CT5 coupe?   cool,  but they do need a BMW 6 Series coupe and  6 SeriesGC competitor...remember, the CT6 is a mid-sized sedan...slightly larger than the current CTS...

    A new letter shall be added?

     

    OK...CT4 and CT7 disagrees with that...

     

    CT7 as far as we know WILL be an El Miraj type coupe...

     

    CT8 is a sedan as so is a CT9....quite possibly...

     

     

    This new naming scheme SUCKS!

    Casa, you could make fun of CT0, but this is where its going...and CT10 and CT11 and CT12 just sounds stupid! Actually...so does CT6 and CT4...

     

    Ive posted something similar before, I aint going down that road again....but I wish Johan would clear up this mess his predecessors created.

    I have faith in him products wise, and Drew has cleared up the confusion that it wasnt Johan to start the alphanumeric CT stuff, I hope he realizes that CT2, CT3, CT4 and so on does not exactly leave much room for logical expansions.

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    Maybe the sub ATS will be offered in a hatchback.  I don't think anyone has a rear drive hot hatch, so it would be unique.  The CLA is 183 inches long, but it also has fwd overhang also, a rwd chassis would have less.  If you look back to the 2002-2007 C-class or the early 2000s 3-series they were about 178 inches long.  Cadillac could make a 179 inch long car, plus if it is 4-cylinder only you don't have as much weight or hood space to worry about.  The ATS could be 184 inches long and there is still a size gap (and power gap) between it and the new car.

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    How much do you weigh? It's relevant... As the volume of the car is not just vertical. I'm 6'3..220 lbs... Handsome as EFF.. And I sat in an ATSV and drive it like it was made for me from the start. Was the rear less than my Impala.. Eff yeah.. But if U have to ride in the rear of anything I drive.. Sit back and ride.. Complain? Get the Eff out

     

    While the backseat is snug in the ATS, that is true of all models in its class and there is more than enough room in the front. I am 5'10", 215 lbs. and I had room to spare up front. The back will always depend on who you are sitting behind but again, this is true of models in the ATS's class.

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    GM did something like this in a very different vein but with a striking level of execution of core deliverables - the kind that could make this plan work.

     

    Look at how the new Camaro SS became almost as good in many areas as the old gen Camaro Z28.

     

    So what Cadillac has to do is just take the ATS RWD winning formula, and shrink the outside while keeping the interior space exactly the same, and just transplant the interior. The ATS interior quality is superior to the CLA, so they don't need to kill themselves over it.

     

    So...what the car really would be is the class leading compact sport sedan if BMW hadn't thrown its curveball of larger size and improved interior quality with the F30 generation. The C Class Benz built on that even more. And it appears that the A4 also has an interior that could have just as easily been in a current A6.

     

    And then if the car performs 100% as good as the ATS 2.5 in its base model, then it's all done and good, and its the right product. 

     

    What I think Cadillac could do to make some room for this model is to use either the 1.5T or 1.6T (from the Cascada).

     

    They should make the VSport version of the car get a 2.0T. 

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      Industry sales are expected to remain at or near record levels, with higher GM retail sales and market share on a year-over-year basis. GM’s deliveries to daily rental companies are expected to decline as a percentage of total sales for the third year in a row. GM will continue to match production with customer demand. Previously announced plans to reduce passenger car production at plants in Lordstown, Ohio and Lansing, Michigan were implemented at the end of January. GM’s operating discipline will help drive continued improvements in brand health and resale values. During January, IHS Markit said GM had the highest overall loyalty to a manufacturer for the second year in a row. Also, Kelley Blue Book gave seven Chevrolet and GMC vehicles awards for outstanding resale value, more than any other manufacturer. Ten all-new or recently redesigned crossovers are expected to drive GM’s 2017 sales results, including two new compact models, which will compete in the industry’s largest segment. Crossover Launches by Brand
      Chevrolet will have the industry’s broadest and freshest lineup of utility vehicles behind the 238-mile range Bolt EV; the 2018 Equinox, which arrives in showrooms soon; and the all-new Traverse, which arrives this summer. At Buick, crossovers are expected to account for as much as 75 percent of retail deliveries, up from 66 percent in 2016, driven by the Encore, Envision and Enclave. GMC, which has the highest average transaction prices of any non-luxury brand, will launch the all-new 2018 Terrain in late summer. It will complement the redesigned Acadia, which went on sale in late summer 2016. Cadillac will benefit from a full year of production of the new XT5 crossover, which is now the second best-selling vehicle in its segment.
    • By William Maley
      If there is one issue that is top of mind for various folks at Cadillac, it is the lack of crossovers. Their sedan-heavy lineup isn't doing them any favors in a marketplace crazy for crossovers and SUVs. The brand does have some breathing room thanks to increasing sales in China, but they know they need crossovers now.
      “It’s left us with the obvious difficulty. The core part of our volume lineup is in the market that’s contracting while we are unable, as good as XT5 and Escalade are, we are unable to fully exploit the updraft that’s taking place in the other half of the market,” said Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen to The Detroit News.
      The bad news is the first of a handful will not arrive till the second half of 2018 according to de Nysschen. The first is a model that will be smaller than the XT5, what we believe will be called the XT3. Some analysts believe the XT3 will be built at Fairfax Assembly Plant in Kansas City, Kansas. Then a full-size crossover slotted between the XT5 and Escalade will come next. We think this could be the sister model to the Chevrolet Traverse and Buick Enclave. Finally, de Nysschen hinted that an even smaller crossover could arrive after 2020.
      That doesn't mean Cadillac isn't working on their sedan lineup either. The XTS is expected to get a refresh later this year. Cadillac will also be launching a sedan to compete with the likes of the Audi A3 and Mercedes-Benz CLA in 2019. A coupe and convertible will join the sedan around the same time. de Nysschen explained the entry-level luxury marketplace is growing and the company wants a piece of it.
      Source: The Detroit News

      View full article
    • By William Maley
      If there is one issue that is top of mind for various folks at Cadillac, it is the lack of crossovers. Their sedan-heavy lineup isn't doing them any favors in a marketplace crazy for crossovers and SUVs. The brand does have some breathing room thanks to increasing sales in China, but they know they need crossovers now.
      “It’s left us with the obvious difficulty. The core part of our volume lineup is in the market that’s contracting while we are unable, as good as XT5 and Escalade are, we are unable to fully exploit the updraft that’s taking place in the other half of the market,” said Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen to The Detroit News.
      The bad news is the first of a handful will not arrive till the second half of 2018 according to de Nysschen. The first is a model that will be smaller than the XT5, what we believe will be called the XT3. Some analysts believe the XT3 will be built at Fairfax Assembly Plant in Kansas City, Kansas. Then a full-size crossover slotted between the XT5 and Escalade will come next. We think this could be the sister model to the Chevrolet Traverse and Buick Enclave. Finally, de Nysschen hinted that an even smaller crossover could arrive after 2020.
      That doesn't mean Cadillac isn't working on their sedan lineup either. The XTS is expected to get a refresh later this year. Cadillac will also be launching a sedan to compete with the likes of the Audi A3 and Mercedes-Benz CLA in 2019. A coupe and convertible will join the sedan around the same time. de Nysschen explained the entry-level luxury marketplace is growing and the company wants a piece of it.
      Source: The Detroit News
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