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  • William Maley
    William Maley

    Review: 2020 Acura RDX A-Spec

      Acura starts to find itself again

    For the past decade, Acura has felt lost at sea. Not sure of what it wanted to be as a brand. This was shown by mixed messaging in their lineup as they weren’t sure to focus on luxury, technology, or sport. This muddled mess of identities would cause a fair amount of issues. But in the past couple of years, Acura started to get its act together thanks in part to new leadership. The first fruits of their efforts came last year in the form of the third-generation RDX. 

    It has been over two years since I last drove an Acura, so when the opportunity for an RDX A-Spec landed on my desk, I took it with both hands. It was time to see what Acura has been up to and if they’re taking a step in the right direction. 

    You Want Presence? You Got It!

    The RDX is the first production model to feature Acura’s newest design language and its no shrinking violet. The front end draws your attention with a large trapezoidal grille paired with a massive Acura emblem. Sitting on either side is Acura’s Jewel-Eye LED headlights that add a distinctive touch. My A-Spec tester takes it further with distinctive front and rear bumpers, 20-inch alloy wheels finished in black, and a special Apex Blue Pearl color that is only available on this trim. This crossover garnered a lot of looks during the week I had, something I hadn’t experience in quite some time.

    Cozy, Polarizing Interior

    The RDX’s interior captures the feeling of being in a sports car with a symmetrical dashboard design that cocoons the front passengers. A rotary drive-mode selector found in the center stack echos the design found in the NSX supercar. While it does emphasize the sporty nature of the vehicle, the position of the knob does make the climate controls a bit hard to reach. A-Spec models have some special touches such as red contrast stitching, a suede panel on the passenger side of the dashboard, and new trim for the instrument cluster that help it stand out. Material and build quality are quite close to some competitors from Germany.

    A set of sport seats with increased bolstering and power adjustments come standard on the A-Spec. I found them to be quite comfortable for any trip length and were able to hold me if I decided to be a bit enthusiastic. Back seat passengers will be plenty comfortable with an abundance of head and legroom. I would have like to see the back seat be able to slide forward and back to offer more comfort. Cargo space is towards the top of the class with 29.5 cubic feet with the rear seats up and 58.9 when folded. There’s also a little storage nook under the cargo floor to stash valuables.

    Intuitive Infotainment?

    Acura’s previous infotainment system drew a lot of ire from people. The dual-screen layout was confusing as some functions were split between the two screens such as changing the audio input. Not helping was the two different control methods for this setup; touchscreen for the bottom portion and a controller for the top screen. Thankfully, Acura has introduced a new infotainment system for the RDX. A large 10.2-inch screen sits on top of the dash and is controlled by a touchpad on the center console. Seeing the touchpad for the first time sent chills down my spine as I thought back to my frustrating experiences with Lexus’ Touchpad Controller. But Acura says this controller is much easier and logical to use than competitors. Okay, challenge accepted.

    Acura’s touchpad controller is slightly different from Lexus’ setup as it is mapped to the screen. So if you want to access the navigation, you tap that part of the pad that corresponds to the screen. This removes the dragging of the finger across the touchpad to get it to the selection you want. This seems quite logical on paper, but I found to be somewhat frustrating. It took me a few days to mind-meld with the system as I was still used to dragging my finger across the touchpad to select various functions. This made simple tasks such as changing presets or moving around in Apple CarPlay very tough.

    There is also a smaller touchpad that controls a small section of the screen. This allows you to scroll through three menus - audio, navigation, and clock. This would prove to be the most frustrating aspect of this system as it didn’t always recognize whenever I scroll down on the touchpad to move to another screen.

    Thankfully, Acura has left a number of physical controls for the audio and climate systems. I’m glad that some luxury automakers aren’t falling into the trap.

    Powertrain Goes Back To Its Roots

    The RDX has always found itself with a different powertrain throughout its various generations. The first version used a turbo-four engine, while the second-generation moved to a V6. For the third-generation, Acura went back to the RDX’s roots and settled on another turbo-four engine. The 2.0L engine punches out 272 horsepower and 280 pound-feet of torque. This is paired with a 10-speed automatic and either front or my tester’s Super-Handling all-wheel drive system.

    The turbo-four is quite a potent engine with little turbo lag when leaving a stop and a seemingly endless amount of power for any situation. The ten-speed automatic is very smooth and quick when upshifting. But it does stumble somewhat when you need a quick shot of speed. 

    I did notice that the 2.0L turbo isn’t a quiet engine when traveling on the expressway, going above 2,000 rpm when traveling at 70 mph. This may explain the slightly disappointing 21.7 mpg average I got during the week. EPA fuel economy figures for the A-Spec SH-AWD are 21 City/26 Highway/23 Combined. The standard RDX models see a small bump in their EPA fuel economy figures.

    Capable Driver

    Acura is no stranger to building a crossover that is good to drive, the larger MDX crossover is a prime example. But the RDX A-Spec takes that a step further. This version gets a slightly stiffer suspension setup which negates a fair amount of body roll on a winding road. The steering firms up nicely when pushed through corners. When going through the daily grind, the RDX A-Spec will let in a few more bumps and road imperfections due to its suspension tuning. Road and wind noise are kept to very minimal levels.

    Welcome Back Acura

    The 2020 RDX shows that Acura is starting to figure out what it wants to be; a brand that offers something playful in the class. The RDX certainly has the qualities with a bold exterior, punchy turbo-four, and a surprising chassis that offers sporty handling and a mostly-comfortable ride. The slightly-confounding infotainment system and poor fuel economy figures do sour it a bit. But the RDX is a very compelling alternative to many compact luxury crossovers.

    It does give me hope that Acura is figuring out who it wants to be and excited to see what comes down the road such as the new TLX.

    How I Would Configure An RDX: For me, I would basically take the exact RDX tester seen here. That will set me back $47,195 after adding destination and $400.00 paint option. Everyone else should look at the Technology package that will get you most of the safety equipment that is part of Acurawatch, along with a 12-speaker ELS audio system, navigation, and parking sensors. It will not break the bank at $41,000 for FWD or $43,000 for AWD.

    Disclaimer: Acura Provided the RDX, Insurance, and One Tank of Gas

    Year: 2020
    Make: Acura
    Model: RDX
    Trim: A-Spec
    Engine: Turbocharged 2.0L DOHC 16-Valve VTEC Four-Cylinder
    Driveline: 10-Speed Automatic, All-Wheel Drive
    Horsepower @ RPM: 272 @ 6,500
    Torque @ RPM: 280 @ 1,600 - 4,500
    Fuel Economy: City/Highway/Combined - 21/26/23
    Curb Weight: 4,015 lbs
    Location of Manufacture: East Liberty, Ohio
    Base Price: $45,800
    As Tested Price: $47,195 (Includes $995.00 Destination Charge)

    Options:
    Premium Exterior Color - $400.00



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    Nice review read, so performance over efficiency which explains the MPG issue. Not a fan of the NSX, so I was not thrilled to see that center stack dial knob and appreciate the feedback on how it was not easy to use. I am honestly surprised that they built it this way when Japanese are such tiny people and reaching so far for a knob to make things work is hard.

    Over all Acura fans will be happy, I do not see this getting conquest sales.

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    I like it a lot.  That infotainment system seems like a huge improvement on the previous dual screen system.  My wife's car has it and I hate it.  They do drive very nice, so that's a huge plus.  Also, Acurawatch safety system is not very intrusive like on some other vehicles.

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    Im liking the 2021 TLX. Interior and exterior.   And with a TT 3.0 V6, I might have a canditate to replace my 2012 eventually.  Again, depending what other cars are available in 2023-2024-2025 because Im kinda  thinking about NOT spending money needlessly...  I wasnt gonna change my TL anytime soon anyway, but Covid reinforced that mindset.   I could FINALLY say that a recent new car has peaked my interest again.  And Im hoping that Acura will keep producing the 2021 TLX until  Im ready to part ways with my 2012 TL in another 3 years or so.  That will make this new gen TLX 3 years old. I dont think Acura will cancel it due to low sales... (Covid economy, CUV/SUV sales reality, etc)  Hope not.    There is nothing else out there in 2020 that I want to own.  Maybe a Cadillac CT5, but it doesnt hit the right buttons within the price range that I want to be in. A CT5 V or Blackwing is where its at with me, and THAT is too much money for me to spend on a car.  

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    Love that they have kept the climate control (and hopefully seat heat/ventilation?) controls outside of the touch screen.  Red seats would be a bit too obnoxious for me.  Given the price similarity I wonder how this compares to the Blazer.

     

     

     

     

     

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    Getting a bit of a ricer vibe from it , but in a good way. Has a sporty look to it- with some power to back it up. Love that blue color! Also liking the mean looking front end....

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    It looks good, ups the ante for Acura/Honda cultmembers, sort of a return to form for them.

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    Problem is Acura wants to position themselves as a performance brand but there are 500+ hp competitors in this segment.  So they aren’t even close to competition on performance. 
     

    Acura is giving $12,000 off the RLX right now before they kill it off.  This is another brand in contraction.

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    There’s a while bunch of performance-oriented sedans out there with less than 500 HP. Not everyone wants or needs that level, and those that do don’t buy often.

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    Yeah 500hp and probably almost 50% more expensive except for Tesla, and projecting a 100% douchebag image driving one.

     

     

     

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Problem is Acura wants to position themselves as a performance brand but there are 500+ hp competitors in this segment.  So they aren’t even close to competition on performance. 
     

    Acura is giving $12,000 off the RLX right now before they kill it off.  This is another brand in contraction.

    Who is adding sedans in a CUV/SUV market?  No One I suspect.  The car sales are no longer there unlike 7-10 years ago.

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    Acura isn’t adding SUV’s either, they have 2 still, most have about 5.  

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    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Problem is Acura wants to position themselves as a performance brand

    They were always a performance brand since the introduction of Acura in North America.  

    Not a brutish, big block 455 V8 engine in a small, compact Civic kinda way.  But with high revving, silky smooth 4 cylinder,s great manual transmissions, great handling like a golf cart kinda way partnered up with "technological" dual overhead cam shafts and variable valve timing in a Civic and Integra.  Leading the way was Acura's Ferrari fighting mid-engine gem 1st gen NSX.  

    The rest of that early line-up, were not torque monster cars. Were not high horsepower behemoths. What they were, were sporty oriented, great handling, mid level luxury cruising sedans.  The compact car Integra early on and well into its 2nd and 3rd generation were sporty, zippy and peppy things.    Fun cars to drive.    A different, very Honda approach to performance...

    And they lost that in the early 2000s.  

    In reality, all Acura (and Honda) is doing now, is just going back to its 1980s roots.  So, not a problem...

    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    but there are 500+ hp competitors in this segment.

    What Balthy said...

    And this was never Acura's image to begin with.  So...not a problem. 

    5 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    So they aren’t even close to competition on performance. 

    Acura was always a different kind of performance. Had a different approach to performance. A different angle if you will. 

    Actually, BMW first did this angle of performance with their 2002 in the 1970s.  Acura's cars emulated that. But with FWD instead of RWD.   

     

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    Acura builds 2 FWD crossovers with near segment bottom power.  And they have the TLX with currently segment bottom power and the Type S that is coming is still less powerful than CT5-v I think and the Acura is wrong wheel drive with a 57/43 weight balance.

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    Concerning Honda/Acura. Being FWD on their smaller cars like the Civic or the ILX  is not really an issue.  

    On their mid level CUVs and TLX, being FWD with their SH-AWD  system or PAWS really is not an issue.  The SH-AWD system or PAWS takes care of any RWD bias there is because Acura's systems are that good in that all important fun in handling  category...  Which those systems are also available in their bigger CUVs. 

    Concerning Acura, their problem from the 2000s all the way to 2020 is not about wrong wheel drive. 

    Their problem was a lack of focus and eye off the ball of what their cars really mean to their buyers.  And of course, really ugly front fascias and really porky vehicles that stopped being about fun driving characteristics with bulky, old looking interiors.

    Acuras (and Hondas) of the 1980s and 1990s, had just about the industry's most youthful looking cars exterior wise and their interiors were simple, driver oriented with sportiness in mind.  

    The handling of their cars during this heyday were spirited and fun.

    And then the 2000s came along and Honda/Acura became...old man cars.    

    Acura always reminded me of what Oldsmobile used to be in the 1950s/1960s/1970s and certain 1980s models.  About mid-level 'sporty' luxury.  Acura, I felt, replaced Oldsmobile in the market place in the 1990s. 

    And then, I felt, Acura BECAME Oldsmobile in EVERY sense of the way. In that Acura became a shadow of its former self, became  stale and 'old' in the 2000s EXACTLY how Oldsmobile became that in the 1980s and 1990s. 

    Front wheel drive IS Acura's image.

    NOW...its SH-AWD and  PAWS.

    Acura successfully marketed this SH-AWD thing.

    Acura is just now, redefining and re-engineering their cars and CUVs to fit EXACTLY that image and infusing that DNA SUCCESSFULLY into their cars and CUVs.    Acura cars and CUVs are JUST NOW, getting back that fun to drive quotient they once had in the 1980s and 1990s.

    Is it too late?   Only time will tell.  Time ran out on Oldsmobile as in the mid-to late 1990s, Oldsmobile got back on track. But it was too little too late for Oldsmobile.  Will it be the same for Acura?

    But one thing is for sure....Acura does NOT need RWD, does NOT need 500 HP.  If Acura does THAT, then they will surely be doomed.   Acura is ALL ABOUT the fun-to-drive quotient.   

    I mentioned Oldsmobile and how Acura to me replaced Oldsmobile in the marketplace.   

    I should also include BMW.  Acura closely resembles BMW.   Acura is Japan's BMW.  A FWD (and now SH-AWD)  version of BMW (of the 1970s -1990s)   

    BMW has became just another CUV company with ALL their vehicles becoming fat and bloated AWD things.  Lots of HP, but disconnected to the road because of all that heft and drive by wire bullshyte they have incorporated in their driving characteristcs.

     Acura has tried to get their cars to be more connected to the driver as of late and made their cars more responsive and more fun for the driver...

    One does NOT need 500 HP to be fun to drive.  I think Acura has finally found the right mixture for fun to drive cars with just the RIGHT AMOUNT of HP and weight and SH-AWD or PAWS.   

    The BMW M5 has OVER 500 HP.   Closer to 600 HP with 500 some odd ft/lbs of torque.  This M5 is the FIRST M5 to NOT BE RWD.  Its AWD.  I havent heard ANYBODY say that the M5 is fun to drive...   And BMWs were at one time...fun to drive...

    Ill repeat.  Acuras need not be 500plus HP.    Acuras just need to be fun to drive...  And they are fast becoming so... 

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    They are doing enough to survive, but competition is far greater these days compared to their heyday of the 90s and early 2k.  Tesla has eaten up a lot of that market of entry lux vehicles with the 3 and Y, Porsche is no longer just a sports car company, Koreans are moving upmarket and investing a lot of coin attempting to do so.

     

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    It is rather interesting that while Nissan/Infiniti are circling the drain, Acura is struggling because of what the Koreans are doing. 

    Oldsmobile reached its sales peak in 1986 when half of the models sold were the rear-drive G-body Cutlass Supreme models.  Once that was replaced by the W-body in 1988, Olds was losing lot of sales (at least until the first Aurora).  By the time the Intrigue and the Alero showed up, Olds was on its way out for good.  If Acura was meant to replace Olds, it has wildly succeeded.  BMW of course is a tougher nut to crack.  Pontiac has been replaced by Nissan and Honda/Acura will probably replace Nissan sooner than any of us think.

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    Ill go a step further.

    What @frogger said about the Koreans...

    Hyundai is wonderfully replacing Chevrolet cars.  The Elantra is doing in the marketplace what the Cavalier/Cobalt and Cruze did in the market and what Chevrolet failed to do as where Hyundai is succeeding.  To SUSTAIN people interested in the car.  Hyundai is also succeeding where Chevrolet failed big time with Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze is that Hyundai seems to have a POSITIVE public image on the Elantra as where Chevrolet always had negativity surrounding its image with the Cavalier/Cobalt/Cruze trio.  

    The Sonata seems to be Hyundai's equivalent to what an Impala was to Chevrolet. An upscale, classy Chevrolet with some styling pizzazz.  This new generation Sonata has gone back to the droopy faced Sonata's image.  Call that Sonata ugly if you will, that Sonata made a splash in the marketplace and lost that momentum when they revised and retracted the aggressive styling on the next gen.  This new gen, which actually looks like Chevy's last gen Malibu, seems to get back that mojo. 

    KIA will replace Nissan.  I see KIA as a modern form of Datsun. If KIA doesnt get visions of grandeur.  The managers of KIA should let Hyundai and Genesis handle the higher end stuff. KIA will do wonders if they handle the lower end stuff.     

    Honda will just continue to be Honda.   

    Genesis is replacing Infiniti quite easily.   Acura better be careful and not let Genesis steal their food off their table.  Its up to Acura at this juncture to not let that happen.  GM dropped the ball on Pontiac, Oldsmobile.  Spent tooo much money on Saturn, but had a good starting point, but flubbed it.  Spent unnecessary money buying and trying to save SAAB. THAT money could have been spent on the road to success on Oldsmobile and perhaps, Oldsmobile would have STILL been here TODAY had GM not wasted their time on money on SAAB...

    BMW will not be replaced by anybody.  What I meant to say above was that Acura is  kinda Japan's BMW.  But with FWD (SH-AWD) instead of RWD.

    BMW is just killing itself.  BMW has just become just another CUV manufacturer with a few expensive, bloated sedans and coupes in the line-up.   IF EVs ever become a thing and replace ICE (which I think WILL happen), TESLA will eventually replace BMW. Especially now that autonomous driving pods may have been put to rest for good BECAUSE of Covid19. 

    Acura could EASILY make fun to drive EVs and remain faithful to their fun to drive image as Acura in the future if EVs become the norm, like I have already stated, because it seems as Acura is in line of righting their ship.   I think BMW has gone tooo far off course that it seems almost impossible to get back to their roots.   Tooooo many folk just dont know about fun, handling BMWs anymore.  BMW has built toooo many bloated sedans and CUVs    SAVs  (yeah right)  for people to give a shyte about driving dynamics and about BMWs anymore.  When the next "in" car company comes along with a new generation of drivers in the next decade, I think BMW is done for.  Tesla could be that company.  But one thing is for sure, BMW is on the way out. I see the signs. In hindsight, the signs are the same ones as how Cadillac was going down in the 1980s and 1990s... 

     

     

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    I don't see where Oldsmobile fits and would have enough sales to be around still.  Do we really need more 1.5t, 2.0t and 3.6L CUV's from GM? 

     

     

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    42 minutes ago, frogger said:

    I don't see where Oldsmobile fits and would have enough sales to be around still.  Do we really need more 1.5t, 2.0t and 3.6L CUV's from GM? 

     

    Buick and GMC seem to cover the filler niche between Chevy and Cadillac pretty well..

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    To be fair, Oldsmobile had a hand with GM's initial DOHC 4 and 6 cylinder engines. Lotus did Chevrolet's first DOHC V8 in the Corvette, but Oldsmobile did their own DOHC and Cadillac used it.  More precisely, Cadillac "hired" Oldsmobile to do their DOHC V8 and Oldsmobile did  a version of that to use as well. 

    If a different timeline had occurred and Oldsmobile had survived, I think Oldsmobile would be on the cutting edge of automotive trends right about now so I dont think Oldsmobile would have been doing  1.5t, 2.0. and 3.6 liter V6 CUVs.   I think Oldsmobile would be doing EV CUVs right about now, trying to compete with Tesla.  And for the last 3-4 years.  I think Oldsmobile would have used the Bolt platform to do their own CUV with it.  Oldsmobile would have probably used the Volt, to do their own version and Opel, would have badge engineered the Olds version rather than Chevy's.  

    I get this vibe as Oldsmobile was doing turbos first in the 1960s, before Chevy with its Corvair. Oldsmobile saw DOHC from the Japanese in the 1980s and did their very own in the mid-80s with the Quad 4, and then Shortstar V6 waaaay before any other GM division.   Oldsmobile did GM's first lux oriented SUV in the late 1980s with Bravada with the old S-10 based Blazer.  LATE 1980s...Waaaaay ahead of the SUV craze. Luxury or otherwise.  Waaaay before any BMW SAVs or Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer editions. Waaaay before OJ Simpson Bronco super slow speed chases....   Waaaaay before Jurassic Park Wrangler or Mercedes Benz MLs...   Waaaaay before Navigators and Escalades and RAV4s and Lexus RXs...

    And I think this trend of Oldsmobile being ahead of trends were gonna continue. 

    But...we will NEVER know...

    Things happen the way they do because it is the way its suppose to be...

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    BMW worldwide outsold Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis combined last year, so I think they are doing just fine.

     

    Acura might be able to pick up Infiniti’s leftovers if they fizzle from the market.  But you can get the same performance Acura has from a Sonata, Edge, RAV4 or whatever other garden variety car is out there.

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    20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    BMW worldwide outsold Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis combined last year, so I think they are doing just fine.

     

    Nah. They are not.

    Like I said. They are just like anybody else doing shytty CUVs.

    Like I said, when another "in" car company comes in to charm the masses, BMW is done for.  

    BMW does NOT do CUVs better than anybody else.  They do NOT do memorable CUVs. There are no 2002 CUV equivalents. No M badged 3 or 5 Series cars or CUVs that charm today. No CUV E36 or E 46 equivalent.  No Z3 or  Z8 or 7 Series saloon James Bond CUV equivalent movie star...

    They just do the same ol same ole. Like everybody else.  They are riding on the coattails of those past vehicles. But they are NOT charming any new drivers.  New drivers are buying them BECAUSE of their past.  But when another  enthusiast car maker takes the market by storm, BMW is done for.  

    In other words. The X5 and X6 have lost that loving feeling they once had.  The X7 is a disgusting design. Neither CUV just mentioned is gonna  carry the BMW flame to the next generation of BMW lovers...  The X3 and X1 are just...well, they are just the same ole same ole I was talking about. No better than a KIA RIO or Ford Escape...

    THIS is what happened to Cadillac.  Cadillac too, was outselling Mercedes and BMW in the very 1990s that BMW enthusiasts all go  googoo gaagaa with E30 M3s,  E36 M3s, E46 M3s,  E34 M5 inline 6 AND V8, E39 M5s.  Cult classic Z8s and Z3s... And Cadillac...was outselling them.  But by the late 1990s. A different story all together. Same with BMW now.   Tesla has taken a fair share of market share from BMW and EV sales are still very very niche. Even Tesla sales are niche.  They are growing fast, and at the expense of many auto manufacturers. Not just BMW.  But Tesla has got that same type of following that BMW enjoyed in the 1970s/1980s and 1990s. Its taken Tesla just a decade to achieve what BMW achieved  in 30. 

    Irony. 

    What Cadillac did to their image in that same 30 year span that BMW took advantage of, BMW flubbed itself in just less than 20.  

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    9 minutes ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Nah. They are not.

    Like I said. They are just like anybody else doing shytty CUVs.

    Like I said, when another "in" car company comes in to charm the masses, BMW is done for.  

    BMW does NOT do CUVs better than anybody else.  They do NOT do memorable CUVs. There are no 2002 CUV equivalents. No M badged 3 or 5 Series cars or CUVs that charm today. No CUV E36 or E 46 equivalent.  No Z3 or  Z8 or 7 Series saloon James Bond CUV equivalent movie star...

    They just do the same ol same ole. Like everybody else.  They are riding on the coattails of those past vehicles. But they are NOT charming any new drivers.  New drivers are buying them BECAUSE of their past.  But when another  enthusiast car maker takes the market by storm, BMW is done for.  

    In other words. The X5 and X6 have lost that loving feeling they once had.  The X7 is a disgusting design. Neither CUV just mentioned is gonna  carry the BMW flame to the next generation of BMW lovers...  The X3 and X1 are just...well, they are just the same ole same ole I was talking about. No better than a KIA RIO or Ford Escape...

    THIS is what happened to Cadillac.  Cadillac too, was outselling Mercedes and BMW in the very 1990s that BMW enthusiasts all go  googoo gaagaa with E30 M3s,  E36 M3s, E46 M3s,  E34 M5 inline 6 AND V8, E39 M5s.  Cult classic Z8s and Z3s... And Cadillac...was outselling them.  But by the late 1990s. A different story all together. Same with BMW now.   Tesla has taken a fair share of market share from BMW and EV sales are still very very niche. Even Tesla sales are niche.  They are growing fast, and at the expense of many auto manufacturers. Not just BMW.  But Tesla has got that same type of following that BMW enjoyed in the 1970s/1980s and 1990s. Its taken Tesla just a decade to achieve what BMW achieved  in 30. 

    Irony. 

    What Cadillac did to their image in that same 30 year span that BMW took advantage of, BMW flubbed itself in just less than 20.  

    SUVs sell, every one makes them.  You are out of business without SUVs, and Acura only has 2, they need more.  
     

    BMW is #2 luxury car in the world, their cars weigh less and handle better than Tesla’s.  And BMW has plenty of fast cars still.  Just a 550i is faster than any Cadillac ever made, not even talking M models.  The 7-series has a 205 mph top speed, faster than a C8.  How much more performance do they need?

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    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    BMW is #2 luxury car in the world,

    No they are not...

    Like Mercedes Benz.

    In Europe, BMW sells econoboxes to the European masses...  More so even than Mercedes Benz. 

    We always go down that same route...

    You confuse OVERALL sales with the actual luxury cars BMW produces...   

     

    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    their cars weigh less

    barely...

    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    handle better than Tesla’s.

    definitely not...  

    You like Sandy Munro?

    Well Sandy likes BMWs. He also likes the Tesla Model 3. And HE says that the Model 3's handling is reminiscent of how BMW 3 Series used to drive and handle...

    I could find you the link. Its easy.  He says it MULTIPLE times. ESPECIALLY when he was on  Autoline Detroit After Hours.  And I KNOW you have listened to those...so I DONT NEED to post anything...  

    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And BMW has plenty of fast cars still.  Just a 550i is faster than any Cadillac ever made,

    Fast is NOT what sells enthusiast cars...

    25 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     How much more performance do they need?

    They dont. 

    But YOU keep on missing the point.

    It AINT about horsepower and speed and performance.

    Its about FUN TO DRIVE...

    And ALL THAT WHAT IT ENTAILS...

    And BMW lost THAT characteristic a loooong time ago...and much like yourself that doesnt know what that is...BMW has forgotten and does not know what that means.

    Drive by wire, disconnecting the driver from the road through hefty AWD systems to put down the enormous amounts of torque and HP the cars make to the idiotic gesture control technology in their interiors...

    ▻ 2016 BMW 7 Series - Gesture Control on Make a GIF

     

    How to Design Touch Gesture Recognition UIs | Adobe XD Ideas

    all have contributed to BMW's vehicles straying far far awaaaay  in what used to make a BMW a BMW and what was quite unique the automotive world. A fun car to drive. 

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    frogger

    Posted (edited)

    The days of BMW doing simple RWD sport sedans with a bit of luxury are over because everyone wants faster numbers.. more HP, lower 0-60, more ultimate grip.  Everything is digital now for all mfgs, it is a lot easier to drive fast without skill with cars basically doing the work for you and removing risk with torque vectoring AWD systems and nannies, but the connection to the road for the driver is gone, whether sedans, CUVs or even sports cars.   BMW is doing very well regardless, their sales went up in 2019 and USA is not their core market, it is less than 20% of their sales.  Just because they don't build what they used to and you romanticize but bought something that wasn't anything like them doesn't really matter, the market has spoken.

     

    Oh and  an Acura fan poking fun at BMW Infotainment is priceless..

     

     

     

    Edited by frogger
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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    I get this vibe as Oldsmobile was doing turbos first in the 1960s, before Chevy with its Corvair.

    To set the record straight: the same year- 1962.

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    45 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Just a 550i is faster than any Cadillac ever made, not even talking M models.

    "Fast" refers to top speed. Nearly every BMW sold here is limited to 155MPH. The '20 M550i is limited to only 130 MPH. Multiple Cadillacs have exceeded 180 MPH. Multiple Cadillacs have gone 200.
    You certainly didn't mean "fast".

    If you meant 'quick' --which refers to acceleration-- a 2019 550i claimed 3.9 sec to 60, slower than a number of Cadillacs. The '20 M550i claims 3.6 to 60 (still; Automobile called it "unexciting"), the '19 CTS-V was tested at 3.7, a virtual tie. Of course- this is only bragging rights (if anyone cared to stick around and listen to a BMW owner talk... about anything). No one anywhere is drag racing a 5-series.

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    22 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    "Fast" refers to top speed. Nearly every BMW sold here is limited to 155MPH. The '20 M550i is limited to only 130 MPH. Multiple Cadillacs have exceeded 180 MPH. Multiple Cadillacs have gone 200.
    You certainly didn't mean "fast".

    If you meant 'quick' --which refers to acceleration-- a 2019 550i claimed 3.9 sec to 60, slower than a number of Cadillacs. The '20 M550i claims 3.6 to 60 (still; Automobile called it "unexciting"), the '19 CTS-V was tested at 3.7, a virtual tie. Of course- this is only bragging rights (if anyone cared to stick around and listen to a BMW owner talk... about anything). No one anywhere is drag racing a 5-series.

    Ok quick, I have seen tests of the M550i at 3.6 seconds as you stated and the M5 at 2.9.   The M760 and M8 are in the 3’s so are the Alpinas.  Even the Supra and Z4 have sub 4 second 0-60 and plenty of handling prowess. 

    I am not a BMW fan and never was, but to criticize their performance compared to any luxury brand from Asia or America is ridiculous.  Aside from the NSX the most powerful Acura is like 315 hp and it is on a Honda minivan platform so I don’t want to hear about “driver engagement” on anything Acura makes outside of the NSX which sells like 200 a year.

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    I watched TFL Car track test an Infiniti QX50 which has similar performance numbers to the RDX against a Mercedes GLC43 and it wasn’t event remotely close and we aren’t even talking GLC63.  
     

    Suggesting any Acura outside of NSX is on par with a BMW or Mercedes is like saying a Honda Accord has performance and fun factor to rival a Camaro or Mustang.

    And even the NSX is 1 second slower around the Nurburgring than the BMW M5. NSX is over 30 seconds a lap behind the AMG GT Pro.  Acura doesn’t know performance.
     

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    BMW in reality was always an econobox...  Nothing more. Nothing less...  More PLEBEIAN than Mercedes...

    That aside. I can concede that reality and admit that their cars were engaging to drive.

    However, when I hear stuff like this:

    1 hour ago, frogger said:

    Everything is digital now for all mfgs, it is a lot easier to drive fast without skill with cars basically doing the work for you and removing risk with torque vectoring AWD systems and nannies, but the connection to the road for the driver is gone, whether sedans, CUVs or even sports cars

    Im the one that laughs.

    Excuses is all I hear trying to defend a dying company.  Oh...BMW is dying. Like you and @smk4565 is saying...

    CUVs are what is selling.  Aint it sad that BMW...JUST to stay alive is JUST selling CUVs?

    The famous and lauded BMW? Peddling CUVs?  And you defend that?  Puhlease...

    1 hour ago, frogger said:

    Oh and  an Acura fan poking fun at BMW Infotainment is priceless..

    Something you might not know...

    I HATE HONDA AND ACURA!!!   

    Always did. 

    Bought a 2012 Acura TL SH-AWD because there was nothing then that I cared to own in the 50 000 dollar Canadian price range. Just like now in 2020. Nothing in 2020 in  that same price range that I care to own.

    I settled for the TL.  SETTLED being the key word here.  OH...I like my car. I LOVE my car.  Why?

    Well...it aint for the looks that is for sure. Its one ugly POS.   But it looks like nothing else on the road. And all that triangular and angular lines it has, it reminds me of an F117 Stealth Fighter. That too, is one ugly mother. But its THAT very reason why I LOVE my TL.  Contradictory? YES!!!   But the TL has contradictory styling designs...  But usually, Im not the one to like ugly cars just because they are ugly.  Its just happens that the TL is an exception. 

    It aint for the driving characteristics either that I love my TL. Its got front heavy plowing like a heavy FWD car when it turns corners on dry pavement. But driving fast enough, the SH-AWD system saves my ass and makes the turn for me. But that is not why I love my TL.  I hate the front heavy FWD bias its got during normal driving.

    In the snow, SH-AWD IS fun.  So...chalk up a reason why I love my TL. But I hate winter.  So...that too is contradictory statement...

    But really, Its mostly the naturally aspirated 300 horses and 280 something ft/lbs of torque that the SH-AWD system controls so well that puts a smile to my face while accelerating forward that I love. 

    But...I NEVER liked Honda. Acura even less in the 1980s and 1990s and well into the 2000s.  HATE HATE HATE VTEC. Not the tech.  but the whole VTEC just kicked in yo with the baseball cap on sideways and the whole Civic SI thing.

    I just recently maybe a short decade ago, or less, that I started respecting what an Integra GSR/Type R is all about.  HATED those cars with a PHOQUING passion before then. 

    I HATE the TLX. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT

    The 2021 TLX looks promising.

    Now...after what I said, does that look like Im a Honda fanbois.  

    PS:  I HATE BMW WORSE than I HATE ON HONDA...

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    If you read what I said about Acura....I NEVER compared BMW to Acura...

    I just said that Acura emulates BMW the way BMW  was fun to drive with RWD in the 1970s and 1980s, Acura being a Japanese equivalent with FWD.  FUN TO DRIVE.  

    I NEVER once mentioned Acura's performance.  The NSX was the image of Honda's VERSION of performance is what I said...and fun to drive was THAT performance metric...

     

     

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    You know...

    What makes this weird.  Is that over the years in automotive forums. Ive been called a Ford fanbois, Ive been called a  Ive been called a Honda fanbois.  Ive been called Ferrari fanbois. 

    Firstly. Im NOT a fanbois of anything. Well...maybe muscle cars. I could be called a muscle car fanbois, but I was never ever called one.

    Secondly. I have NEVER EVER been called a Pontiac or Oldsmobile Fanbois.  (JUST LOOK AT MY NAME AND AVATAR for Christ's sake...)   

    Im not exactly a Ferrari fanbois, but I do like Ferraris more than any other exotic. I prefer Vettes over Ferraris, but that type of car is really not my cup of tea. MUSCLE CARS ARE!!! 

    MUSCLE CARS!!!

    In the 12 or so years that Ive been posting in automotive forums., in the way I wax poetic about 442s, Trans Ams, and muscle cars in general, it would seem only normal for me to be labeled a Pontiac or Oldsmobile or muscle car fanbois.  But no!

    Ive defended Ford in the past and now Honda vehemently, but I guess that confuses people....

    I have confessed my hatred for BMW many times, Honda a tad less, but because I have advertised that I own an Acura, that makes me a fanbois...  

    But me waxing poetic about crappy handling muscle cars, having extinct American brand Pontiac Trans Am chickens and equally extinct american brand Oldsmobile as my automotive forum name for 12 years does not make me a fanbois...

    Im kinda sad actually. Maybe I got to be more vocal and in your face about Pontiac and Oldsmobile so I could get the right brand fanbois recognition then!

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    smk4565

    Posted (edited)

    What BMW was 40 years ago doesn’t have an effect on what they are now.  If the 2002 was around now no one would buy it.  Look at Mini, small cars don’t sell.
     

    Everyone survives off SUVs, it is the #1 selling body style.  Not having 5 SUVs in your lineup is just foolish, whether you are a luxury line or not.  Look at Ford/Lincoln and that are killing all cars but Mustang.  BMW didn’t kill the 3-5-7-series they are still there as they always were, people just pick the SUV instead.

    Edited by smk4565
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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    What BMW was 40 years ago doesn’t have an effect on what they are now.  If the 2002 was around now no one would buy it.  

    Funny...

    You keep on shytting on Cadillac from 40 years ago and look at today's Cadillacs through that lense.

    But here about BMW, you seem to defend BMW on shytting on its heritage and that BMW is NOT what it was 40 years ago...

    The thing is...40 years ago is what made BMW sell the amounts it sells today, but NOTHING it sells today resembles what BMW are.  

    And you say that as it was a positive for BMW but a negative for Cadillac?

    The thing is...Cadillac does NOT make shyt cars anymore...there are NO Cateras or V8-6-4s around. 

    WTF???!!!

    The thing is, Cadillac is actually building brand recognition. Ever so slowly.  BMW is actually killing its brand image and you and @frogger seem to be ignoring that...

    Acura did the same thing Cadillac did and what BMW keeps on doing....

    Acura killed its brand image. Its restoring it.  BMW is not...  Listen. It was fun discussing Acura, BMW and Cadillac. But Ive gotten bored by it.  Its deja vu for me this conversation.  Ive had it about Cadillac since the 1990s, and back then I was defending blindly Cadillac in the same blind way you and @frogger are doing with BMW now.

    Im moving on to other things...

    Acuras still bore me to death. Especially CUVs from Acura.  CUVs in general.  

    I guess you and @frogger could knock your socks off with BMW's super awesome X1s, X3s, X5s, X6s and now the X7...because sales talks and CUVs are soooooo much fun to talk about in so called enthusiast car forums...

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    I drove by my Acura dealership today on my way to my son's house for dinner with the wife. The one thing we do still during this pandemic is dinner with our kids.

    The Acura dealership had a few cars in the used lot and there were a few new Acura's at the back of the lot, everything was RDX or MDX. Still there and still surviving on selling just 2 models of a CUV that leaves lots to be considered, but clearly surviving.

    Interesting that they do not have a bigger stable as the luxury division of Honda, you would think they would have one of every CUV Honda makes as a luxury model. 🤔

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    Ferrari has 0 SUVs, Lambo has 1, bentley has 1 Rolls has 1, maserati has 1, Tesla JUST added #2... how are these luxury brands surviving without 5??
    Maybe acura isn't planning on carpet-bombing every vehicle segment and continually pushing for sales above all else. I mean, it's possible, you know.

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    12 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    BMW worldwide outsold Acura, Lexus, Infiniti and Genesis combined last year, so I think they are doing just fine.

    BMW sold 2.5 million last year. Honda/Acura sold 5.3 million.

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    10 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Funny...

    You keep on shytting on Cadillac from 40 years ago and look at today's Cadillacs through that lense.

    But here about BMW, you seem to defend BMW on shytting on its heritage and that BMW is NOT what it was 40 years ago...

    The thing is...40 years ago is what made BMW sell the amounts it sells today, but NOTHING it sells today resembles what BMW are.  

    And you say that as it was a positive for BMW but a negative for Cadillac?

    The thing is...Cadillac does NOT make shyt cars anymore...there are NO Cateras or V8-6-4s around. 

    WTF???!!!

    The thing is, Cadillac is actually building brand recognition. Ever so slowly.  BMW is actually killing its brand image and you and @frogger seem to be ignoring that...

    Acura did the same thing Cadillac did and what BMW keeps on doing....

    Acura killed its brand image. Its restoring it.  BMW is not...  Listen. It was fun discussing Acura, BMW and Cadillac. But Ive gotten bored by it.  Its deja vu for me this conversation.  Ive had it about Cadillac since the 1990s, and back then I was defending blindly Cadillac in the same blind way you and @frogger are doing with BMW now.

    Im moving on to other things...

    Acuras still bore me to death. Especially CUVs from Acura.  CUVs in general.  

    I guess you and @frogger could knock your socks off with BMW's super awesome X1s, X3s, X5s, X6s and now the X7...because sales talks and CUVs are soooooo much fun to talk about in so called enthusiast car forums...

    Cadillac still builds plenty of bad cars now.  The XT5 is lackluster, the XT4 with a range topping 237 hp, the XT6 which is a warmed over Acadia that can’t even match up with a Kia Telluride and those are Cadillac’s top 3 sellers.

    At least BMW puts neat 500 hp in the X3 and 600 in X5 and X6.  There is at least performance in their crossovers.  BMW makes a Z4 sports car, Cadillac has none.  
     

    Problem with  being an enthusiast is that is a small percentage of buyers.  And even a lot of enthusiasts want SUVs, look at Lamborghini, the SUV is over 50% of their sales.  
     

    Sadly at the rate we are going there won’t be many sedans left.

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    9 hours ago, balthazar said:

    Ferrari has 0 SUVs, Lambo has 1, bentley has 1 Rolls has 1, maserati has 1, Tesla JUST added #2... how are these luxury brands surviving without 5??
    Maybe acura isn't planning on carpet-bombing every vehicle segment and continually pushing for sales above all else. I mean, it's possible, you know.

    Ferrari has an SUV coming and Bentley wants a 2nd since they killed the Mulsanne off.

    Those guys are also real small volume players that only exist due to being part of a parent company with the exception of Ferrari who makes as much money off merchandise as they do cars.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    It's too late for ferrari & bentley- they're going to be discontinued because they don't have 5 SUVs. It's impossible for them to survive 1 more day.

    "small volume players that are part of a parent company"
    You mean like Acura???
     

    Edited by balthazar
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    4 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Cadillac still builds plenty of bad cars now.  The XT5 is lackluster, the XT4 with a range topping 237 hp, the XT6 which is a warmed over Acadia that can’t even match up with a Kia Telluride and those are Cadillac’s top 3 sellers.

    At least BMW puts neat 500 hp in the X3 and 600 in X5 and X6.  There is at least performance in their crossovers.  BMW makes a Z4 sports car, Cadillac has none.  
     

    Problem with  being an enthusiast is that is a small percentage of buyers.  And even a lot of enthusiasts want SUVs, look at Lamborghini, the SUV is over 50% of their sales.  
     

    Sadly at the rate we are going there won’t be many sedans left.

    BAD cars?  Please.  A 1982 Cimarron was actually bad.  A 1998 Catera was mediocre at best.  Today's models are good, but not great.

    If you wish to complain about interiors compared to a Telluride/Palisade, that is fair.  A mid-cycle enhancement will solve that (hopefully very soon).  The XT models and the new Escalade are what Cadillac is right now, from a sales standpoint.

    As for Acura, they have little to worry about. . . . . except for the fact that Hyundai/KIA is bent on total world conquest of all markets worldwide.

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    2 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    A 1982 Cimarron was actually bad.  A 1998 Catera was mediocre at best.

    I have the Car & Driver review of the '82 Cimarron vs. the 3-series and (IIRC) a Volvo, and it was well received, esp vs the craptastic BMW. I know it's not the popular narrative, and we're all about conforming to the popular narrative / meme nowadays, but the ink on that one hasn't fade yet.

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    12 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    I have the Car & Driver review of the '82 Cimarron vs. the 3-series and (IIRC) a Volvo, and it was well received, esp vs the craptastic BMW. I know it's not the popular narrative, and we're all about conforming to the popular narrative / meme nowadays, but the ink on that one hasn't fade yet.

    Let's see it!  Take a picture or use a scanning app...  C&D doesn't seem to look back on it too fondly.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378902/black-sheep-embarrassing-offspring-from-otherwise-upstanding-automotive-families/?slide=12

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    5 hours ago, balthazar said:

    It's too late for ferrari & bentley- they're going to be discontinued because they don't have 5 SUVs. It's impossible for them to survive 1 more day.

    "small volume players that are part of a parent company"
    You mean like Acura???
     

    When the “entry level” Acura is $200,000 then Acura ca be judged like Bentley or Ferrari.

    3 hours ago, riviera74 said:

    BAD cars?  Please.  A 1982 Cimarron was actually bad.  A 1998 Catera was mediocre at best.  Today's models are good, but not great.

    If you wish to complain about interiors compared to a Telluride/Palisade, that is fair.  A mid-cycle enhancement will solve that (hopefully very soon).  The XT models and the new Escalade are what Cadillac is right now, from a sales standpoint.

    As for Acura, they have little to worry about. . . . . except for the fact that Hyundai/KIA is bent on total world conquest of all markets worldwide.

    Bad compared to what is in market today.  CT4 is probably no more competitive today than the Catera was in 1998.  
     

    The XT6 went on sale after the Telluride, that MCE is a long way off.  Aviator was out for a year before XT6.  XT6 is among the newest in segment and is probably worst in segment now, what will it be in 4-5 years?

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    2 hours ago, frogger said:

    Let's see it!  Take a picture or use a scanning app...  C&D doesn't seem to look back on it too fondly.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378902/black-sheep-embarrassing-offspring-from-otherwise-upstanding-automotive-families/?slide=12

    Moral of that story: you do NOT get a second chance to make a first impression.  That is Hyundai/KIA's strength right now: new product that impresses right off the bat.  Cadillac needs to learn this (and continuous improvement) NOW.

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    3 hours ago, frogger said:

    Let's see it!  Take a picture or use a scanning app...  C&D doesn't seem to look back on it too fondly.

    https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g15378902/black-sheep-embarrassing-offspring-from-otherwise-upstanding-automotive-families/?slide=12

    I googled and I found something.

    I didnt read the link myself. But I do know that the link article is includes the original Motor Trend 1992 Cimarron test, the Car and Driver 1982 Cimarron comparison test with the Audi and Bimmer. And I think this is the article that @balthazar  is talking about. 

    And the Road and Track comparison test of the 1982 Cimarron with the Audi and Bimmer.

    https://www.curbsideclassic.com/uncategorized/vintage-reviews-cadillac-cimarron/

    I wont be reading it anytime soon, therefore I wouldnt know anytime soon if the Car and Driver article originally liked the Cimarron.

    But, here it is for you to found out though.

    In my honest opinion of the Cimarron after reading countless articles for and against it. Arguing on car forums, mostly against it, and actually remembering it from back in  the day and comparing it with the countless of Cavaliers Ive driven and was being driven in. That also Includes the J2000/Sunbird and Oldsmobile Firenza.  And yes, all those J cars that I have experience in range from years 1985-1992. From a 2.0 liter Turbo (Sunbird), to 2.8 liter V6s and even a 3.1 literV6. Cant forget the N/A 2.0 4 cylinder. Ive driven that as well.  Oh...I almost forgot. I drove a 2.2 liter Cavalier as well.  

    On the Cimarron and on the J Car in general.

    It wasnt THAT bad of a car.  It was actually an OK car.  In 2.8 or 3.1 V6 guise, it was pretty peppy AND reliable. 

    Problem was with the Cimarron, yuppies did not want ANYTHING with a Cadillac badge on it. Anything American really.  

    As I also had quite the experiences with a BMW 3 Series of that time, other than lightweight RWD handling characteristics of a Bimmer 3 Series,  the Cimarron was actually quite comparable with that ECONOBOX 3 Series.  Interiors of both were quite the same...  

    Which arises another problem for Cadillac. The Cimarron did NOT have Cadillac "Standard of the World" interior.  And THAT its where iot failed. NOT because it was a J car clone, well that too. It was a BADGE ENGINEERED car.  But had it been an exclusive car ONLY to Cadillac with a Cadillac worthy interior, we would be singing a different tune about it today.

    The J cars were not bad cars, truth be told. They were just too many of them. Badge engineering at its worst.

    What gets me with BMW, and it shows in this thread with some, and especially with my dumb ass Greek friends of the day,  the same shyte over and over and over again that drives me mad, its the the blind defending of BMW.  BMW gets a PASS for being shytty.  In reality,   Its a crappy RWD econobox.  

    You know what was reallly a better RWD econobox car during that time?   But NOBODY seems to talk about it. No so called car enthusiast EVER bring is it up. Just the same ole same ole rhetoric.  BMW 3 Serries blah blah blah. Cimarron sucks.  

    I present to you the RWD 1st generation Mazda 626. 

    680 Best Rotary images in 2020 | Mazda, Mazda cars, Japanese cars

     

    And now I just realized why an inline 6 Mazda 6 for 2021 or 2022 makes even more sense...  

    But yeah...Im a Honda fanbois...

     

     

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    I glanced at the link above: that’s the C&D article I have. I skimmed over the MT article, and it largely agrees, reacting favorably. The MAIN issue with the Cimarron was that it was SO different than the traditional Cadillac, not that it was uncompetitive. Which it was according to the press.

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    11 hours ago, balthazar said:

    I glanced at the link above: that’s the C&D article I have. I skimmed over the MT article, and it largely agrees, reacting favorably. The MAIN issue with the Cimarron was that it was SO different than the traditional Cadillac, not that it was uncompetitive. Which it was according to the press.

    Imagine if the original Cimarron had a Seville interior and the 2.8 v6 from day one.  That probably would have solved most of its problems.

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    It did have full leather seating standard the first year, and gained the V6 in year 2.

    Look- I'm not a fan of this car. I think the black/gold trimmed D'Oro package was a nice looking little car, but I'm not a fan of little cars. I still stand with my earlier post that the Cimarron was too far removed from the definition of a Cadillac THEN. I attach no such sentiment toward -say- the ATS when it came out, but that's 30 years later.

    Perhaps if the Cimarron had followed the '85 Downsizing 2.0, but in '82, the Devilles were still REAL full-size BOF cruisers, and the shock was pretty huge.

    There's nothing stylistically 'wrong'  or deficient with this car :

    83 D-Oro.jpg

     

    Here's a article from Automobile, on a then 25-year old Cimarron. If you brush past the lame joke attempts, he doesn't fault the car itself.
    https://www.automobilemag.com/news/1986-cadillac-cimarron-v6/

    Edited by balthazar
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    You are right in that the Cimarron is too far away from what Cadillac was in '82.  In 1989 it probably would have fit in just fine.  The problem was was that Cadillac dealers were worried about potential customers wanting the 3 series and buying them instead of a Seville.  What those dealers did not realize is that those who wanted a BMW then did not want a Cadillac at all and should not have pushed so hard for a BMW fighter so quickly. 

    This video that I found a few days ago spells out what happened to the Cimarron. 

     

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    Funny that the Acura RDX along with the Mazda CX-5 are both on the DO NOT BUY list by JD Powers and Associate 2020 review. :P 

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    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Funny that the Acura RDX along with the Mazda CX-5 are both on the DO NOT BUY list by JD Powers and Associate 2020 review. :P 

    Care to provide link?

    I couldn't find these ratings.

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    33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Seville was an s-class / 7-series competitor, not a lowly 3-series.

    Then explain the Deville and Fleetwood in those days.

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    44 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Seville was an s-class / 7-series competitor, not a lowly 3-series.

    Seville was far from that, in the 70s it was the entry Cadillac, in the early 80s is was like the middle Cadillac, and late 80s it was downsized and still like the middle or maybe sportier Cadillac compared to the bigger cushier Deville.  Nothing they made was an S-class competitor, an S-class was double the money of any Cadillac other than the Allante which was a bit closer price wise.  A 1988 560SEL started at $70k, a Cadillac Seville was like $28k back then.

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    3 hours ago, ykX said:

    Care to provide link?

    I couldn't find these ratings.

    I posted this in the Random forum.

     

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    1 hour ago, riviera74 said:

    Then explain the Deville and Fleetwood in those days.

    Sure; BMW and Mercedes didn't field any competitors to them.

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Seville was far from that, in the 70s it was the entry Cadillac, in the early 80s is was like the middle Cadillac

    Incorrect.

    Other than the Series 75, it was the the highest priced model.
    In the '70s ('75-76) the entry model would've been the Calais.

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    smk4565

    Posted (edited)

    49 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Sure; BMW and Mercedes didn't field any competitors to them.

    Incorrect.

    Other than the Series 75, it was the the highest priced model.
    In the '70s ('75-76) the entry model would've been the Calais.

    OK, so a 1981 Seville was $23,000 and a Mercedes 380SEL was $44,300. 

    1976 Seville was $12,500 and $22,500 for a 450SEL.  

    Never competitors.

    Edited by smk4565

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    39 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Never competitors.

    You are right, for a change.

    Cadillac was ALWAYS a true luxury brand.

    Mercedes sold and still sells to the common man. 

     

    1945 to 1955 Mercedes-Benz 136 and 191 series

    Mercedes-Benz W136 - Wikipedia

    Buy/Drive/Burn: Cheap German Luxury Cars From 2002

    Mercedes A Class 250 4Matic 2019 Price In Greece , Features And ...

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    What self-respecting luxury car refers to itself as most economical fine? 

    Luxury cars are all about SELF-INDULGENT, EXCESSIVE, NARCISSISTICALLY ARROGANT purchases.  

    Contrary to what that advert is trying to convey, aint it?  And THAT is a W123 Mercedes...  A "luxury" car in the USA, but an econobox everywhere else in the world.   Hey...dont hate on me, dude. THAT is a MERCEDES BENZ advert for that car....

     

    mercedes vintage ads - Cerca con Google | Mercedes models, Daimler ...

     

    Ive done this argument  sooooooo many times on car forums (and in real life with my dumb ass Greek friends) that its easy to dig up material like this...     

    Mercedes Benz...is more of a common man's car than it is a pure luxury car. Blame a certain mustachioed short man from the 1930s-1940s for that...    And you could thank good 'ole Yankee and British subsidized money for resurrecting Mercedes from the dead while you are at it... 

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    OK, so a 1981 Seville was $23,000 and a Mercedes 380SEL was $44,300. 

    1976 Seville was $12,500 and $22,500 for a 450SEL.  

    Never competitors.

    Like I said- Seville was the highest priced and never an 'entry' model'.

    S-class & Seville were routinely compared in the press. Despite the MB's higher price, it was a poorer, far less luxurious value. Seville ate into s-class sales in that era, having never competed in that segment; what was then called 'international-sized' sedans.
    Mercedes continued to benchmark Cadillac, coping numerous amenities & features; a lo-ooong road of 'catch-up'. By the '90s, after 30+ years in the market, they finally got it right.

     

    Well.... except for the value portion. It's hard to lose more money on a mainstream brand's model than at mercedes. That, they still ahve to work on, but in order to do so, they'd have to pump the brakes on the production lines (which they'd never, ever do).

    Edited by balthazar
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    33 minutes ago, balthazar said:

    Like I said- Seville was the highest priced and never an 'entry' model'.

    S-class & Seville were routinely compared in the press. Despite the MB's higher price, it was a poorer, far less luxurious value. Seville ate into s-class sales in that era, having never competed in that segment; what was then called 'international-sized' sedans.
    Mercedes continued to benchmark Cadillac, coping numerous amenities & features; a lo-ooong road of 'catch-up'. By the '90s, after 30+ years in the market, they finally got it right.

     

    Well.... except for the value portion. It's hard to lose more money on a mainstream brand's model than at mercedes. That, they still ahve to work on, but in order to do so, they'd have to pump the brakes on the production lines (which they'd never, ever do).

    Cadillac sales peaked in the late 70s and were in steady decline in the 80s and Mercedes and BMW were on the rise.  With the Japanese coming in the 90s the sales drop continued. 

    The 1981 Seville had the 135 hp 4100 V8.  The 380SEL had a 200 hp V8 with a 230 hp V8 in the 500SEL, more powerful than a Corvette of the day.  Mercedes didn't have to benchmark anyone, they had more power, they invented airbags, ABS, crumple zones, stability control, they used real wood trim, while the Americans used fake.  

    The 1954 Mercedes 300SL was the first car with direct fuel injection, and the fastest car in the world when it came out.     Mercedes has the fastest car in the world in 1900-1909 decade as well.  Always been a pioneer in the automotive industry since inventing the freaking car in the first place. 

    • Haha 3

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    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    automotive industry since inventing the freaking car in the first place. 

    wrong

     

    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes has the fastest car in the world in 1900-1909 decade as well.

    wrong

     

    5 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Always been a pioneer in the automotive industry

    true. But so has Ford. Chevrolet. Dodge. Oldsmobile. Alfa Romeo. Buick. Renault. Among others. Oh...I forgot.

    CADILLAC 

    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    Mercedes didn't have to benchmark anyone

    Wrong. They even benchmark Jeep...on many occasions i n the 1970s. Including when they merged with Chrysler...

    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    airbags,

    wrong. So phoquing wrong.  Chrsyler, Ford and GM all experimented with airbags in the 1960s and 1970s and GM was the first domestic manufacturer to offer airbags in their cars in the early 1970s and Volvo actually beating them to the punch...

    9 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    ABS

    wrong (that comes from the aerospace industry, but it aint even M-B that used ABS first on cars either...   Chrysler, Ford, Oldsmobile and Cadillac all had ABS in the early 1970s.  

    21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    crumple zones

    Ill give you that one

     

    22 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    stability control

    wrong.  That would be Toyota...

    23 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    they used real wood trim, while the Americans used fake

    Are you phoquing kidding me?

    Ford had its own phoquing  tree farms for Christ sakes...

    1949 Ford for sale #2350279 - Hemmings Motor News

    26 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    more powerful than a Corvette of the day.

    Early 1950s....sure.

    But by the time 1959 rolled in, that 300SL was on the decline while the Corvette took flight.  It took 40 years for Mercedes to outdo a Corvette.  In 1989...this was M-B's pride and joy that stemmed from the original Gullwing.  A gold diggin' trophy wife car.  In 1990, the new SL came out and THAT is when Mercedes started to be on a roll in the US....  NOT before...  

    Time capsule 1989 Mercedes 500SL with 965 miles is for sale

    In 1989...A Vette was King of the Hill.   Mercedes wasnt talked about in 1989...

    1989 C4 Chevrolet Corvette: Specifications, VIN, & Options

     

    34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    1954 Mercedes 300SL was the first car with direct fuel injection,

     The Vette got that in 1955.  The following year.  But in 1957,  the Bel Air had it too...   So did Chrysler.  I think in 1955 also.

    Fuel injection was a German invention, sure. But fo aircraft engines in the 1920s and diesel engines.    Not a Mercedes Benz invention...  

     

    Its amazing...of all of that .only ONE thing was correct.

    Now...do you care to see what General Motor's contributions to the automotive world are?

    Electric starter

    AIRBAGS.  Yes..its a GM invention...

    automatic transmission 

    parts interchangeability

    the standard of how we drive the damn car today and for the last 100 years.  ie. Brake pedal on the left. Accelerator pedal on the right, etc.

    Catalytic converter

    highway speed and safety barriers

    Crash Test dummies

    ON STAR  (for in-car communication and collection of data and  satellite connectivity in a car, etc)

    First car radio

    synchromesh manual transmission

    power adjustable seats

    rear window defroster

    heated seats

    first turbo in a car.  Although that too is an aerospace technology.

    traction control.  (different form stability control)

    Touchscreens 

    first to offer Head up displays  (although that too, is an aerospace thing)

    first to offer Night vision  (military tech)

    Magnetic shocks

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    balthazar

    Posted (edited)

    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    But by the time 1959 rolled in, that 300SL was on the decline ...

    The fuel injection was problematic, requiring dedicated mechanics to keep it operational.
    But Daimler -as usual- wanted sales volume first & foremost, and they quickly sullied the SL nameplate with the 89-HP 4-cylinder 190SL, killing off the 300 coupe early in the '57 MY, then killing off the cheaper-to-build convertible after '62. For a 4-banger with 89 HP. That's closer to HALF the horsepower the Corvette had 10 years earlier!

    Daimler basically did the opposite trajectory that the Corvette did. With the tri-carb inline 6, the Corvette in '54 alone outsold the entire run of daimler 300s, coupe & convertible combined,  from '54-63. The early SLs sold terribly; most years were around 200 units.

    Edited by balthazar
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    11 hours ago, dfelt said:

    I posted this in the Random forum.

     

    And some one pointed back than also - there is NOWHERE where it says that CX-5 is rated at the bottom while saying that Mazda is rated well above average.

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    Late 80s Mercedes SL prices are rapidly on the rise, not uncommon for those to sell over $30k and that car had 240 hp which was good for the 80s, a 4.9 V8 Cadillac had 200.  
     

    Corvette wasn’t king on 1989, the Ferrari F40 was.  
     

    But GM build quality is what did Cadillac in.   Now in 2020 everyone has pretty good build quality, even the worst car of today has more quality and safety than the best car 20 years ago.  
     

    So for a Cadillac or Acura you have to have product performance and marketing to grow sales, no one is really just bleeding sales due to building terrible cars so that others can pick up sales by default.

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    3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Corvette wasn’t king on 1989, the Ferrari F40 was.  

    The F40 was also very very cheap on the inside.

    Besides...different car.

    Besides...Vettes also, albeit Callaway and Lingenfelter Vettes did over 200MPH, much like the F40...and those Vettes retained Corvette motors...

    Besides, the 1989 Vette ZR1 was more in line with Ferrari 328s , much like how the Vette today is in line with a F8 Tributo...

    I cant find the Motor Trend cover with big bold lettters...but here is a R&D mag link from 2014...

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a5975/1990-chevrolet-corvette-zr-1-drive-flashback/

    Quote

     

    Drive Flashback: 1990 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1

    World-class performance to counter the Countach and tackle the Testarossa.

    They get no respect, those American-made sports cars. Especially in Europe, where performance, handling, and exclusivity—not catchy ad slogans—determine the true meaning of a car's worth. Sure, the Swiss buy Detroit-built sedans and wagons, but one suspects it's an affectation—like wearing denims with your Giorgio Armani jacket. Truth is, most European automotive enthusiasts have little regard for almost any automobile America has produced in recent memory.

    But with the introduction of the Corvette ZR-1—at the 1989 Geneva Auto Show, of all places—that attitude is about to change.

    You may know the ZR-1 as the King of the Hill, which is what this Super Vette was com­monly called when the program was barely more than a rumor. For
    reasons known only to GM brass, that name is now taboo. Our guess is that Chevy, who's seeking international recog­nition, found the name too domestic, not
    to mention too long, for a car badge—and untranslatable (Le mi de la monlagne? Non. Der Konig am Hiigel? Nein ). Better to keep it simple, short, and
    sweet. And alphanumeric so as to capital­ize on its similarity to other European exotics such as the BMW M1 and Ferrari F40.

     

    "Truth is, most European automotive enthusiasts have little regard for almost any automobile America has produced in recent memory."

    sounds like you...

    Quote

     

    But GM build quality is what did Cadillac in.   Now in 2020 everyone has pretty good build quality, even the worst car of today has more quality and safety than the best car 20 years ago.  
     

    So for a Cadillac or Acura you have to have product performance and marketing to grow sales, no one is really just bleeding sales due to building terrible cars so that others can pick up sales by default.

     

    Get a new angle going...its 2020.  Move on from it or just stop posting this shyte. 

    Hey...continue believing in it if you want to...I just dont feel like listening to this shytty rhetoric any more...Its getting tiresome... 

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
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    3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Corvette wasn’t king on 1989, the Ferrari F40 was.  

    The F40 was also very very cheap on the inside.

    Same link

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a5975/1990-chevrolet-corvette-zr-1-drive-flashback/

    But is it, as Chevy hopes, a world-class car? (The envelope, please!)

    Yes. The Corvette ZR-1 acquits itself well amidst some very fast company. Yet it does so with a level of sophistication and comfort be­yond what most
    exotics
    (but not specialty cars such as the Porsche 959) currently deliver. Throw in availability and serviceability (the GM-CAMS computer diagnostic
    system, man­datory service equipment for all ZR-1 dealers), and you have a car that offers the best of the old and the new world.

     

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15114543/1989-chevrolet-corvette-z51-vs-porsche-911-archived-comparison-test/

     

    Quote

     

    The Checkered Flag

    We have arrived at the moment of truth, and truth does not favor the 911 Club Sport. Don't misunderstand: this Porsche is a delightful automobile, the nicest 911 we've ever driven. It has a sweet, mechanical disposition and a rev-me-forever engine. Its exhaust note is an exotic cross between the world's largest Hoover and a Group C race car. But when you reach for the air conditioner, it's not there. When you want some music, it's not there. When you want to pop open the sunroof, it's not there. The Club Sport is an interesting experiment, but it pales under the harsh light of common sense. Its performance advantage over a standard 911 Carrera is anything but clear, so what's the point? Only an inside-out Porsche nutball would pony up the price of a Carrera for a 911 lacking major comfort items. That may explain why Porsche Cars North America has imported only twenty 911 Club Sports for sale.

    We are left with the winner: the car that turned in the big numbers and handled the high pressure with maximum class. We hereby proclaim the Chevrolet Corvette Z51 the Ace of Clubs.

     

     

    Let me remind you , Road and Track, Car and Driver, and sometimes Motor Trend...were NEVER that friendly towards American cars in the 1980s and 1990s.  And here you got, R&D and C&D...with VERY FAVOURABLE reviews for the ZR1 and Z51 of 1989 and 1988(9) respectively from articles of the day...

    I said this before, NEVER BAD MOUTH THE VETTE.  

    Ill say THIS again.  REFRAIN to bad mouth Cadillac. Im getting sick of it.  Believe it all you want. Stop printing it on here...I dont wanna read it anymore. I dont want to become bulimic...

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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

     

    The F40 was also very very cheap on the inside.

    Same link

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a5975/1990-chevrolet-corvette-zr-1-drive-flashback/

    But is it, as Chevy hopes, a world-class car? (The envelope, please!)

    Yes. The Corvette ZR-1 acquits itself well amidst some very fast company. Yet it does so with a level of sophistication and comfort be­yond what most
    exotics
    (but not specialty cars such as the Porsche 959) currently deliver. Throw in availability and serviceability (the GM-CAMS computer diagnostic
    system, man­datory service equipment for all ZR-1 dealers), and you have a car that offers the best of the old and the new world.

     

    https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15114543/1989-chevrolet-corvette-z51-vs-porsche-911-archived-comparison-test/

     

     

    Let me remind you , Road and Track, Car and Driver, and sometimes Motor Trend...were NEVER that friendly towards American cars in the 1980s and 1990s.  And here you got, R&D and C&D...with VERY FAVOURABLE reviews for the ZR1 and Z51 of 1989 and 1988(9) respectively from articles of the day...

    I said this before, NEVER BAD MOUTH THE VETTE.  

    Ill say THIS again.  REFRAIN to bad mouth Cadillac. Im getting sick of it.  Believe it all you want. Stop printing it on here...I dont wanna read it anymore. I dont want to become bulimic...

    30 years later the Corvette is still good performance per dollar, still a very good car for the money.  But it is what it is, it kind of splits the middle of Porsche 718/Cayman and 911.  In now way is it one of the top sports cars out there, nor should it be with it's price, brand and mission.

    All the top sports car come form Europe:

    Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, McLaren, and whatever top AMG car they put out.  Porsche Carerra GT and 918, etc.  Sure, every 10 years or so you get a limited run of a Ford GT or Acura NSX, Lexus  LFA, etc but look how few top sports cars come out of Asia and America.  

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    6 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Late 80s Mercedes SL prices are rapidly on the rise...

    I question that : the build quality & engineering is awful. VERY cheaply built.

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    1 minute ago, balthazar said:

    I question that : the build quality & engineering is awful. VERY cheaply built.

    And yet there are so many left on the road after 35 years.

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    48 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And yet there are so many left on the road after 35 years.

    There is virtually NO SL Mercedes cars on the road from 35 years ago.  The few there are left, are garage queens.  The ones that are not...were scrapped a loooong time ago.

    Corvettes are the ones to be still on the road.  In any condition, you will find them.  Why? Because they run.  They run forever. Cut that shyte out!  Mercedes cars are NOT built to last.  The W123 was. The E Class replacements were.  Because TAXI service.  But the others are junk!   I really dont get this idea where you think Mercedes cars are built to last?    I dont even think the G-wagon is built to last...

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, Koenigsegg, Aston Martin, McLaren, and whatever top AMG

     

    Ford GT or Acura NSX, Lexus  LFA, etc but look how few top sports cars come out of Asia and America.  

    All BOUTIQUE marques.

    Lamborghini, Ferrari, Bugatti, McLaren, Porsche...  THAT IS ALL THEY DO, Is SPORTS CARS.    Are you really serious when you are talking to me. Or are you trolling me?    Seriously...  

    Ford, Honda (because anywere else in the world other than the US and possibly the Emirates now,  Acuras are just Hondas...) Toyota/Lexus are FULL LINE regular folk marques... 

    But...

    A Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 at that time, and its still a top Nurburgring  lap champ, was faster than Porsche GT2 RS.  A  very dedicated track car on its home turf, and the Camaro ZL1 1LE kicked its ass...

     

    Yeah...I know...Porsche brought out better track cars.

    OF COURSE THEY DID!

    THEY GOT EMBARRASSED THAT A LOWLY CHEVY KICKED ITS ASS ON ITS HOME TURF...

    A MAKER OF PIG SUVS AND MUSCLE CARS THAT CANT TURN KICKED PORSCHE"S ASS ON ITS HOME TURF TRACK. THE VAUNTED 'RING!!!  NOT EVEN THE CORVETTE>  THE CAMARO OF ALL THINGS!!!  A PORKY MUSCLE CAR CAMARO KICKED PORSCHE 911GT2 RS TRACK ORIENTED SUPERCAR'S ASS ON THE RING...

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a10206481/the-chevrolet-camaro-zl1-1le-blitzed-the-nurburgring-in-71604/

     

    Quote

     

    Oh, and while the ZL1 can be had with a 10-speed automatic, the 1LE package only offers one transmission: A six-speed manual. For reference, the "regular" ZL1 lap time, the one the 1LE trounced by more than 13 seconds, was set with an automatic.

    In addition to beating the normal ZL1's time, the 1LE managed to get around the 'Ring faster than performance cars like the Nissan GT-R, Ferrari 488 GTB, and previous-generation 911 GT2 RS. This thing is wildly quick.

    According to Chevrolet, the lap was done on production-spec Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar 3R tires, and driven by Camaro ride and handling engineer Bill Wise.

    Don't forget, the ZL1 1LE starts at just $69,995, meaning the value for performance is off the charts.

    Watch the full lap right here.

     

     

     

    Remember...THAT is ALL Porsche does...  Is do track cars, especially track cars focused to track on the 'Ring...

    Its a BOUTIQUE manufacturer that ONLY makes sports cars... Well...now they have become SUV makers. But that discussion is for another day...

    http://www.autoextremist.com/current/?currentPage=2

    Quote

     

    Why should this Porsche be any more significant than previous Porsche special editions? After all, it is no secret that Porsche has the most usurious pricing strategy/option list in the business, and it never hesitates to exploit its fan base to extract every last dollar possible. The operatives at Porsche are the preeminent greed merchants in this industry, and that's saying something when there's an industry full of 'em. Limited to 992 models worldwide, the 2021 Porsche 911 Targa 4S Heritage Design Edition is supposed to evoke memories of Porsche models from the 50s. This is what Oliver Blume, Chairman of the Executive Board of Porsche AG had to say about it: “We are evoking memories of the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s and 1980s in customers and fans with the Heritage Design models. No brand can translate these elements into the modern day as well as Porsche, and, along the way, we’re fulfilling the wishes of our customers. With the exclusive special editions, we are also establishing a new product line which represents the ‘lifestyle’ dimension in our product strategy.

     

    Really? Let's stop right there, because when Porsche starts talking about "lifestyle dimensions" the brand is in serious trouble. I am not going to bother to regurgitate all of the "exclusive" details, because they're too tedious and contrived to mention, but suffice to say, this brand direction is a new low for Porsche. How much? The 2021 911 Targa 4S Heritage Design Edition has an MSRP of $180,600, not including a $1,350 delivery, processing and handling fee. It is expected to reach U.S. dealers in late 2020. Along with the introduction of the special edition, certain interior elements will be available as part of the Heritage Design package for all current 911 models. But wait, if you really want to be The Biggest Tool in the Shed, Porsche Design has created a high-quality chronograph, also a limited edition, which will be offered for sale exclusively to customers purchasing the special model. The 911 Targa 4S Heritage Design edition chronograph will set you back another $14,000, and it can be purchased at authorized Porsche dealers exclusively by owners (aka The Biggest Tools) of the 911 Targa 4S Heritage Design Edition. 

    It's no secret that when auto manufacturers start playing out the string with a brand, they start coming up with special editions to extract every last dollar out of their brand faithful. Porsche is no different in that regard. What’s different here is the at the same time Porsche is walking away from its “lifeblood” – which is competing at the top level of international GT racing – it is openly talking about the new “lifestyle dimension” of its product strategy. It’s an ominous move in the wrong direction. Nicely done Porsche, you unmitigated hacks.

    As I said earlier, nothing is guaranteed in this business and indeed, nothing lasts forever. But when you’re a top brand and you lose focus, it’s damn-near unforgivable in my book. And a giant bowl of Not Good.

    And that’s the High-Octane Truth for this week.

     

     

     

     

    I wouldnt want Chevy to ONLY concentrate on sport cars if I were you. Chevy would make you cry... 

     

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

     In now way is it one of the top sports cars out there, nor should it be with it's price, brand and mission.

    All the top sports car come form Europe:

     

     

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    3 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    There is virtually NO SL Mercedes cars on the road from 35 years ago. The few there are left, are garage queens.  The ones that are not...were scrapped a loooong time ago.

    I am soooo wrong.  The few that are left, all have been LS swapped...

    https://www.streetmusclemag.com/features/car-features/sophistication-meet-power-the-ls1-swapped-benz-vette/

    https://engineswapdepot.com/?p=2146

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15342583/pagoda-style-meets-corvette-power-in-mysterious-1965-mercedes-benz-230sl/

    https://bringatrailer.com/2015/08/20/ls-swapped-euro-1984-mercedes-benz-280sl/

    This one has been 2JayZe-ed   LOL

    http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/12/500sl-like-youve-never-seen-heard/

    This link here...is VERY VERY telling. It has MULTIPLE stories of M-B SL swaps...

    https://engineswapdepot.com/?cat=527

    Quote

    Cam Clerx enjoys driving his 1980 Mercedes 450SL but grew tired of the factory V8 leaving him stranded. So he sent the convertible to Robert Rubio and his team at Sideways Performance for a powertrain upgrade. There they replaced the Mercedes engine and transmission with a turbocharged 2.5 L 1JZ-GTE VVTi inline-six and Toyota automatic … Read more

     

    The next one is an LS 6.0 liter swap from a Chevy 2500HD Pick-up...

    FROM A CHEVY PICK-UP TRUCK...

     

     

    Quote

     

    1974 Mercedes 450SL with a 6.0 L LSx V8 – Part 2

    April 4, 2019 by swaptastic Leave a Comment
    1974 Mercedes 450SL with a 6.0 L LSx V8

    Metalman 329 returns with an update on his 1974 Mercedes 450SL (R107) build series. The project’s goal is to install a 6.0 L LSx V8 (Vortec 6000) from a Chevy 2500HD truck. One change to original plan since the previous video is going with a Mercedes transmission instead of using a GM 4L60E or 4L80E … Read more

    Posted in: 450SL, R107

     

     
    This one has a phoquing NISSAN 3.1 liter 6...  How phoquing pathetic is THAT for Mercedes' pride and joy to have a phoquing Nissan 3.1 liter 6 swap?   
    Dumb And Dumber Laughing GIF - Find & Share on GIPHY

     

    Quote

     

    1982 Mercedes with a Nissan L28

    November 8, 2016 by swaptastic 4 Comments
     
    This 1982 Mercedes 500 SL convertible might have left the factory with a 5.0 L V8 but it now has a inline-six. The current motor is a Nissan L28 inline-six that has been increased to 3.1 L. The engine now runs a MoTeC fuel injection system and ECU. I wasn’t able to determine if the five-speed manual transmission was Mercedes or Nissan but since the rear end is a R200 LSD it probably safe to assume it’s a Nissan unit.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442
    • Haha 1

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    The Camaro ZL1 has a 7:16 Nürburgring ring time while the 911 GT2 did it in 6:47.  Pretty big gap there.

     

    As far as LS swapping goes, it is a cheap motor and easy to swap in cars, good packaging and easy to work on.  And LS engines are good, reliable engines.

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    Yeah...now the GT2 does that. The ZL1 1LE embarassed Porsche so Porsche engineered another to beat the Camaro. In any case,  Chevrolet has no business (according to you) to produce highly specialized and fast track cars...   especially being faster than German and European sports cars.  And yet,  Chevrolet and America did just that.   

    12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And LS engines are good, reliable engines.

    Yup...

    I wonder why literally nobody swaps German V8s into their dream cars...especially AMG V8s into Mercedes products?

    ceb37dab2a0ee9b5918d0b58d80fd80a1f0e055b_hq.gif

     

    Quote

    Cam Clerx enjoys driving his 1980 Mercedes 450SL but grew tired of the factory V8 leaving him stranded. So he sent the convertible to Robert Rubio and his team at Sideways Performance for a powertrain upgrade. There they replaced the Mercedes engine and transmission with a turbocharged 2.5 L 1JZ-GTE VVTi inline-six and Toyota automatic...

    and...

    W210 LS1 swap (With images) | Mercedes, Engine swap, Ls swap

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Yeah...now the GT2 does that. The ZL1 1LE embarassed Porsche so Porsche engineered another to beat the Camaro. In any case,  Chevrolet has no business (according to you) to produce highly specialized and fast track cars...   especially being faster than German and European sports cars.  And yet,  Chevrolet and America did just that.   

    Yup...

    I wonder why literally nobody swaps German V8s into their dream cars...especially AMG V8s into Mercedes products?

    ceb37dab2a0ee9b5918d0b58d80fd80a1f0e055b_hq.gif

     

    and...

    W210 LS1 swap (With images) | Mercedes, Engine swap, Ls swap

     

    Aston Martin uses AMG V8s.  No one swaps an AMG V8 into an old car because of cost.  Also I am not sure if they even sell a crate motor version.  
     

    Also I never said Chevy has no business building a sports car or that they didn’t have some fast cars.  I am saying America should build something faster or more than just Corvette, because Camaro/Mustang are not super cars.  But American car companies only see profits in pickups and crossovers.

     

    And the 911 ran the Nurburgring in 6:47 in 2017, a year before the Camaro did it in 7:16.  
     

    The Lamborghinis are both low 6:40’s, that is the benchmark we are looking for to be elite.  And even if AMG One is under 6 minutes, under 7 minutes would still be in the elite club.

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    31 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    No one swaps an AMG V8 into an old car because of cost.

    Like mercedes vehicles in general, there are many many better choices for more power, greater reliability and less inflated cost. AMG motors are money pits.

    • Upvote 2

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    12 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     I am saying America should build something faster or more than just Corvette

    Corvettes ARE just about the fastest things around...

    When a new Vette comes out, it sets the bar and the others meat and and beat it.

    The Stingray C8 does that. The Stingray is fastest in its SEGMENT. Not the 911 Turbo, but the base 911.

    Base for base.

    The Z06 and Grand Sport targets the 911 Turbo.  You have a habit of comparing BASE Corvettes with mind numbing performing, top of the line versions of the Vette's competitors.

    And when others show you what top of the line Corvettes do...you dismiss and say stuff like

    20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    something faster or more than just Corvette,

    How much faster do you want?   

    The BASE C8 does 0-60 in 2.8-2.9 seconds...

    1/4 mile in 11.2 seconds @ 122MPH  

    A TICK shy of 200MPH.  (195)  That is on a BASE Corvette

    A 911 Turbo S 2019 because 2020 911 Turbo S aint out yet just as the Z06 aint out yet...

    GRAND SPORT, ZR1 and ZORA to come...

    0-60   2.6 seconds

    1/4 mile in 10.5 seconds 

    and a tick north of 200MPH  (205)

     

    You want a hypercar from General Motors?

    OK...fair enough. The ZORA

    And the ZORA will be sell in low low numbers.   NOT  MUCH DIFFERENT THAN HYPERCARS FROM FERRARI, LAMBORGHINI, AMG-ONE...  (275 units for a one-time shot...)  You act like hypercars from other makers are a dime a dozen and being re-made into new generations every year...

    The 918 from Porsche was a 2year run.  NO REPLACEMENT

    The LaFerrari was a 3 year run.  The FXX-K is RELATED to the LaFERRARI. Only 40 built and that only latest 2 years.Now, there is a NEW one, well, new name...the FXX-K EVO since 2017.  In total,  8 years on the SAME platform,  just improved DIFFERENT names...

    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

    But American car companies only see profits in pickups and crossovers.

    Yeah...kinda like Porsche.  But hey!  THAT is a smart move for Porsche, a BOUTIQUE SPORTS CAR MAKER but a negative move for Chevrolet.  A FULL LINE automobile and TRUCK maker for OVER 100 years...

     

    PS: You DO you know that CHEVROLET backs and engineers, licenses, ENCOURAGES that HOT RODDING and AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCES of THEIR SPORTS CARS, right?

    IN ESSENCE, MAKING ALL THOSE HOMEMADE FAST CORVETTES and CAMAROS AND BEL AIRS/IMPALAS and CHEVELLES on the track, dragstrip, car shows,   GM AND CHEVROLET HYPERCARS!!!

     

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    1 hour ago, smk4565 said:

     Also I am not sure if they even sell a crate motor version.  

    Dont know. Dont really car either.

    Chevrolet, not only offers a WIDE variety of crate motors, 20-25 different versions of their V8 that one could buy JUST by visiting a Chevrolet dealership, or even better, order online but Chevrolet ALLOWS tuners like Lingenfelter and Callaway and engine builders like Edelbrock to further enhance their V8 and allows them to sell it. Chevrolet FULLY licenses and backs this up IMMENSELY.

    Chevrolet allows suspension modders and computer chip modders to do their thing on their V8s and  licenses others to produce classic body shells of their classic cars and Chevrolet licenses these cars to be modernized.  

    All those restomodded 1970 Chevelles and 1969 Camaros  and C2/C3 and C5/C6/C7  Corvettes with crate motor LS engines tuned by Lingenfelter ot re-built by Edelbrock with modern suspension set-ups that outperform Ferraris on the dragstrip and track and the like are IN ESSENCE...ALL CHEVROLET SUPERCARS AND HYPERCARS...

    Chevrolet beats up on the competition STRAIGHT from the factory or GRASS ROOTS...and it dont matter to Chevy or Chevy owners how the Corvette beats up on the competition...

    But you just dont get it...and never will Im afraid.

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Corvettes ARE just about the fastest things around...

    When a new Vette comes out, it sets the bar and the others meat and and beat it.

    The Stingray C8 does that. The Stingray is fastest in its SEGMENT. Not the 911 Turbo, but the base 911.

    Base for base.

    You want a hypercar from General Motors?

    OK...fair enough. The ZORA

    2020 Corvette Z51 is 7:30 on the Nurburgring 

    2020 Porsche 911 Carrera S is 7:25 on the Nurburgring.  

    There is an even trim level comparison.

    And my hope with Zora is that it is an all-in effort and not designed to a price.  Like a Ford GT is $500k, I like they engineered the car first and priced it 2nd.  GM tends to price first and engineer 2nd which means budget cuts, see CT6 as an example.

    But still we have Camaro, Corvette, Mustang from America, NSX from Japan (although I think it is made in USA), a super aging GT-R from Japan and a Supra made by Germans.  How do 2 continents produce 5 sports cars?  Ferrari alone probably has 5 cars.  

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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Dont know. Dont really car either.

    Chevrolet, not only offers a WIDE variety of crate motors, 20-25 different versions of their V8 that one could buy JUST by visiting a Chevrolet dealership, or even better, order online but Chevrolet ALLOWS tuners like Lingenfelter and Callaway and engine builders like Edelbrock to further enhance their V8 and allows them to sell it. Chevrolet FULLY licenses and backs this up IMMENSELY.

    Chevrolet allows suspension modders and computer chip modders to do their thing on their V8s and  licenses others to produce classic body shells of their classic cars and Chevrolet licenses these cars to be modernized.  

    All those restomodded 1970 Chevelles and 1969 Camaros  and C2/C3 and C5/C6/C7  Corvettes with crate motor LS engines tuned by Lingenfelter ot re-built by Edelbrock with modern suspension set-ups that outperform Ferraris on the dragstrip and track and the like are IN ESSENCE...ALL CHEVROLET SUPERCARS AND HYPERCARS...

    Chevrolet beats up on the competition STRAIGHT from the factory or GRASS ROOTS...and it dont matter to Chevy or Chevy owners how the Corvette beats up on the competition...

    But you just dont get it...and never will Im afraid.

    All Chevy and GM do for the tuner market is great and probably profitable for them too.  But that is a separate issue than lack of sports cars or super cars built buy American car companies or lack of performance SUVs coming from America or Japan.

    This Acura has 272 hp, there are at least a dozen European SUVs with over 500 hp.  There is Road & Track article about how there was going to be an Omega SUV with a Blackwing V8, but the GM top brass killed it and we got cheap to produce Cadillac Acadia instead.  That’s my issue with American and Japanese luxury cars, underneath most those “luxury/performance” cars is a Camry, Pilot or Acadia chassis.

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    1 minute ago, smk4565 said:

    2020 Corvette Z51 is 7:30 on the Nurburgring 

    2020 Porsche 911 Carrera S is 7:25 on the Nurburgring.  

    And?

    Corvette's dont live and die on the Nurburgring. Porsche's do...  

    The Z51 is NOT a track focused sportscar.  Its actually a GT car.   

    Corvettes are not exactly targeted, marketed and engineered to compete DIRECTLY with Porsche 911s model for model  and Porsche 911s are NOT exactly targeted, marketed and engineered to compete DIRECTLY with Corvettes model for model...

    Each car has a target market in their HOME market and sell to THAT criteria. 

    The C4 Corvette had 1 trim. Then in 1989 gained another. Then in the mid 1990s had 3.  Base, (Z51 option) Grand Sport and ZR1 and then the ZR1 was ended leaving the C4 with 2 models.   The C5 only had 2. The BASE (Z51 option)and the Z06.  The C6 had 4. The C7 had 4 and the C8 will have 4.  The Porsche 911 since the 1990s has had COUNTLESS of models doing countless of jobs.

    In the 1980s, it had 3 or 4. 

    Problem with YOUR thinking is that Porsche is a BOUTIQUE SPORTS CAR maker.

    Chevrolet is a FULL LINE automobile and truck maker.  

    11 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    And my hope with Zora is that it is an all-in effort and not designed to a price.

    It will be an all-in effort.  With ALL the big bang, wizz wang tech of the day.  BUT...it WILL have compromises.  Yes to a price. 

    An AMG-ONE costs 2 point something million to buy.  A Vette is NOT an AMG-One or Ford GT.  A Vette is a...Vette.  You want a multi-million dollar Vette?  Customize it,  hot rod it, tune it...ON YOUR OWN!!!

    But it wont be anything related to speed, performance and technology.  Dont expect it to have exotic leathers in it. Or extra special paint jobs... Maybe on the Zora, it might have personalized touches built to a personalized specific  car. 

     

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    7 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    All Chevy and GM do for the tuner market is great and probably profitable for them too.  But that is a separate issue than lack of sports cars or super cars built buy American car companies or lack of performance SUVs coming from America or Japan.

    Nope. 

    Chevy sponsors its racing program. Corvette engineers work closely with the Racing Team  that builds and races the Corvette Racer and the Corvette Racing program DIRECTLY influences the factory Corvette which in turn DIRECTLY influences what Chevrolet and the tuner/hot rod market offers in the aftermarket...

    20 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     Ferrari alone probably has 5 cars.  

    Boutique sports car maker for close to 100 years.

    21 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    But still we have Camaro, Corvette, Mustang from America, NSX from Japan (although I think it is made in USA), a super aging GT-R from Japan and a Supra made by Germans

    Chevrolet.  Full line vehicles.

    Honda.  Is probably the MOST diverse. Motorcycles. Automobiles. Lawnmowers. Generators. Robotics. Jets. Marine engines. 

    Ferrari is a one trick pony.  Not a bad thing. Its just what they do. Sports cars.

    Chevy, Ford, Honda. Are diverse. Not a bad thing. Its just what they do.  

    Ford Raptor.  You know...NOTHING that Ferrari, Porsche or Lamborghini do, can do what a Ford Raptor does.  There is NOTHING in their arsenal that competes with a Ford Raptor...  

    Can a Porsche 911 AWD straight from the factory crawl rocks or super speed through rough terrain? 

    NOPE!

     

     

     

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    34 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     There is Road & Track article about how there was going to be an Omega SUV with a Blackwing V8, but the GM top brass killed it and we got cheap to produce Cadillac Acadia instead

    You read that wrong...or being very disingenuous on why the Black-Wing V8 program was cut. 

    Slow sales of sedans due to market shift to CUVs.   

    Program would have lost tons of money because the Omega NEEDS BOTH SEDANS AND CUVs to be BUILT to be PROFITABLE.

    GM is in the business to MAKE money.

    Money cant be bleeding because OTHER programs like the C8 Corvette and the BOF trucks and SUVs needed to be advanced. (The bankruptcy DID have an effect of those programs and the lack of R&D funds BECAUSE of the bankruptcy tends to AFFECT some other iffy money making projects...such as the Omega.)

    The Escalade makes TONS of cash for Cadillac. Cadillac NEEDS the Escalade to fund the iffy Omega project. The iffy Omega project CAN make money if ALL the stars are aligned properly.   A shift in the market meant that the Omega sedans wouldnt be selling enough units to equally balance the CUV engineering of Omega to push forward iffy Black-wing V8 offerings. 

    THAT and EVs were ALWAYS on the table for Cadillac EVEN WHEN Johan was there.

    So...it was either making the Escalade the BEST it could be, or cheapening IT out to subsidize an even more cheapening of Omega models and risk flubbing EVs in the process...and...goiing back to square one and ALWAYS doing things shytty JUST to  pursue sales or...

    Scuttling Omega, scuttling the Blackwing V8 and cutting/limiting your losses and doing a PROPER Escalade with PROPER R&D money for the EVs...

    The article stated that the CT4 and CT5 had Johan's fingerprints all over them. And it shows.  Where the CT6 was debuted with a not so standard of the world interior, the CT4 and CT5 are EXACTLY on par with Audi in  that the interiors of the CT4 and CT5 are now WORTHY of the moniker "standard of the world".

    The Escalade WILL BE Cadillac worthy...

    AND THAT IS WHAT YOU SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN BY THAT ARTICLE...

    Besides,iIsnt that what you constantly bitch about Cadillac? That its interiors are sub-par.  Here, you have a correction made by Cadillac management to do the right thing and you STILL bitch about it..

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    57 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    This Acura has 272 hp, there are at least a dozen European SUVs with over 500 hp

    THAT is NOT what the NSX is all about.

    Its about TECHNOLOGY.

    Its about fun to drive.

    It aint about high horsepower.  

    The NSX is a MARVEL to throw around curves and just drive fast or to cruise around in.  Not meant to be a barn burner. The original NSX wasnt a barn burner either.    The NSX's mission (original and now) was to showcase technology and to focus on driving characteristics rather than brute force.  (With reliability at the forefront).  The NSX of today succeeds in that regard.   People just dont remember the past too good.   People, much like yourself, just have one specific idea stuck in their minds and cant understand the whole story.  Or choose not too.   And perhaps is the reason why the new NSX is failing in the marketplace. 

    Maybe it was a mistake for Honda to go that route rather than a Hellcat kinda way...I dunno know

    Alls I know, is I dont fault the NSX for what it is.  I like it.  If Id want brute force, the Hellcat is always there for me...

     

     

     

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    You read that wrong...or being very disingenuous on why the Black-Wing V8 program was cut. 

    Slow sales of sedans due to market shift to CUVs.   

    Program would have lost tons of money because the Omega NEEDS BOTH SEDANS AND CUVs to be BUILT to be PROFITABLE.

    GM is in the business to MAKE money.

    They could have made Omega platform SUVs with a Blackwing V8 that cost more than the Escalade and had potentially an even bigger profit margin.   Although they would have needed an Omega SUV priced below Escalade also to get volume and enough scale on the platform.  Lots of ways to make money, but obviously the platform is dead so it doesn't matter much now.

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    THAT is NOT what the NSX is all about.

    Its about TECHNOLOGY.

    Its about fun to drive.

    It aint about high horsepower.  

    The NSX is a MARVEL to throw around curves and just drive fast or to cruise around in.  Not meant to be a barn burner. The original NSX wasnt a barn burner either.    The NSX's mission (original and now) was to showcase technology and to focus on driving characteristics rather than brute force.  (With reliability at the forefront).  The NSX of today succeeds in that regard.   People just dont remember the past too good.   People, much like yourself, just have one specific idea stuck in their minds and cant understand the whole story.  Or choose not too.   And perhaps is the reason why the new NSX is failing in the marketplace. 

    Maybe it was a mistake for Honda to go that route rather than a Hellcat kinda way...I dunno know

    Alls I know, is I dont fault the NSX for what it is.  I like it.  If Id want brute force, the Hellcat is always there for me...

     

     

     

     

    NSX is fine as is.  Of course products such as the RDX and the MDX will have to provide the necessary cash to maintain and fund the NSX.

    • Upvote 1

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    2 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    They could have made Omega platform SUVs with a Blackwing V8 that cost more than the Escalade and had potentially an even bigger profit margin.   Although they would have needed an Omega SUV priced below Escalade also to get volume and enough scale on the platform.  Lots of ways to make money, but obviously the platform is dead so it doesn't matter much now.

    Maybe you should apply for a CEO job at Cadillac?

     

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    1 hour ago, oldshurst442 said:

    THAT is NOT what the NSX is all about.

    Its about TECHNOLOGY.

    Its about fun to drive.

    It aint about high horsepower.  

    The NSX is a MARVEL to throw around curves and just drive fast or to cruise around in.  Not meant to be a barn burner. The original NSX wasnt a barn burner either.    The NSX's mission (original and now) was to showcase technology and to focus on driving characteristics rather than brute force.  (With reliability at the forefront).  The NSX of today succeeds in that regard.   People just dont remember the past too good.   People, much like yourself, just have one specific idea stuck in their minds and cant understand the whole story.  Or choose not too.   And perhaps is the reason why the new NSX is failing in the marketplace. 

    Maybe it was a mistake for Honda to go that route rather than a Hellcat kinda way...I dunno know

    Alls I know, is I dont fault the NSX for what it is.  I like it.  If Id want brute force, the Hellcat is always there for me...

     

     

     

     

    But is an Acura SUV fun to drive?  

    They sell like 250 NSX per year or something low.  So for the masses that want fun to drive, or want a sports car but need a family hauler and need 1 vehicle to do both, Acura doesn't have it.  The Germans and Alfa Romeo and JLR to can all sell you an SUV that performs like a sports car.    Which is why I think a Mustang Mach E could do well because I bet a lot of people want a Mustang but don't buy it because they worry about RWD in the snowball, or need a to put car seats in it, or fit adults in the back seat, etc, so they go buy an SUV instead.

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    37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    But is an Acura SUV fun to drive?

    Who is talking about SUVs being fun to drive?

    Acura still sells sedans and the NSX. And are righting the ship that Porsche failed to see. 

    Porsche builds CUVs now too...    And all of them are NOT fun to drive....    Their sedan is a bloated, heavy, ugly thing.  Not fun to drive either.   Its sad when Porsche has to remind folk at the  Super Bowl that they build fast exciting supercars with a fake "exciting" heist advert/movie thing...  Pathetic

    37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

     So for the masses that want fun to drive, or want a sports car but need a family hauler and need 1 vehicle to do both, Acura doesn't have it.

    Acura/Honda does well enough.

    Honda also makes motorcycles.  Speedbikes.  Cruisers.   They got the NSX.  They got the new TLX.  The Civic Si.  They got their bases covered.    Again, Porsche  or Ferrari dont have ANYTHING this Honda does...

    Envie2rouler, réseau national de location moto, vous présente la ...

    37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    can all sell you an SUV that performs like a sports car.

    They dont perform like a sports car. They are impressive. But they dont perform like a PURE sports car.  And to be honest, its all that electronic wizz bang technology that makes these SUVs perform which at the same time,  is EXACTLY the problem...  

    1. SUVs are heavy. High center of gravity.  #1 and #2 reasons why that kills fun to drive.

    2. SUVs have electronic nannies helping speed and performance and  preventing bone headed maneuvers.  #3 and #4 reasons why that kills fun to drive.

    3. Those SUVs also have further electronic nannies helping said top heavy SUVs from rolling over.  #5 reason that kills fun to drive...

    4. And those SUVs are marketed to and sold to folk that are in the VERY LEAST....car enthusiasts...  #6 reason why this has killed REAL fun to drive cars to exist...

    HONDA is trying very hard to COUNTER that. Not with SUPER BOWL commercials. But with actual product...

    But you are all over the place...

    44 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    They could have made Omega platform SUVs with a Blackwing V8 that cost more than the Escalade and had potentially an even bigger profit margin.   Although they would have needed an Omega SUV priced below Escalade also to get volume and enough scale on the platform.  Lots of ways to make money, but obviously the platform is dead so it doesn't matter much now.

     

    7 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But American car companies only see profits in pickups and crossovers.

     

    3 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    But still we have Camaro, Corvette, Mustang from America, NSX from Japan (although I think it is made in USA), a super aging GT-R from Japan and a Supra made by Germans.  How do 2 continents produce 5 sports cars?  Ferrari alone probably has 5 cars.  

    What is it?

    Does Chevrolet build SUVs like they have for the last 100 years to make profit, or do they make super sports cars and drop everything else?

    Does Honda STOP producing motorcycles because...they need to focus on outdoing Lamborghinis? 

    Honda has the enthusiast covered in many ways.   Ford has the enthusiast covered in many ways.  (An off roading Bronco is JUST about to enter service)

    37 minutes ago, smk4565 said:

    I bet a lot of people want a Mustang but don't buy it because they worry about RWD in the snowball, or need a to put car seats in it, or fit adults in the back seat, etc, so they go buy an SUV instead.

    Like I said...Ford has them covered...

    Raptor Gets Off-road Cruise Control - SunCruiser

    Ken Block Unleashes The 2017 Ford F-150 Raptor On Winter | F-150 ...

    2017 Ford Raptor - New F-150 Raptor Horsepower, Torque, MPG

     

    Edited by oldshurst442

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    21 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    And yet there are so many left on the road after 35 years.

    Where, I have not seen one in decades. Searching used car and you cannot find them for sale.

    From 1980 to 1990 there are ZERO SL for sale.

    image.png

    For 1990 to 2000 there is only 103 available auto's of the SL class and price is pretty low. Guess they DO NOT hold value long term.

    image.png

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    2 hours ago, oldshurst442 said:

    Who is talking about SUVs being fun to drive?

    Acura still sells sedans and the NSX. And are righting the ship that Porsche failed to see. 

    Porsche builds CUVs now too...    And all of them are NOT fun to drive....    Their sedan is a bloated, heavy, ugly thing.  Not fun to drive either.   Its sad when Porsche has to remind folk at the  Super Bowl that they build fast exciting supercars with a fake "exciting" heist advert/movie thing...  Pathetic

    Acura/Honda does well enough.

     

    They dont perform like a sports car. They are impressive. But they dont perform like a PURE sports car.  And to be honest, its all that electronic wizz bang technology that makes these SUVs perform which at the same time,  is EXACTLY the problem...  

     

    HONDA is trying very hard to COUNTER that. Not with SUPER BOWL commercials. But with actual product...

     

    Acura makes one sedan, a front driver with 200 hp base and a torqueless V6 as the option until that Type S arrives.  Is that thing a CT5 killer?

    Something like 80% of Acura's sales are SUVs.  Lincoln is trending toward 100% SUV,  Cadillac and Lexus are probably pushing 75% SUV, maybe higher.  So  if that is 80% of your brand, I would hope it is a fun to drive product.  Time will tell if there German strategy works or if the Cadillac/Lincoln/Acura strategy works, over the past 20 years the German strategy is winning.  

    1 hour ago, dfelt said:

    Where, I have not seen one in decades. Searching used car and you cannot find them for sale.

    From 1980 to 1990 there are ZERO SL for sale.

    image.png

    For 1990 to 2000 there is only 103 available auto's of the SL class and price is pretty low. Guess they DO NOT hold value long term.

    image.png

    If you search SL on auto trader it only pulls from 1994 and newer because before that it was 500SL, 560SL, 380SL, etc.  The models that lead with a number aren't pulled into that search.  The 80s ones cost more than the 90s or early 2000s SL's.

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    2 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Something like 80% of Acura's sales are SUVs.  Lincoln is trending toward 100% SUV,  Cadillac and Lexus are probably pushing 75% SUV, maybe higher.  So  if that is 80% of your brand, I would hope it is a fun to drive product.  Time will tell if there German strategy works or if the Cadillac/Lincoln/Acura strategy works, over the past 20 years the German strategy is winning.

    Porsche is German and it's 67% SUVs (by volume).
    Are they using the German strategy, or the American?

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    All this is happening because the market went CUV/SUV.  The RDX A-spec is necessary for Acura to do well, especially since the death of the RLX and the diminution of the TLX.

    Now, will Cadillac please upgrade their interiors so that they are competitive with the Telluride/Palisade on all their XT models?

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    16 hours ago, smk4565 said:

    Acura makes one sedan, a front driver with 200 hp base and a torqueless V6 as the option until that Type S arrives.  Is that thing a CT5 killer?

    Something like 80% of Acura's sales are SUVs.  Lincoln is trending toward 100% SUV,  Cadillac and Lexus are probably pushing 75% SUV, maybe higher.  So  if that is 80% of your brand, I would hope it is a fun to drive product.  Time will tell if there German strategy works or if the Cadillac/Lincoln/Acura strategy works, over the past 20 years the German strategy is winning.  

    If you search SL on auto trader it only pulls from 1994 and newer because before that it was 500SL, 560SL, 380SL, etc.  The models that lead with a number aren't pulled into that search.  The 80s ones cost more than the 90s or early 2000s SL's.

    If you look at the screen, they actually have an SL class of auto that pulls before and after with the various classes according to their web site.

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