How to buy American

[RJB]

A very good read about how Americans are still hesitant to buy American cars. Comments are appreciated!

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw/bamw-061129-auto.shtml

[Daryl Z71]

I am posting this wherever I can!

[regfootball]

yeah, but its a cultural thing. those who work the least but make the most have a very self defeatist attitude about US stuff. Some of it is warranted, a lot not. Most of that sentiment is based on the past and the grass is grenner mentality. A product of our own people is not good enough. I am a better person than all you rednecks, so i need to show it by buying things imported.

legitimately though, a big problem is simply that domestics haven't filled as many product niches or built as mnay desirable products. and GM and Ford always seem to lag in features and technology. Although, GM is starting to snap out of this.

Your wife is loyal, pretty, fun to be around, cooks a mean dinner, etc.....but that sexy redhead neighbor chick is so much sexier.

our US and business culture today is one of personal reward first. not much about growing communities, or building families, or strengthening our country. 'i work hard, so i will get what i deserve at everyone else's expense'. 'they screw me, so i will screw them'. No one wants to contribute to the success of others in this country; we are so competitive and so needing to come out on top ourselves, that part of that recipe has to include tearing everyone else down who is a threat. "in order for me to be successful and keep my bitchen job, i have to make sure that those people below me lose their jobs or never ascend to a good position, this is how I stay on top so i can buy nice sh1t for myself. nice imported sh1t." subsequently its ok to fuel foreign economies because 'they are so third world, let them do the cheap manual labor for me, as long as they never threaten my position and they keep those high paid union jerks here from ascending to any sort of position better than me". Many folks would rather see jobs go overseas because they do not see it as a threat to their own personal standing. they still think of people in china and india and stuff is inferior so its ok to USE them to make their sh1t, and keep our own citizens down here, so they can be better than them.

Edited December 15, 2006 by regfootball

[FAPTurbo]

Your wife is loyal, pretty, fun to be around, cooks a mean dinner, etc.....but that sexy redhead neighbor chick is so much sexier.

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[JT64]

Your wife is loyal, pretty, fun to be around, cooks a mean dinner, etc.....but that sexy redhead neighbor chick is so much sexier.

I'll take both. mmmmmm.... it's so good in the middle.

My brothers, everyone take two. We can all have a good life.

Edited December 15, 2006 by JT64

[DBeaSSt]

Well said regfootball.

I keep that site bookmarked and do try to use it first when shopping for things.

It's a nice feeling to know your purchases are supporting more than just the retailer where it was purchased.

I also have one of these in the back window of my car.

[regfootball]

i don't necessarily believe we all have to buy American at all costs....what i do think is people need to evaluate each purchase a little more completely and at least consider the American makes. test drive everything and weigh all the pros and cons of each model and try to give some weight to the notion of supporting your country more. Not everyone can or should buy a domestic car, but in stead of going to the toyota dealer with consumer reports in hand and not testing anything else, i think there needs to be a much better balance there. And the other part to this is GM and Ford etc need to continuously get more competitive and make fewer excuses for some of their crap products.

Edited December 16, 2006 by regfootball

[LTB51]

That article reminds me of that misleading type of advertisement where the manufacturer takes their vehicle and compares it so a series of others. "Better fuel economy than x", "More leg room than y", "More HP than z", etc. Most of the points are probably true, but how hard is it to pick out the weak points of your competitors and show that you are better than that? If you really think about it, the claim being made is often nothing more than the manufacturer's vehicle is slightly better in one area than the competitor who is the worst in that area.

This article took it a step further by being able to pick out the strengths of several companies to compare. Plus he is so obviously misleading on the points that I can verify that I have to doubt everything else he writes that I cannot verify.

Writing things like:

"General Motors also reported a 3.9% rise in August vehicle sales despite high gas prices and a supposedly slowing economy. And even though Toyota reported record sales that month, they couldn’t match the non-record setting sales volume of Ford. GM’s sales rose 17% in October from the same month in 2005 and Ford sales rose 8% in the same period."

…is completely disingenuous. Firstly, he is comparing total numbers and not the daily selling rate. There was one extra day of sales in Aug 2006. Using the DSR GM was unchanged. Further, he is comparing GM's Aug 2006 sales to GM's disastrous Aug 2005 sales after the employee pricing for everyone sales ended. Compared to GM's Aug 2004 sales, Aug 2006 was down 16% based on the DSR. October 2006 was off 6% from 2004 based on the DSR.

Aug 2004:

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...n=6&docid=17843

Aug 2005:

http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet...n=2&docid=28297

Plus I'm a little annoyed that people are still quoting JD Powers results. The recent changes to their survey results show that it was radically inaccurate. And it still can't be trusted because they didn't really resolve the issues that caused it to be inaccurate prior to the changes. If anything they added more. Any person or article that uses JD Powers numbers should be considered poorly researched or dishonest.

Really, if we want GM to have any credibility we have stop clowns like this. He does GM/Ford/etc. no favors by writing misleading garbage like this. And we have to stop being fooled by this crap.

[Satty]

My "American" car is based on a Japanese platform and was built in Mexico. The people who designed it were American, but they've since been laid off.

[Dsuupr]

That article reminds me of that misleading type of advertisement where the manufacturer takes their vehicle and compares it so a series of others. "Better fuel economy than x", "More leg room than y", "More HP than z", etc.  Most of the points are probably true, but how hard is it to pick out the weak points of your competitors and show that you are better than that?  If you really think about it, the claim being made is often nothing more than the manufacturer's vehicle is slightly better in one area than the competitor who is the worst in that area.

You mean, like the media like to do to GM & Ford.

I understand the point their making, even if they have to use specific items to make their point. GM & Ford do make some of the best quality, best gas mileage vehicles in this country. And like he is trying to point out, it's time we recognize that.

[thegriffon]

 

I'll take both.  mmmmmm....  it's so good in the middle.

My brothers, everyone take two.  We can all have a good life.

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Unless you like sharing there aren't enough to go around.

[FAPTurbo]

Unless you like sharing there aren't enough to go around.

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I guess if reg moved to Utah...

[AxelTheRed]

I think that every American should consider buying domestics, but I don't necessarily belive that every car in America should be domestic. Not just because its of the global economy we've got now, but also because, think about it, the roads would be pretty boring if we only saw American cars driving on them.

And even as much as I'm an avid supporter of buying American cars, if I had a Rolls-Royce or an old Volkswagon minibus, they'd definitely be in my rotation, and I'm sure I'm not the only person on this website who loves American cars above all, but still drools over a few imports.

Edited December 16, 2006 by AxelTheRed

[regfootball]

LDS girls, yeah!

I guess if reg moved to Utah...

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[The O.C.]

A very good read about how Americans are still hesitant to buy American cars. Comments are appreciated!

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/bamw/bamw-061129-auto.shtml

227989[/snapback]

It's an interesting read.....but basically the author points to the quality and fuel economy topics and avoids one of the main reasons (perhaps THE main reason) that Americans are not buying as many domestic automobiles as in the past.....

High quality or good fuel economy aside....with a few exceptions, the domestic auto manufacturers are simply not building cars that consumers over here WANT to buy.....be it from a design/style standpoint, features standpoint (pushrod V6s, GM?), or desirability standpoint (ever compare the ride, handling, driving, and interior quality of an Accord versus a Malibu?)

People out here don't buy a domestic car because they don't feel it won't last, or guzzles gas.....the bigger problem is that they don't buy a domestic car because they simply wouldn't be SEEN in one....or simply do not find them as well engineered, designed, or styled.

[The O.C.]

You mean, like the media like to do to GM & Ford. 

GM & Ford do make some of the best quality, best gas mileage vehicles in this country.  And like he is trying to point out, it's time we recognize that.

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......but if no one WANTS to buy them.....?

Guys the issue CONTINUES to be ignored by GM, Ford, and Chrysler. Wagoner and his counterparts need to stop making excuses and whining that they "don't get fair treatment in the media about their accomplishments..." and they need to focus on the REAL problem...

WHY do many consumers simply not DESIRE a domestic automobile?

It's a complex question with no easy answer......but until the Big 3 tackle the REAL problem, no amount of whining over the media will do them ANY good.

[Flybrian]

Ever compare the ride, handling, power, quality, or price of the last generation of Camry and current Corolla to - well - anything else in its class?

Explain then why they remain perennial top-sellers despite the existance of newer and better models from the competition.

My point is, there's no one answer.

[The O.C.]

Ever compare the ride, handling, power, quality, or price of the last generation of Camry and current Corolla to - well - anything else in its class?

Explain then why they remain perennial top-sellers despite the existance of newer and better models from the competition.

My point is, there's no one answer.

230879[/snapback]

You are just trying to find an excuse to Toyota-bash......

They may not be the most exciting vehicles, but the old Camry was still more competent than a comparable Malibu or the old Impala and the current Corolla still has a much-higher level of interior fit-and-finish and material quality than a Cobalt-owner could ever dream of.

Sure Fly....it's poplular to try to bash the Camry and Corolla.....but they are WAY-competent cars....and that's why people keep buying them. (re...I said "competent" not exciting.)

[Flybrian]

and the current Corolla still has a much-higher level of interior fit-and-finish and material quality than a Cobalt-owner could ever dream of.

230885[/snapback]

I will never see eye-to-eye on this based on three different Corollas I've driven.

[Mr.Krinkle]

It's an interesting read.....but basically the author points to the quality and fuel economy topics and avoids one of the main reasons (perhaps THE main reason) that Americans are not buying as many domestic automobiles as in the past.....

High quality or good fuel economy aside....with a few exceptions, the domestic auto manufacturers are simply not building cars that consumers over here WANT to buy.....be it from a design/style standpoint, features standpoint (pushrod V6s, GM?), or desirability standpoint (ever compare the ride, handling, driving, and interior quality of an Accord versus a Malibu?)

People out here don't buy a domestic car because they don't feel it won't last, or guzzles gas.....the bigger problem is that they don't buy a domestic car because they simply wouldn't be SEEN in one....or simply do not find them as well engineered, designed, or styled.

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oc, I recommend a higher spf for you.

The differences are not any where near as dramatic as you suggest. In fact, most people acknowledge the discrepancies...but they are plenty capable.

The way you go on I would think the cobalt came with a crank or standard with a horse pulling it. Im just so glad you crossed PUSHRODS off YOUR $h! list.

The focus of this article is about perception. HINT HINT...and so basically it wont matter what is done because like you say, people (in Cali, at least) dont want to be seen in one. and that means no matter what.

Toyotas have their own stereotypes, at least around here--and they aint all rosy. And lately...whewww. talk about problems.

Edited December 22, 2006 by Mr.Krinkle

[RJB]

oc, I recommend a higher spf for you.

  The differences are not any where near as dramatic as you suggest.  In fact, most people acknowledge the discrepancies...but they are plenty capable. 

The way you go on I would think the cobalt came with a crank or standard with a horse pulling it.  Im just so glad you crossed PUSHRODS off YOUR $h! list.

The focus of this  article is about  perception.  HINT HINT...and so basically it wont matter what is done because like you say, people (in Cali, at least) dont want to be seen in one.  and that means no matter what.

Toyotas have their own stereotypes, at least around here--and they aint all rosy.  And lately...whewww.  talk about problems.

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I am sad to O.C. has a point ot an extent(just an extent). I emailed this to some people I know out west and they openly do not like American vehicles. It all comes down to the current styles the domestics are coming out with. The Impala for instance which was a highlight of the article still has a blue collar nascar stigma attached to it which makes alot of people (the ones I talked to) run away as well as the Monte Carlo. The current vehicles coming out from GM and Ford they do not like, were as they are a little more in favor of Chryslers designs. I think that trend will change for the better in favor of GM and Ford in the near future.

But alot of it comes from this point, the people I talked to love the more expensive cars from GM, out of their price range, but they said GM or Ford for that matter do not have anything at all that is attractive to them in their price range. Aveos and Cobalts don't cut it and neither does the Impala or the current Malibu(which will change for the better) the G6 is mediocre. Hmmm...oh well.

[The O.C.]

oc, I recommend a higher spf for you.

The way you go on I would think the cobalt came with a crank or standard with a horse pulling it. 

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OK....here's all my Cobalt bitches.......since you brought it up......

The good? An attractive exterior design.......a great engine.......

That's about it.

Seriously sub-standard interior fit-and-finish and materials, cheap feeling switchgear....specifically HVAC controls (they thankfully integrated the GM-corporate radio.) Average seats. Dull driving dynamics (except SS and SS supercharged.) Basically the base car feels rental-grade.

For example, a base Focus still feels like a driver's car. It's rental-grade also, but doesn't feel like it.

I guess it all boils down to the cheap feel that the car imparts to me.....much of it coming from the interior.

[The O.C.]

I am sad to O.C. has a point ot an extent(just an extent). I emailed this to some people I know out west and they openly do not like American vehicles. It all comes down to the current styles the domestics are coming out with. The Impala for instance which was a highlight of the article still has a blue collar nascar stigma attached to it which makes alot of people (the ones I talked to) run away as well as the Monte Carlo. The current vehicles coming out from GM and Ford they do not like, were as they are a little more in favor of Chryslers designs. I think that trend will change for the better in favor of GM and Ford in the near future.

But alot of it comes from this point, the people I talked to love the more expensive cars from GM, out of their price range, but they said GM or Ford for that matter do not have anything at all that is attractive to them in their price range. Aveos and Cobalts don't cut it and neither does the Impala or the current Malibu(which will change for the better) the G6 is mediocre. Hmmm...oh well.

231011[/snapback]

"SAD to say?" Eff YOU...! (J/K)

Seriously though.....your post hit the nail on the head.

My whole mantra with GM has been......when they can execute an Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, and Impala with the same high level of competence that they have the Corvette, CTS, or even the GMT-900s (even considering their third-row discrepancies, etc.) then they will have turned the corner.

Cobalt is close......IF it only had the Astra/Vectra level of interior quality......that would be a MAJOR step. Impala will never get there as long as it's still derived from a decade's-old architecture. New Malibu? I have REALLY high hopes....and like what i see so far. Just ditch the pushrod V6s and the 4-speeds.

Look at the new Lambas....! WONDERFUL.......and they'll show the competition some major aches and pains.....

[CARBIZ]

But I guess it is what is important to YOU, isn't it? The Cobalt (base) will outhandle the Corolla, has a lot more standard features (automatic headlights, power trunk release, split rear seat, hydraulic trunk lifts for more available trunks space, etc.), but most of the pundits whine and complain about switch gear and hard plastics.

News flash: those customers who ignore the whining at CR and MT don't give a flying F%$k about plastics. In the presence of a decent test drive and a knowledgeable salesperson, they appreciate the things that matter. I can understand the bitching and whining about the Cavalier, which did have atrocious plastics and fit, but other than the cheaper fabrics (which stain easily, I might add) on the Cobalts, there is nothing wrong with the interior. The LTs and higher even have a nice interior.

The real problem here is that since the Cavalier's welcome was way-overstayed, the import humpers won't give GM a break now. GM was drunk on the truck bubble of the late '90s, okay? That we all agree on. They didn't give a $h! about the car market, period. NOw they have seen the light and are building quite decent, even great cars, but everyone remembers the Cavalier.

Sigh. I've had customers driving 8 year old Cavaliers, who readily admit is has been problem free, but are now looking at the Civic/Corolla because they are "better." I wonder where they could have learned that from?

[ellives]

But I guess it is what is important to YOU, isn't it? The Cobalt (base) will outhandle the Corolla, has a lot more standard features (automatic headlights, power trunk release, split rear seat, hydraulic trunk lifts for more available trunks space, etc.), but most of the pundits whine and complain about switch gear and hard plastics.

News flash: those customers who ignore the whining at CR and MT don't give a flying F%$k about plastics. In the presence of a decent test drive and a knowledgeable salesperson, they appreciate the things that matter. I can understand the bitching and whining about the Cavalier, which did have atrocious plastics and fit, but other than the cheaper fabrics (which stain easily, I might add) on the Cobalts, there is nothing wrong with the interior. The LTs and higher even have a nice interior.

The real problem here is that since the Cavalier's welcome was way-overstayed, the import humpers won't give GM a break now. GM was drunk on the truck bubble of the late '90s, okay? That we all agree on. They didn't give a $h! about the car market, period. NOw they have seen the light and are building quite decent, even great cars, but everyone remembers the Cavalier.

Sigh. I've had customers driving 8 year old Cavaliers, who readily admit is has been problem free, but are now looking at the Civic/Corolla because they are "better." I wonder where they could have learned that from?

It's all just herd mentality. My son and I were just talking about this perception problem today. He was commenting that one of his friends doesn't know WHAT brands are GM brands and didn't know Lexus is part of Toyota. This is the same friend that told him how great Toyotas are. Why would he say this? Ignorance is bliss I guess. (He's also the same friend that bitches about his parents Honda with a failed transmission.)

I REALLY have an urge to print a banner for the back of my car that says something like " Nah - GM can't build quality cars... This 1997 Cadillac you're following has 130,000 miles on it. Wanna race?"

Anybody have any other good ideas for a trunk banner I can use?

Edited December 28, 2006 by ellives

[Drew Dowdell]

If DOHC is such a savior, fine interiors such a savior, why is Olds where it is today?

[ellives]

If DOHC is such a savior, fine interiors such a savior, why is Olds where it is today?

Olds was a victim of the inept GM marketing machine. The Aurora is proof of this. Great car. No one knew what the brand was. This situation was simply criminal given GM's brand identity problems that linger on even today.

[regfootball]

OK....here's all my Cobalt bitches.......since you brought it up......

The good? An attractive exterior design.......a great engine.......

That's about it.

Seriously sub-standard interior fit-and-finish and materials, cheap feeling switchgear....specifically HVAC controls (they thankfully integrated the GM-corporate radio.) Average seats. Dull driving dynamics (except SS and SS supercharged.) Basically the base car feels rental-grade.

For example, a base Focus still feels like a driver's car. It's rental-grade also, but doesn't feel like it.

I guess it all boils down to the cheap feel that the car imparts to me.....much of it coming from the interior.

The cobalt's interior is not that horrible. It's not top drawer, but its not as bad as a cavalier.

[The O.C.]

But I guess it is what is important to YOU, isn't it? The Cobalt (base) will outhandle the Corolla, has a lot more standard features (automatic headlights, power trunk release, split rear seat, hydraulic trunk lifts for more available trunks space, etc.), but most of the pundits whine and complain about switch gear and hard plastics.

News flash: those customers who ignore the whining at CR and MT don't give a flying F%$k about plastics. In the presence of a decent test drive and a knowledgeable salesperson, they appreciate the things that matter. I can understand the bitching and whining about the Cavalier, which did have atrocious plastics and fit, but other than the cheaper fabrics (which stain easily, I might add) on the Cobalts, there is nothing wrong with the interior. The LTs and higher even have a nice interior.

The real problem here is that since the Cavalier's welcome was way-overstayed, the import humpers won't give GM a break now. GM was drunk on the truck bubble of the late '90s, okay? That we all agree on. They didn't give a $h! about the car market, period. NOw they have seen the light and are building quite decent, even great cars, but everyone remembers the Cavalier.

Sigh. I've had customers driving 8 year old Cavaliers, who readily admit is has been problem free, but are now looking at the Civic/Corolla because they are "better." I wonder where they could have learned that from?

First of all, your statement that a Cobalt will "outhandle" a Corolla appears to be total conjecture on your part......a general statement that has no facts to back it up.

Let's look at figures for a recent MT economy-car comparison that pitted, amongst others, a Cobalt LS sedan with the (then optional) "Sport" package including P205/55R-16 Pirelli P6 tires.....versus a Corolla XRS equipped with (smaller) P195/55R-16 Michelin Pilot Primacy tires.....

Braking 60-0:

Cobalt 140 ft

Corolla 123 ft

600-ft Slalom:

Cobalt 61.7 mph

Corolla 66.8 mph

Skidpad:

Cobalt 0.79g

Corolla 0.85g

Seems to me....at least by the numbers....this indicates that the Corolla spanks a Cobalt in the handling department. AND, by the way, the as-tested prices were within $200 of each other....the cars were similarly-equipped and priced similarly (both in the mid-$19K range.)

[The O.C.]

If DOHC is such a savior, fine interiors such a savior, why is Olds where it is today?

The 3.5L "shortstar" was a lackluster engine, multi-cams or not.......

The interiors, while the best at GM at the time, still didn't hit GM a home-run compared to contemporary imports of the time (if that's what you are comparing them to.)

[The O.C.]

The cobalt's interior is not that horrible. It's not top drawer, but its not as bad as a cavalier.

I understand the point you are trying to make.....

......but if this is the rationale that GM is using when developing (cost-cutting?) a new product, do you really think that's a recipe for success in today's (challenging) marketplace? Your statement smacks of "traditional GM thinking...."

In fact, on an email exchange I had with Lutz a year or so ago, and I complained about the interior quality on the Cobalt, his words were, and I quote......

"....you have to admit, though, we've made a significant step up from the old Cavalier....."

Edited December 28, 2006 by The O.C.

[ellives]

I understand the point you are trying to make.....

......but if this is the rationale that GM is using when developing (cost-cutting?) a new product, do you really think that's a recipe for success in today's (challenging) marketplace? Your statement smacks of "traditional GM thinking...."

In fact, on an email exchange I had with Lutz a year or so ago, and I complained about the interior quality on the Cobalt, his words were, and I quote......

"....you have to admit, though, we've made a significant step up from the old Cavalier....."

Funny I was thinking exactly the same thing about the "GM thinking" when I read his post. While no can reasonably argue with Lutz on his point, it's immaterial and goes to the heart of GM's problems. As long as they measure themselves against their own products and/or bring products to the market that are just "good enough" the future will not be bright.

[ellives]

First of all, your statement that a Cobalt will "outhandle" a Corolla appears to be total conjecture on your part......a general statement that has no facts to back it up.

Let's look at figures for a recent MT economy-car comparison that pitted, amongst others, a Cobalt LS sedan with the (then optional) "Sport" package including P205/55R-16 Pirelli P6 tires.....versus a Corolla XRS equipped with (smaller) P195/55R-16 Michelin Pilot Primacy tires.....

Braking 60-0:

Cobalt 140 ft

Corolla 123 ft

600-ft Slalom:

Cobalt 61.7 mph

Corolla 66.8 mph

Skidpad:

Cobalt 0.79g

Corolla 0.85g

Seems to me....at least by the numbers....this indicates that the Corolla spanks a Cobalt in the handling department. AND, by the way, the as-tested prices were within $200 of each other....the cars were similarly-equipped and priced similarly (both in the mid-$19K range.)

The only bone of contention I'd have with this statement is on the pricing. We all know Toyota dealers don't yield much discount off sticker whereas Chevy dealers give away the farm so the real effect is the Cobalt is actually a fair amount cheaper than the Corolla. I suppose we could argue about the residual value after 4 years but this difference is probably somewhat reflective of the difference in original purchase cost I suspect.

[The O.C.]

The only bone of contention I'd have with this statement is on the pricing. We all know Toyota dealers don't yield much discount off sticker whereas Chevy dealers give away the farm so the real effect is the Cobalt is actually a fair amount cheaper than the Corolla. I suppose we could argue about the residual value after 4 years but this difference is probably somewhat reflective of the difference in original purchase cost I suspect.

Hmmmm maybe.....but I wouldn't be surprised to see Toyota dealers discounting the "old" Corolla.....

[CARBIZ]

Figures lie and liars figure. I sell the Corolla and the Cobalt. Back to back, the Cobalt "spanks" the Corolla every time. I prove that all the time with my customers. The Corolla rattles and shakes, literally. Far too much twisting in the frame over pot holes and frost heaves (and, boy, do we have a lot of those up here!). Now, the Mazda 3 and new Civic will give the Cobalt a run for its money, but NO WAY, NO HOW will the Corolla. Drive them yourself, then chime in.

And the LS Cobalt has NEVER been available with the "sport package", only the LT. Not sure if that was MT's mistake or a typo.

As to the transaction prices between the two vehicles - yes, indeed - the Cobalt sells for a minimum of $1,200 less than the Corolla (I am talking Canadian dollars, dearies!) and that is before all the loyalty programs, 0 financing thrown in!

[regfootball]

while the cobalt interior still has some upgrading to do in terms of plastics quality, overall, the car is palatable for the price class it sells in. Now, if they could convince the cost cutters to simply upgrade the sheen and texture of some of those plastics it would help a lot. But honestly, as much as we have continual problems within GM and Ford for rampant cost cutting, the fact is this sort of mentality is rampant in American business. Trust me, I work for a developer contractor after years of doing 'for public bid' work on schools and let me tell you, once the motivation of the company selling the product becomes profit for the good of the company, the financiers take over. In America we have glorified those in business who only focus on numbers. Most often the easiest way for the company to exist as a company and continue to gurantee fat salaries for the decision makers and movers and shakers is to simply cost cut the project, but market the hell out of it. It seems that over time then, the Japanese approach of trying to actually improve the product has caught on to some degree with the buying public so that they are now quite sensitive to the perceived quality on the surface. Yet, our decision makers in Detroit cannot commit themselves to fully respond to that yet because they are all still very conditioned to think cost cutting first. And in truth, a big part of that is their challenges with health care costs and union labor that Korean makers do not have for example. Now, that does not mean its an excuse for GM to cost cut, but it is a motivation. Clearly it works part of the time and a lot more recently seems to be failing them.

So the term that is used every hour on the hour in my buisiness of slapping cheesy box buildings up is 'value engineering'. Do you think in an atmosphere such as that, do you think the customer is honored as the ultimate person to be pleased? DO you think the designers and engineers are given the ability to fully protect the quality of the end product?

No, because in America, the bean counters and MBa's with no concern for anything other than their own paycheck and corporate standing could give a flying f@#k about whether the low-mid income American family can actually afford an Uplander with nice plastic. They figure they need the van no matter what, and if they market the snot out of it, they will sell it no matter what. It's easier to slap a cash incentive on it than it is to add the overhead in the manufacturing end. That's a business decision.

I am one of the few people on this board that has ever owned a Toyota. I owned a 99 Chevy Prism which we all know was a Corolla. It was the first new car I ever bought. My choices at the time were Cavalier and Prism. That's all the budget I had. The Prism was defintely the more refined piece when it was new. But after 3 years with it it felt like every bit the $h!box it was. Nothing broke down, but at the same time it felt flimsy and cheap and really some of the superficial things we all bitch about on here like plastics quality, it did not wow me after 3 years like it maybe did when it was new. I was left thinking the car was more flimsy than refined.

So different virtues about a car surface when it is new versus old. In terms of quality feeling over time, some imports still feel and look ok and some don't. I've seen plenty of older Hondas that look like $h! over time and feel like beaten up wet noodles. Yet, my father in law's Old's 88 has a body that is still stout and rigid at 165.000 miles....even if his plastic is cheaper and he's had to fix the tranny.

As far as the Cobalt I am not sure it is worth any more development. In reality, the Cobalt needs to be upsized to be on par with the new Sentra and Elantra. Compacts now are supposed to feel more spacious. Even the Mazda 3 feels spacious. So the delta is already out of date. GM should $h! can this platform soon and get a real global new compact platform on line that is larger than the current one and has actual leg room in the back. The Jetta right now is about the perfect compact car in size. The Aveo could then grow in size a bit to be like a Yaris.

More on plastics. I scoped out an Outlook tonight for the first time. through the window glass, it still looks like the general is not 100% matching the best in plastics quality but it appeared to be much more acceptable than before. So its obvious that the beancounters still have the highest regard. They are all just trying to find the right amount they have to stick into it so it won't get ripped and not spend so much and so that no one comments on it. Even Toyota's new Camry has been getting ripped for interior cheapness so its easy to say that now that they conduct business here they are not immune from the poisoned ideals of American business culture.

If you want real change in how American companies design and build things so that the end focus is what the customer wants in terms of quality, the business model has to change a bit to allow the designers and engineers and customers to be the end winners. But we glorify the pricks in business so much and they have figured out how to make a living stripping others of what they should get so such is life.

Edited December 29, 2006 by regfootball

[ellives]

[...snipped...]

Drive them yourself, then chime in.

And the LS Cobalt has NEVER been available with the "sport package", only the LT. Not sure if that was MT's mistake or a typo.

[...snipped...]

Maybe MT's intentional mistake? Maybe more anti-GM spin on the part of the media? Hmmmm....

Either way it makes me want to go out and test drive a Cobalt myself.

[ellives]

while the cobalt interior still has some upgrading to do in terms of plastics quality, overall, the car is palatable for the price class it sells in. Now, if they could convince the cost cutters to simply upgrade the sheen and texture of some of those plastics it would help a lot. But honestly, as much as we have continual problems within GM and Ford for rampant cost cutting, the fact is this sort of mentality is rampant in American business. Trust me, I work for a developer contractor after years of doing 'for public bid' work on schools and let me tell you, once the motivation of the company selling the product becomes profit for the good of the company, the financiers take over. In America we have glorified those in business who only focus on numbers. Most often the easiest way for the company to exist as a company and continue to gurantee fat salaries for the decision makers and movers and shakers is to simply cost cut the project, but market the hell out of it. It seems that over time then, the Japanese approach of trying to actually improve the product has caught on to some degree with the buying public so that they are now quite sensitive to the perceived quality on the surface. Yet, our decision makers in Detroit cannot commit themselves to fully respond to that yet because they are all still very conditioned to think cost cutting first. And in truth, a big part of that is their challenges with health care costs and union labor that Korean makers do not have for example. Now, that does not mean its an excuse for GM to cost cut, but it is a motivation. Clearly it works part of the time and a lot more recently seems to be failing them.

So the term that is used every hour on the hour in my buisiness of slapping cheesy box buildings up is 'value engineering'. Do you think in an atmosphere such as that, do you think the customer is honored as the ultimate person to be pleased? DO you think the designers and engineers are given the ability to fully protect the quality of the end product?

No, because in America, the bean counters and MBa's with no concern for anything other than their own paycheck and corporate standing could give a flying f@#k about whether the low-mid income American family can actually afford an Uplander with nice plastic. They figure they need the van no matter what, and if they market the snot out of it, they will sell it no matter what. It's easier to slap a cash incentive on it than it is to add the overhead in the manufacturing end. That's a business decision.

I am one of the few people on this board that has ever owned a Toyota. I owned a 99 Chevy Prism which we all know was a Corolla. It was the first new car I ever bought. My choices at the time were Cavalier and Prism. That's all the budget I had. The Prism was defintely the more refined piece when it was new. But after 3 years with it it felt like every bit the $h!box it was. Nothing broke down, but at the same time it felt flimsy and cheap and really some of the superficial things we all bitch about on here like plastics quality, it did not wow me after 3 years like it maybe did when it was new. I was left thinking the car was more flimsy than refined.

So different virtues about a car surface when it is new versus old. In terms of quality feeling over time, some imports still feel and look ok and some don't. I've seen plenty of older Hondas that look like $h! over time and feel like beaten up wet noodles. Yet, my father in law's Old's 88 has a body that is still stout and rigid at 165.000 miles....even if his plastic is cheaper and he's had to fix the tranny.

As far as the Cobalt I am not sure it is worth any more development. In reality, the Cobalt needs to be upsized to be on par with the new Sentra and Elantra. Compacts now are supposed to feel more spacious. Even the Mazda 3 feels spacious. So the delta is already out of date. GM should $h! can this platform soon and get a real global new compact platform on line that is larger than the current one and has actual leg room in the back. The Jetta right now is about the perfect compact car in size. The Aveo could then grow in size a bit to be like a Yaris.

More on plastics. I scoped out an Outlook tonight for the first time. through the window glass, it still looks like the general is not 100% matching the best in plastics quality but it appeared to be much more acceptable than before. So its obvious that the beancounters still have the highest regard. They are all just trying to find the right amount they have to stick into it so it won't get ripped and not spend so much and so that no one comments on it. Even Toyota's new Camry has been getting ripped for interior cheapness so its easy to say that now that they conduct business here they are not immune from the poisoned ideals of American business culture.

If you want real change in how American companies design and build things so that the end focus is what the customer wants in terms of quality, the business model has to change a bit to allow the designers and engineers and customers to be the end winners. But we glorify the pricks in business so much and they have figured out how to make a living stripping others of what they should get so such is life.

Wow.

[The O.C.]

Figures lie and liars figure. I sell the Corolla and the Cobalt. Back to back, the Cobalt "spanks" the Corolla every time. I prove that all the time with my customers. The Corolla rattles and shakes, literally. Far too much twisting in the frame over pot holes and frost heaves (and, boy, do we have a lot of those up here!). Now, the Mazda 3 and new Civic will give the Cobalt a run for its money, but NO WAY, NO HOW will the Corolla. Drive them yourself, then chime in.

And the LS Cobalt has NEVER been available with the "sport package", only the LT. Not sure if that was MT's mistake or a typo.

As to the transaction prices between the two vehicles - yes, indeed - the Cobalt sells for a minimum of $1,200 less than the Corolla (I am talking Canadian dollars, dearies!) and that is before all the loyalty programs, 0 financing thrown in!

I have.....both....on a few occasions.

I don't like the conservative image of the Corolla, or it's rental-queen image, but I've never found it to be anything less than competent......

Any Cobalt I've driven has never felt nearly as solid.....it's much better looking, with a much more attractive powertrain, but seriously lags Corolla in interior design and quality and isn't necessarily better (or worse) in ride-and-handling.

[rkmdogs]

It must be the ocean breezes, or the lack of salt on the roads to have such a vast difference of opinion

on the perception of "quality" from the West Coast whiners to the East Coast beligerants.

I wish that one or more of these opinionated armchair "experts" would define "quality".

That seems to be the mystical "smoke in a bottle" myth.

One says its the quality of the plastics. How is that defined, please? Others say it

is the "fit" of components, or the "feel". How do you measure that one?

Perceptions are wonderful things. They are like opinions, which are like assholes. Everybody has got one!

Anybody out there ever heard of the American Society for Testing and Materials? (Commonly called ASTM)

This is a prestigious standards-writing body composed of some of the best minds from many fields.

They won't touch defining those terms with a ten-foot pole!

Now we get to the issue of propaganda. That is another oldie too. The best line written on that subject was

by a guy named Adolph Hitler, and his concept of the "big lie". In theory it says that if you say something long enough

and loud enough, eventually you will get the majority of people to believe whatever B/S you tell them.

Well, the automotive press has been doing that for years, for money and other favors, and now the great unwashed accept it as gospel.

But they are not alone. The other side of that coin is actually two-faced. One of those faces was Detroit, who contemptuously

felt that the public was too dumb to know, and what I give them is the best! The other face was a litigious one from Washington,

D.C., who read chicken little and the sky is falling too many times and felt that THEY had to step in and by legislative decree

TELL our domestic manufacturers how they had to build cars.

The combination of these forces is what opened the door to foreign manufacturers coming here with anything that they could throw together, and saying we don't have to follow your orders, 'cause we don't make it here!

Then the sooth-sayers wrote their revelations about how bad the domestic industry was, and how good the foreign makers were,

because they listened to their people.......... and the crap went on and on..................

Now the chickens have come home to roost. I don't know the age or level of experience or exposure that all these critics have in this

business, but the more I hear, the more it sounds like chicken little........ people yapping about things of which they have no

expert knowledge or training!

Keep it up, and you will make this forum a bigger laughing stock than it already has become!!

...........And that's the truth!!

[haypops]

Edited January 1, 2007 by haypops

[haypops]

I have.....both....on a few occasions.

I don't like the conservative image of the Corolla, or it's rental-queen image, but I've never found it to be anything less than competent......

I have both too. My wife and daughter just got back from a round trip from Pasadena to Paradise, CA (over the grape vine). There is no question in my mind that the GM (actually its an ION) was a safer choice than would have been the Corolla. Have you driven both with automatic transmissions under a reasonable load (800 pounds)?

[rkmdogs]

Do Toyotas not have sealed headlights, are they not required to have OBD II diagnostics, do they not need to maintain replacement parts for ten years?

rmkdogs: This post may feel like I am picking on technicalities and in doing so that I am picking on you. Perhaps. However, this website seems to be for automotive hobbyist to learn and to increase their enjoyment of cars by shooting the breeze. Your signature line and post content seems to be aimed at intimidating and bullying. I resolve not to continue with these trite attacks next year.

Well for one who doesn't want to pick on technicalities, it would be nice if you got your facts correct. My

name is not rmkdogs, it is rkmdogs....... just to clear a point.

AND, Toyotas and other manufacturers who have styled headlamp assemblies DO NOT have sealed

headlights. You need to go check SAE definitions. That mandate was thrown out many years ago, after

the creation of halogen lamps. The diagnostics you refer to did not come into being until 1996. And who

says that manufacturers have to maintain a store of parts for ten years? That is a self-imposed business practice, to pacify customers.

Your nit-picking is again a tip-off of the mentality of the people who have come to this site, for purposes other than the sharing of automotive knowledge. That is truly regretable.

Have a nice new year and enjoy your rice-paper hot-rods!!

Eat them while you look thru the help-wanted ads for a meaningful job, after yours gets shipped off-shore.

In your locale tho, they might be in Spanish.

[ellives]

Opinions are not like assholes. An opinions is a judgment not founded on data. Assholes on the other hand are sphincter muscles much like the cardiac and iliac sphincter muscles. The first is a thought, the latter is a circular muscle capable of opening and closing.

Actually his first phrase was incomplete. It goes more like "opinions are like assholes.... everyone has one and they all stink..." Thus the detailed analysis above really doesn't make any sense when applied against the correct expression.

[ellives]

Well for one who doesn't want to pick on technicalities, it would be nice if you got your facts correct. My

name is not rmkdogs, it is rkmdogs....... just to clear a point.

AND, Toyotas and other manufacturers who have styled headlamp assemblies DO NOT have sealed

headlights. You need to go check SAE definitions. That mandate was thrown out many years ago, after

the creation of halogen lamps. The diagnostics you refer to did not come into being until 1996. And who

says that manufacturers have to maintain a store of parts for ten years? That is a self-imposed business practice, to pacify customers.

Your nit-picking is again a tip-off of the mentality of the people who have come to this site, for purposes other than the sharing of automotive knowledge. That is truly regretable.

Have a nice new year and enjoy your rice-paper hot-rods!!

Eat them while you look thru the help-wanted ads for a meaningful job, after yours gets shipped off-shore.

In your locale tho, they might be in Spanish.

Is there a point here? The flow of the logic of the posting is all over the place and seems to mix the challenges of the domestic auto industry vs. imports with problems with US immigration.

[haypops]

My name is not rmkdogs, it is rkmdogs....... just to clear a point.

Sorry about the screen name thing. I have had mine mangled elsewhere so I know it can be annoying.

[The O.C.]

I have both too. My wife and daughter just got back from a round trip from Pasadena to Paradise, CA (over the grape vine). There is no question in my mind that the GM (actually its an ION) was a safer choice than would have been the Corolla. Have you driven both with automatic transmissions under a reasonable load (800 pounds)?

There's no question that an automatic-equipped Cobalt will outrun an automatic-equipped Corolla......

.....but the original point that I was debating was the blanket statement that "a Cobalt outhandles a Corolla..." Similarly-equipped, price-wise, that appears not to be the case necessarily.....

[CARBIZ]

Sorry, but I drive them every day and I vehemently disagree. There is one stretch of road nearby that is full of frost heaves and potholes (a lot of truck traffic) and I make sure my customers drive over that stretch so they can see how solid the new vehicles handle. I wait for the customers to remark on why is the Corolla rattling so much? There is literal cowl shake in the frame. The 2007 is better than previous years, but it is noticeable.

The Corolla is probably a great car for my great aunt, but for anybody else, especially some young buck who thinks he is Mario Andretti, they will be sorely disappointed by the Corolla. The LS and LT Cobalts are no rockets, but they do feel solid and well put together. The SS with the 2.4 is more respectable in terms of 0-60 times and quarter miles, but that is only important to a much smaller segment of small car buyers.

This is where figures lie. If you DRIVE the Cobalt and the Corolla (apples to apples) back to back, the Cobalt FEELS the more solid and put together. I am convinced that Toyota puts their cars together so they show up well in the C&D/MT tests, but in the real world, that is a different matter.

[ellives]

Sorry, but I drive them every day and I vehemently disagree. There is one stretch of road nearby that is full of frost heaves and potholes (a lot of truck traffic) and I make sure my customers drive over that stretch so they can see how solid the new vehicles handle. I wait for the customers to remark on why is the Corolla rattling so much? There is literal cowl shake in the frame. The 2007 is better than previous years, but it is noticeable.

The Corolla is probably a great car for my great aunt, but for anybody else, especially some young buck who thinks he is Mario Andretti, they will be sorely disappointed by the Corolla. The LS and LT Cobalts are no rockets, but they do feel solid and well put together. The SS with the 2.4 is more respectable in terms of 0-60 times and quarter miles, but that is only important to a much smaller segment of small car buyers.

This is where figures lie. If you DRIVE the Cobalt and the Corolla (apples to apples) back to back, the Cobalt FEELS the more solid and put together. I am convinced that Toyota puts their cars together so they show up well in the C&D/MT tests, but in the real world, that is a different matter.

There *does* seem to be a theme here with Toyota whereby they seem to very often to play the game focused on purely how things will be measured. Obviously it's a smart tactic but it's not necessarily a way to make the best car.

[The O.C.]

This is where figures lie. If you DRIVE the Cobalt and the Corolla (apples to apples) back to back, the Cobalt FEELS the more solid and put together. I am convinced that Toyota puts their cars together so they show up well in the C&D/MT tests, but in the real world, that is a different matter.

Obviously you've got your mind set up.....

The Deltas that I've driven have had a clunky, flexy feel to the chassis......certainly not the "more solid and put together" you describe above......