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GM Burning Cash Article

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I also favor splitting off the troubled North American business from the profitable overseas units and issuing stock in the latter. That way GM could either sell that business without affecting the profitable portions of GM or close it altogether and take a tax write-off from the U.S. government, if things get worse there. I need to ramp up this message in GME.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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Yeah..

Maybe GMNA could actually lead agin if it didn't have the GME political noose around it's neck

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I also favor splitting off the troubled North American business from the profitable overseas units and issuing stock in the latter. That way GM could either sell that business without affecting the profitable portions of GM or close it altogether and take a tax write-off from the U.S. government, if things get worse there. I need to ramp up this message in GME.

Here's hoping the UAW and General Motors discover the meaning of spartan and symbiotic right quick. No more rich buyouts unless it's a for 'once and all' type deal. The old days were done long ago. Good luck to both entities.

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It makes sense...

No, it doesn't.

Half of GM's engineering that it will need to survive in the next decade - EcoTec engine development, smaller platform architectures - is centered in Europe and Korea.

Stock analysts like these kind of moves because they shake up the market and increase speculation, which is good for them - but $h!ty for actual product development. Not to mention the effect on corporate morale - it turns everything into a saleable asset, rather than an integral part of the company.

For those who will instantly compare this to Ford's sell-off of Jaguar and Land Rover, that's not an apt comparison because neither of those brands did much that was innovative on their own - they borrowed from the larger engineering centers of Ford Europe and Volvo Cars. (This is why I still think selling Volvo Cars would be a horrible mistake - they have done, and continue to do, a lot for Ford.)

What needs to happen is a serious rethink of how GM develops its vehicles - every vehicle should have the strongest possible case to be able to be sold to as many buyers around the world as possible. Whether this is derived from something as simple as offering different powertrain choices in various countries, or is more complex like substantial platform-sharing arrangements, each vehicle needs to make a case for itself.

Splitting the company into digestible chunks, however, is the fastest way to having no company at all.

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No, it doesn't.

Half of GM's engineering that it will need to survive in the next decade - EcoTec engine development, smaller platform architectures - is centered in Europe and Korea.

Who's talking about Europe or Korea? We are talking about GMNA, as in North America. Did you even read the article? :rolleyes:

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I also favor splitting off the troubled North American business from the profitable overseas units and issuing stock in the latter. That way GM could either sell that business without affecting the profitable portions of GM or close it altogether and take a tax write-off from the U.S. government, if things get worse there. I need to ramp up this message in GME.

Are you suggesting having GM Europe sell European versions of GM cars here in the US as Chevrolet and Cadillac or having GM pulling completely out of the American market altogether (as in no GM at all in NA?)? GM, whether it's run by the Europeans or still headquartered in the US, still has quite a bit of brand recognition. If the product is there, I say people won't care if the car was developed in Europe or not.

Incidentally, isn't GM basically going to have cars being developed in Europe and trucks and Caddy developed in NA anyway?

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I also favor splitting off the troubled North American business from the profitable overseas units and issuing stock in the latter. That way GM could either sell that business without affecting the profitable portions of GM or close it altogether and take a tax write-off from the U.S. government, if things get worse there. I need to ramp up this message in GME.

I re-read your post - and I see what you mean - sort of a "just in case" things get worse GMNA doesn't drag down the whole deck of cards all over the world. Probably not a bad strategy.

I think GM can pull it off here in NA though - keep the product coming, and start marketing better.

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Who's talking about Europe or Korea? We are talking about GMNA, as in North America. Did you even read the article? :rolleyes:

I did, thanks. And this is what I read:

One far-out idea, which sources close to the company say has been floated by a New York investment firm, would be to split off the troubled North American business from the profitable overseas units and issue stock in the latter.

Translation: Remove GME/Holden/Daewoo from the company as the "stronger" side, leaving GMNA to survive on its own (perhaps called something else, though we would know better).

You may personally translate that in the opposite direction - removing GMNA and leaving GME/Holden/Daewoo to survive - but my definition is how such a move would eventually pan out in regards to the home country's industry. (Remember, GM is still an American company. Remember?)

Feel free to ask yourself how the separation of Chrysler from Daimler panned out. My view is that a stronger Daimler took what it could use, then excised Chrysler and threw it out like so much dead weight - allowing Chrysler's stock to plunge, since clearly Daimler had "no faith" in their American arm's abilities.

I'd rather not see a similar situation as to what has happened/is happening with Chrysler (merger with large auto company, later buyout by investment group, subsequent misdirection and economizing, and probable eventual sale as a tax write-off) or MG-Rover (basically the same, but with complete collapse of the organization first before the tax sale).

Australians should consider this an ominous prospect as well - what use would GME/Daewoo have for anything that Holden is able to provide, except on a token level?

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Are you suggesting having GM Europe sell European versions of GM cars here in the US as Chevrolet and Cadillac or having GM pulling completely out of the American market altogether (as in no GM at all in NA?)? GM, whether it's run by the Europeans or still headquartered in the US, still has quite a bit of brand recognition. If the product is there, I say people won't care if the car was developed in Europe or not.

Incidentally, isn't GM basically going to have cars being developed in Europe and trucks and Caddy developed in NA anyway?

Bob here is what I am suggesting. Look at GM as if it were a patient that had bone cancer of the leg. The doctors will evaluate the condition of the patient, then after the test come back in, they will recommend a course of action. If it's not to bad they will treat it with radiation and chemotherapy. If that doesn't work and the cancer threatens the life of the patient, then drastic measures may need to be taken, such as amputation up to the knee or perhaps the whole leg might need to be removed to stop the spread of the disease.

GMNA has had the radiation and chemotherapy treatments and the disease in North America is getting worse not better. Perhaps now is the time GM has to look at what is better for GM as a whole, should it risk death with a diseased limb, or amputate the affected limb and move on with it's life.

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Lemme just edit what you apparently forgot to emphasize.

GMNA has had the radiation and chemotherapy treatments and the disease in North America is getting worse not better. Perhaps now is the time GM Europe has to look at what is better for GM Europe as a whole, should it risk death with a diseased limb, or amputate the affected limb and move on with it's life.

That's closer to what you intended, right? It would fit your usual pattern...

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(Remember, GM is still an American company. Remember?)

No, GM's headquarters is in North America, at least for now. However GM is a global company, just ask Bob Lutz. :AH-HA_wink:

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Lemme just edit what you apparently forgot to emphasize.

That's closer to what you intended, right? It would fit your usual pattern...

No, not what I said at all, and don't pretend to think that you know me, because you don't.

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No, not what I said at all, and don't pretend to think that you know me, because you don't.

We all know you just fine...

You're 'old skool' GM management that will shoot a line of $h! to better YOUR position instead of the company as a whole.

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No suprise here, product, product, product and good marketing will save them. Nothing else well.

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No, not what I said at all, and don't pretend to think that you know me, because you don't.

So what exactly is your idea for a more streamlined, profitable GM that still has all it's brands (more or less) intact in NA? Would you suggest just pulling out of NA altogether (which would be really devastating, and insanely stupid IMO), or just have GM essentially be a European company that sells European Opels and Vauxhalls through the already existing GM network here in NA (like Saturn)?

BTW, I actually think GM, the entire global company, is on the right track by having Europe and Daewoo develop the small stuff and mid size sedans, NA do the trucks and Caddy, etc, etc...

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. I want to be psyched about GM cars, but all this Tomfoolery that is GM's management makes me want to defect over to a Ford as my replacement for the aging Jimmy that I'm driving. Sometimes I feel like I'm rooting for Jo Jo the Idiot Circus Boy. All because my crazy Dad worked for Buick in the 60s/70s and early 80s - go figure. Oh, and I don't want to see 100000 people lose their jobs in America. That too.

Edited by gmcbob
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GM is already leveraging its global resources pretty well, I think. It could (and will) be better, but even right now it's at the point where trying to spin off one section of GM would probhably kill that section and seriously wound the rest.

GMNA has had the radiation and chemotherapy treatments and the disease in North America is getting worse not better. Perhaps now is the time GM has to look at what is better for GM as a whole, should it risk death with a diseased limb, or amputate the affected limb and move on with it's life.

It's ironic that you say that. Up until a couple of years ago GME was a HUGE sinkhole for GM, and I'm sure there were more than a few that wouldn't have minded unloading GME back then. But now it's a bright spot for GM global. Props do go to CPF for turning the ship around so quickly for GME by creating a strategy that works for the European market. Rather than be cut out of GM global, GMNA needs a similar approach that must be adhered to, naysayers be damned and then fired. Don't misunderstand me and think I want the entire GME lineup over here. What I do want is a strategy for GMNA's brand structure that works for the individual brands, for GMNA, and for NA consumers.

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The big difference is that the European market has been 'mature' for some time and although the Japanese have made inroads, they are not taking over, so to speak. Odd that Japan is making such a push in North America (where they know we will do nothing about it), rather than in Europe.

Once GM has been 'right-sized' in North America, things will stabilize. Until then, expect more doom saying and sky is falling.

The cancer patient analogy is quaint, but one has to wonder whether the doctor in this case has the patient's long term health in mind, or whether he wants to keep the patient alive enough to get paid. :scratchchin:

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It is kind of funny that PCS, who works for GM, actually writes the way he does on this board. It's a little weird honestly.

Hopefully GMNA can pull out of this funk and right the ship. It would be really disappointing from an enthusiast's standpoint to see this company go down in flames, taking the new Camaro and some of the cool new products (like the CTS Coupe) along with it. I'd be pretty jaded about following the car industry after that I think.

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We all know you just fine...

You're 'old skool' GM management that will shoot a line of $h! to better YOUR position instead of the company as a whole.

Actually you know me least of all, all you know is a persona on a forum. :AH-HA_wink:

And no, I am not GM old skool as you put it. No one hated Roger Smith and Bob Stemple more than I did, when I joined GM in 1989 at the Arlington Assembly Plant in Texas.

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Bob here is what I am suggesting. Look at GM as if it were a patient that had bone cancer of the leg. The doctors will evaluate the condition of the patient, then after the test come back in, they will recommend a course of action. If it's not to bad they will treat it with radiation and chemotherapy. If that doesn't work and the cancer threatens the life of the patient, then drastic measures may need to be taken, such as amputation up to the knee or perhaps the whole leg might need to be removed to stop the spread of the disease.

GMNA has had the radiation and chemotherapy treatments and the disease in North America is getting worse not better. Perhaps now is the time GM has to look at what is better for GM as a whole, should it risk death with a diseased limb, or amputate the affected limb and move on with it's life.

And that is what a good global company does.....

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It is kind of funny that PCS, who works for GM, actually writes the way he does on this board. It's a little weird honestly.

Hopefully GMNA can pull out of this funk and right the ship. It would be really disappointing from an enthusiast's standpoint to see this company go down in flames, taking the new Camaro and some of the cool new products (like the CTS Coupe) along with it. I'd be pretty jaded about following the car industry after that I think.

The car market is changing quite a bit here in the US, and I kinda think that is where PCS sees it. GM has to do what pleases the American market, whether we like it or not.

While the new Camaro is nice, it is not going to a damn thing in the market if gas goes sky high...

GM has to build for the masses first, all round the world....I think people fail to realize that. It's not just about us anymore.

And if GM has to build more boring (to us) gas sippers to pay the bills, so be it. These cars pay the bills to give us cars like the Camaro and CTS.

There is going to be a major change in the car market, and I think people think things are just going to stay the same.

I'll be the first to say that they will not.......

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Lemme just edit what you apparently forgot to emphasize.

That's closer to what you intended, right? It would fit your usual pattern...

Well ,that's a classy post.... :rolleyes:

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So what exactly is your idea for a more streamlined, profitable GM that still has all it's brands (more or less) intact in NA? Would you suggest just pulling out of NA altogether (which would be really devastating, and insanely stupid IMO), or just have GM essentially be a European company that sells European Opels and Vauxhalls through the already existing GM network here in NA (like Saturn)?

BTW, I actually think GM, the entire global company, is on the right track by having Europe and Daewoo develop the small stuff and mid size sedans, NA do the trucks and Caddy, etc, etc...

It'll be interesting to see what happens over the next few years. I want to be psyched about GM cars, but all this Tomfoolery that is GM's management makes me want to defect over to a Ford as my replacement for the aging Jimmy that I'm driving. Sometimes I feel like I'm rooting for Jo Jo the Idiot Circus Boy. All because my crazy Dad worked for Buick in the 60s/70s and early 80s - go figure. Oh, and I don't want to see 100000 people lose their jobs in America. That too.

If I had the power to save GMNA from itself, this is what I would do.

1. Make Chevrolet the value leader brand in price and function. Give them small cars (GMDAT) (Delta II), midsize cars (ep II), one large car, all FWD and Chevy Trucks, I also would give them and entry level CUV (Theta). They will retain the Camaro, no matter what platform it rides on. All platforms able to run off more than one type of Fuel, which I do think is a Federal law by 2010.

2. Make Pontiac the Holden Special Vehicles (HSV) of North America. Allow Pontiac to take any platform within GMNA (including Alpha) and infuse it with Pontiac DNA with RWD being it's focus, however every now and then allow Pontiac to take a FWD platform and do the same thing. I would also give the Corvette to Pontiac, since outside of North America it is not sold at Chevy, it is a brand unto itself.

3. Kill the Saturn brand name and change it to Opel/Saab, sell GM's European brands in North America through this outlet. Using GME's technology and Green initiatives.

4. As for Buick, they would get a small FWD (Delta II) car and a new Kappa(RWD) in 2012, EP II midsize, a large RWD sedan and of course the Enclave (Lambda). All Buicks will be designed by GM Chinese engineers since Buick's largest market is/will be China, however the platforms will be the same in China and North America, there will be no differences between a Chinese or American Buick, no matter where they are assembled. GMC would also be sold in the same Buick outlets in North America.

5. Cadillac would simply be GM's world Luxury brand, with all platforms being RWD and sold wherever in the world, the market will support it.

6. I would also have GM acquire a Motorcycle division or build it from the ground up, with fuel prices going up this would be an ideal addition to GM now, Hmmm, what name to use Oldsmobile or perhaps just GM Cycles. These stores would be stand alone stores, much like Honda and BMW motorcycles are.

7. I would jettison Hummer and perhaps make an offer to Chrysler for Jeep to fill that void. Jeep has a better environmental cache than Hummer does.

Well there are my ideas, I guess you are all glad I'm not the CEO now! :smilewide:

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S
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