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Oracle of Delphi

Report: GM mulls job cuts, sale of brands

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July 7, 2008 07:15 CET

UPDATED: 0/07/08 11:33 CET

LONDON (Thomson Financial) -- General Motors could shed thousands of white-collar jobs and sell or cease producing certain brands as part of a strategy reevaluation, said the Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with the matter.

The job cuts are expected to be approved at a meeting of the GM board in early August. The management may also suggest options for raising additional cash to help GM make it through the downturn, and may discuss cutting certain brands, the sources said.

A company spokesman declined to comment on either the job or brand cuts, said the report.

GM sells under eight different brands, but most, including Buick, Saturn and Saab, struggle to attract buyers. The company has already decided to put its Hummer division up for sale and prospective buyers are thought to include Mahindra & Mahindra.

On the job cuts, GM employs 76,000 white-collar workers globally, with the bulk of the force based in North America, said the report.

In the past few years, as GM has run up massive losses, some board members and some executives have on occasion raised questions about its plethora of brands, only to be rebuffed by CEO Rick Wagoner, the paper said.

The company, hit by rising oil and raw material prices, the credit crunch and the housing downturn, will need to raise as much as $15 billion (9.6 billion euros) in cash to shore up liquidity and bankruptcy is "not impossible" if the U.S. auto market continues to slump, Merrill Lynch said last week.

Link: http://www.autonews.com/article/20080707/A...238376/1128/ANE

I doubt it will be any of the brands mentioned other than HUMMER, conventional wisdom inside GM says it will be Pontiac and GMC, but August is only a month away, hopefully we'll all know by then.

Edited by Pontiac Custom-S

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In the past few years, as GM has run up massive losses, some board members and some executives have on occasion raised questions about its plethora of brands, only to be rebuffed by Chief Executive Rick Wagoner, the paper said, citing people familiar with the matter.

Looks like it's about to hit the fan at GM...

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Many companys have gone through this as they just did not evolve enough over time.

The good news is GM will remain with us and be much stronger. The bad news is some history and tradition will be gone.

GMC needs to be cut. Pontiac has little to offer and will take a lot of money to repair. Buick is left for the Chinese. Saab is best sold off with Hummer.

A Chevy Cadillac and Satun may be all we are left with and while it is sad these cars will get the money and attention to bring GM to where it needs to be.

You can raise 12 ok on you single pay check but you can better afford to provide for 3.

I have seen Goodyear sell off their oil pipe line, Aerospace, Belt and hose, Chemical and other divisions. This was a sad day but if it was not done Goodyear would have been gone altogher. Today Goodyear is back to it's core and making money.

We can all cry point fingers and complain but the time has come to play ball and the name of the game is to make money. GM will but there are going to have to be some painful changes. Better to have three stong NA divisions vs 5-6 weak ones that die together.

I have a garage of Pontiac and GMC's so don't think I hate to see this. But it is time to think with our brains not our hearts. Heritage does not pay the bills anymore in this what have you done for me latley scociety.

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Well, if 2009 will be GMCs last year of production, I will ask GMAC to allow me to get out of my lease early without penalty, and regardless of gas prices, get the GMC Sierra I've always wanted. I will hate to see it go, and have no option but to sit on the sidelines (like my fellow Oldsmobile friends) and watch GM destroy my favorite division. Like FOG mentioned in another thread, GM is in panic mode due to the current economical situation and they're making rash decisions to "save" money. I guess the fact that being the #2 volume seller for GM doesn't matter once your market shrinks as other factors come into play <_<

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Saab is doing nothing for GM, and to have both Chevy and GMC trucks is kinda rediculas. I can see both of them going away. Hummer is pretty much worthless (dollar wise) with today's gas. Might as well just keep Hummer and focus on them making the high price hybrid trucks that nobody is looking at on the Chevy lots (tahoe hybrid). Hummer is a premium truck brand and would make sense to put the high price "premium" hybrid drive in those units.

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Many companys have gone through this as they just did not evolve enough over time.

The good news is GM will remain with us and be much stronger. The bad news is some history and tradition will be gone.

GMC needs to be cut. Pontiac has little to offer and will take a lot of money to repair. Buick is left for the Chinese. Saab is best sold off with Hummer.

A Chevy Cadillac and Satun may be all we are left with and while it is sad these cars will get the money and attention to bring GM to where it needs to be.

You can raise 12 ok on you single pay check but you can better afford to provide for 3.

I have seen Goodyear sell off their oil pipe line, Aerospace, Belt and hose, Chemical and other divisions. This was a sad day but if it was not done Goodyear would have been gone altogher. Today Goodyear is back to it's core and making money.

We can all cry point fingers and complain but the time has come to play ball and the name of the game is to make money. GM will but there are going to have to be some painful changes. Better to have three stong NA divisions vs 5-6 weak ones that die together.

I have a garage of Pontiac and GMC's so don't think I hate to see this. But it is time to think with our brains not our hearts. Heritage does not pay the bills anymore in this what have you done for me latley scociety.

Good post. GM NEEDS MONEY. That's the only reason they exist. Anything they do to return to profitability must be done as quickly as possible.

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Not sure how much of this I would take heed to. It IS the WSJ afterall. Same paper who said the Volt will get 16mpg if lucky.... :rolleyes:

Edited by deftonesfan867

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Here's a thought: Invest real money into class leading products, advertsiements for them, and don't take 10 years to develope them...rather than trying to save a buck and continue down the road with mostly mediocre to average product.

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Many companys have gone through this as they just did not evolve enough over time.

The good news is GM will remain with us and be much stronger. The bad news is some history and tradition will be gone.

GMC needs to be cut. Pontiac has little to offer and will take a lot of money to repair. Buick is left for the Chinese. Saab is best sold off with Hummer.

A Chevy Cadillac and Satun may be all we are left with and while it is sad these cars will get the money and attention to bring GM to where it needs to be.

You can raise 12 ok on you single pay check but you can better afford to provide for 3.

I have seen Goodyear sell off their oil pipe line, Aerospace, Belt and hose, Chemical and other divisions. This was a sad day but if it was not done Goodyear would have been gone altogher. Today Goodyear is back to it's core and making money.

We can all cry point fingers and complain but the time has come to play ball and the name of the game is to make money. GM will but there are going to have to be some painful changes. Better to have three stong NA divisions vs 5-6 weak ones that die together.

I have a garage of Pontiac and GMC's so don't think I hate to see this. But it is time to think with our brains not our hearts. Heritage does not pay the bills anymore in this what have you done for me latley scociety.

QFT

GM is in a lot worse shape then people realize....and wall street has them by the balls...So, what do you think they are going to do?

Things are set in motion that will cause people to leave this board in digust......

Then again, the car we know will change so much....

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i'm guessing gm might be regretting selling GMAC....

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i'm guessing gm might be regretting selling GMAC....

With the mortgage meltdown, selling off 51% of GMAC looks like the BEST thing GM has done in the past couple years. Cerebrus must be the one doing the regretting here.

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I don't see a future for HUMMER, simply because the name itself is associated with 'gas-guzzling' and excess. I'm sure GM could have remedied that with a product like the H4, or more efficient engines, but instead, they just had to go and make an H3 with a useless box.

Whatever brand goes, here's hoping SAAB goes away with it.

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a couple of points come to my mind

- GM needs a great PR dept, especially in these times, they need creative formulated messages that are focused at improving all the chatter. it's probably too late coming to avoid this negative discussion, and there probably isn't a cogent message that would stem all the negative talk, giving GM's own admission all options were under consideration, but I think they could really still benefit from a little positive talk. [ to the many who hate the media, GM's own mouthpiece fails to deflect any attention]

- the strategy going forward is crucial. I'm not saying this from a brand-biased perspective, but there really has to be clear thinking and not panic mode mindset on what makes to stick with going down the line, what markets have been proven to be there already, the most critical points for each brnad. for example, GMC has proven a great ability to attract luxury truck buyers, a la Denali, does that mean downsizing and focusing only on that market would be a bad thing? pontiac has proven they can attract buyers in the mainstream market. buick doens't have much of a market presence anymore. saab is a niche force, but especially consistent over the years in design theme so they are immediately recognizable as well as being well regarded as a premium product. saturn has only proven able to attract in volume numbers, at volume prices, in small cars and SUVs; they have a limited history and incosistent product message, which can both be bad things when you're trying to set up a brand and legacy, in the face of all the competing brands with market presence today. hummer is somewhat of an overlap division given GMC should be there already, but have proven adept at crafting a unique styling presence.

in the face of mounting pressures, decisions i guess will have to made, whatever needs to happen to keep GM alive. but they consider their options carefully. I don't mean to make my stance into an anti-Saturn one, but it seems foolish to make an assumption like if we build the product, under an unknown brand, they will come, and then to say if we just distribute the brand as much as the others, it will be able to attract more people. Saturn is cheap because it's just Opel, but this should not be the strongest rationalization for keeping it around.

my bottom line about this situation. it's much easier to move forward with an established entity and just remake it then it is to establish an identity. check all the brands in the past ten years. and look how long it's taken someone like hyundai and kia to move forward, at that with a complete budget-priced model. establishing a brand here in a time when there are too many brands, too many competing for floor space, mental share, too many branding concepts to deal with already seems foolish to me. go with the one that's already there.

Edited by turbo200

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>>"...I have seen Goodyear sell off their oil pipe line, Aerospace, Belt and hose, Chemical and other divisions. This was a sad day but if it was not done Goodyear would have been gone altogher. Today Goodyear is back to it's core and making money."<<

Just pointing out RE your example: Pontiac & GMC, etc ARE GM's core. GM has already 'reverse-diversified' (Hughes, EDS, Euclid, Terex, ElectroMotive, GMAC, etc). If Goodyear did what GM is supposedly considering, it would be discontinuing/ selling off 60% of it's lines of tires.

Edited by balthazar

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GM is denying any brand is under review except for Hummer.

At automotivenews.com, the headline reads "GM denies any more brands under review," but the text of the story states, "A General Motors spokesman today denied the automaker is reviewing any more brands besides Hummer for possible sale."

I added the bold, suspecting it means they won't be selling GMC and Pontiac, but will instead just close them.

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Pure foolishness to kill GMC or Pontiac - Buick, Saturn,Saab and Hummer are the marginal sellers in our market.

So how can it make any sense whatsoever to consider GMC or Pontiac for elimination?

Just stupid to even entertain such a "plan". :rolleyes:

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So how can it make any sense whatsoever to consider GMC or Pontiac for elimination?

They can roll *most* of Pontiac and GMC's customers over to Chevy. I'm sure 85% of those Grand Am buyers (aka Pontiac buyers) would have bought GM regardless.

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They can roll *most* of Pontiac and GMC's customers over to Chevy. I'm sure 85% of those Grand Am buyers (aka Pontiac buyers) would have bought GM regardless.

That's garbage, Satty.

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They can roll *most* of Pontiac and GMC's customers over to Chevy. I'm sure 85% of those Grand Am buyers (aka Pontiac buyers) would have bought GM regardless.

on the pontiac front, these are cars that have worn distinct fascias over the years. yes, the differentiation of content wasn't strong, yes the product message wasn't consistent, but it's still there to the layman that these cars wore wrappers that were distinctive and aggressive. i don't think this buyer is the same as the everyday casual now and used to be just plain generic and sometimes ugly Chevy guy. i don't disagree with the premise that many will shift over to Chevy; but I also think many would go for a sporty car from some other place. rather than the casual chevy in the mold of upcoming malibu [especially].

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That's garbage, Satty.

No, the badge engineered crap that sold solely on incentives over the last 20 years that put Pontiac in this situation was garbage.

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No, the badge engineered crap that sold solely on incentives over the last 20 years that put Pontiac in this situation was garbage.

Now that is somewhat true.

But Grand Ams are not in any way relevent anymore, and the lesson of Oldsmobile is.

Close Pontiac, and GM will suffer for it: guaranteed.

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The G6 is still the best selling Pontiac, by far.

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The G6 is still the best selling Pontiac, by far.

Yes it is, and that makes my case. The Aura can't touch it and it reaches a demographic that Malibu does not.

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You're ok with the fact that Pontiac is sustaining on a Malibu clone, and will continue to do so in the future?

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You're ok with the fact that Pontiac is sustaining on a Malibu clone, and will continue to do so in the future?

Well, if it allows Pontiac to also offer something I would buy, then yes. But the G6 is hardly a clone, it came first, looks totally different, and offers more bodystyles. I don't care for the car myself, but it works well for Pontiac right now.

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You're ok with the fact that Pontiac is sustaining on a Malibu clone, and will continue to do so in the future?

no. and to better manage thier brands in the future, GM will have to look to actual content differentiation to establish a strong image and perception amongst buyers. but if they suddenly give up now, they may as well do so with every brand, cause everyone of thier brands has had a muddied image and is no where near as cemented as brands like Acura, Nissan, Honda, etc

similarly, on incentives, if we were to close every brand from GM that has had vehicles relying solely on incentives we'd be left with no brand. maybe the CTS and vette, off the top of my head, are the only vehicles that haven't relied heavily on incentives in the past decade.

EDIT: reg and a couple others were arguing in favor of GM's badge engineering recently. that right there is the biggest culprit, like was said above, of GM's recent downfall. not leveraging thier design power over the years, not maintaining product and design consistency over the years, never allowing the brands to stand for something strong other than similar cars with sub-Japanese levels of efficiency, design quality, durability has gotten them to where they are today.

Edited by turbo200

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The couple/vert can be rolled over to either Chevy or Saturn. Hell, a Eurosport package a la the 1985 Celebrity could bridge the appearance gap between the Malibu and G6. The G6, and therefore Pontiac, is redundancy for the sake of redundancy. The Firebird, Solstice, GTO and G8 didn't bring anything to the bottom line, which is, in the end, what matters.

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no. and to better manage thier brands in the future, GM will have to look to actual content differentiation to establish a strong image and perception amongst buyers. but if they suddenly give up now, they may as well do so with every brand, cause everyone of thier brands has had a muddied image and is no where near as cemented as brands like Acura, Nissan, Honda, etc

similarly, on incentives, if we were to close every brand from GM that has had vehicles relying solely on incentives we'd be left with no brand. maybe the CTS and vette, off the top of my head, are the only vehicles that haven't relied heavily on incentives in the past decade.

True.

I'd love to eventually see an Alpha replace the G6, but right now survival is the name of the game - and the G6 is helping.

I see the notion of Killing Pontiac as anti-survival for GM.

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The couple/vert can be rolled over to either Chevy or Saturn. Hell, a Eurosport package a la the 1985 Celebrity could bridge the appearance gap between the Malibu and G6. The G6, and therefore Pontiac, is redundancy for the sake of redundancy. The Firebird, Solstice, GTO and G8 didn't bring anything to the bottom line, which is, in the end, what matters.

But why?

Saturn has been worse than useless to the bottom line for its entire existence.

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The couple/vert can be rolled over to either Chevy or Saturn. Hell, a Eurosport package a la the 1985 Celebrity could bridge the appearance gap between the Malibu and G6. The G6, and therefore Pontiac, is redundancy for the sake of redundancy. The Firebird, Solstice, GTO and G8 didn't bring anything to the bottom line, which is, in the end, what matters.

firebird, solstice, et al helped bring credebility to a performance statement missing from their mass market product. logic shows the specialty cars are not where the volume is. yes, the volume is in the mass market cars like the G6 and the G5. with pontiac there was never follow through, the engineering and quality and actual performance attributes skipped the mass market cars and stayed with the halo 'promise' cars. the promise of good performance and good image was there, but never backed up through the most important product. i'm simply saying the brand hasn't been given the chance with high quality mainstream offerings. they are nothing more than a chevy rebadge, but they are not redundancy. they are distinctive, Saturn and Chevy are conservative, tepid relative to Pontiac. Pontiac is an extreme. that could be kept alive, and I would think it more necessary than a nondescript brand, albeit cheaply funded via Opel, Saturn brand

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As goes Pontiac, so goes GM? Not exactly. As goes Chevy, so goes GM, at least in the U.S. Volume is the name of the game. Toyota makes a ton of money in the state with 2 1/3 brands, Honda does it with 2. They do it by focusing on core models and maximizing profitability. The best way for GM to compete is pare itself down to Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. Chevy can do the mainstream thing, Buick can do the Lexus/ low-endMercedes/Audi thing while Cadillac can do the BMW/Infiniti/high-end Mercedes thing. All the superfluous stuff in between (Pontiac, GMC, and yes, Saturn) just takes resources away.

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firebird, solstice, et al helped bring credebility to a performance statement missing from their mass market product. logic shows the specialty cars are not where the volume is. yes, the volume is in the mass market cars like the G6 and the G5. with pontiac there was never follow through, the engineering and quality and actual performance attributes skipped the mass market cars and stayed with the halo 'promise' cars. the promise of good performance and good image was there, but never backed up through the most important product. i'm simply saying the brand hasn't been given the chance with high quality mainstream offerings. they are nothing more than a chevy rebadge, but they are not redundancy. they are distinctive, Saturn and Chevy are conservative, tepid relative to Pontiac. Pontiac is an extreme. that could be kept alive, and I would think it more necessary than a nondescript brand, albeit cheaply funded via Opel, Saturn brand

Exactly.

Especially since the "Sopals" aren't exactly flying off the lots.

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As goes Pontiac, so goes GM? Not exactly. As goes Chevy, so goes GM, at least in the U.S. Volume is the name of the game. Toyota makes a ton of money in the state with 2 1/3 brands, Honda does it with 2. They do it by focusing on core models and maximizing profitability. The best way for GM to compete is pare itself down to Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. Chevy can do the mainstream thing, Buick can do the Lexus/ low-endMercedes/Audi thing while Cadillac can do the BMW/Infiniti/high-end Mercedes thing. All the superfluous stuff in between (Pontiac, GMC, and yes, Saturn) just takes resources away.

This thinking is dead wrong and will kill GM in its entirety in short order.

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People probably said that about Olds 8 years ago. Gm is still around, and in a better, though still crappy, position.

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When you get right down to it a few things come to mind:

- GM can't afford to kill any brands right now even if they want to.

- Killing brands solves nothing

- Killing models that aren't performing is the way to go with very well-thought-out introductions coming when they make sense (without rebadges) and finally defining the brands in a real and obvious way.

... and maybe killing Saturn when they can afford to.

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As goes Pontiac, so goes GM? Not exactly. As goes Chevy, so goes GM, at least in the U.S. Volume is the name of the game. Toyota makes a ton of money in the state with 2 1/3 brands, Honda does it with 2. They do it by focusing on core models and maximizing profitability. The best way for GM to compete is pare itself down to Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. Chevy can do the mainstream thing, Buick can do the Lexus/ low-endMercedes/Audi thing while Cadillac can do the BMW/Infiniti/high-end Mercedes thing. All the superfluous stuff in between (Pontiac, GMC, and yes, Saturn) just takes resources away.

on this point I'm in agreement but view things differently. I agree we should focus in on core models. Who's to say the Pontiac sports sedan isn't a core model? What about the GMC luxury SUV? The one for higher end consumers who are not rolling in dough like the $60-80k Escalade buyers are, or prefer to be seen in something less visually pronounced. we're in a depressed economy so a lot more people have become the practical car buyer. if we can hopefully pull out of this, the reverse will happen and people will feel comfortable to shop in more 'excess' terms, like getting a sporty sedan over a conservative fuel miser.

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People probably said that about Olds 8 years ago. Gm is still around, and in a better, though still crappy, position.

Not really better, and those customers were lost.

Also, they have yet to actually do what they have said as far as brand definition and consolidation goes.

They always change direction before they complete step #1

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on this point I'm in agreement but view things differently. I agree we should focus in on core models. Who's to say the Pontiac sports sedan isn't a core model? What about the GMC luxury SUV? The one for higher end consumers who are not rolling in dough like the $60-80k Escalade buyers are, or prefer to be seen in something less visually pronounced. we're in a depressed economy so a lot more people have become the practical car buyer. if we can hopefully pull out of this, the reverse will happen and people will feel comfortable to shop in more 'excess' terms, like getting a sporty sedan over a conservative fuel miser.

Which is exactly why GM needs to keep it's toes in all segments with at least one model.

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Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

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Yes it is, and that makes my case. The Aura can't touch it and it reaches a demographic that Malibu does not.

I wonder what the fleet percentage is for the G6, though...Avis and Alamo seem to love 'em..

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Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

It's all over if that happens.

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Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

i guess the immediate thing that pops in my head is how are you going to explain to dealers they're going to be moving less volume, with less models and less brands....and the same amount of dealers. there's bound to be some closures here, considering what you lay out....saturn and saab account for a fraction of GMC and Pontiac volume. from a volume perspective it doesn't make a whole heckuva lotta sense to follow the plan you're proposing....and mostly it seems you want to keep two brands alive that are sold worldwide, one with less volume than GMC or Pontiac in America [saab only sells 200k worldwide], and another that is simply a name for the mainstream cookie cutter brand in Europe.

though i recognize the importance going down the line of product that can be sold internationally, i think we must also serve the interests when profit is in the equation. we're still a big market here, and that needs to be stated and supported. GM needs to figure out how to build vehicles profitably and once again make money in the States, where there still is a ginourmous market.

the only solid reason you're giving in favor of Saturn and Saab are thier international status, but that shouldn't matter for a number of reasons. chevy sells way more than opel does in just one country versus all over Europe. what is it, like 3 million units to 1 million? we're still talking about a saab division that is outsold in the US and all over the world by every other brand GM has. our market and the intrinsics here have to take precedence.

Edited by turbo200

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I wonder what the fleet percentage is for the G6, though...Avis and Alamo seem to love 'em..

Ohhh...new idea, keep Pontiac as a dedicated fleet brand. They can make money off outdated cars (like the G6) and can justify a handful of sportier clones (Firebird, Solstice) to be like the Shelby GT-H. Those cars will end up in the hands of enthusiasts, GM makes max profit out of existing components, everybody wins.

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i guess the immediate thing that pops in my head is how are you going to explain to dealers they're going to be moving less volume, with less models and less brands....and the same amount of dealers. there's bound to be some closures here, considering what you lay out....saturn and saab account for a fraction of GMC and Pontiac volume. from a volume perspective it doesn't make a whole heckuva lotta sense to follow the plan you're proposing....and mostly it seems you want to keep two brands alive that are sold worldwide, one with less volume than GMC or Pontiac in America [saab only sells 200k worldwide], and another that is simply a name for the mainstream cookie cutter brand in Europe.

though i recognize the importance going down the line of product that can be sold internationally, i think we must also serve the interests when profit is in the equation. we're still a big market here, and that needs to be stated and supported. GM needs to figure out how to build vehicles profitably and once again make money in the States, where there still is a ginourmous market.

the only solid reason you're giving in favor of Saturn and Saab are thier international status, but that shouldn't matter for a number of reasons. chevy sells way more than opel does in just one country versus all over Europe. what is it, like 3 million units to 1 million? we're still talking about a saab division that is outsold in the US and all over the world by every other brand GM has. our market and the intrinsics here have to take precedence.

This reality is so obvious that it really calls into question the intelligence of those promoting the suicidal plan PCS has outlined.

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i guess the immediate thing that pops in my head is how are you going to explain to dealers they're going to be moving less volume, with less models and less brands....and the same amount of dealers. there's bound to be some closures here, considering what you lay out....saturn and saab account for a fraction of GMC and Pontiac volume. from a volume perspective it doesn't make a whole heckuva lotta sense to follow the plan you're proposing....and mostly it seems you want to keep two brands alive that are sold worldwide, one with less volume than GMC or Pontiac in America [saab only sells 200k worldwide], and another that is simply a name for the mainstream cookie cutter brand in Europe.

though i recognize the importance going down the line of product that can be sold internationally, i think we must also serve the interests when profit is in the equation. we're still a big market here, and that needs to be stated and supported. GM needs to figure out how to build vehicles profitably and once again make money in the States, where there still is a ginourmous market.

I think the Buick dealerships will be grateful that they are still in operation with Saab and Saturn as their new partners. As for some closures, well I think the weaker dealerships should go away anyway. In nature only the strong survive. Chevy and Cadillac are world brands and inside GM, they are untouchable, they are the crown jewels and will never be touched. Saab and Saturn, cough, cough, Opel are the technological darlings of GM, GM is not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but lets see what the GM Board decides to do next month, shall we? :scratchchin:

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I think the Buick dealerships will be grateful that they are still in operation with Saab and Saturn as their new partners. As for some closures, well I think the weaker dealerships should go away anyway. In nature only the strong survive. Chevy and Cadillac are world brands and inside GM, they are untouchable, they are the crown jewels and will never be touched. Saab and Saturn, cough, cough, Opel are the technological darlings of GM, GM is not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater, but lets see what the GM Board decides to do next month, shall we? :scratchchin:

Pure foolishness.

Saab is useless and Saturn is a perennial failure.

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>>"...I have seen Goodyear sell off their oil pipe line, Aerospace, Belt and hose, Chemical and other divisions. This was a sad day but if it was not done Goodyear would have been gone altogher. Today Goodyear is back to it's core and making money."<<

Just pointing out RE your example: Pontiac & GMC, etc ARE GM's core. GM has already 'reverse-diversified' (Hughes, EDS, Euclid, Terex, ElectroMotive, GMAC, etc). If Goodyear did what GM is supposedly considering, it would be discontinuing/ selling off 60% of it's lines of tires.

So belts and hoses or industrial belting to fan belting and as well other industrial rubber chemicals are not also rubber related? Aerospace also intails many things like Tire combo's for aircrafts and other rubber related Aerospace applications. Hell they even sold the rights to the blimp design. Selling the right to the design of the blimp is like Chevy selling the Vette. Accept for ther pipe lline it was all rubber realated as noted the companys name is Goodyear Tire and Rubber. Hell they even printed it on their pencils. Almost everything they old of was rubber related.

Goodyear did not sell off their tire lines but by selling off the non tire lines of Rubber that were not making as much money they were able to invest in less but better new products.

GM sold of things that were not Auto related. But my point is GM needs to get to the basic divisions that are profitable and not over laps or un profitable area. Trucks became the core and times today dictate cars from like the Beat up to the Malibu the need to become the new core.

It it rubber products or Cars to many divisions can ands will hurt a company. Right now to save the money and the company it all needs reined in. It has been said GM has had too many divisions and many have been in denial. To day it is hard to say that is not correct. It is time to take money from 5-6 divisions and make 3 strong brands and make a profit.

Get the facts on Goodyears turn around as it is not complete by any means but it is on the right path. Just a few years ago they were not give much of a chance of making it at all. Keagan the CEO and earned every dollar even though he has to make some unpopular choices.

No matter how good a CTSV is or a Malibu if the rest of the company kills the profits the whole body dies. It is time to remove the tumors or die.

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No matter how good a CTSV is or a Malibu if the rest of the company kills the profits the whole body dies. It is time to remove the tumors or die.

Yeah, like Saab, Saturn, and Hummer.

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But why?

Saturn has been worse than useless to the bottom line for its entire existence.

Yup.... Stab it to death I hate it. I'd even be okay if it just got merged into Opel instead of this current money sucking marionette routine.

Pure foolishness.

Saab is useless and Saturn is a perennial failure.

Saab may be useless in NA but their sales are strong in Europe and Russia in particular (an emerging market). Their R&D Dpt. is indispensable within General Motors as well. I surmise the reason that Saabs are still sold in NA is because it would be more costly to close and pay off their fairly independent dealer network (Unlike Canada where they A) Do reasonably well and B) are grouped with Saturn) than any money they would save in the short-to-midterm financial books.

Long Story Short, GM is a Bloated Fat Man in desperate need of liposuction. That Means we sell Hummer to some enterprising Indian company. It also means that redundancies need to be cracked down upon. It would be easier to get rid of GMC and Hummer than any others. There's lots of dealers in the US and even more in Canada with Pontiac as an Anchor chain. This is somewheres along the lines of how many Indie Olds dealers there were in the States in 1999 (It was C-O-C in Canada). Dealers in the USA might do okay if they had Saturn mixed with Buick but in Canada, where 1/2 of the dealers are BPG dealers, they would be DECIMATED. Put Buick with Saturn up here (Saturn sells worse up here) and give them that utterly pants-on-head retarded pricing policy and Buick's value goes away INSTANTLY.

And frankly, on Pontiac. Few Pontiacs have ever really appealed to me since the year 2000 (1996-1999 Bonne, Trans Sport and that's about it). I'd be sad to see the brand go, but I wouldn't feel even close to how I felt about Oldsmobile's demise. Olds had a glimmer of hope if Saturn was put down, Pontiac has withered on the vine. No new product in the pipeline. An EP-1 G6 that goes through 2013!!! Look, if all Pontiac is gonna get is cars like the Torrent, G5 and G3 may as well put it down.

Like I Said Before

1) Merge Saturn, Holden into Opel

2) Have some sort of combination of Chev-Buick-Caddy dealers or Chev-Opel and Buick-Cadillac separated. Maybe some Buick-Opel dealers and evaluate which paring seems to work best in different regions of the US in Canada

3) Sell Hummer, Recede Saab to Europe, Put Pontiac out of its Misery, GMC makes commercial trucks, Chevrolet makes consumer ones

4) Focus resources across these four divisions, develop globally applicable products.

5) For the love of god advertise

6) ???????

7) Profit

Alfred Sloan has been dead for quite some time, I don't like to see divisions go, but I love GM, AS A WHOLE. If we keep grasping at straws like gotta have performance, so Pontiac has to stay, GM WILL DIE. ALL OF IT. I'd rather amputate my foot than die of Gangrene, the same is true for General Motors. Pontiac's cheap thrills legacy can be easily personified by Chevrolet, the more refined performance models can be signified in an Alpha Buick and Sig-Zeta CTS. It's time to get serious.

Edited by vonVeezelsnider

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I think if Pontiac goes, I won't cry too much when the rest of GM dies soon afterward.

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I don't get Pontiac's role anymore. If they are going to keep it around, give it a sense of direction. Build a tossable RWD Pontiac that fits snugly in the 3-series/A4/IS space and gets decent fuel economy because its not 3600lbs+. That is the type of car young enthusiasts aspire to/wins a car company new fans and GM has yet to deliver. Instead we've had all their attempts at volume vehicles come off as red gauged cars that drive just like Chevrolets. Don't let cars like the last Grand Prix that are a laughing stock to non-GM fans get built.

Edited by frogger

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You claim to be a GM employee and yet see this coming??? What exactly do you do there besides mop the floors?

Seriously, as non-sensical as GMC and Pontiac are to me there's no way GM has the balls to tell their PBG dealers that they'll stop selling GMC and Pontiac and instead start selling Saturn and Saab which sell 70% fewer vehicles combined than Pontiac and GMC together. You'd have dealers going out of business left and right with lawsuits to match.

Plus, what's the benefit???? Saab has no cache and no profits with no outlook for either anytime soon. Saturn is not believable as an upscale alternative to Chevy, and it has lost what goodwill it had when the S-Series was discontinued and the company neutered. Has Saturn ever been profitable? It might make sense to encourage the 200 (?) Saturn dealers to combine with the PBG dealers in their area while GM adds Saturn to the PBG channel as a car that gets back to basic transportation roots (no more Sky, Outlook, Opels). The new Saturns could be fuel-efficient GMDAT vehicles. The PBG dealers desperately need something more than the Vibe and G5 coupe.

I see Saab on the chopping block soon. Maybe that's why GM decided not to give the Astra to Trollhattan, which will continue to build the glorified Vectra known as the 9-3 until GM can find a buyer for the factory and the brand name for a small sum ($200 mil?).

Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

Edited by buyacargetacheck

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This scenario that PCS outlines, it sounds like a plan to change General Motors into Generic Motors.

That approach will fail as we already have Toyota for that, and the world does not need two Toyotas.

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Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

Interesting. This weekend I did hit some GM lots and the G8 GT and Sierra were all that interested me. Still not a fan of the CTS or the Silverado, but GM doesn't seem to be in the business of catering to buyers like me. The VW GTI was probably the most interesting car I found besides the G8.

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You claim to be a GM employee and yet see this coming??? What exactly do you do there besides mop the floors?

Seriously, as non-sensical as GMC and Pontiac are to me there's no way GM has the balls to tell their PBG dealers that they'll stop selling GMC and Pontiac and instead start selling Saturn and Saab which sell 70% fewer vehicles combined than Pontiac and GMC together. You'd have dealers going out of business left and right with lawsuits to match.

Plus, what's the benefit???? Saab has no cache and no profits with no outlook for either anytime soon. Saturn is not believable as an upscale alternative to Chevy, and it has lost what goodwill it had when the S-Series was discontinued and the company neutered. Has Saturn ever been profitable? It might make sense to encourage the 200 (?) Saturn dealers to combine with the PBG dealers in their area while GM adds Saturn to the PBG channel as a car that gets back to basic transportation roots (no more Sky, Outlook, Opels). The new Saturns could be fuel-efficient GMDAT vehicles. The PBG dealers desperately need something more than the Vibe and G5 coupe.

I see Saab on the chopping block soon. Maybe that's why GM decided not to give the Astra to Trollhattan, which will continue to build the glorified Vectra known as the 9-3 until GM can find a buyer for the factory and the brand name for a small sum ($200 mil?).

Why should GM care about it's dealerships anymore? If they keeping worrying about them, then the might as well pull the trigger to their head right now.

It's about staying in business.GM could really use less dealerships anyways.....if half of them closed, that would be a good thing. It would match what they are selling anyways...

(I can see enzl and Carbiz beating me with a yardstick any time now..)

Though Saab needs to go...lux cars are going to be on the way out as gas prices go up.. (what moron is going to spend 40-60k on a car, then put 7 buck gas in it?)

I pity no brand right now....GM simply has to stay in business.

The past means NOTHING now. If it did, they might sell more cars...A few car nuts and some GM employees are not going to keep the front doors open....PCS knows that, I know that.

The writing was on the wall-no G6 refresh? Just a G5? A carolla wagon with a Pontiac nose? I don't think GM was planning on investing too much money here....

Then again, the same could be said of Buick and Saab.....

AND, there will be some models gone, a la you-know- who........

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Here's what I see happening brandwise, should not be nothing new to y'all, only been saying it for over a year now. Here is how I think the sales channels will align in North America

Chevrolet (Stand alone Value Worldwide Brand)

Buick/Saab/Saturn (Mid-Lux North American Brands) Sold in the same dealerships that use to house BPG, that way no dealerships close.

Cadillac (Stand alone Luxury Worldwide Brand)

So in simple terms you would have GOOD, BETTER, BEST!

Hummer will be sold off, Pontiac and GMC will be shown the Oldsmobile door. If things get really tight with money, I see the Saturn name going away in favor of Opel, the Holden name could go away and its factory in Australia converted to produce GMDAT vehicles including AVEO, BEAT, etc. That would give GM extra capacity to ship those cars to India and China. I also see a plant in North America converted to produce the same cars here.

I see nothing happening to GME in Europe, South America, or in Africa, as it makes money there, so GM won't screw with it.

But let's see what the GM Board decides next month, it should be very, very interesting. I told you, you would need lots of popcorn this year. :deathwatch:

Except Saab, I would have to agree with that....

And it is something GM could put together quickly.....

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I think if Pontiac goes, I won't cry too much when the rest of GM dies soon afterward.

If something doesn't happen...it's not going to matter much anyways..

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This scenario that PCS outlines, it sounds like a plan to change General Motors into Generic Motors.

That approach will fail as we already have Toyota for that, and the world does not need two Toyotas.

THe difference is that GM can bring a brand back if they are successful, Toyota cannot.

Just because it goes away doesn't mean that it won't come back.....

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THe difference is that GM can bring a brand back if they are successful, Toyota cannot.

Just because it goes away doesn't mean that it won't come back.....

:rotflmao:

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As goes Chevy, so goes GM, at least in the U.S. Volume is the name of the game.

People probably said that about Olds 8 years ago. Gm is still around, and in a better, though still crappy, position.

Aren't both volume & marketshare well down from the 2000 announcement of the discontinuation of Olds ?

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The simple fact is that GM doesn't know how to manage its brands anymore, and hasn't for 30 years or so. They have little in the way of focus or identity, and when the going gets tough, GM sells out (see Olds).

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Aren't both volume & marketshare well down from the 2000 announcement of the discontinuation of Olds ?

Yeah, but there is no direct5 correlation to Oldsmobile. All domestics are down.

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Don't expect GM to discontinue a brand again—it simply costs too much. Instead look for them to examine selling any brands, and the dealer network, of any division they decide not to commit funding to. Of course the easiest to dispose of are thus Saab, Hummer and Saturn.

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We all know Saab and Saturn are same because some geniuses are determined that they are t3h futur3, comeplete with vehciles that all share teh same architecture, and therefore compete with each other rather thean the competition. Just like old times!

But hey, they've been a monumental sales success so far.....

:unsure:

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At automotivenews.com, the headline reads "GM denies any more brands under review," but the text of the story states, "A General Motors spokesman today denied the automaker is reviewing any more brands besides Hummer for possible sale."

I added the bold, suspecting it means they won't be selling GMC and Pontiac, but will instead just close them.

If they kill of Pontiac and GMC what happens to Buick?

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It's entirely possible that Saturn and Saab will join Buick, together, as a sales channel. Please search for comments elsewhere on this site by Pontiac Custom-S.

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It's entirely moronic that Saturn and Saab will join Buick, together, as a sales channel. Please search for comments elsewhere on this site by Pontiac Custom-S.

Fixed.

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Saab-Saturn-Buick dealerships? I think I just heard a pin drop across the room

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Now that's not nice, you need every friend you have at GM these days. :AH-HA_wink:

I have some left?

Seriously, that plan is moronic.

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I have some left?

Seriously, that plan is moronic.

Well friend may have been to strong a word, how about we change it to acquaintance then. :AH-HA_wink:

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Well friend may have been to strong a word, how about we change it to acquaintance then. :AH-HA_wink:

I'm guessing that all my friends at GM are being usurped as we speak. :nono:

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Hummer models like the Hx Concept can be rolled into GMC as a retro GMC Jimmy that competes directly with the Jeep Wrangler and Toyota FJ Cruiser. With the Yukon already being sold, the H2 componentry can be added to it to offer a Yukon All-Terrain model for the off-road vehicle market (the Tahoe Z71 would go away). The H3T pickup can become the Canyon, as it is both an improvement and a better vehicle than the Canyon could ever hope to be (and being a true off-road pickup, "Canyon" is the perfect name). The H3 SUV can become the new Envoy All-Terrain, and could come with a part-time 4WD system instead of the full-time 4WD system.

Effectively, GMC would go after the niche off-road truck market allowing it to survive while not selling rebadged versions of Chevrolet Trucks (the Sierra would continue on, especially with the All-Terrain model). This way GMC & Hummer merge to become GM's "Jeep"/off-road division, while Chevrolet continues to offer it's core trucks, especially to those not seeking off-road based versions. This way Pontiac-Buick dealers have trucks to sell still that you can't just buy over at Chevrolet, and in the process Chevrolet can have the commercial end too (Topkick gives way to the Kodiak, Savana concedes to the Express, and SL work-based truck versions of the Sierra and Canyon are no longer offered).

As for those of you dismissing the G6, realize that my wife looked at and sat in the Malibu, but choose the G6 sedan over it hands down and does not regret not getting what she calls an "older person's" car <Malibu> :AH-HA_wink: :lol: Those of you saying that Pontiac owners will go to Chevrolet need to look at how many Oldsmobile owners went to Buick :blink:

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:rotflmao:

I'm glad you find that funny....because I don't. :(

Everything comes back...heck, the 80s are back now....

Would rather see this mess continue further, or watch it disappear for a few years (like the Camaro) and come back as a better brand?

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I'm glad you find that funny....because I don't. :(

Everything comes back...heck, the 80s are back now....

Would rather see this mess continue further, or watch it disappear for a few years (like the Camaro) and come back as a better brand?

Any brand GM kills will be gone forever.

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Is Saab Auto even profitable? With 9-3 production staying in Trollhattan spinning Saab off would be easier than ever. Two companies interested in the US market but without a distribution network, Fiat and Peugeot, seem like a good fit. Even if GM could only get $250M for Saab it's still money that could be used to shore up the balance sheet while at the same time reducing risk (no more op losses and no more down-the-drain capital investments in high-wage Swedish factories).

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Any brand GM kills will be gone forever.

If so, then so be it...

Life moves on....

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Is Saab Auto even profitable? With 9-3 production staying in Trollhattan spinning Saab off would be easier than ever. Two companies interested in the US market but without a distribution network, Fiat and Peugeot, seem like a good fit. Even if GM could only get $250M for Saab it's still money that could be used to shore up the balance sheet while at the same time reducing risk (no more op losses and no more down-the-drain capital investments in high-wage Swedish factories).

Saab can't do poop here, he they keep it , it would be more for Europe and China.....

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Read www.autoextremist.com today. His rant is spot on, for the most part. GM cannot 'kill' any more brands. It is too expensive, but they can starve them. Although it may sound like a bad corporate move (and in a lot of respects it is), it would be cheaper than going through the legal motions of killing off one of the brands.

There have been many legal cases in both our countries where franchisees have sued (unsuccessfully) the franchisor over perceived lack of leadership, product, etc. In the dire shape GM is currently in, it would be difficult for a dealer (or dealers) to accuse GM of DELIBERATELY starving one or more brands, but it could be done slowly. GM can easily argue it doesn't have the development money for the slower selling brands - and that would probably hold up in court.

I think we may have already seen the start of it with the intro of the Aura, then Malibu, as one example. Everyone agrees the Malibu has gotten far more attention, both from the press and advertising.

Besides, once P-B-GMC is fully integrated, their total number of models can be cut back and if the new product that comes out is decent enough, those surviving P-B-GMC dealers may thrive quite well.

As Peter says, "but unless you’re connected to a Cadillac or Chevrolet franchise, the future is bleak."

:AH-HA_wink:

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Saab lost $428 million in 2006.

I have said for years, too many brands, too many models and too many big SUVs. History and Nostalgia can't be used as factors when determining which brands to keep. They need Chevy and Cadillac, and 2 brands to fill the gap with semi-luxury and sporty cars and niche products. Trying to keep 8 brands going another 5-10 years will lead to bankruptcy. The stock is at a 55 year low, market share has gone from 40% to 20% in the past 20 years, the strategy has to change and change radically.

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Even I don't believe history & nostolgia are major factors in a decision to keep brands. The history behind them is no longer tangible (outside of car shows). The reasons -say- Pontiac evokes enthusiasm were established in the '50-70s for the most part... and those cars & elements are all gone except for the split grille.

But.... well defined and well executed, each brand absolutely can offer a solid business case for continuance. Undoubtedly this will require inspired vision, and much smaller production, but variety is one of the strong suits to GM (look at their truck lines- something toyot and nissan never were able to learn). Who would've thought there was a spot in the segment for maserati, but look at that brand go, parts-bin dipping and all.

Look at mercedes, bmw, infiniti, lexus, etc- they all have very similar cars within a segment: similar size, power, amenities, proportions, functionality, performance, etc, with different grilles & sheetmetal. Are they fundamentally unique from each other? Not really. But they survive and even prosper, even tho they rub shoulders in a rapidly shrinking market. Perception here is huge, likely as important as product (look at land rover!).

Too often the focus is not on the cars, but on the business situation. The vehicles, done to the standard of -say- the Corvette, CTS, Malibu & Enclave, will all find their way, and their way to profitability just as all the other segment vehicles do. Where was Buick's rep before the Enclave, and look what that vehicle has done in the segment. Very comendable conquest rates there. It can be done and it has been done. It needs to keep being done.

Amputating without vision will only kill the corporation- by itself it fixes nothing.

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Properly executed brands could succeed (although Saab and Hummer have no place anymore), but GM doesn't have the money to pay to make every brand properly executed. The cash burn is over $1 billion a month, by 2010 they are out of cash. Meanwhile Toyota has $25 billion in cash, and yearly profits in the $15 billion range. GM can probably fund 4 great brands and attract new buyers, or they can keep funding 8 mediocre brands and lose sales.

If the luxury market is shrinking, then BMW Group must be doing something right, because they sold 746,000 cars worldwide in the first 6 months, which is a record for them. Mini is up, Rolls-Royce is up, and BMW is up. Mercedes and Audi sales are up this year also. Maybe just the American and Japanese luxury brands are shrinking.

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Properly executed brands could succeed (although Saab and Hummer have no place anymore), but GM doesn't have the money to pay to make every brand properly executed. The cash burn is over $1 billion a month, b